Title: Volume FOIA 025

Release Date: 2014-03-20

Text: 07468

Volume 25 of 111
SJAR ROT
FOIA Version

VERBAT IM 1

RECORD OF TRIAL2

(and accompanying papers)

of
(Name: Last, First, Middie initiai) (Sociai Security Number) (Rank)
Headquarters and
Headquarters Company,
United States Army Garrison U-S- Army FCDIJC Ml/er: VA 22211
(Unit/Command Name) (Branch of Service) (Station or Snip)
By
GENERAL COURT-MARTIAL
Convened by Commander

(Titie of Con vening Authority)

UNITED STATES ARMY MILITARY DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
(Unit/Command of Con vening Authority)

Tried at

Fort. Meade, MD on see below

(Piace or Piaces of Triai) (Date or Dates of Triai-9

Date or Dates of Trial:

23 February 2012, 15-16 March 2012, 24-26 April 2012, 6-8 June 2012, 25 June 2012,

16-19 July 2012, 28-30 August 2012, 2 October 2012, 12 October 2012, 17-18 October 2012,
7-8 November 2012, 27 November - 2 December 2012, 5-7 December 2012, 10-11 December 2012,
8-9 January 2013, 16 January 2013, 26 February - 1 March 2013, 8 March 2013,

10 April 2013, 7-8 May 2013, 21 May 2013, 3-5 June 2013, 10-12 June 2013, 17-18 June 2013,
25-28 June 2013, 1-2 July 2013, 8-10 July 2013, 15 July 2013, 18-19 July 2013,

25-26 July 2013, 28 July - 2 August 2013, 5-9 August 2013, 12-14 August 2013,

16 August 2013, and 19-21 August 2013.

1 insert ?verbatirri or ?surrimari'zeo? as appropriate. This form be used by the Army and Navy for verbatim records of triai

2 See inside back co ver for instructions as to preparation and arrangement.

DD FORM 490, MAY 2000 PREWOUS OBSOLETE Front Cover

07469

1

for the count, and then he passed by, and then -- and then everything

2

continued as normal.

3

Q.

Alright ----

4

A.

And then they called us back to parade rest after.

And,

5

then they announced, 'Count clear,' you know.

6

door and said, 'Count clear,' you know, or, 'Carry on.' So, I -- and,

7

then I proceeded to sit back down on the -- on the -- one the

8

mattress until the guard came by with my clothing and glasses.

9

Q.

Alright.

Over -- they open the

So, the time period that you are up front

10

standing naked and they announce the -- the fact that they are going

11

to do the count, how long are you there standing naked either at

12

parade rest or attention before the count is done?

13

A.

I was standing at parade rest for about 3 minutes.

I’m

14

standing at attention for a minute and a half for them to conduct

15

count, and then I was standing at parade rest for another 3 or 4

16

minutes until they completed the -- until they do the, 'All clear'

17

and the DBS calls 'Count Clear' over the radio.

18

Q.

And, when -- and you said once ----

19

A.

Or for their radios.

20
21
22
23

Because you can hear them echoing in

the cell.
Q.

You said once the count was clear then you returned back to

your rack and covered yourself up with your POI blanket?
A.

That is correct, sir.

3587

07470

1

Q.

Now, at the time that you are standing here naked, and you

2

are doing the count.

At any point does the DBS or anyone else then

3

say to you, 'Private Manning' or 'Detainee Manning, go cover yourself

4

with your blanket'?

5

A.

No, sir.

6

Q.

So, after they complete that count, and you are sitting on

7

your rack, with your blanket covering you.

8

before they give you your clothes?

9

A.

Only about a minute or 2.

How much time goes by

I mean it was fairly quickly

10

after that.

11

they brought me the razor.

12

along with my clothes for, to shave my face, and I put it back.

13

we continued on until the morning.

14
15

Q.

It was that they -- they waited for the count, because

Alright.

They set the razor on the feed tray for,
And,

So then the end of 3 March, what happened? Is

your underwear taken away from you at the end of that day?

16

A.

At the end of the night, yes, sir.

17

Q.

Okay, and again, what are you sleeping with in your bed at

18
19

At Taps.

that point?
A.

The two POI blankets from -- as a carryover from the

20

winter, and the mattress.

And, those are the only -- those are the

21

only articles in the cell that are not affixed to anything. They're

22

not -- apart from my person.

23

two blankets, sir.

So, it's my person, the mattress, and

3588

07471

1

Q.

And, on the morning of 4 March, what happens?

2

A.

On the next day?

3

Q.

Yes.

4

A.

they give -- they call -- they -- they -- actually my

5

clothing -- whenever they announced, 'Reveille, Reveille, Reveille,'

6

my clothing was in the feed tray, already handing over.

7

grabbed that.

8

Q.

9
10
11

So, I

I put it on and then I stood by for count.

So, on that morning when you were standing for count, were

you naked?
A.

For, 'Stand By for Count' and for 'Count' I was in the

clothing that I was authorized.

12

Q.

Okay.

And, at the end of 4 March, what happens?

13

A.

At the end of 4 March, I have -- I am returned -- it's the

14

same procedure.

I give them my clothing, and then I have the two

15

prevention of injury blankets, the mattress with the built in pillow,

16

and -- and my person.

17

Q.

On the morning of the 5th of March, what happens?

18

A.

The morning of the 5th of March, the third day that we --

19

that we did this, they called, 'Reveille, Reveille, Reveille'.

I

20

snap to parade rest.

21

that I had been given from the previous -- from the previous day,

22

from those days of before, was not to have a blanket over me or the

23

implied instructions.

The last instruction -- the last instruction

So, I stood at parade rest.

3589

And then they

07472

1

placed -- and then the guard ran into my cell and placed my clothing,

2

and then I put my clothing on, and then they called count as I -- and

3

I had -- I was -- I was just about dressed whenever they announced

4

count.

5

was at -- I was clothed by that time, sir.

6

So, I stood at attention and the DBS counted me.

Q.

Alright.

And then I

So, for when they -- they announced, 'Get ready

7

for the count,' you were standing naked, and then somebody you said

8

from the observation room ran out to give you your clothes?

9

A.

That is correct, sir. Yes.

10

Q.

The morning of the -- well at the evening of the 5th, I

11

imagine you gave back your underwear again?

12

A.

Yes, we continued on with the usual procedure.

I don't

13

know how many days it was before I was given the prevention of injury

14

blanket?

15

Q.

You mean the suicide smock?

16

A.

The smock.

Because, I had mentioned the fact that I had

17

to, by this time I had, you know, I had to stand at parade rest like

18

that.

19

But you know ----

20

I felt it was odd and maybe not -- I don’t know it was odd.

Q.

How many times, did you ever have any other occurrences

21

where you were standing at parade rest naked in the morning other

22

than the 3rd and the 5th?

3590

07473

1

A.

No.

They started to put my clothing into the feed tray at

2

-- about 5 or 10 minutes before they announced, 'Reveille, Reveille,

3

Reveille'.

4

'Reveille, Reveille, Reveille,' the clothing is there.

5

grab it, put it on, and put my glasses on.

6

going on, you know.

So, as soon as the lights come on, and they announce,
So, I can

So, I can see what is

7

Q.

And, at some point you say that you got the suicide smock?

8

A.

Yes.

9

I don't recall -- I think it was the 7th that I

actually got it.

So, on the morning of the 7th, it would have been,

10

I grabbed my clothing 10 minutes before, they would have put it there

11

before announcing reveille and lights on.

12

clothing.

13

Q.

And, then I grabbed my

I put it on that day, but that was before the smock.
Now, after this time period, was there ever a day in which

14

you did not have to surrender your underwear at night, before you

15

left to go to the JRCF?

16

A.

No, sir.

They would give me my -- they would give me the

17

smock, maybe, 5 minutes before they announced Taps.

18

Taps,' was what they would announce.

19

smock into the feed tray.

20

then I would put it on, and then I would undress with the smock sort

21

of over me as a blanket.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

---- sir.

'Taps. Taps.

They would stuff the -- the

I would receive it, and I would place --

And then I would wrap it up ----

3591

07474

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Alright.

Before we going into our next and

2

last section, if I could, Your Honor, could we have another 15-minute

3

break?

4

MJ:

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

No, your Honor.

6

MJ:

Court is in recess then until 20 minutes to 1900,

7

or 7 o'clock.

8

[The Article 39(a) Session recessed at 1827, 29 November 2012.]

9

[The Article 39(a) Session was called to order at 1849, 29 November

10
11

Any objection?

Alright.

2012.]
MJ:

Please be seated.

This Article 39(a) Session is called to

12

order.

Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court

13

last recessed are again present in court.

14

PRIVATE FIRST CLASS BRADLEY MANNING, U.S. Army, resumed his seat at

15

the witness stand, reminded he was still under oath, and testified as

16

follows:

17
18

DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. Coombs]:

19

Q.

PFC Manning, I again remind you that you're under oath.

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Alright.

I'd like to talk to you now about your

22

relationship with CW2 Barnes, the Brig OIC, who replaced Chief

23

Averhart.

3592

07475

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Do you recall, well she reports that your communication

3

with her changed over time, where you became more quiet and

4

withdrawn.

5

Is that your memory of the events?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And, why did you become more quiet and withdrawn?

8

A.

Well, when I first met Chief Warrant Officer 2 Barnes, I

9

That is correct, sir.

realized that she was replacing and, you know, she was replacing the

10

role of the of being the Brig OIC.

11

I knew sort of -- I knew generally, at that time -- I knew

12

specifically what her role in the process of my status was at that

13

time.

14

listen or look at things differently.

15

involved with making these determinations, these final

16

determinations.

17
18
19

So, and I knew that, I mean, and

So, I felt that -- I felt that perhaps, you know, she might

Q.

Look at the information

Did you have a conversation with were you talked about

stuff?
A.

Yes.

I remember being more forthcoming at the very

20

beginning with -- with Chief Warrant Officer 2 Barnes, because I -- I

21

mean I thought that she might -- she might look at things differently

22

so I want to -- I certainly wanted to engage her, and -- and make her

23

feel comfortable.

3593

07476

1
2

Q.

Now during your conversations, who else was present,

besides you and Chief Barnes?

3

A.

Well, I mean it might have been a counselor present, the

4

counselor, Master Sergeant Blenis or then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, or

5

Staff Sergeant Jordan played a small role, a smaller role as the

6

counselor.

7

being the NCOIC was the sort of, I mean it's more of an Army term,

8

but 'battle buddy' of the OIC, so.

9
10

Q.

But, I don't recall, and then Master Sergeant Papakie,

And, where were these conversations taking place between

you and Chief Barnes?

11

A.

The most significant one that I -- the most significant

12

ones that I remember, were when she first spoke with me.

13

actually pulled me out of my cell, and sat me down in the conference

14

area.

15

the new OIC and she wanted to talk to me, and get to sort of know me

16

better, sir.

17

Q.

18
19
20
21
22

She

We talked and she, you know, explained the fact that she was

And, did you have another conversation with her, where you

started asking her about what you needed to do to get off of POI?
A.

Yes, I mean, most, almost all of the early conversations

involved that questions, sir.
Q.

And, at any point during the conversation did there become

an issue of a conflict between you and Chief Barnes?

3594

07477

1
2

A.

I don't -- I don't recall when.

more towards the March timeframe.

I think it might have been

Early March.

3

Q.

And, what do you recall from that?

4

A.

I remember.

I started, after -- after some -- after being

5

there for a few weeks, you know I started to feel like this was just

6

a continuation of Chief Warrant Officer 4 Averhart just that, I mean

7

I felt like she was just -- she was looking at everything from the

8

same -- through the same lens and through just maybe with a slightly

9

different way of -- of carrying herself and explaining the same

10

things, I guess.

11

decisions.

The same justifications for her -- for her

12

Q.

Did you bring that up with her?

13

A.

Yes, I did.

And, I mean started to get frustrated with the

14

whole process and everything else, but, you know, and I spent most of

15

the time listening at first to her, and then whenever -- and I feel

16

like I, you know, she took me down, she sat me down.

17

sitting down in restraints, across from her on the table.

18

not really 'across', but you know, we had a corner of the table.

19

you know, we are not exactly far apart from each other.

20

she, you know, she allowed me then to speak my mind a little bit.

21

But, as I am speaking my mind, she stops me and she says, 'Oh, need I

22

remind you that I am a Chief Warrant Officer 2 in the Marines Corps

23

and that you are a junior enlisted detainee,' and you know, 'the rank

3595

So, I was
I mean,
So,

And then

07478

1

still applies here,' you know, and so that, you know, and I was, you

2

know, I was -- I was a little frustrated, but I am not trying to be

3

disrespectful, and I told her, you know 'I apologize that if I seem

4

like I am being disrespectful, but I'm just trying to get my,' you

5

know, my sense of things across to her, you know, to her.

6

you know, everything that -- whenever I would say something, she

7

would just say, oh, 'You are being disrespectful.'

8

not,' you know, 'adhering to the,' you know, 'the policy of being

9

respectful to me as a -- as a Chief Warrant Officer.'

And, but

And, 'You're

So, I just

10

felt sort of -- after that I just, I didn't feel like -- I felt like

11

anytime I spoke my mind, you know -- even if I was standing at

12

attention and being as, you know, saying, 'Ma'am' as many times as,

13

you know, I was still going to be disrespectful, sir.

14
15
16

Q.

Did you apologize for the perception of being

disrespectful?
A.

Yes, and as I just said, I apologized for, 'If it seems

17

like I am coming across as disrespectful, it's not.

It's not that I

18

am trying to be disrespectful, Ma'am.

19

convey my thoughts -- like to convey my opinions on things and,' you

20

know, there was a word -- I mean, I think it was 'absurd'.

21

I don't feel like it is inherently, you know, disrespectful word.

22

But that was my opinion of how I felt the conditions were at that

23

point.

I am just trying to -- to

You know,

And, I felt that the justification just seemed absurd to me.

3596

07479

1

And, she found that disrespectful.

2

find different language.

3

came out in that conversation.

4

Q.

And, I apologized, and I tried to

And, I think the second time that phrase

At any point, during the conversation, did she tell you

5

that you needed to be careful what you said because if it did go to

6

sentencing what you said could be used against you to hurt you?

7

A.

Yes.

And, that I took that as a threat, not as, you know,

8

I took that as a threat that, 'If you, you know, if you continue to -

9

- if you continue to question my authority,' this is what I am

10

reading from it, 'If you continue to question my authority, then,'

11

you know, 'we are going to make it look like you are being

12

disrespectful, and being belligerent to us.'

13

that, you know, I am dealing with a facility was -- that dealing with

14

the facility 'at level' or trying to communicate my thoughts and

15

opinions like that would be dangerous, at that point.

16

felt like it was -- it was -- that she was setting up a mine field at

17

that point.

That's how I felt.

And I realized then

I felt -- I

I mean ----

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

Sir.

20

Q.

So, from that point forward, did you feel that it was in

21
22
23

your best interest to speak with the staff at the Brig?
A.

I was less trustful or -- I don't know is that a word,

'trustful'?

I trusted the facility less, my trust went down for, you

3597

07480

1

know, same with Master Sergeant Blenis and Master Sergeant Papakie,

2

and you know, just, you know, I figured, you know, I have other

3

channels to go through now, and those are the ones that I am going to

4

utilize.

5

mean, if we had exhausted the remedies, and we hadn't even considered

6

a Writ of Extraordinary Relief to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals.

7
8

Q.

The ones that are -- the Article 138 complaint.

Alright.

And, I

Let's talk about an incident in March of 2011,

where you removed some people from your visitation list?

9

A.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

Do you remember how many people in general you removed?

11

A.

A large number of people.

I had put virtually everybody

12

that I could I think of that I had an address or a name for on my

13

visitation list when I arrived at the Facility, and I added a couple

14

more to it over time as people conveyed to me that they wanted to be

15

on the visitation list.

16

or, you know, and then it ended up that I just, you know, I don't

17

remember what the question was, sir.

18
19

Q.

A lot of people just didn't either show up

Did you remove a lot of people from your visitation list in

March?

20

A.

In March, yes, I did.

21

Q.

And, why?

22

A.

Well, it wasn't my intent to remove a lot of people.

23

I

intended on removing two people in particular, being my father and

3598

07481

1

Mr. David House at that particular time.

2

father’s.

3

friend, but an acquaintance of mine through another friend, that

4

started -- that was visiting me.

5

paperwork, they told me that I had to redo all the paperwork, because

6

a lot of it contained, you know, a lot of mistakes and was out of

7

date and so forth.

8

knew were actually going to come and visit or a part from the two

9

that I had -- that I had focused on removing, which were my father

10

A friend of mine and my

So, Mr. David House was a friend of mine, or not really a

And, whenever I was given the

So, I just condensed the list to people that I

and Mr. House.

11

Q.

Why did you remove your father from your visitation list?

12

A.

My father.

He had come by a few times.

I don't recall the

13

exact dates, and, you know, he had conveyed to me, you know, we just

14

talked, I mean we just talked, you know, in general a couple times

15

about things, and then -- and then I remember -- I don't remember

16

exactly what it was, but in early 2011, and he came by, and I think -

17

- I think it was in March, and he came by out of the blue, and it was

18

early 2011, but he did an interview later on that day with like, I

19

think it was PBS Frontline, or something like that.

20

had this conversation with him that day about, you know, how I am

21

glad that, you know, nobody from the family is really engaging and

22

doing interviews or press or anything like that, and you know, 'I am

23

glad that you aren't doing that,' and he said, 'Well,' you know, 'I

3599

And, I had just

07482

1

don't -- I'm not going to do that.'

So, you know, and he did that,

2

that same day.

3

course.

4

deal with my father in that sense, because I knew that he had -- I

5

had found out that he had just taken advantage of the opportunity to

6

fly, you know, to get free tickets to go somewhere.

7

that is how I felt, so.

But, it didn't -- we didn't know this until later of

But, whenever I found that out I just -- I didn't want to

Or, at least

8

Q.

So, you didn't want people going to the media?

9

A.

Particularly, my family and -- and then the other person

10

who I removed is Mr. David House because he had visited the facility

11

a few times and I had talked to him, and I was like, you know, 'I

12

don't want to stir up the press or anything, so please,' you know,

13

'just, if you are going to visit me, just realize, that we are at

14

this level of trust, where,' you know, 'I just want you to talk to

15

me, and if you want to be my friend,' you know, 'if you want to be my

16

friend,' cause we were acquaintances.

17

and we had met -- we had a mutual friend, Danny Clark was his --

18

Daniel Clark was his named.

19

Clark before, and -- and we, you know, we had these conversations,

20

and then I realized over time that he was -- that he was immediately

21

going to like blogs, like to a particular blogger, I forgot her name,

22

but she and then -- and then there were these discrepancies, like he

23

was saying things that I didn't necessarily feel that were helpful

We met in early, early 2010,

And, you know, he had visited with Mr.

3600

07483

1

for and especially since, you know, how we had just talked about,

2

again, how I didn't want him to like go straight to the media

3

immediately following -- immediately following, you know, visitation

4

with me at, you know, I just wanted -- I just wanted somebody to talk

5

to, you know, a friend.

6

member, not somebody to -- to take advantage of that, or use it as a

7

soap box.

To be a friend, you know, or a family

8

Q.

Alright.

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

When you are pulled out of your cell on that day, do you --

11
12

So, let's now talk about 20 April 2011.

do you know where you are going?
A.

On 20 -- on the morning of 20 April, everything had moved

13

as normal until about 0700 in the morning.

14

Sergeant Papakie came by, and said, 'Get your stuff ready,' you know,

15

'inventory your items and everything.

16

Leavenworth.'

17

Q.

And, so on that morning then what happened?

18

A.

Well, I didn't have much stuff in my cell to begin with but

I would say. And, Master

You are moving to

And, that was what he said, sir.

19

I was transferred -- they put me in full restraints.

Moved me to the

20

cell adjacent to me, and put me into the cell with all of my

21

belongings and everything.

22

restraints, and then I started to pack my things, and put it into a

23

container, like all of the soap dishes and, you know, uniforms and

Removed the res -- part of the

3601

07484

1

stuff.

2

of other, you know, stuff, and then -- and then they carried -- they

3

put me back in the restraints, and moved to the out-processing and in

4

processing area of the Brig.

5

container with all my belongings, sir.

6
7
8
9

And, then there was a trash bag, which I threw away a bunch

Q.

And, with -- and they carried the

And, then once you were out-processed from the Brig, where

did you go?
A.

I was out-processed -- I mean, well I was out-processed

into the -- the -- the in processing and out-processing area so it

10

took a little while, so they inventoried my things in that area, and

11

then I -- I remember that there was some Army officials particularly,

12

Mr. Stroebel, I believe was his name.

13

That's there from Provost Marshal General shirt, and he said that --

14

he explained to me the process of what was going on.

15

being transferred. And how that transfer was going to work.

16

know, how the flight and everything was going to work.

17

timing and everything was going to work.

18

the -- he essentially called himself, the 'OIC of the transfer,' the

19

Officer in Charge, sir.

20

where there was a lot of -- it was like a bunch of -- there were a

21

lot of Soldier -- Soldier uniforms, ACU's.

22

personnel.

23

mean there as a lot of weird movement and stuff, and I was

And, he had a PMG shirt.

That I was
You

How the

And, you know, that he was

And then we then moved out of the Facility,

But, they were CID

So they were chief warrant officer 4 et cetera.

3602

But, I

07485

1

transferred to the Quantico Airfield, in I think a Capital Police

2

vehicle.

3
4

Q.

Alright.

So, let's skip now to arriving at Fort

Leavenworth, okay?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

So, when you arrive at Fort -- Fort Leavenworth, what

7
8
9

happens when you start to in process at the JRCF?
A.

We brought -- They brought me to -- they brought me -- they

brought me into the intake area directly.

So, I didn't see the

10

outside of the Facility.

11

processing section of the Facility.

12

They removed -- I had some -- I had some kind of body armor on.

13

removed that, and then I had JRCF personnel told me to face the wall,

14

instead of parade rest.

15

they brought me through the in processing process, the intake process

16

at JRCF, sir.

17

Q.

18
19

They brought me into basically the in
They removed my restraints.
They

They told me what -- then I was -- and then

Now, as you started to go through the in processing

process, did they ever place restraints back on you?
A.

They did not.

And, that surprised me.

They took the --

20

They removed the restraints and they brought me -- and they strip

21

searched me, and then they showered me, and they did scars, marks,

22

tattoos.

23

they strip searched me -- I mean, after the strip search, they

I do it every time I come in and out.

3603

Same thing.

But,

07486

1

showered me.

2

process, no restraints.

3

walking freely with just the in processing NCO guiding me through the

4

process, sir.

5

Q.

6
7
8

Then, they brought me out, and throughout this entire
No.

I am standing, you know, I am sort of

How did it feel to be walking around out without

restraints?
A.

Awkward.

I -- I was waiting for them to put me in

restraints throughout the process, sir.

9

Q.

And when then didn't happen, what were you thinking?

10

A.

Well, I mean, I didn't think too much -- I was concerned

11

about it, but they ----

12

Q.

Why were you concerned?

13

A.

Well, I mean I am not used to being outside of anything

14

without restraints at that point in time.

You know, I was expecting

15

them, you know, to put me back on the status that I was before, you

16

know, just at a different facility, you know.

17

me to -- it was actually.

18

-- gave me -- issued me some items, and brought me to the cell.

19

closed the door.

20

But, I had like sheets, blankets.

And, then they brought

The NCO, Staff Sergeant, brought me to the

Then, the door closed, and then I was in the cell.

21

Q.

And what did you have in your cell at that point?

22

A.

It wasn't much that had been issued, because it's a --

23

And,

there's a -- it's a several day process when they do that.

3604

But, I

07487

1

had T-Shirt, shorts, a couple pairs of tan khaki-like uniform, and

2

sheets, blankets, pillow, and some toiletry items.

3

all in my cell, sir.

4
5
6

Q.

And, these were

And, what were you thinking at the point now you are now in

your cell and you see all these items?
A.

Oh, this is completely different from Quantico Base Brig.

7

I would -- I don't know -- I didn't know what to think of it, you

8

know, I thought -- I thought it was a huge upgrade, I mean, certainly

9

but, you know, there was this feeling of, the sense of, you know,

10

'Okay.

I know that they are going to put the hammer down on me, you

11

know, soon.'

12

Q.

Were you scared at this point?

13

A.

I wasn't scared at all.

I felt that coming, that sense, sir.

I mean I was just concerned, you

14

know, and I knew I had gotten use to -- I had gotten use to these

15

procedures, and just assumed that they would be reimplemented at some

16

point.

17

might have been a miscommunication of something, sir.

I thought somebody in the Chain of Command just -- there

18

Q.

So, then the next morning starts and what happens?

19

A.

The next morning comes, the door opens and I am lead out.

20

Well, nobody leads me out.

21

you know, 'Manning.

22

blood test.

They just go over the intercom and say,

You've got medical'.

I received -- I had a

I had my blood drawn, by a nurse outside of my cell,

3605

07488

1

sir.

There was no restraints or anything like that.

2

again, I wasn't use to that.

I thought,

3

Q.

And, you said how long was this indoctrination process?

4

A.

It was a couple days.

They brought I mean they later, in

5

that morning had took me out of the cell, and -- or they opened the

6

door again.

7

out, or get into -- get into my uniform.

8

line up with another pretrial and some other post trial detainees, or

9

inmates.

So, it just opens up.

And, then they tell me to come
Come out.

And, I go to a

They separated us and then we were led off to a classroom

10

for several hours.

11

issued more items and I would fill out more paperwork, and see more

12

people, and just -- this took about 6 or 7 days, sir.

13

Q.

We did this for a couple of days.

I would be

And, when you are in the classroom, is this like a

14

classroom, where I would expect there are desks and you are just

15

sitting at the desk?

16

A.

Well it's a -- they call it a classroom but it's a

17

conference room.

And, everybody is -- they have -- they have the

18

post-trial inmates that are being across us at one side of the table.

19

And, the -- they had the two other pre-trials, me, and pre-trial.

20

And, we sat together, and I was able to talk to him.

21

wasn't sure if I was supposed to -- if I was supposed to talk to him

22

or not, but, you know, I did.

23

was unusual, and being out and about and like not having all this --

I was -- I

And, you know, it was just weird.

3606

It

07489

1

not being having like four people move -- be involved in my movement,

2

sir.

3

Q.

Were you ever concerned at some point that what you were

4

doing was wrong, by being able -- by talking and being out of your

5

cell without restraints?

6

A.

Yes.

I thought somebody was going to fix what was wrong in

7

terms of my status, you know.

I thought that it was a -- again, I

8

kept on thinking, 'Oh. Yeah.

It's been a miscommunication,' and you

9

know, 'They are going to change my status.

Whenever the status

10

report -- or the status changes, you know, that's -- that's because

11

that was what I was used to -- was miscommunication that occurring

12

and then, them being fixed, so.

13

JRCF, sir.

14

Q.

I just expected the same at the

How long before you realized that, well I guess after the

15

indoctrination process, you were placed in, we heard, 'Medium

16

Custody'?

17

was your new life, now?

18

A.

How long for you did it take for you to realize that, that

It took -- It took a few days for me to realize that, you

19

know, this is my new home, and this is how things are going to be.

20

But, I didn't really get use to interacting with the other pre-trials

21

for several weeks.

22

probably about a month to a month and a half before I really felt

23

comfortable talking with people, and being out of my cell without

It actually might have, I would say it was

3607

07490

1

restraints, and everything else.

2

it, and it was different, and, you know, it was just, I mean, at

3

first I was almost uncomfortable, because I wasn't sure what to do,

4

or what I was allowed to do.

5

outside of the cell, I was doing something wrong.

6

stand at parade rest for, you know, for whatever.

7

and the guards looked at me like I was funny.

8

started to stop doing that.

9

Q.

I just wasn't -- I wasn't use to

I felt like -- I felt like if I was
So, I know I just
And, you know,

And then I -- so, I

Now, as you started to get adjusted to your new life at the

10

JRCF, did -- did you ever try to harm yourself now that you were in

11

at 'Medium Custody In'?

12

A.

No, sir.

13

Q.

Did you ever try to escape?

14

A.

No, sir.

15

Q.

Did there come a time that you were involved with another

16
17

detainee in a physical dispute?
A.

Another pretrial inmate, yes.

18

altercation in December of 2011.

19

Article 32, yes.

There was a -- There was an

That was about a week before the

20

Q.

And, what happened?

21

A.

You know, I mean I had been there for a while.

We actually

22

moved housing units into, it was Kilo Housing Unit or a housing unit

23

where pre-trials were held in a housing unit, separate from everybody

3608

07491

1

else.

But, you know, so I was in the cell.

I was in my cell.

2

then it was like the afternoon.

3

I was just -- was mostly just sleeping, cause it's a Saturday and I

4

felt like sleeping that afternoon.

5

out, and it was time for chow.

6

frisk searched.

7

-- that this particular inmate was -- was -- sort of, just making fun

8

of me, and attacking me, and just sort of vary I had -- I am not use

9

-- I am not use to this sort of -- and I had just woken up -- and I

It was a Saturday.

And,

So, I, you know,

Just to take a nap.

And, I got

So, I -- I stood by for chow, to get

And, then I remember -- I remember the feeling that

10

was sort of drowsy as well.

11

he was starting to sort of attack me verbally. And, you know, and I

12

tried to ignore it, because this is something -- this is not unusual,

13

but the intensity and the intensity of this.

14

- I've never felt like -- I never felt this point this sense of

15

verbal attack -- and then verbal attack, and then me being, you know,

16

this sense, you know, being made fun of for not responding to it,

17

sir.

18

Q.

19

into trouble?

20

A.

So, I mean, he started to -- I felt like

And, I have never had -

You apparently did respond to it in a way in which you got

Yes.

Yes, sir.

I did.

I -- I don't know what was said.

21

He said this particular -- I felt that this particular inmate said

22

directly something to me.

23

moved in and I -- and I went -- and I -- and I tried to punch him.

And, I -- I responded.

3609

I mean, I just
I

07492

1

mean I guess I tried to go for the face, but I ended up hitting the

2

shoulder he’s taller, sir.

3

Q.

And, then after that were you punished?

4

A.

Well, I mean I was removed from the housing unit at that

5

point.

6

investigation period.

7

- I transferred here for the Article 32.

8

the tension from the Article 32 that week as well.

9

Article 32.

10

I was -- we went our separate ways, and there was an
And, then there was a break, because we went Now, there was a sense of
The upcoming

And, then it resumed as soon as I got back in January,

sir.

11

Q.

Did you successfully complete your punishment?

12

A.

I was given, 15 days of disciplinary segregation.

And, 14

13

days of extra duty.

14

duty the exact date, that I was transferred for the arraignment.

15

yes, I completed -- I completed everything involved with that.

16
17

Q.

And, I completed my -- the last day of extra

And, since that incident, have you ever had any difficulty

or problems at the JRCF?

18

A.

No, sir.

19

Q.

And, finally.

20

When you left were seeing -- when you left

Quantico, you were seeing a forensic psychiatrist on a weekly basis.

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

When you got to the JRCF did you continue to see other

23

So,

forensic psychiatrists?

3610

07493

1

A.

Not a psychiatrist.

There was a psychologist, who worked

2

primarily at the Disciplinary Barracks, and she was there for my in

3

processing as well.

4

through the in processing thing.

5

her I wasn't comfortable with, you know, and

6

the JRCF full time.

7

the street.

8

as well, but, you know, I talked to her.

9

-- once a -- once a month or so, sir.

10
11
12

Q.

Well, she came in after I was being -- going
And, introduced herself, and I told
I -- she didn’t work at

She worked at the Disciplinary Barracks across

And so, she, you know, and it was a brand new facility
I talked to her on -- on a

And, at this -- did there come a time where you no longer

were being seen by any mental health professionals?
A.

Yes, sir.

I haven't seen a clinical, in a clinical sense

13

a, because I don't know if -- if I seeing Doctor Galloway on a

14

clinical sense.

15

'boss' unquote, you know, to talk to me.

16

out for these appointments.

17

don't mind speaking to -- I didn't mind speaking to her, sir.

18

don't know if you could consider that clinical.

19

that in -- I didn't see her as being in a clinical role.

20

if she was, then that ended early this -- at the beginning of the

21

year, sir.

She said that she had been tasked by her, quote

22

Q.

In this year?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

And so, I would be pulled

And, I would go speak to her.

But, I

I -- I didn't see

Right before the arraignment, sir.

3611

And, I

But, if --

07494

1

Q.

Okay.

Thank you, PFC Manning.

2

A.

Yes, Sir.

3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor.

The United States recommends that we

4

recess for the night.

5

need to coordinate on scheduling, and then possibly have an 802

6

without scheduling to reconvene tomorrow morning at 0930.

7

MJ:

Alright.

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9

MJ:

Alright.

The defense and the United States we still

Any objection?
No objection, your Honor.

That seems like a good point to do that.

10

get a start time for tomorrow.

11

is that correct?

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

MJ:

14

WIT: Yes, ma'am.

15

PFC Manning, you can go ahead and go back to your seat.

[The accused resumed his seat at defense table.]
MJ:

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

19

MJ:

21
22
23

I assume you don't want to reconvene

Not tonight.

16

20

Let's

0930 like we did today?

Alright.

Yes, Ma'am.
Yes, Ma'am.

So, we will recess the Court for the evening then

and be ready to start at 0930 tomorrow morning.
Court is in recess.
[The Article 39(a) Session recessed at 1919, 29 November 2012.]
[END OF PAGE]

3612

07495

1

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 0958, 30 November

2

2012.]

3

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

4

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

5

again present in court.

6

have been substituted for the record and Mr. Coombs?

7
8
9
10

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Major Fein, have there been some photos that

Yes, there have, Your Honor.

They are

marked as Appellate Exhibit 425.
MJ:

All right.

And that would be photographs for the depiction

of the cell that was on the floor yesterday.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

12

MJ:

I believe it is gone.

That’s correct, Your Honor.

And does either side have any objection to substitutions of

13

photographs for the record?

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

16

MJ:

No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.

And for the record, counsel and I met yesterday in an

17

R.C.M. 802 Conference.

Once again that’s a conference where I talk

18

about scheduling and logistic issues in the case with counsel and we

19

have made some adjustments to the trial calendar.

20

to go all the way through Sunday this week with these witnesses for

21

the Article 13 Motion.

22

all the witnesses by Sunday, so we have amended the court calendar.

23

Originally the case was next set to go from the 10th through the 14th

We had scheduled

It appears we will not be able to get through

3613

07496

1

of December.

2

going the 5th, 6th, and 7th of December.

3

Thursday, and Friday.

4

trial calendar based on that change but counsel and I are going to

5

meet at some point either tonight or later on this weekend to

6

finalize the remainder of the trial calendar but there will be some

7

changes.

8

Is that correct?

9

We have cancelled that session.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

11

MJ:

And we will make further adjustments to the

Yes, Your Honor.

Yes, Your Honor.

Is there anything else we need to address before we

continue with the witnesses?

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

15

MJ:

16

ACC: Yes, Your Honor.

17

That’s next Wednesday,

And that change was made with the consent of both sides.

10

12

Instead we will be

All right.

No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.
PFC Manning, I believe you were on the stand.

[END OF PAGE]

18
19
20
21

3614

07497

1

PRIVATE FIRST CLASS BRADLEY MANNING, U.S. Army, the accused, resumed

2

his seat at the witness stand, was reminded he was still under oath,

3

and testified as follows:

4
5
6

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:
Q.

Private First Class Manning, other than the one time I was

7

in front of you briefing the case, we’ve actually never spoken before

8

today, correct?

9

A.

You mean in October of 2011, yes, sir.

10

Q.

Yes, November of 2011?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

So, all the information I have is based off of either

13

witness testimony, discovery as you referenced yesterday, recordings

14

and only that information.

Not anything from you?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

What I would like to focus your attention on, Private First

17

Class Manning, is your cell as you walked through yesterday and

18

comparing that to the disciplinary cells that you were not ever in at

19

Quantico, at least to the best of the prosecution’s knowledge.

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

You were in a standard cell under POI and MAX custody,

22
23

correct?
A.

For special quarters?

3615

07498

1

Q.

Yes.

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And you had three walls, a toilet, a sink, a rack, and the

4

bars in front?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And you are in a cell that had a skylight in the hallway?

7

A.

Further down the hallway, yes, sir.

8

Q.

And a wall of windows that we saw in the video yesterday?

9

A.

There were windows at the end of the hall, yes, sir.

10

Q.

And natural light could come into the windows but not

11

necessarily directly through your bars right in front of your cell?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

You did not have a steel door directly in front of you?

14

A.

No, sir.

15

Q.

You didn’t have a steal door in front of the bars that

16

were----

17

A.

No, sir.

18

Q.

You did not live in the quarters that only had a small

19

window or hatch that was available at Quantico?

20

A.

Correct, sir.

21

Q.

And while at Quantico you lived where all the other

22

pretrial detainees lived?

3616

07499

1

A.

For a significant portion, yes, sir.

I believe the first

2

couple of weeks I was there they still had a housing unit or another

3

area where they had people, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

A bay.

6

Q.

But when you for instance left to do rec call or go visit

7

the counselor at a defense attorney meeting you walked by, at times,

8

other cells and they were the same as yours?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

Now, let’s talk about the smock that you showed--or you

11

demonstrated for the court yesterday.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Yesterday you testified that, at one point, you were stuck

14

I your smock and Corporal Sanders had to assist you with getting your

15

arms out.

16

A.

Yes, that’s true.

17

Q.

And that incident occurred on or about 13 March 2011?

18

A.

I don’t recall the date but it was mid-March, yes, sir.

19

Q.

And that night that your arms got stuck you decided to

20
21

sleep with your arms inside the smock?
A.

I believe I got into that position as I was falling asleep,

22

so I might have naturally just done that not really aware of, you

23

know, doing it purposefully, sir.

3617

07500

1

Q.

But you were told not to put your arms inside the smock?

2

A.

Yes, sir, definitely.

3

Q.

And you had a blanket to cover up your arms if they got

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Now, to go prior to showing up at Quantico, I’d like to

4

7

cold?

focus your attention on Kuwait----

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

----while you were there.

10

While in Kuwait you admitted to

being suicidal?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

You then made two nooses and scavenged for metal objects to

13

cause harm to yourself?

14

A.

I don’t know about the metal objects and I don’t know about

15

two nooses.

16

of, sir.

17

sir.

18
19

Q.

I certainly made one--I certainly made one that I know

I--the sheet noose, in particular, is the one I remember,

Okay.

And when speaking to your psychiatrist down range,

Captain Richardson----

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

----about your suicidal ideations, you described yourself

22

as being patient?

3618

07501

1

A.

I’m not sure.

I just remember being patient about wanting

2

to get off the suicide risk.

I don’t know if there was a

3

misinterpretation or not, but I can see how it might have been

4

construed that way or misunderstood that way, sir.

5

Q.

And then—well, you arrived in Quantico on 29 July 2010?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And when you arrived in your in-processing form, you stated

8

to the question, “Have you ever considered suicide?”

9

box, “Yes”.

10

A.

You checked the

I was told I had to by--I mean, they didn’t tell me I had

11

to, they said--as I was going through I have--I had the guards

12

assisting me--I mean, I was in restraints so I couldn’t complete the

13

paperwork without them and I think they were sort of observing

14

whatever I wrote and everything else.

15

Hanks, later Sergeant Hanks instructed me that I had to answer in a

16

particular--in that particular way and I did not--I mean, I did do

17

that.

But Corporal--then Corporal

I could have not done that.

18

Q.

But he didn’t order you to say yes or no in the check box?

19

A.

Correct, sir, he just asked the question, you know, “You

20

are on suicide risk--or you were on suicide risk in Kuwait shouldn’t

21

you,” I mean, it was more of an implied sort of question rather than

22

an order, sir.

3619

07502

1
2

Q.

So, for the question, “Have you ever considered suicide?”

You checked the box yes?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And then, on that same form, there is a space where you can

5

fill in any comments?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And you, in your handwriting, wrote, “Always planning and

8
9

never acting”?
A.

Yes, I was told that if I checked the box then I had to put

10

something down in that particular location.

11

applicable,” I could have put something like that but that is what I

12

wrote down, yes, sir.

13

Q.

I could have put “non-

And now just to speak about the two nooses.

What has been

14

marked as--well photo substitutions--as Appellate Exhibit 416, Your

15

Honor.

Do you recognize this sheet?

16

A.

I do, sir.

17

Q.

You do?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Is this the sheet that you made the noose out of?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Your Honor, what has been marked as Appellate Exhibit 417.

22

Private First Class Manning, do you recognize these sandbag ties?

3620

07503

1
2

A.

Yes, sir.

Those were found--I was told that those were

found in my cell and yes, they are sandbag ties, sir.

3

Q.

And the noose that you made out of these sandbag ties?

4

A.

I don’t recall constructing a noose out of them, but they

5
6
7
8
9
10

were found in my cell.
Q.

Okay.

What about the two metal objects that were also

collected by CID at the same time?
A.

Those were found in my--they were found near my cell or

outside of my cell I believe, sir.
Q.

Okay.

Now, to focus your time or continue focusing your

11

time at the beginning--your time at Quantico--when asked by Gunny

12

Blenis, at the beginning, when you started at Quantico, you told him

13

that you had made the noose out of sandbag ties?

14

A.

No, sir, I told him that sandbags--that I had--that it had

15

been conveyed to me that sandbag ties were found in my cell at a

16

particular moment and that I didn’t dispute that.

17
18

Q.

Okay, but you also did--well, did you tell him about the

bed sheet noose?

19

A.

I did, sir.

20

Q.

Now, this is--just to be clear, I’m talking about when you

21

first arrived in your first counseling session?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

Not in subsequent?

3621

07504

1

A.

End of July 2010.

2

Q.

Yes.

3

A.

That’s what I’m talking about, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

5
6

And you did or did not tell him about the two metal

objects that were also found?
A.

7

I did not, sir.
Q.

So, what I would like to do now is kind of the same

8

line of questioning about your suicidal ideations, focusing on 7

9

January 2011.

As you probably remember yesterday you testified that

10

that’s when you finally decided to submit a chit, a DD Form 510,

11

about your POI status?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And that was on 7 January.

14

That date is when you decided

to ask for a review of your classification status?

15

A.

To the commander, yes, sir.

16

Q.

And could you describe it for the court the process of how

17
18

you submit that chit to the commander?
A.

I requested for a DD Form 510, which is the--the Marine

19

Corps calls their forms chits so they refer to it as a 510 chit.

20

then I requested for--and I had to do this during correspondence

21

time, sir, so was given a pen and I filled out the necessary

22

portions.

And

I actually requested two and I kept--I filled out one and

3622

07505

1

I filled out another and labeled it as copy and initialed that one

2

which I have, sir.

3
4
5

Q.

And then once you fill out the document what do you

physically do with it?
A.

I--you can either--You have the option of either giving it

6

to the guard or requesting for the card to actually be--especially

7

for the ones that were directly for the commander, you had a cart in

8

which there were two mail boxes one for I think the Inspector General

9

and one for the commander and I placed the one for the commander--or

10

I asked Lance Corporal Bell to put it into the mailbox--the box--it’s

11

sort of like an old ballot box or drop box and I--he placed it in

12

there--or I reached through the feed tray and put it in there, sir.

13

Q.

So, like this old ballot box, it had a lock on it?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

So the guards can’t just open it and take out anything that

16

is submitted by a detainee?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

So it is for the IG and for the Brig CO?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And so you submitted that, though, on 21 January or on 7

21

January?

22

A.

On 7 January and I filled out two.

23

Q.

Okay.

3623

07506

1

A.

So, I filled out one for my own edification because I

2

placed--I put in a 510 chit in mid-December and I don’t know if that

3

ever got anywhere or if it got lost or anything like that, sir.

4

Q.

So, the one in----

5

A.

But it wasn’t----

6

Q.

----December, was that in the box or did you give that to

7
8
9
10
11

the guard?
A.

I gave that to just the guard.

I did not put it in the

box, sir.
Q.

So that was a chit that you could fill out for anyone in

the facility, but not the one specifically designed for the Brig CO?

12

A.

Correct, sir.

13

Q.

So the one that you filled out on 7 January and dated 7

14

January on the top-right of the form, that one you submitted when--it

15

went into the box, the locked box?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

17

Q.

When was that?

18

A.

That was 7 January, sir, of 2011.

19

Q.

Thank you.

20

And was that chit that you submitted to Chief

Averhart in the locked box, was that responded to?

21

A.

Not immediately, sir.

22

Q.

Okay.

When was it responded to?

3624

07507

1

A.

It might have been sometime, maybe a week--maybe 2 weeks

2

later.

I had brought it up with my chain of command--my company

3

commander and then he looked into it.

4

was my company commander, sir.

It was Captain Casamatta that

5

Q.

And what did you request in that chit?

6

A.

I requested--I don’t remember--I don’t recall exactly what

7

I was requesting for, but, essentially, I outlined the sections from

8

the brig order that I looked at--that I was referencing and I

9

requested for a classification and assignment board or to at least to

10

attend one or have one in regards to my prevention of injury status,

11

sir.

12

Q.

And on 21 January you went before the board?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

So, on 21 January 2011, you appeared before the C&A Board?

15

A.

Yes, sir, I physically attended that, yes.

16

Q.

And when you attended there, you were asked why you had

17

made the statement, “Always planning and never acting”?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And you answered, then, that that statement, when you made

20

it originally, may have been false?

21

A.

Yes, yes, sir.

22

Q.

And then another member of the board--there’s three members

23

of the board?

3625

07508

1

A.

There were three in attendance:

there was Gunnery Sergeant

2

Blenis--then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis--Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, and

3

another, I don’t remember, he was a staff sergeant, I don’t recall

4

his name.

5

Q.

So then another member of the board said, “If that may have

6

been false, then should we believe--why should we believe whether you

7

are going to do harm to yourself today or not”?

8

A.

Yes, yes, sir.

9

Q.

And you answered yes to that?

10

A.

I was--it was a lot more of a--it wasn’t just a yes, sir,

11

it was more of a lengthy sort of, you know, philosophical--it was a

12

philosophical question, so I took that--I accepted that as a

13

philosophical question and gave them sort of--it was more general

14

answer.

15

Q.

But what was the, I guess, the intellectual answer?

16

A.

I mean, it was a lot--I mean there’s a lot of things in

It wasn’t--it was more intellectual answer, yes.

17

regards to, you know, whether something is false or something is

18

true.

19

you know, without evidence.

20

that, sir.

21
22
23

Humans are fallible and, you know, it’s hard to gauge things,

Q.

So that--I was just pretty broad with

Well, without evidence--but then again on the form that

they were referencing at the time and you all were discussing---A.

Yes, sir.

3626

07509

1
2

Q.

----was what you had written which was always in your

handwriting, “Always planning, never acting”?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

But then you said you didn’t really mean that?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And so this intellectual conversation that you were, I

7

guess, in your own eyes that you were finally getting at the brig was

8

about whether you meant it then or you were being truthful today

9

that, on 21 January, that you’re not suicidal?

10

A.

I thought it was more about at that particular time and I

11

didn’t realize that they were trying to get at what I was thinking at

12

that particular moment, sir.

13

Q.

Okay.

And then after that the third member of the board

14

actually reiterated that--and asked you, “Do you understand the

15

question?” just to make sure you--there was no confusion and you

16

answered yes?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

So, on 21 January 2011, when you went before the board the

19

first time, when asked, you still hadn’t provided the brig officials

20

a clear answer of what you meant when you said, “Always planning,

21

never acting”?

22
23

A.

I did say that it might have been sort of a--it was a

sarcastic answer given, you know, just on a whim because I knew I was

3627

07510

1

going to be placed on suicide risk status.

2

been told that and because I was placed on it in Kuwait so it didn’t

3

really make a difference what answer I gave because, I mean, I was

4

going to be placed on the same status, sir.

5

Q.

I mean, that was--I had

That was my----

But, if that was the reason, then why would you ask then to

6

go before the board?

Because this was--you had said this was your

7

first chance that you thought about--I mean, this is what you said

8

yesterday--to get before the board, to tell them your side of the

9

story about why you shouldn’t be on POI?

10

A.

Right.

11

Q.

But then when given the opportunity you didn’t--you didn’t

12
13

take it?
A.

I did.

As far as I understood the process I did.

I told

14

them that today, you know, in 2000--in January of 2011--the end of

15

January 2011, I’m not suicidal, I’m not trying to harm myself or

16

anything like that.

17

of--and one of the things--I think that was the issue I was having

18

was I didn’t understand the relevance of the July 2009/2010 form

19

because it was so far back.

20

been written down, sir.

21

Q.

I’m, you know--I didn’t understand the relevance

I had actually forgot that that had even

So, on 21 January, you are saying, today--and you actually

22

said it, yesterday, too, at that board, your first chance to really

23

confront these issue----

3628

07511

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

----that--well, your thought of confronting these issues---

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

----you had forgotten what you had done?

6

A.

I had forgotten about that form, yes.

3

7
8
9
10
11

-

I’d forgotten about

the intake form.
Q.

Okay.

Are you familiar with when you and your defense

counsel submitted the 138 complaint?
A.

No, sir, I know that I put--I know that--I think I told the

brig staff about it before it was filed, sir.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

So--because I knew we would be putting it together but I

14
15
16

just didn’t know when Mr. Coombs had officially filed it, sir.
Q.

Okay.

So, when he officially filed it on 19 January, 2

days before the board----

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

----that laid out everything we’ve been talking about

19

including the original form classification----

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

You didn’t know--you didn’t remember until 21 January that

22
23

that’s what you wrote on the form?
A.

I had completely forgotten about that, yes, sir.

3629

07512

1
2

Q.

So, even though on 18 January, when the video we watched

yesterday was filmed----

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

----and you had the discussion with Chief Blenis about

5

that, you didn’t remember 3 days later at the C&A Board?

6

A.

Wasn’t the C&A Board before that incident, sir?

7

Q.

No, the C&A Board was on 21 January.

8

The video we watched

yesterday was filmed on 18 January.

9

A.

Okay, sir.

10

Q.

And you had that discussion on that video that we watched

11

yesterday of Chief Blenis about why it is you had wrote on the form,

12

why it is you made the nooses, why there’s inconsistencies there, and

13

you both had a dialogue back and forth.

14

A.

Correct, sir.

15

Q.

So, then when you had the chance to go before the board on

16

21 January, you didn’t take that opportunity to even explain to the

17

three-board panel why it was you made that decision to write that

18

down on the form?

19
20

A.

I did.

I mean, well, whenever I was asked about it I did,

at least I felt I did, sir.

21

Q.

But you just said you didn’t remember writing that?

22

A.

I had forgotten about that form, yes, sir.

23

Q.

So, in that 3-day period you forgot about that?

3630

07513

1

A.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

What I would like to now kind of direct your attention to

3

is the different avenues that you had to lodge complaints or seek

4

redress.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

We just spoke about one the Article 138 process.

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Did you know about the 138 process before being, I guess

9
10

detained in pretrial confinement?
A.

I had seen an ASK.com article about it in 2009, but I had

11

never really gotten into the depth of it.

12

existed, sir, but not really in what exact context to use it.

13
14

Q.

So, I knew that it

I assume also it’s not something that is normally talked

about every day, the 138 process?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

So, you did submit through counsel on 19 January an Article

17

138 complaint?

18

A.

In January, yes, yes, sir.

19

Q.

And yesterday you testified about the M.R.E. 305(g)

20

reevaluation of your pretrial confinement status to the--to your UCMJ

21

command you submitted on 13 January of 2011?

22

A.

Yes, the Special Court-Martial Convening Authority.

23

Q.

To Colonel Coffman?

3631

07514

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

You are also aware that Mr. Coombs on your behalf submitted

3

to Chief Averhart directly a memo requesting reevaluation on 5

4

January 2011?

5

A.

On 5 January?

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

I had put in--I had put in the 510 not realizing that that

8

had occurred.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

----I thought I was doing that, sir.

11

Q.

I’m actually talking about something completely different.

12

A.

Okay.

13

Q.

So, you did at least from the documentation discovery did

14

file the 510.

15

that your defense counsel on your behalf submitted directly to Chief

16

Averhart a memo request.

I don’t recall that one, sir.

So----

But I’m just talking about separately on 5 January

17

A.

Okay.

Yes, sir.

I did not--I do not recall that.

18

Q.

Okay.

So, these three more formal requests were submitted

19

on your behalf and then like you just talked about the fourth way is

20

you had the chit and DD 510 process either informally with a guard or

21

formally through the lock box?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

3632

07515

1
2

Q.

But you also had other avenues to seek redress directly,

didn’t you?

You did?

3

A.

I mean, I can verbally ask is one.

4

Q.

Well, Colonel Oltman visited you periodically?

5

A.

A colonel did, a Marine colonel, I don’t know--they came

6

through periodically, sir, I don’t--they really didn’t introduce

7

themselves very deeply, sir.

8

Q.

Plus I don’t even think they wear nametags, do they?

9

A.

They do but I don’t--I look at the rank first before I look

10
11
12

at anything else.
Q.

Sure, that makes sense.

But periodically Marine colonels

or a colonel--multiple colonels would come through?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And have a discussion with you?

15

A.

I wouldn’t--well, they would come by and I would see them

16
17
18

and they would see me, sir.
Q.

Okay.

You had other avenues of using privileged

communication?

19

A.

Yes, clergy.

20

Q.

Could we start there first?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

Did the chaplain visit you?

23

A.

I did have a chaplain that visited me, yes, sir.

3633

07516

1
2

Q.
visit you?

3
4

A.

No, sir, we had a chaplain that came by weekly.

If not

weekly then at least once or a few times a month, sir.

5
6

Did you make any special requests to have certain chaplains

Q.

And you mentioned the IG.

You know you had a locked box

that you could submit issues to the Inspector General?

7

A.

I did.

I--I--There was also--I am not familiar with how

8

the Navy system works but here was a request mast system as well, but

9

I--I--for both of those the Inspector General and the request mast,

10

for the Marine Corps I was not familiar with how that process worked,

11

sir.

12
13

Q.

But when the cart would roll by there was a box that you

could submit papers in at least----

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

----maybe a form maybe not, but something in a locked box

16

to get to the IG?

17

A.

Correct, sir.

18

Q.

Also members of your command, they visited you almost every

20

A.

Yes, at least once every 2 weeks, sir.

21

Q.

Okay.

19

22

week?

We’ll talk about that in a little bit.

So, you had

a lot of options to exercise as far as getting redress or lodging any

3634

07517

1

forms of complaints about your treatment, status, or anything else

2

going on?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

But you never asked the chaplain to help you with anything?

5

A.

No, I--I mentioned about the Prevention of Injury pretty

6
7
8
9

common--pretty frequently with him, sir.
Q.

Did you ever ask a chaplain to assist you with

understanding why or to change your status?
A.

I talked to him about it.

I didn’t necessarily make a

10

formal request through him but I mentioned the fact that I really

11

wanted to get off of the status and that’s--I was surprised that I

12

was still on it and I would talk to him because he was somebody we

13

had--I could--it was another person I could talk to on a sort of an

14

at-level-basis, sir.

15

and I didn’t want to get in the way of him.

16

person so I don’t need prayers or anything but I would still talk to

17

him, sir.

18
19
20

Q.

But he had other--He didn’t have a lot of time
I’m not a religious

What do you mean by ad--you just said it today and you said

it many times yesterday, what do you mean by at-level-basis?
A.

There is a moment, I mean as a junior enlisted person that

21

I’ve kind of gauged at to where you can speak to somebody that is of

22

a higher rank then you, you know, where you’re--the rank is sort of

23

set aside for a moment so that way you can have a person-to-person

3635

07518

1

conversation as opposed to a subordinate and a superior conversation,

2

sir.

3

Q.

Okay.

Is it the rank being set aside or is it really just

4

being completely relaxed and having this kind of intellectual

5

conversation?

6

A.

It’s--I would say it’s both, sir, because it doesn’t--you

7

really do have to at that moment, in my mind, sort of set aside the

8

fact that it’s a subordinate and superior relationship.

9
10
11

Q.

Okay.

And what was the chaplain’s name that you said you

talked all the time to about your POI status?
A.

I don’t recall his name.

I feel--I gave it to--I put his

12

name--I remembered that I told Captain Casamatta his name whenever we

13

were putting it on the forms but I don’t recall his name, but I

14

still----

15

Q.

Is it a male chaplain?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And Navy--Marines don’t have chaplains?

18

A.

I guess he was--He wore the Marine Corps uniform.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

He was a----

21

Q.

It was an ACU uniform?

22

A.

MARCPAT, sir.

It was----

3636

07519

1
2

Q.

Okay.

Did you ever file anything into the IG slot that was

locked and would go right to the IG?

3

A.

No, sir.

4

Q.

Earlier you spoke about a chit, DD Form 510s?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

You filed six chits while you were at Quantico, correct?

7

A.

I think I filed more but some--they had a tendency--some of

8

the ones that were given just directly to the guards had a tendency

9

of going missing.

10
11
12
13
14
15

Q.

Well, I think you are right because first off because I

can’t count there are nine.
A.

So, at least nine?

I would say at least--it would have to be at least--at

least a dozen, sir.
Q.

Okay.

And you knew about this chit, DD Form 510 process

from the day you inprocessed?

16

A.

It was from the day I inprocessed at Kuwait.

17

Q.

Oh, you knew about it in Kuwait?

18

A.

Yes, all military correctional facilities utilize the DD

19

Form 510 system or a modification of that form.

20

Q.

What are they called at the JRCF?

21

A.

They modify it so they’re Military Correctional Complex 510

22

forms, so it is a modified DD Form 510.

3637

They just removed some of

07520

1

the administrative things for the facility name and things like that,

2

sir.

3
4

Q.

Do they have common name other than like chit that they use

or do they just call it a 510?

5

A.

It’s called 510, sir.

6

Q.

That makes more sense.

7

these.

I’d like to just go through some of

If you don’t remember please let me know.

8

A.

Of course.

9

Q.

And I will help refresh your memory.

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

The one that you dated on the 7th of January 2011, Chief

12

Warrant Officer 4 Averhart----

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

----that was the one you put into the locked box for him?

15

A.

Correct, sir, and I--I made a duplicate for my own

16

purposes, sir.

17

Q.

And you wrote on there, request lifting--or subject or

18

purpose of the interview, now they use the term interview, is it

19

really--does it always necessarily mean interview, like one-on-one

20

interview?

21

A.

No, it’s just the way the form is set up, sir.

22

Q.

So, what is--what are the different ways you can use this

23

form?

3638

07521

1

A.

You can use it just to request to speak to somebody.

You

2

can sometimes use it just to--you can put your information--put just

3

your request in general, I mean without having to see anybody.

4

can--basically it is the semi-formal way of communicating with the

5

staff at a correctional facility military, sir.

6

Q.

Okay.

You

So, on this one dated 7 January you wrote, “Request

7

lifting of Prevention of Injury, or POI status, and request

8

classification review including written justification of MAX custody

9

status”.

And then you cited the different rules within the

10

regulations?

11

A.

I only had access to the brig order at that time, sir.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

On 4 January, so one submitted three days beforehand you

15

So the rules and regulations of the brig?

did one requesting books from your aunt?

16

A.

4 January?

17

Q.

Yes.

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Of 2011?

20

A.

2011, yes, I think so.

21

Q.

Specifically even the books you were asking for you talked

22

about yesterday, Peoples History of the United States, A Journey of

23

My Political Life, Good Soldiers David Finkel.

3639

07522

1

A.

Uh-huh.

2

Q.

So you requested that.

3

A.

Some of them.

Did you get those books?

I put--I put a broad list of them.

I

4

didn’t--They weren’t necessarily books that I was going to receive.

5

Just a--I put sort of a shotgun approach of which ones my aunt was

6

going to send me, sir.

7

Q.

By shotgun approach you mean just everything you could

8

think of she will send and hopefully some of the--some of them would

9

show up?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And when they showed up, did you get those books by the

13

A.

Not immediately, but I did eventually get them, yes, sir.

14

Q.

So, they approved you getting the books and you received

A.

Yes, sir.

12

15
16
17
18

brig?

them?
They have a process for that.

I forgot how

exactly that worked but they had a process in place for that, sir.
Q.

On the 19th of December of 2010, you submitted a request

19

for an emergency phone call with attorney, reference Vice President

20

Joseph Biden?

21

A.

That is correct, sir.

22

Q.

And did you get that phone call with your attorney?

3640

07523

1

A.

I don’t know.

I had a--I eventually got an attorney phone

2

call.

I was requesting one more immediately than that because I had

3

heard something strange going on at the facility.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

Yes, sir, but I--but I think the immediacy went away after

6
7

Well, you talked to him the next day at 1225?

that, sir.
Q.

But you didn’t, at the time, necessarily know if it was

8

because your attorney couldn’t be gotten a hold of or whether they

9

couldn’t figure out a system to make it happen?

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

Sure.

I’m not privy to that.

On 13 December 2010, so a few days almost a week

12

before the Vice President Biden issue, you asked for request gift

13

books from family and friends for online purchases.

14

the contents of the books are?

Do not know what

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

So, is that, again, the shotgun approach this time, you

17

don’t even know what they are but you just want them?

18

A.

Yes, sir, and that was denied.

19

Q.

I’m sorry, what?

20

A.

That was denied, sir.

21

Q.

Okay.

And then how about--How did--Explain for the court

22

how it is you would know to even submit these chits for these types

23

of requests?

3641

07524

1
2

A.

The process is outlined in their--in the facilities rules

and regulations for--that they issue to an inmate, sir.

3

Q.

Well, I assume.

Then let me ask a different way.

You

4

would find out from your family or friends that you were--that they

5

were intending to send you something?

6

A.

Sometimes through counsel, yes, sir.

7

Q.

And then you would then ask to get--once it arrived to get

9

A.

Sometimes, sir, yes, sir.

10

Q.

And then the brig would have to react based off of your

8

11

it?

request, to answer the request somehow?

12

A.

Of course.

510s usually have to be answered, yes, sir.

13

Q.

So, on the 13th of December it was denied but you were also

14

told when it was denied that you needed some specificity so they

15

could put it through that process that you just spoke about?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

As you can tell we are going back in time, so the 21st of

18

November 2010.

19

A.

Okay, sir.

20

Q.

You asked to make an addition to your mail and visitation

21
22

list.

This was for Glenn Greenwald, a friend from New York City?
A.

Yes, sir, that is correct.

3642

07525

1

Q.

So, the mail and visitation list, this was a list of who

2

could visit, who you authorized to visit and who you authorized to

3

send you mail, well anyone could send you mail but who you authorized

4

to send mail that you would receive?

5

A.

That is correct.

6

Q.

Were you authorized--Or based off this request were you

7

That is true.

allowed to add Mr. Glenn Greenwald to your list?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

On the 15th, again 6 days before, 15 November 2010, you

10

requested receipt of periodical, a monthly periodical, Scientific

11

American?

12

A.

That is correct, sir.

13

Q.

And you even gave the order date?

14

Did you receive

authorization to get that periodical?

15

A.

Definitely yes, yes, sir.

16

Q.

Actually you are very consistent.

6 days again before, 9

17

November 2010, you requested a discussion regarding recording or

18

monitoring of privileged communication and command conduct?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Will you please explain that?

21

MJ:

What was the date of that?

22

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I’m sorry, Your Honor, 9 November 2010.

3643

07526

1

A.

There was a--I mean, I don’t--I don’t recall exactly what

2

precipitated that, sir, but I did generally have a concern about what

3

was--what was and was not being recorded whenever I was talking to

4

the command and who was--and the listening capabilities of using the

5

phone that was in the back for like the attorney phone calls, sir.

6

Q.

Can you please explain kind of back up a little bit.

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

I don’t think yesterday you explained this, add more detail

9

for the court.

When you say in back the phone, explain--I guess

10

first question is, where did you typically speak to your attorneys

11

for privileged communications?

12

A.

Privileged communications normally took place, whenever

13

they were telephonic, there was a telephone, a--I’m guessing a DSN

14

phone for that--in Special Quarters there was what used to be, I mean

15

it still had--it said--it still had the chief’s office sign on it and

16

then it was just sort of a storage area in which that telephone was

17

there and it was a chair and a table and allowed--well, they had

18

inmates including myself sit there and we would hold the telephone up

19

to the ear and talk to our counsel.

20

telephone number.

21
22
23

Q.

Okay.

A.

And then they would----

The guard would put in the

So, they would put the telephone number in and then-

---

3644

07527

1

Q.

You were in a closed office with privacy to talk to your---

3

A.

Not always closed, no, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

During your conversations with your attorneys?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Okay.

A.

Yes, sir.

2

6

10
11

-

So, you’re concern was that it wasn’t closed?
Sometimes the guards would sit in the room with

me.

And you were concerned about that and you told the

brig?
And I had the same concern regarding--because I

12

had been told that my, or I had been notified that my visitations

13

were being monitored and I was filling out forms for visitors and I

14

was concerned--I was confused about--I was confused about whether or

15

not that was the same for command.

16

between First Sergeant Williams, whenever they came whether that fell

17

under the same sort of scrutiny what they record.

So, between Captain Casamatta,

18

Q.

And they weren’t recording were they?

19

A.

I believe I was told that they were, sir.

20

Q.

Did you sign forms every time?

21

A.

I did not.

22

Q.

Okay.

3645

07528

1

A.

But the sign was still there and so--and the brig staff had

2

advised me that all of my communications would be, except for--except

3

for clergy and attorney phone calls could be recorded and that

4

everything else could just be, you know, monitored from--by the

5

guards but not really recorded or anything, sir.

6

Q.

So, you sought clarification of that and then after that

7

point you did not or before or after--you never signed the consent to

8

monitoring when you met with Captain Casamatta, Lieutenant Varner, or

9

First Sergeant Williams?

10
11

A.

I did not, I did not.

I was told that I did not need to

because they were civilian, or they were not civilian.

12

Q.

And then in the last part of that that was when you had the

13

confidential communications, well, you had the communications with

14

your defense counsel, you would go to the other office.

15

telephone calls that were recorded or were from your cell, how did

16

that work?

17

A.

What about

There was a--again, there was a phone, it was on a cart so

18

it had wheels and a long wire which would go into the observation

19

booth, and it was--you would pick up the phone and then you--it would

20

request for your PIN number and a lot of other things.

21

remember exactly how it works.

22

JRCF.

I don’t

There is a very similar system at the

3646

07529

1
2

Q.

So, because you were in MAX/POI status they would literally

wheel a phone over to your--to the front of your cell?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And then you would----

5

A.

If I had requested for it, yes, sir.

6

Q.

Okay.

Now--Thank you.

Going now to the next chit in line,

7

I think it is on 4 November 2010.

8

inquiry including getting copies of your Leave and Earning

9

Statements?

10
11

A.

You had a request for a pay

Yes, I wasn’t sure where to direct those at the time but

eventually it was directed to go through the command for that, sir.

12

Q.

So, they answered that chit as well?

13

A.

I don’t believe that the facility had to because it was--it

14

was not their responsibility.

15

Q.

So, the command fixed that for you?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

17

Q.

And then on 7 August 2010, you requested disposition and

18

accessibility of an attorney-delivered folder from Major Hurley?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

What--Can you explain what happened there?

21

A.

I had a--I had a packet of documents that Major Hurley

22

wanted me to see or had asked me to see or asked me to keep and go

3647

07530

1

through and those were confiscated and I never--I still don’t know

2

what happened to this day with those documents.

3
4
5
6
7
8
9

Q.

So did--So, they never answered the chit or they could not

find the folder you were talking about?
A.

They told me that I was not allowed to have it, sir, and

that it was--it was being reviewed or something like that, sir.
Q.

Okay.

So, they answered it but just not with an answer

necessarily that you wanted or hoped for?
A.

It wasn’t an answer that I really understood.

So, I

10

believe I received that answer from the Army Liaison as opposed to

11

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis for, I think it was Staff Sergeant Jordan.

12

Q.

He was the Army Liaison the Army Rep for the facility?

13

A.

And he was also a counselor, not necessarily my counselor

14
15
16
17

but a counselor, sir.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Okay.

Your Honor, the United States would like

marked the chits I just went through.
MJ:

That’s fine.

18

[The court reporter marked copies of the chits as Appellate Exhibit

19

426a and handed it to the military judge for review.]

20

MJ:

May I see them please?

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

22

MJ:

And, ma’am----

Are you using them further?

3648

07531

1
2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

No.

No, Your Honor, but we would like them

marked as 426 alpha so if we do have any other enclosures.

3

MJ:

Okay.

4

Q.

Private First Class Manning, it’s been almost an hour, do

5

you need a comfort break?

6

A.

No.

I’m good, sir.

7

Q.

So we mentioned a few times right now I’m talking about the

8

command visits.

9

company commander, Captain Casamatta and the first sergeant, First

10

Yesterday you testified that you really liked your

Sergeant Williams?

11

A.

Yes, he’s the best.

12

Q.

First Sergeant Williams or Casamatta?

13

A.

Both of them, sir.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

And then Lieutenant Varner, Captain Varner now.

16

Q.

And Captain Varner and First Sergeant Williams are your

17

current company commander and first sergeant?

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

They are the ones who visited within 48 hours of you

20

arriving to Quantico?

21

A.

Within 24 hours, sir.

22

Q.

Within 24 hours?

23

You also met your battalion commander, I

think, at that time, Lieutenant Colonel Leiker?

3649

07532

1

A.

I met somebody from operations.

I believe it was the

2

operations chief or the, one of the--it was an S-3 like position, but

3

I don’t recall.

4

commander and then I actually met the battalion commander within a

5

few days of arrival, sir.

6

Q.

But somebody came in to represent the battalion

So, you arrived and your Army chain of command showed up to

7

explain your new command structure and made sure that you understood

8

that you weren’t just being left in the sea of the Marines?

9

A.

That is correct, sir.

10

Q.

And they visited you, you said, earlier this morning on

11

average every other week, about?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Yesterday you even gave the example of how you asked for

14

new tennis shoes or athletic shoes and they somehow ever obtained

15

your original ones from Fort Drum?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

While you visited with them you had discussions with them

18

and they always asked a series of questions?

19

A.

That is correct, sir.

20

Q.

In fact you became so good at answering questions that you

21

sometimes gave them the answers because you knew which questions were

22

coming up next?

3650

07533

1
2
3
4
5

A.

If the forms were the same, yes, sir, because they did

change at some point I believe, sir.
Q.

So, could you explain the form you are talking about to the

court?
A.

The company or I don’t know--I don’t know what level but

6

the company was using a form for checking up on me to make sure they

7

asked the same questions for the command visits every single time as

8

well as giving me the opportunity to speak about any issues that

9

might not necessarily be on the form.

10
11

There was an exhaustive list

of I think some 30 or something questions, ma’am.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, for your reference this is Enclosure

12

26 to Appellate Exhibit 259 and Appellate Exhibit 259 is the

13

government’s response to Article 13.

14

Q.

Private First Class Manning, what I would like to do is run

15

through this form real quick, just the generic example.

16

about any specific weeks.

Not talking

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

So--And ask you a few questions about these questions.

19
20
21
22
23

So,

the form--well, first there was one--this form was two pages long?
A.

Double sided maybe.

I think there is more pages if it’s

not double-sided, sir.
Q.

And sometimes you answered the questions by writing it and

other times they asked you and they wrote it down?

3651

07534

1

A.

I usually--it was almost always verbal.

They did it

2

although some--one officer required me to initial or something like

3

that.

4

I don’t recall what that was, sir.
Q.

Okay.

And then--But at the end of it after y’all had your

5

discussion and you went through the questions and the form then you

6

would sign the form?

7

A.

Yes, we did, sir.

8

Q.

And date it?

9

A.

Correct, sir.

Except for one occasion where First Sergeant

10

Williams did not have physical access to me.

11

happened to that form but I did not sign that one, sir.

12

Q.

We--I don’t know what

And there was actually, I think, a few occasions where--

13

where there wasn’t a form used and it was just written out on a piece

14

of paper?

15

A.

Yes, sometimes they would forget the form but we would

16

still go through as many of the questions as the command could--the

17

representative could remember, sir.

18

Q.

19

conditions?”

20

A.

Correct, sir.

21

Q.

And then if you did, “Have you requested care at all for

22
23

So, the first question:

And you would have to answer yes or no?

those medical conditions?”
A.

“Do you have any medical

And you would have to answer yes or no?

Yes, sir.

3652

07535

1

Q.

And if so, “Was the medical response timely?”

2

A.

Yes or no.

3

Q.

Next major question, “Do you have any dental needs?”

4

medical then dental.

5

so have you requested care?”

6

A.

Yes or no.

Dental needs you would answer yes or no.

I don’t believe that--I believe that was added later.

So,
“If

I

7

don’t believe that--Because I’ve requested for medical but I

8

requested for dental because at some point they didn’t have--they

9

didn’t ask that particular question.

10

Q.

Okay.

Give me one moment.

Before we keep going just for a

11

frame of reference, do you remember ever receiving any of these forms

12

before 19 August, because the first form I have is 19 August 2010?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

There was--it was early August, so it would have been the

16

3rd of August was the very first one I received, sir.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

That’s a guess.

19

Q.

Sure.

20

A.

I’m not going to put a quantity but within the first 10

21
22
23

I’m just guessing at it.

days of August.
Q.

Okay.

So, and then the command used this form or as you

said earlier some variance of this form through, even when they visit

3653

07536

1

today, and at Fort Leavenworth or a local facility that you might be

2

housed at?

3

A.

That is correct, sir.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, for purposes, although you probably

5

see that right now, the form there are no, at least here, forms

6

before 19 August.

7

Q.

Okay.

So after dental needs the next major question is,

8

“Have you been visited by your unit?”

9

since they are asking it and they are the unit.

10

A.

11

for me, sir.

12

Q.

13

Which also might seem odd

Well, the form --it wasn’t necessarily just specifically

Okay.

So, it says, “Have you been visited by your unit?”

Yes or no and it even asked who had visited you in the past?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And when was that last visit.

16

A.

Yes, sir.

United States Army Garrison is a large company.

17

So--You know, they--it’s always the same representatives for me but

18

for, you know, other Soldiers in confinement that have some more

19

things the questions are more broad for that kind of, sort of

20

situation, sir.

21

Q.

Okay.

And I think even one time you had someone who was

22

not the XO, Commander, First Sergeant, visit you.

23

Ridmer one time?

3654

I think Chief

07537

1

A.

Something along those lines, sir.

2

Q.

Then next major question, “Have you been visited by a

3

chaplain?”

Like we talked about earlier?

4

A.

Correct, sir.

5

Q.

And you would answer yes or no?

6

A.

Correct, sir.

7

Q.

Who visited you, when was the last time they visited?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And then the next major question, “Are you putting your

10

uniforms and other clothing out for clean?”

So, they are making sure

11

you are at least getting your uniforms cleaned?

12

A.

Correct, sir.

13

Q.

And a series of questions about when that happened or when

14

you would get them back?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Then the next major question is about getting showers.

17

“Are you allowed to shower?”

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And then with that you have soap, shaving gear and a towel?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And sometimes the answers were no and you asked them for

22
23

help with that?
A.

Correct, sir.

3655

07538

1
2

Q.

The next major question, “Are you being offered recreation

time each day?”

And then----

3

A.

Any issues with that, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

rec call for?

6

A.

And how often, sir.

7

Q.

Next question, “Do you have telephone access?”

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And then, “Have you made any calls?”

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

And then how many calls have you made?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

So these aren’t just yes or no questions, some of them

14

And then how long--they would ask how long is your

elicited actual----

15

A.

Open-ended, yes.

16

Q.

----responses.

And then questions of making sure that you

17

have adequate access to your defense attorney.

So, specifically, “Do

18

you have telephonic access to your defense attorney?”

19

A.

Certainly.

20

Q.

“Has your defense attorney visited you here?”

21
22

Yes, sir.

asking about physical visitation?
A.

Yes, sir.

3656

So, they are

07539

1
2

Q.

“Have you visited your defense attorney?”

Why, what’s the

difference there?

3

A.

Oh, just in case I have to go someplace into a TDS Office

4

at my--normally it would be on-post or something like that for--

5

again, the form is designed for more broad situations, not

6

necessarily just me, sir.

7
8

Q.

Quantico Brig while you were in confinement?

9
10
11
12

So, did you ever visit with you defense counsel outside

A.

Yes, sir.

Well, we’ve met at--we met a few times at Fort

Q.

So, your chain of command would go sign you out of Quantico

Myer.

and bring you to Fort Myer, Virginia?

13

A.

The Military District of Washington did.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

I don’t know.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

Sometimes----

It was the Army, yes, sir.

So, someone in the Army on behalf of the command

would show up and then bring you to the TDS Office?

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

What about, since we’ve already talked about it, what about

20

medical appointments and dental appointments?

21

for the court how those worked please?

22
23

A.

How did those--Explain

Medical and dental appointments as far as the brig and the

Navy--Quantico base was concerned were not their issue.

3657

They

07540

1

considered those to be the unit’s responsibility and so, accordingly,

2

I would make those requests to my command, my Army command, sir.

3
4

Q.

And then so when you made that request, they would then,

the Army command, would show up and take you to those appointments?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

But the brig did have a Corpsman, a Medic on staff that

7

would visit?

8

A.

9

Not the brig.

The Quantico base--Quantico base would had

an Officer Candidate School that was nearby in which the Corpsman

10

would--would travel over occasionally if there was an emergency or

11

something of that nature, sir.

12
13

Q.

Okay.

Now, looking at what is typically Page 2 then the

next major question is, “Do you have access to the brig library?”

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Yes or no questions and if yes, are you reading materials

16

offered to you at your cell?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Then next one now starts talking about chow.

19

being fed every day?”

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Next question and then how----

22

A.

How many meals.

23

Q.

I’m sorry, how many?

3658

“Are you

07541

1

A.

How many meals, sir.

2

Q.

How many meals.

3

A.

Whether they are hot meals.

4

Q.

And that’s the next question whether they were hot.

5

So,

you even remember today these questions?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

The next big question almost like a quiz here, “Have you

8

had any visitors other than the chain of command?”

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

So they were concerned whether you were getting visitors?

11

A.

Are concerned, sir.

12

Q.

They are concerned still today?

13

A.

Correct, sir.

14

Q.

Thank you.

15

And then they would ask, “If so, who?” And you

would tell them?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And then they would ask when was the last visit?

18

A.

Certainly, sir, yes.

19

Q.

And then if there were any issues surrounding the visit?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

The next major question is, “If the inmate is on suicide

22

watch or injury prevention.”

And then the first question, because

3659

07542

1

that’s the topic, was, “How long have you been on suicide watch or

2

injury prevention?”

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

The next question is, “Do you understand why you are on

5

suicide watch or prevention?”

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Injury prevention.

8

“When was the last time you saw a

doctor, a therapist, or counselor?”

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

“If so, what was the visit or was that visit on post or at

11

the brig?”

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Next major question, “Are you getting any prescription

14

medications that you need?”

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Yes or no.

17

“Did you get them in doses prescribed?”

That

was the next question?

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

And then, “Did you get the medication on time?”

To make

20

sure you are actually getting what you are supposed to get from the

21

brig?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And that’s a yes or no question?

3660

07543

1

A.

Correct, sir.

2

Q.

The next question is or still is today and was then, “Since

3

my, the command’s last visit how have you been treated by the

4

guards?”

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And then the question following that, “Since my or the

7

command’s last visit, how have you been treated by the facility?”

8

A.

Correct, sir.

9

Q.

The next question, “Do you understand the inmate grievance

10

process or excuse me, the procedure?”

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And then some specific questions about hat every single

13

time, so I assume once you answer the first time a lot these were the

14

same?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

Which was----

17

A.

Sometimes they would not be asked vocally.

18

Q.

This portion?

19

A.

Yes, if they went--I mean my command would eventually start

20
21
22
23

to just skip questions if they were not necessary, sir.
Q.

So, when you say that I assume you mean like, did you

receive the inmate handbook?
A.

Correct, sir.

We would skip over that.

3661

07544

1
2

Q.

Because once you said yes, probably in August of 2010, you

didn’t need to say it again every other week?

3

A.

Correct, sir.

4

Q.

And then the very--the last question is, “Do you have any

5

needs that we, the command could take of?”

6

A.

Correct, sir.

7

Q.

And then at the bottom-left you would print, sign, date and

8

then the visitor on the bottom-right would print, sign, and date?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And then also there’s a DoD or is it a DoD or DA Form?

11

There was the confinement facility form, I don’t know what type of

12

form that the command rep had to sign and if there were any issues to

13

give to the brig and that you would sign too?

14

A.

Yes, normally that was the--that would be the--I would sign

15

it but it would be the representative that would fill it out in terms

16

if something needed to be written down.

I was in restraints, sir.

17

Q.

Okay.

And this was done in the visitation booth area?

18

A.

Non-contact booth, yes, sir.

19

Q.

So, now what I would like to do is just go through some of

20

these and ask you some very specific questions.

21

August 2010, the first documented command visit we have, when you

22

were asked about how you have been treated by the guards, your answer

23

was very professionally.

3662

So, starting at 19

07545

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And then about the facility, very professionally?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And then have we taken care of all your needs, you of

5

course wrote, I’m not sure yet, or said you are not sure yet?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

That’s because it was the first visit and they didn’t have

8

an opportunity to take any needs?

9

A.

No, sir.

I was not sure--I don’t recall the reason why.

10

It was--It was August so I think that they were--there were various

11

issues in terms of moving with just--I mean there were logistics

12

involving where certain items were, to get my shoes and things like

13

that and paperwork being transferred over from Fort Drum and my LES

14

and things like that, pay.

15

dealing with a permanent change of station which is what a PCS is,

16

sir.

17

Q.

Okay.

A lot of just basic Soldier issues

So, now looking at the next document, 26 August

18

2010, they visited you and like when asked about if you had telephone

19

access, yes.

20

actually said zero at that point and then again when asked about

21

treatment by the guards, you wrote or you said very professionally?

22

A.

For attorney.

How many calls had you made?

Yes, sir.

3663

You

07546

1

Q.

2

issues.

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And I think this was----

5

A.

Well, I think the person asking me the questions wrote down

6

By the facility?

Very professionally and you wrote, no

no issues.

7

Q.

Thank you.

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And then is there anything we can take care of and you

10

Lieutenant Varner?

actually--here is the time you wrote disposition of belongings?

11

A.

Correct, sir.

12

Q.

This is the tennis shoes more than likely?

13

A.

Well, more broadly it was I had a lot of stuff, I don’t

14

recall whether it was in government storage or whatever, I had

15

friends that had stuff.

16

Facility equipment that was just all over the place.

17

make sure it was all accounted for and that, you know, I wouldn’t

18

have to end up paying for, you know, plates, like armor and plate

19

carriers and things like that, you know, so that way I knew where it

20

was and the Army knew where it was in particular so that I wouldn’t

21

have to have that docked from my pay, sir.

22

Q.

Sure.

23

A.

Correct, sir.

I had a lot of CIF, so Central Issue

And they took care of that for you?

3664

So, I wanted to

07547

1
2

Q.
2010.

So, now going to the next documented checklist 10 September

When asked about the guards, still professional?

3

A.

Very professional, yes, sir.

4

Q.

And the facility still professional?

5

A.

Very professional, yes, sir.

6

Q.

Do you have any needs that could be taken care of and you

7

said no?

8

A.

They wrote down no.

9

Q.

They wrote down no?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

So, did you tell them there were needs?

12

A.

I only--I would--There was a decision made either by, you

13

And I--I signed the document.

know, I’m not--I’m not privy to how the command thinks----

14

Q.

Sure.

15

A.

----you know, I’m not going to question Captain Varner or

16

Captain Casamatta or First Sergeant Williams but they would make a

17

decision as to whether--I would always vocally explain something but

18

sometimes they would write down no issues as opposed to, you know,

19

but that didn’t necessarily mean I didn’t bring anything up, sir.

20
21

Q.

Okay.

So, I guess on 10 September are you saying you did

bring something up or that there were no issues?

22

A.

On 10 September?

23

Q.

On 10 September 2010?

3665

07548

1

A.

I don’t recall but there were often times where I would

2

vocally and sometimes it would just be dealt with at that level and

3

then it didn’t--like the no issues would be for like if there was an

4

issue that needed to be dealt with and needed to be written down and

5

couldn’t be dealt with right there verbally then it would be written

6

down but normally--normally if there was an issue that like dental

7

and being transported and belongings and things like that to remind

8

First Sergeant Williams or Captain Casamatta they would write it

9

down, sir.

10

Q.

Okay.

So, they couldn’t, meaning whatever command rep

11

showed up the First Sergeant, XO, First Sergeant, Company Commander,

12

First Sergeant and they couldn’t take care of it right there with you

13

then it was like, okay, write it down so we can take care of it.

14
15
16

A.

Right.

If they could remember it then they would just

usually put down no issues.
Q.

Okay.

Yes, sir.

On 17 September and I just realized that we just

17

talked about 10 September, so one week later, 17 December [SIC],

18

again asked about the guards and the facility, this time just

19

professionally the way they are treating you?

20

A.

Very professional, sir.

21

Q.

Do you have any issues, or needs, not issues, I know I said

22
23

that before, needs that need to be taken care of.
A.

That’s what’s on there, yes, sir.

3666

The answer was no.

07549

1

Q.

Okay.

Now, 3 days later they came back on 23 September,

2

assuming this date is correct, and again you answer about the guards

3

and the facility is professional----

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

----the way you are being treated?

6

A.

I would vocally say very professional.

7

Q.

Okay.

8

A.

Right, they stopped putting the very professional it sounds

9
10
11

So, this time they wrote just professional?

like, sir.
Q.

And again do you have any needs we can take care of, no and

then you signed the bottom-left?

12

A.

Correct, sir.

13

Q.

On 30 September as we got through this I just notice one

14

difference here, are you being offered recreation time each day, yes

15

or no isn’t check but what is hand written is, if it is not raining

16

20 minutes.

17

A.

That is correct, sir.

18

Q.

And then now going back on 30 September to the guards and

19

the facility, this time it says excellent and then very professional,

20

so the guards were excellent and the facility very professional?

21

A.

I don’t recall if it’s--I mean that’s how I usually say--I

22

would usually say either--I would start--I started vocally give a

23

rating so in terms of whether it was excellent performance or, you

3667

07550

1

know, and then very -- the facility very professionally.

2

of how I vocally did it.

3

time, sir.

4
5

Q.

That’s sort

We just repeated the same thing most of the

And -- and -- And I haven’t mentioned this before but do

you understand the inmate grievance procedures, yes.

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

7 October 2010, same questions treated by the guards, this

8

time it actually says fine, treated by facility same fine.

9

this part of the grading process?

So is

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

At this point?

12

A.

Oh, no, this time is sort of saw it was, you know, fine,

13

excellent, I mean, I just use a--I mean I use a buzzword.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

And vocally to--I mean I’m not the one, again, I’m not the

16

one that’s writing these answers down.

17

Q.

Sure.

18

A.

But I would sign the document with the answer.

19

Q.

Okay.

And here do you have any needs to be taken care of,

20

no, and actually this week it was not at this time, at least was said

21

or documented.

22

A.

Yes, sir.

3668

07551

1

Q.

Okay.

2

bit different.

3

each day?

15 October 2010, now this one appears to be a little
Are you getting rec call, you answered yes.

How long

Again you said 20 minutes.

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

By this point--How are you being treated by the guards?

6

Very professional.

How are you being treated by the facility?

7

professional.

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

----15 October.

Very

So, at least this portion appears to be the same----

Okay.

Now on 21 October 2010, you are

10

asked about the guards, professional.

You are asked about the

11

treating facility and how they are treating you, professional.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Any needs to take care of, no.

You do have a good memory.

14

On 27 October 2010, you were asked have you been visited by a

15

chaplain, you answered yes.

And then you said, who visited you and

16

it was Chaplain Roosendaal.

Is that who you were talking about

17

before?

18

A.

I--It might be the right name, I’m not sure.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

I was not sure and I stated that whenever--I wasn’t sure

21

how to pronounce it.

I wasn’t sure if it was the correct name.

22

wasn’t even sure if it was the correct rank because I wasn’t sure

23

what branch of service he was in.

3669

I

07552

1
2

Q.

Well, it makes sense, chaplain, it could be any branch or

any rank.

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

When was your last defense attorney visit, 2 weeks

5

ago.

So this one actually is slightly different because it says,

6

since my visit--since my last visit how have you been treated by the

7

guards, this time, excellent, very professional.

8

facility, excellent, very professional as well.

And then about the

9

A.

Yes, I usually stated the same thing for that portion, sir.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

So, me verbally it would be the same every time but they

12

would write it down different, sir.

13
14

Q.

Oh, okay.

10 November, to the best of your recollection,

the same?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

About the guards or whether you have needs to be taken care

17

of.

Do you have telephone access, here’s a difference, you remember

18

saying no because the phone was down that week?

19

A.

Correct, sir.

20

Q.

Guards, facility, essentially the same answers, alright, no

21

issues.

22

November when asked how have you been treated by the guards this time

23

at least what they wrote down was, alright, no issues.

Actually that’s a little different because on 17 or 18

3670

So, not just

07553

1

the professional, very professional, fine, this one is all right, no

2

issues?

3

A.

Right.

4

Q.

That’s what you said or is that what was written down?

5

A.

It is probably what I said.

That is what’s written down, sir.

6

okay, alright.

7

MJ:

8

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

MJ:

I switched from excellent to

Major Fein, can I stop you for a second?
Yes, ma'am.

I’m a little confused.

I pulled the Court’s copy of what

10

was at the attachment and I end at--with these notes at 15 October.

11

Should there be more of them?

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

but we have copies right here we’ll just give you a fresh copy if

14

that will help.

15
16

MJ:

I think that might be a printing issue, Your Honor,

Could you send someone out to make them so I can go along

with you when you are asking the questions?

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

MJ:

19
20
21
22

I’m sorry, could you say that again, Your Honor?

Can you send someone out to make a copy of those so I can

follow along with you?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, I have a copy right here for you, Your

Honor.
MJ:

Okay.

Thank you.

3671

07554

1
2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

We will just have it marked as well.

this has been marked as Appellate Exhibit 426 bravo.

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Thank you.
And, ma’am, 18 November 2012, bottom-right of the

5

page would say Page 755 of 1,505.

6

Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:

7

So, ma’am,

Q.

So, Private First Class Manning, on 18 November 2010, we

8

left off where you would have said alright, no issues about the

9

treatment by the guards or they just wrote that down?

10

A.

Towards the middle of Autumn I changed my statement that I

11

would say every time to something along the lines of mediocre,

12

average, alright, sir.

13

Q.

Okay.

Thank you.

And then actually this one you did have

14

something that they could take care of, one more set of sweats,

15

small?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

17

Q.

What do you mean by that?

18

A.

I did--I did not have--it was getting cold in there and I

19

did not have--although most of the detainees in that facility from

20

what I understand had issued sweats, because the Marine Corps still

21

had sweats but instead we switched over to a different uniform.

22

I did not have sweats to stay warm and they were--and the facility

3672

So,

07555

1

was getting concerned about that.

They actually raised that issue

2

with the command as well as me, sir.

3

Q.

So, what did the command do based off of that request?

4

A.

They went out and bought at Target some sweats, sir.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

Because the Army doesn’t have sweats any more so

they----

7

A.

Right.

8

Q.

And you received those sweats?

9
10

Yes, sir, they were dark

grey, just generic sweats.
A.

Okay.

Now, the next date on 28, excuse me 26 November

11

2010, First Sergeant Williams visited you?

12

knowledge is this the first date that he forgot the checklist?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

It’s not or it is?

15

A.

It is not, sir.

16

Q.

It’s not.

17
18

To the best of your

When do you remember him not having the

checklist before?
A.

It was actually--First Sergeant Williams would actually

19

frequently forget it so it not uncommon for him to not, and sometimes

20

he would not write anything down.

21

ask the questions and not necessarily put it into a document, sir.

22
23

Q.

He would just come and see me and

So, sometimes he would--So, sometimes he would have the

document and sometimes he didn’t have the document but would write

3673

07556

1

stuff down and then you are saying sometimes he wouldn’t write

2

anything down and just have a conversation with you?

3

A.

First Sergeant Williams, yes, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

So, on this date of 26 November 2010, when asked

about how you were being treated again, professional?

6

A.

We had these questions memorized by this point, sir.

7

Q.

Okay.

8

A.

We.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And still probably today?

12

A.

Absolutely.

13

Q.

10 December 2010, this time it sounds the same, how have

We or you?

So he did too?

14

you been treated by the guards, excellent.

Since your last--since

15

the command’s last visit, how is the facility treating you,

16

excellent.

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And you signed this document as well?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And actually here do you have any needs to be taken care of

21
22

and you wrote need underwear and t-shirts?
A.

I don’t know if I wrote that, sir.

23

3674

07557

1

Q.

Okay but at least stated you needed underwear and t-shirts?

2

A.

I did need more underwear and t-shirts.

3

The ones that I

had were from my deployment and so they still smelled like Iraq.

4

Q.

So, you needed new ones?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And they were able to obtain those for you?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8
9
10

No matter how many times it got washed it just

never went away, sir.
Q.

Okay.

On 14 December 2010, there is a change here, are you

being offered rec time each day?

Your answer is yes.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

But then here it says how long each day and this time you

13
14
15

stated 1 hour a day?
A.

I had notified them of the change, the increase that Chief

Warrant Officer 4 Averhart had made.

16

Q.

Okay.

So, at this point he had increased the rec time?

17

A.

And I notified the command of that, yes, sir.

18

Q.

Okay.

When asked about how you were treated by the guards

19

this time, at least they wrote down good, excellent and then the

20

facility, good, excellent.

Do you remember?

21

A.

Again, it goes back to vocally rating, sir.

22

Q.

And are there any needs to be taken care of and your answer

23

was no.

23 December 2010----

3675

07558

1

A.

Well, not necessarily, sir, I would usually vocalize

2

concerns but they might be dealt with vocally as opposed to having to

3

be written down.

4

Q.

Thank you.

5

A.

Yes, sir, and I’m just saying that again.

6

Q.

Good.

7

What you said a few minutes ago?

23 December, so this is 2 days before Christmas they

showed up to visit you?

8

A.

Correct, sir.

9

Q.

23 December 2010, when asked about how are you being

10

treated by the guards this time at least is written down fine.

11

Treated by the facility, fine.

Do you remember that?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And then do you have any needs to be taken care of this

14

time, now, this month do you remember there was no yes or now but it

15

was written in there, not at this time?

16

A.

I would almost always--almost every single time if I didn’t

17

have anything I would usually state, well, not at this time.

18

be careful because, there might not be issues today, at this moment

19

but----

20

Q.

Sure.

21

A.

----I might have issues in the future, sir.

3676

Just to

07559

1

Q.

Okay.

And you signed and dated that one.

Now, 309

2

December 2010, so they came I guess that’s 1 week later, again asked,

3

treated by the guards, excellent?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

Treated by the facility, excellent?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Any needs to be taken care of, this time just no, signed

8

and dated.

Next date on 6 January 2011, how have you been treated by

9

the guards, excellent?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Treated by the facility, oddly here treated by the

12

facility, at least what was written down was no issues for how to be

13

treated by the facility?

14

A.

That’s what it says.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

What’s the date on that, sir?

17

Q.

6 January 2011?

18

A.

That is whenever I started raising the 510 issue or I had

19

vocally to Captain--was it Captain Casamatta?

20

Q.

It was.

21

A.

Then I had vocally explained that but we didn’t write it--

22
23

It was.

we didn’t put it in writing, sir.
Q.

Okay.

3677

07560

1

A.

I told him I was going to submit a 510 the next day.

2

Q.

Okay.

On 14 January 2011, the one where you are initialing

3

items, around--you were asked--so again, on 14 January 2011, you were

4

asked how are you being treated by the guards, excellent.

5

the facility again, excellent.

6

grievance procedure, you answered--like every month you answered yes.

Treated by

At this point do you understand the

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

14 January 2011.

9

A.

Okay.

10

Q.

But this one----

11

A.

----I think the date might be wrong on that.

12

Q.

Well, it’s interesting that you say that and would you like

13

Now, what’s the date on this one, sir?

So that was--was that the----

a copy to look at?

14

A.

I would, if you don’t mind, sir.

15

Q.

I don’t.

Actually what I’m going to hand you is what has

16

been marked as Appellate Exhibit 426b.

17

the page numbers.

18

1,505.

It’s the whole packet with

If you look at the bottom-right, Page 771 of

It starts with Page 1.

19

A.

771 of 1-5-0-5, sir.

20

Q.

Yes.

21

A.

And that’s where it starts?

22

Q.

Yes, so it is the next two pages.

23

A.

Yes, sir.

3678

07561

1

Q.

So, on the top-left you initialed a change in the date?

2

A.

Well, I did not, Captain Casamatta no, First Sergeant

3

Williams did.

4

Q.

Ah, okay, got it because that’s a B W, not B M.

5

A.

I remember that--I remember that there was a--that we

6

weren’t sure what date it was, neither of us were and we asked the

7

brig staff and they weren’t sure either, sir.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

We never found out, sir.

10

Q.

Okay.

11
12
13
14
15

So, was it 14 January?

So, what was--it was initialed by First Sergeant

Williams, so---A.

My best guess is it was the 14th then.

He might have

checked that out in the end, sir.
Q.

So, it definitely has changed from what was originally

there and then initialed after the change, correct?

16

A.

Yes, sir, because those are not my initials for the change

17

on the 14th.

18

Q.

Because it is not B M versus it says B W?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So, starting from the top down----

So if you look now to the next page 772?

3679

07562

1
2
3

A.

Again, those are not my initials for the--from where I put

the date in, that’s not my initials.
Q.

Sure, actually then--so the initials on the top-left and

4

the bottom-left of Page 772 is the same initials that are on the top-

5

left of 771?

6

A.

Correct, sir.

7

Q.

Thank you.

So, the middle of the page the question, since

8

my last visit how have you been treated by the guards, you answer was

9

excellent.

10

How have you been treated by the facility, this time you-

-at least what was written was alright?

11

A.

I did not write that, First Sergeant Williams did.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

And then do you understand the grievance process,

the answer was yes?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

But there is a difference there, it says, have you used it,

16

your answer this time is yes?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And what for and you told your first sergeant, to figure

19

out how to get off of injury prevention?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And then you stated or on here it says Friday, is that 7

22

Jan 11?

3680

07563

1

A.

Yes, sir.

I again notified the fact that I was putting in-

2

-I was supplementing the fact that I had notified the previous--in

3

the previous one I had stated that I was putting in a 510 through the

4

facility or to the facility commander and then I--because I was

5

worried that my 510s were not making it to where they needed to go

6

because of the fact that I put one in in mid-September so I got the--

7

I made sure I was covering my base with the command on that, sir.

8
9
10

Q.

Okay.

But I guess what I’m confused about, Private First

Class Manning, the December and the January documents and feel free
to flip back about two or three.

11

A.

Certainly, sir.

12

Q.

When it’s asked have you used the grievance procedures you

13
14
15
16

always answered no.
A.

Well, sometimes I would skip over that vocally because we

just didn’t need to go over that question, sir.
Q.

Okay.

But on this day the answer is yes, going back to 14-

17

-well what has been--what First Sergeant Williams changed and

18

initialed 14 January?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

This date the answer is yes, you have used the procedures

21

and----

22

A.

Yes, and for that specific 510, sir.

3681

07564

1
2

Q.

Okay.

And that’s what you meant when you told him you

wrote this down?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Thank you.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Private First Class Manning, do you need a comfort break

7

And then you signed the bottom-left?

right now or could we go a few more minutes?

8

A.

7 more minutes would be good, sir.

9

Q.

7 more?

10

A.

[Laughing].

11

Q.

7 more it will be.

12

A.

I can control my bladder, sir.

13

Q.

I’ll try to get it within 7.

So the next date, now if you

14

look in the packet Page 774 of the appellate exhibit, this one dated

15

at the bottom-right, where you--are those your initials on the

16

bottom-right the B-E-M?

17

A.

For that 771?

18

Q.

Yes, no, 774, onto the next page.

19

This is the hand-written

document?

20

A.

Yes, those are.

21

Q.

And those are you initials, 20 January 2011?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

Got it.

I didn’t put a slash through the zero.
On the 20 you are talking about?

3682

07565

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And if you look to the middle of the page, number 12, it

3

says how have you been treated by the guards, this time you wrote

4

decent for number 16.

5

time.

6

are trying to ask why and how it was implemented being POI?

7
8
9

Any other needs, you wrote nothing new this

Is there a reason you wrote nothing new is because you still

A.

Well the nothing new it goes from 16 then it goes to 17,

that is the same one.
Q.

Okay.

Thank you.

So, 16 nothing new, any other needs,

10

nothing new, 17 some grievance pending which is what referencing the

11

nothing new and that’s what you talk about the week before?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And then you start here why and how it was implemented?

14

A.

Correct, sir.

15

Q.

And this is your handwriting on this document?

16

A.

For the Bradley Manning E., just the name, I did not put

17
18

the asterisks or the why and how it was implemented.
Q.

Okay.

Thank you.

Now going to 28 January 2011, feel free

19

to flip if you need to.

Going to the second page when asked on 28

20

January 2011, since my last visit how have you been treated by the

21

guards and you wrote, better, or you stated better, excuse me, didn’t

22

write it?

3683

07566

1

A.

Yes, sir, because there was--there was an incident on the

2

18th involving--involving two of the guards so we went over that and

3

I explained that it was better that the incident--that incident had

4

occurred, I had explained that in the previous week or the previous

5

one and I just explained that it was better because what it was--

6

there were no incidents between that time and this visit, sir.

7

Q.

Okay.

Now, but--So, you just said as you spoke to them the

8

week before, the previous week, now that was on 20 January but when

9

you are asked about how you are treated by the guards is that why you

10

just said decent because of the incident on 18?

11

A.

Right, it’s a lower rating then excellent.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

Right, sir.

14

Q.

Also on 28 January when asked if you are being taken care

It’s a grading process?

15

of I guess you had a request of three pairs of socks and you had more

16

when you got there but you needed more, three pairs were missing?

17
18

A.

Yes, sir.

I started my--the number of socks that I had

started to diminish over time from I don’t know why, sir.

19

Q.

And they were able to get you more socks?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

22
23

A little bit before 7 minutes, but Your Honor,

the United States moves for a 15-minute recess?
MJ:

All right.

Any objection?

3684

07567

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

2

MJ:

All right.

No objection, Your Honor.
Court is in recess until 20 minutes until 12.

3

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1126, 30 November 2012.]

4

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1312, 30 November

5

2012.]

6

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

7

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

8

again present in court.

9
10

Major Fein?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am. Private First Class Manning, I remind

11

you are still under oath.

12

WIT: Yes, sir.

13

[The accused, Private First Class Manning remained on the witness

14

stand.]

15
16
17

CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued)
Questions by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN] continued:
Q.

Private First Class Manning, when we left off we were going

18

through the weekly update with the chain of command and I think we

19

stopped at 4 February 2011.

20

A.

Do you know which page that was, sir?

21

Q.

Yes, Page--on the bottom-right corner Page 779.

22

A.

779.

Yes, sir.

3685

07568

1

Q.

And this is of Appellate Exhibit 426 Bravo.

So during this

2

visit on 4 February 2011, when asked about how the guards--how you

3

had been treated by the guards you answered very well, or words to

4

that effect?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And then how you were treated by the facility excellent or

7

words to that effect?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Understood the grievance procedures, you acknowledged yes

10

at this point too?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And had no real comments about whether you had any needs to

13

be taken care?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Thank you.

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

The second page when asked, well at least here since the

Going to the next week, 11 February 2011.

18

last visit how have you been treated by the guards here, it was just

19

yes, not a no, and no real comment at least documented on this week,

20

correct?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

It was an unusual.

We had a--There was a

22

different, it says here Sergeant First Class Jones did this so it

23

was--it was done differently, sir.

3686

07569

1

Q.

Okay.

So then the following week, 18 February 2011, I

2

assume this was another week that First Sergeant Williams didn’t have

3

the form with him?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

Okay.

And on this 18 February 2011, of course at the

6

bottom with the question of do you have any visitation concerns

7

written differently and the answer was no.

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Is there anything that he could help you with, you actually

10

did ask for some help from your chain of command here, I think you

11

wrote your headgear if possible, a beret size 7?

12

A.

Yes, sir, they--I was being transferred using PC while

13

everyone else was in berets for movement and that was just a minor

14

issue.

15
16
17
18

Q.

Okay.

So you needed to get an actual beret to start

wearing?
A.

Yes, sir, that was before the PC became the utility uniform

cover again, sir.

19

Q.

So--Again, what type of movements, I assume this is outside

20

of the brig?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

Is this for----

23

A.

For attorney visits and I think we had a 706 board.

3687

07570

1

Q.

Around this time in February?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And you also asked for a dentist for--following the last

4
5
6
7
8
9

visit?
A.

Yes, sir.

I had some--I still had some work that needed to

be done.
Q.

And then why ask First Sergeant about checking on a

magazine order that you did in your name?
A.

Because I was started receiving magazine bills at Quantico

10

Base Brig.

11

getting bills while I was in confinement so I brought that to the

12

attention of the command as well, sir.

13
14
15
16
17
18

Q.

It was--They were concerned about the fact that I was

And then what happened at that point when you brought that

to their attention?
A.

Nothing really ever came up.

It never really affected my

credit rating or anything so it never got reported.
Q.

Okay.

Well, thank you.

So 25 February 2011, the next

visit?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

When asked how you were treated by the guards you said very

21

professionally.

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

How’s the facility treated you, very professional?

3688

07571

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Any needs that can be taken care of, you, no, at least was

3

marked here and you signed?

4

A.

That is correct, sir.

5

Q.

Thank you.

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Similarly since your last visit how have you been treated

8

On 2 March 2011?

by the guards, all right, this time was document?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And then about the facility, this time was actually okay?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And then do you have any needs that could be taken care of,

13

no, and this time at least documented by First Sergeant Williams and

14

you, it says not at this time?

15

A.

That is correct, sir.

16

Q.

Thank you.

Private First Class Manning, on 11 March now is

17

the next visit that was documented, on here when it talks about the

18

rec time, how long each day 1 hour is written?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And also up top about the chaplains visits now it says

21
22
23

First Lieutenant, I think, Rosenthal was the chaplain?
A.

Yes, sir.

And that’s not correct.

he was a Navy Lieutenant, so----

3689

He is a--I recall now

07572

1

Q.

Okay.

2

A.

Captain.

3

Q.

Captain?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

Thank you.

6

So a Navy Lieutenant which is an Army----

And then at this same visit, how are you

treated by the guards, it was annotated very well?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And by the facility very well?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

And no needs to be taken care of at that time?

11

A.

Correct, sir.

12

Q.

Exactly 1 week later on 18 March 2011, when asked about the

13

treatment of the guards this time very professional and the facility,

14

you said maybe over cautious?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And what did you mean by maybe over cautious?

17

A.

This is 18 March so I was concerned because Chief Warrant

18

Officer 2 Barnes had placed me on what I considered some kind of

19

suicide restriction but without it being called a suicide

20

restriction.

21

Sergeant Williams.

22

Q.

23

you with it?

So, I was--I just--So, I discussed this with First

Okay, at that point did you ask him to figure it out, help

3690

07573

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Okay.

3
4
5

But then do you have any needs to be taken care of,

the answer is no.
A.

Do you have any other needs is the way he always asked the

question verbally, so.

6

Q.

And the answer than any other needs was no?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

Thank you.

The next week was 23 or the next visit

that was documented was 23 March 2011.

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And how you were treated by the guards, very well, was

12

written down and documented?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And how have you been treated by the facility here again

15
16

slightly different it says, treated okay but communication issues?
A.

Yes, sir.

I relayed the same information to Captain

17

Casamatta that I did with First Sergeant Williams in the, I think it

18

was two prior, it might have been one prior.

19

Q.

And----

20

A.

Yes, the 18 March.

21

Q.

What did you mean by communication issues?

3691

07574

1

A.

That’s what he wrote down.

I described the same thing as I

2

did with--with First Sergeant Williams and I just described it, but

3

to--this time to the company commander not just the first sergeant.

4
5

Q.

Okay.

So, the term communication issues was Captain

Casamatta’s choice of words?

6

A.

Phrasing, yes, sir.

7

Q.

You agreed with it when you signed this?

8

A.

Well, yes I did sign this, yes.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

Thank you.

12

A.

Uh-huh.

13

Q.

How have you been treated by the guards, now it’s alright?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

How you have been treated by the facility, okay?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And any needs to be taken care of, the box of no is

18

And any other needs you said not right now?

The next visitation on 31 March 2011.

Yes, sir.

checked?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Go to the next--Well, was there another one, another

21

visitation that was documented after that you are aware of after 31

22

March 2011?

23

A.

Another visitation?

3692

07575

1

Q.

By your chain of command, correct?

2

A.

By my--Ah, yes, yes, sir, there was.

3

Q.

When was that?

4

A.

I don’t know.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

I mean there were April visitations, yes, sir.

7

Q.

And when did you--When did you leave Quantico?

8

A.

I left Quantico Base Brig on 20 April of 2011, sir.

9

Q.

And these checklists continued once you went to the JRCF?

10

A.

That is correct, sir.

11

Q.

I would like to go look at very quickly the next one in

12

front of you which is dated 28 July 2011.

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

So this form is--Actually I think it is the exact same form

15

because even the top says Marine Corps Base, Quantico?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Okay.

They fixed that one in the next one I think.

Yep, got it.

On Page 2, how have you been treated

18

by the guards, great, no issues is what was documented by Captain

19

Casamatta?

20
21

A.

Yes, sir.

I upgraded to great because it was really,

really good, it’s above excellent.

22

Q.

23

A.

That makes sense.
Yes, sir.

3693

07576

1

Q.

And treated by the facility, same as everyone else?

2

A.

Yes, I was treated equally as other detainees or other

3

inmates so I felt that I was now being treated as normal, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

And you signed this one as well?

Your Honor, I am retrieving what’s been marked as

Appellate Exhibit 426 bravo.

8

WIT: Here, sir.

9

Q.

At least when you met with the chain of command and your

10

Army chain of command came and visited if you had issues they worked

11

to resolve those issues for you?

12

A.

Absolutely, yes, sir.

13

Q.

If you needed shoes they found you even your Fort Drum

14
15
16
17

shoes?
A.

Yes.

At the company level in particular it was

outstanding, sir.
Q.

And if it required interaction with the brig, your requests

18

for help they were able to interact with the brig and resolve those

19

issues?

20

A.

I don’t know.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I wasn’t privy

21

to the conversations between the Army at the company level at the

22

brig--at brigade level I don’t know.

23

interactions went, sir.

3694

I don’t know how those

07577

1

Q.

That’s fair.

But at least for the company commander at the

2

company level or the first sergeant one time Sergeant First Class

3

Jones showing up when you had issues that you shared with them they,

4

at their level would either resolve them if they could on the spot as

5

you talked about----

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

----or they would get back to you based off of what they

8
9
10
11

asked you them to do?
A.

Sometimes.

Sometimes they would just forget what the issue

was, sir.
Q.

Okay.

But none of those reports we just looked at

12

referenced prior--well I think one report referenced a prior issue,

13

but then after they got it resolved then everything was still back to

14

sort of normal?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

So between the chits that you are filing, the DD 510s with

17

the brig----

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

----the request for assistance from your chain of command,

20

when those were submitted either the brig and or the chain of command

21

answered them?

22
23

A.

Normally, yes, or minor administrative things for you know,

clothing issues, for the magazines, books, those issues they were

3695

07578

1

normally dealt with if not rapidly within a decent amount of time,

2

sir.

3

Q.

Okay.

But in none of these requests you never asked the

4

chain of command to assist you with changing your POI status or you

5

did?

6

A.

I did, sir.

7

Q.

But that then never got resolved?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

But then it was never documented each time, each week?

10

A.

Yes, because whenever we got to the question--because on

11

every single one there’s a question regarding the POI status, the SR

12

status, normally if we were going through the questions sometimes we

13

would stop at that one, are you still on POI?

14

still working through your counsel, et cetera, we would talk about,

15

you know, where that process was and everything else.

16

the time when we would normally ever discuss it, sir.

17

Q.

You know, are you

So, that was

So, during those discussions you were never--you never

18

reached out to them and said, hey listen, can you all help with

19

whatever it takes to get me off this status?

20

A.

I did convey that, yes, sir.

21

Q.

You did?

22

A.

Early--Within I don’t recall how early it was but, you

23

know, I did talk to Captain Casamatta frequently about it because he

3696

07579

1

was very concerned about the fact that I was on restriction status.

2

Captain Casamatta in particular would always ask me about that, sir.

3

Q.

Ask you about it but I guess what I’m--what I’m--what I

4

don’t understand and I’m trying to understand it and mostly for

5

Colonel Lind to understand is, he was concerned about it, you all

6

would have discussions about your POI status?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

I mean, it’s clear from the checklist that prevention of

9

injury was actually written in on the right side and----

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

----you would have discussions about that?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

But at what point were you reaching out to the chain of

14

command that was visiting you each week to say, it needs to be

15

changed, I’m not suicidal?

16

A.

Yes, yes, that’s the gist of the discussion right there,

18

Q.

But it wasn’t documented?

19

A.

Well, we checked in the box, I mean, we--once--I mean, we

17

sir.

20

had there was a--there was a lot of other things going on and we

21

assumed--we also assumed that our conversations were being recorded

22

as well so we thought, you know, check the box, you know, and I

23

thought--I mean, I don’t know--I don’t know how Captain Casamatta and

3697

07580

1

First Sergeant Williams documented the other stuff, but the form, I

2

mean, we just went through the form to make sure that all, that all

3

basis were covered every single time, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

But it wasn’t a pencil-whipping for instance?

Like,

5

just, I’m sorry, it wasn’t that you sat down with Captain Casamatta

6

or First Sergeant Williams and simply just went through real quick

7

and checked everything----

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

----so you still went through the questions?

10

A.

Every single time, yes, sir.

11

Q.

You had an opportunity to document whatever it is you

12

needed to do--whatever you wanted to make sure was documented and

13

then you signed the form but never reaching out and saying that----

14

A.

Well, it’s a checklist, sir.

15

Q.

Well, it is except for there are certain areas at like the

16

bottom of what else do you need from the chain of command where

17

things were written down all the time.

18

A.

Right.

Well, issues that--issues that--to remind Captain

19

Casamatta or First Sergeant Williams if, you know, if there was

20

something that was being brought up that we couldn’t resolve on the

21

spot, like I said, or that we hadn’t covered before, then yes, those

22

were documented.

3698

07581

1

Q.

Are you aware that when in the January timeframe when you

2

submitted the chit to the brig and then you talked to Captain

3

Casamatta and Captain Casamatta then went to the brig officials----

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

----after you requested it?

6

A.

Absolutely, yes, sir.

7

Q.

So, he went to the brig officials to say explain the POI

8

issue to me?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

But that happened in January 2011?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

And it was documented on the form?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

So, you are saying today at least that that also happened

15
16

all before January 2011?
A.

I don’t know.

I did talk to Captain Casamatta.

Again I

17

don’t--I don’t recall--I’m not privy to, you know the communications

18

of Captain Casamatta and the brig so I assumed that whenever I bring

19

up--I assumed that whenever I brought up the issue to Captain

20

Casamatta he was going to see what he could do and, I mean, there

21

wasn’t a lot he could do about it.

22

not an officer there, so he’s only looking out for me from the unit

23

standpoint in that sense.

3699

He doesn’t work at the brig, he’s

07582

1
2

Q.

Okay.

Well, thank you.

Now, I would like to direct your

attention to something completely different.

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

It’s--You mentioned it yesterday is these voluntary

5

statements that you were asked to fill out.

You did and didn’t fill

6

out at times.

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Are you familiar with what I’m talking about?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

They were--I mean, I didn’t know what to think

10

of them at first but I eventually figured--I mean I figured that they

11

were equivalent of a sworn statement because of the way it was set

12

up, sir.

13
14
15
16

Q.

So, before you talk about any particulars, could you please

explain for Colonel Lind what the voluntary statements are?
A.

Well, they were documents that the Navy uses to document a

statement.

So, it’s essentially a sworn statement, sir.

17

Q.

And when were they used?

18

A.

When were they used?

I don’t know.

The Department of the

19

Navy uses it for all kinds of stuff and I mean that broadly.

20

know specifically what it can or should be used for, sir.

21

Q.

I don’t

Well, you normally had them when there was an exception to

22

like rec call was cut short, you chose to watch TV instead of going

23

to rec call.

That’s when you used them, correct?

3700

07583

1

A.

That’s whenever they--Whenever they said I had to fill one

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

That I did not--I was confused by that and I was

2

5
6

out.

uncomfortable with this particular document, sir.
Q.

Okay.

But in general that was--that was--without talking

7

about any specific document, yeah, in general that’s when they came

8

up while you were confined at Quantico was when you made a choice and

9

they wanted you to fill out a document to reflect that choice?

10

A.

It seemed like it.

11

Q.

So, the first one I would like to talk about and just to go

12

MJ:

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

15

MJ:

17

Yes, sir.

in chronological order.

13

16

It seemed like that.

Where am I going to find these?
Yes, Your Honor, I can----

If they are already enclosures to your filing you can just

tell me where it is.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

Ma’am, they might not be enclosures

18

or we’d have to search or we would have to search for them.

19

will be easier.

20

MJ:

This

Please also, Major Fein, if we are using any documents that

21

haven’t been entered into the record as enclosures please make sure

22

to have them marked.

3701

07584

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

Your Honor, the voluntary statements

2

are marked as Appellate Exhibit 426 Charlie.

3

First Class Manning 426 Charlie.

4

WIT: Thank you, sir.

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

6
7
8

Okay.

I’m handing Private

Just take a second and look at those.

Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:
Q.

As you see, Private First Class Manning, this appellate

exhibit they are actually in reverse chronological order----

9

A.

Okay.

10

Q.

----the top, so I’m going to start in chronological order

11

Yes, sir.

so from the bottom.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

So, the first--the first one we recorded was from 14

14

December 2010.

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And this is where you chose to forgo rec time because you

17

had left Quantico for the day and it was too close to dinner?

18

A.

Unfortunately yes.

19

Q.

And so you chose--instead you----

20

A.

Well, no, no.

This--On the 14th of December they did not

21

have the ability to do rec call for me so they told me to fill out a

22

voluntary statement.

3702

07585

1
2

Q.

Okay.

So they didn’t allow you to do rec call and asked

you to----

3

A.

They didn’t have enough time to do it, no.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

So they didn’t have enough time and they asked you

to fill out this statement?

6

A.

They ordered me to, sir.

7

Q.

They ordered you to fill out the voluntary statement?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

On 14 December 2010?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Let’s go to the next one please, dated 20 December 2010.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Now on this one this is where the statement says--the

Master Sergeant Papakie.

14

statement here that you wrote says that you voluntarily changed your

15

rec time and then this voluntary statement occurred?

16

A.

The one I’m looking at says--the 20th of December?

17

Q.

Yes.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

That is correct.

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

And then on--So let’s go to the next one, 21 December 2010.

22

A.

21 December?

So, it’s 43329 at the Bates stamp?

Yes.

3703

07586

1

Q.

Yes, 21 December, so this will be on the bottom-left Bates

2

number 43328.

3

A.

I don’t recall the circumstances regarding this one, sir,

4

but I think it was--I don’t know if it was snowy or whatever but I

5

wasn’t able to go to outdoor rec so they told me to fill this out.

6
7

Q.

Okay.

So they--they said you will not do rec time and you

fill out the voluntary statement?

8

A.

Yes, that’s how it went, sir.

9

Q.

All right.

10

The next in line, please, so this will be dated

25 December 2010.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Actually, I’m sorry, this one is dated 28 December, but on

13

25 December 2010, that was Christmas of 2010, you also chose to

14

shorten your rec time that day but refused to sign a voluntary

15

statement?

16

A.

Yes, sir, because it was getting--it was getting unusual

17

and I was uncomfortable because it has this section at the bottom

18

which I started to cross out where it says I have been sworn to the

19

statement by blank, and, you know, they were ordering me to fill this

20

out and I wasn’t comfortable because I didn’t--I was sure what the

21

legal status of this document was and they were telling me to do

22

something that I wasn’t sure was quite legal, sir.

3704

07587

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

Q.

Okay.

So on 25 December you decided or you refused to sign

a voluntary statement?
A.

On 25 December, yes, because again it was getting--I was

getting uncomfortable filling out these forms.
Q.

But you were allowed to not sign it, correct?

When you

refused they said--the brig said okay?
A.

They were not exactly happy about it.

I remember--I don’t

8

know who DBS was at the time but they--I mean they can’t force me to

9

sign a document and they started--I mean, they were--they were--and

10

the way I was receiving it was it was an order.

11

statement sign this, that was how it was initially going and then I

12

got uncomfortable and I started to wonder well, is this proper, sir.

13

Q.

Okay.

Here is a voluntary

So, then now the next one in the packet that was

14

signed 28 December 2010, so the Bates number on the bottom-left of

15

43327?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

So that one you did--you voluntarily chose to forgo rec

18

time because you wanted to watch a certain TV show?

19

A.

This is 3327?

That’s not what I’m reading?

20

Q.

3327?

21

A.

That’s what I’m looking at, 43327?

22

Q.

Yes, on the 28th of December?

3705

07588

1

A.

No, it says television call being secured due to medication

2

call and sleep medication being given at 2000.

3

because I was being given sleep medication I had to--I had to have my

4

television secured.

5

this, said, fill this out and that’s why I crossed through a lot of

6

this--I crossed out the sworn part because and I crossed out the I am

7

free and voluntarily and there was a lot of wording of this--of this

8

language that I crossed out and put initials by because it wasn’t

9

correct, sir.

10
11

Q.

I was being told that

So, they basically--so Sergeant Garnet gave me

Okay, so you weren’t going to sign a voluntary statement

with that sort of language that’s crossed off on this?

12

A.

Definitely not, sir.

13

Q.

And because you were ordered to fill one of these out?

14

A.

Correct, sir.

And that was the way I was taking this.

15

was--this was her is a voluntary statement fill this out.

16

wasn’t unambiguous or I forget which way it was.

17

Q.

Sure.

18

January 2011?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Bates number 43324.

I mean it

If you flip now to the next one in line from 16

Now, on this one it states or you

21

wrote, securing recreation call due to conflict of scheduling of

22

weekly television shows and then you signed this one?

3706

I

07589

1

A.

Yes, there was a television show that I wanted to--that I

2

was wanting to see so I asked if I could--if

3

call later and this is on the 16th, I asked if I could have

4

recreation call later but then later Sergeant Garnet again came by

5

and gave me this and told me to fill this out.

6

sworn language so I didn’t cross it out because there is no sworn

7

language at the bottom.

8
9

Q.

I could have recreation

It didn’t have the

But you did cross out the same portions where you initialed

on the top?

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

Changing it from voluntary to involuntary to something

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And then on, if you could flip again, on 6 February 2011?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

This seems to be similar, refusing rec call due to

12

17
18

else?

scheduled clash between TV?
A.

Again, it was the same--it was a very similar thing where

19

I--I mean normally I would be able to, you know, they would give some

20

options as to when recreation would be and TV call and recreation

21

call, depending on the calls of the day were clashing so, sometimes

22

they would give me this at the end of the day and say, you have not

23

been, you know, you have been--I don’t remember what days these were

3707

07590

1

on, sir, but there were times whenever I felt--I really felt

2

uncomfortable filling these out because it seemed like I was--it

3

seemed like it was not--it was not proper for me to be filling these

4

out but I didn’t want to refuse an immediate direct order that

5

wasn’t--I didn’t know what to do in those circumstances, sir.

6

Q.

But on Christmas Day you did refuse to sign it?

7

A.

On Christmas Day, yes, I did.

8

Q.

So, previously you had refused to sign it?

9

A.

I had refused to sign it and it was uncomfortable.

10

-There were some problems with that.

11

Averhart came to talk to me about that.

12

Q.

Okay.

It was-

I think Chief Warrant Officer 4
I don’t remember.

Now I would like to talk to you, because that’s

13

sitting right here, but on 16 February 2011, you also made a choice

14

to forgo rec time because you were out of the brig all day at the

15

706?

16

A.

That’s not correct, sir.

17

Q.

Okay.

18
19

And what did happen that caused you refuse a

voluntary statement?
A.

Well, because I was being told to fill out a voluntary

20

statement for a recreation--to cancel recreation call that I did want

21

to attend.

22

Q.

Okay.

3708

07591

1

A.

Because I would come back from the 706 board and they would

2

be settling down for the day and they would be like, oh, you know,

3

your recreation call, you know, you are not going to be able to do

4

it, fill out this voluntary statement.

5

Q.

But the voluntary statement does--it is--could be sworn

6

like it has the language at the bottom that you crossed out.

7

could have actually written what you just said on the form, swore to

8

it, signed it, and given it to them?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

I do not voluntarily do this.

11

A.

No, sir.

12

Q.

You couldn’t have done that?

13

A.

My understanding is that I could not, sir.

14

So, you

They would

throw away the form if I did that.

15

Q.

Did they tell you that?

16

A.

They threw--I mean Sergeant Garnet on one particular

17

occasion took the form, ripped it up, and gave me another one and

18

said, fill this out the way I say that you fill it out.

19

Q.

Okay.

So you--So, they told you or they would discard it

20

when they told you if you wrote under sworn statement saying that I

21

absolutely want a rec call and you took it away from me, then that

22

would be torn up or destroyed?

23

A.

Exactly, sir.

3709

07592

1

Q.

Okay.

2

A.

I mean I was very, and I brought this up with Mr. Coombs

3

and, you know, I was just told not to--not to fill any--not to deal

4

with any of these voluntary statements.

5

sir.

It was very uncomfortable,

6

Q.

So, on 27 February 2011, you were sick at the time?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And you did not have rec call that day, the record shows it

9

was because you voluntarily didn’t want to have rec call?

10

A.

I think that one was a legitimate.

11

Q.

But you still refused to sign a voluntary statement?

12

A.

Yes, I had advice of counsel not to fill out any more

13

voluntary statements starting around this early-February timeframe.

14

Q.

That was 27 February, but okay, so that one was----

15

A.

No, following this last one with--where I had been sworn, I

16

had been sworn to the statement but Corporal Stockton after that

17

happened, I brought that up with Mr. Coombs and he advised me not to

18

touch any voluntary statements any more.

19

Q.

Okay, so that was on the 27 February?

20

A.

That is correct, sir.

21

Q.

Did you tell the brig that?

22

A.

They knew, yes.

3710

07593

1
2

Q.

Okay.

So, originally when presented the option to sign a

voluntary statement you opted for it?

3

A.

There were earlier voluntary statements that are similar to

4

that except they are not in the records for instances like that, yes,

5

sir.

6

Q.

But you did originally sign them?

7

A.

Yes, I would fill them out and for things that I was

8

actually voluntarily say, no, you know, I don’t want to do this, but

9

there were instances where they started, around the December

10

timeframe, you know, where they would not be able to fill out, you

11

know, they would not be able to execute the recreation call before

12

TAPS, before you know the schedule change and they would give me the

13

form and I would have to fill--they would tell me I had to fill it

14

out and I figured--I was uncomfortable with this.

15

they were just trying to cover themselves for not being able to--for

16

not scheduling in the recreation call.

17

Q.

I didn’t know if

So, you weren’t aware though at the time that they were

18

making log entries and they had their own statements if you refused

19

to sign?

20

A.

Yes, I was definitely aware of that, sir.

21

Q.

So if you were aware that they were doing that, if you

22

refused to sign them, why would you be compelled to sign?

3711

07594

1

A.

Because they would give me these forms and they would stand

2

there, I mean, Sergeant Garnet in particular was one who was giving

3

me these forms and saying, you know, standing there and saying, this

4

is a direct order, you know, sign this voluntary statement.

5

I caved in a couple of times as you can see but after I changed the

6

wording and the language to--because I was not comfortable with

7

signing anything that looked like a sworn statement because, I mean,

8

a sworn statement is a very serious thing.

9

penalty of perjury as well, you know, I didn’t feel comfortable

I mean,

A declaration under the

10

because I wasn’t sure of the legal status of these documents because

11

I’m more familiar with Army sworn statements that have a lot more

12

language to it, a lot more boxes to fill in et cetera.

13

was more familiar with and these didn’t have a lot of that--those

14

boxes et cetera, it just--I wasn’t sure of the legal status of these

15

documents.

16
17
18

Q.

That’s what I

But that started in December of 2010, correct, because

before December you were signing them?
A.

Well, we have the records of these, yes.

I--There were

19

instances where--where I would--before this where I would fill out a

20

sworn statement--a voluntary statement not knowing it was a sworn--

21

not knowing that it could be used as a sworn statement, I don’t know.

22

Again, I don’t know the legal status of these documents.

23

don’t and, you know, I filled them out beforehand without issue

3712

I still

07595

1

because, you know, my recreation call would be secured because I

2

didn’t want to finish that recreation call.

3

the, you know, the November/October timeframe of 2010.

4

they started to not be able to fill that in and tell me that I needed

5

to fill these out, I got uncomfortable, sir.

6

these--these crossing outs and these awkward moments started to

7

happen, sir, was around the December timeframe.

8
9

Q.

Thank you.

We are talking about
But whenever

So, that’s whenever

Your Honor, I’m retrieving from the accused

what’s been marked as Appellate Exhibit 426 Charlie.

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Private First Class Manning, I would like to now bring you

12

to the time that you talked about yesterday of when you were--you

13

were standing at attention and parade rest naked in the morning?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

That was the morning of 2 March 2011?

16

A.

Early March, I don’t recall the exact dates, if you have

17

something to remind me that is great.

18

Q.

I actually don’t right at this second, so early March?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Would you please explain for the court----

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

----what the normal procedure was in the morning, time

23

wise?

Maybe this will--this will help.

3713

When were you woken up?

07596

1

A.

Okay.

0500 was--we would have Reveille, Reveille, Reveille

2

announced at 0500 in the morning normally, and then stand--if--

3

sometimes it would be immediately, stand by for count, sometimes we

4

would do a hygiene call where they would give us--they would give me

5

a razor and I would shave my face and then return it and then we

6

would have count.

7

count first, sometimes it was hygiene call first, sir.

8
9

Q.

Sometimes, it wasn’t always--sometimes it was

And that’s at 0500.

When did the count occur, after

Reveille, Reveille, Reveille?

10

A.

0501 as early as that, as late as 0520, sir.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

Yes, sir, and when stand by for count would be announced,

Did it just depend on when the counter came around?

13

sir.

14

counter, the Duty Brig Supervisor.

Typically it was done very quickly, sir.

And the DBS was the

15

Q.

So, Reveille, Reveille, Reveille?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And that’s waking everyone up?

18

A.

Yes, sir, and to turn the lights on.

19

Q.

And then--Turn the lights on, and then when were you given

20

your clothing back to put on after--at that point?

21

A.

On 3 March?

22

Q.

No, on the normal day?

3714

07597

1

A.

On the normal day, after I had--after I had my clothing

2

removed, post 2 March/3 March, it was sometimes as early as 0450.

3

Sometimes it would be after Reveille, Reveille, Reveille, so it would

4

be within a few minutes.

5

-well it wasn’t always.

6

before count.

7

Q.

And the clothing was put on the--where?

8

A.

It was put in the feed tray, where it’s the opening at the

9

Sometimes--Sometimes, it was always beforeAs for the first couple of days it was not

cell door, sir.

10

Q.

So, it was laid there, sometimes----

11

A.

Early in the morning, sir.

12

Q.

----when you woke up it was there?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And sometimes you woke up and it wasn’t there?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

And then it would be brought to you?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

MJ:

Major Fein, I don’t want to interrupt you, can I just get a

19

point of clarification?

Before the 2nd of March what was the status

20

of your clothing at night?

21

WIT: Well, I still had some--I still had underwear, ma’am.

22

MJ:

23

At any point before 2 March since you arrived did you have

anything more than underwear?

3715

07598

1
2

WIT: Well, I did, ma’am.
Your Honor?

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

MJ:

6

WIT: Okay.

7

Q.

8
9
10

Can you please rephrase the question,

I think you know where I’m going with this?
I do, ma’am.

I’ll let you ask the question.

Private First Class Manning, before 2 March you were still

allowed to sleep in your underwear, correct?
A.

Yes, I still had--I still had some undergarments and socks,

I think.

11

Q.

But not your entire complement of clothing?

12

A.

That is correct, sir.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

So, during that time prior to the brig ordering your

underwear to be removed----

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

----you--how was that clothing then given back to you, like

17
18

the sweats you talked about earlier?
A.

Oh, before it was--before 3 March it was placed--it was

19

usually--it was usually given to me within 10 to 15 minutes of

20

Reveille, Reveille, Reveille.

21
22

Q.

Okay.

So, is it the same way you just talked about, it was

either right before or right after but like 10 minutes?

3716

07599

1

A.

It varied a lot, sir, sometimes it was after count.

2

Sometimes it was before count, but, you know, I mean, sometimes I

3

would be standing--but I was always standing with--with clothing on

4

at that point, sir, whether it was a low-level of clothing or full

5

uniform.

6
7

Q.

I mean, that was the variation, sir.
And so what you testified yesterday was on that morning you

were ordered to stand at attention or parade rest naked?

8

A.

Parade rest, attention, and then parade rest again.

9

Q.

And you were specifically ordered to not have your clothing

10
11

on or to cover yourself because you didn’t have clothing?
A.

The wording of the statement, and I can’t see because I

12

don’t have glasses on so I can’t see who’s in the observation booth,

13

the door was cracked open and I stood with the gar--with the

14

prevention of injury blanket over me as I normally did whenever I was

15

on suicide watch, or suicide risk status for, then the door opened a

16

crack and a voice from inside from one

17

Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest and I’m--I asked again,

18

or you know, I was confused by this, I was not sure, I mean, I was

19

like, how do you want me to stand and he’s like, is that how you

20

stand at parade rest.

21

the blanket down.

of the guards said, Detainee

I understood that to mean, you know, to put

22

Q.

Okay, so----

23

A.

And so I put the blanket down.

3717

07600

1
2

Q.

So, the guard did not actually say, put the blanket down,

he said is that how you stand at parade rest?

3

A.

Is that how you stand at parade rest, Detainee Manning?

4

Q.

Detainee Manning, but not Detainee Manning, put the blanket

6

A.

Correct, it’s an implied task.

7

Q.

Sure.

8

A.

Well, I asked for clarification on that and I just got the

5

9

down?
It’s not a direct order.

But you implied it because it’s an implied task?

same statement again, same order.

10

Q.

Okay, so----

11

A.

Because I mean, it’s not an illegal order or anything like

13

Q.

I understand.

14

A.

Well, I mean it wasn’t like the--the wording I had been

12

that.
I’m just trying to----

15

given by the staff was that any order that you are given unless it

16

immediately causes you danger or harm, is a proper one until you--and

17

that you execute it, you know, unless it is life, limb or eyesight.

18

I think the--I think tarantula jar was an example that was used a

19

lot, you know, if a guard orders to you put your hand into a

20

tarantula jar, don’t, you know, don’t do that.

21

order but anything else apart--anything else that’s not dangerous--

22

that’s not immediately harmful or dangerous you execute and then

23

complain about it later, sir.

3718

You know, refuse that

07601

1

Q.

Okay.

So, I understand that.

What I’m trying to

2

understand and really not--try to have Colonel Lind understand is

3

that, so that morning you stood up and you had your POI blanket on

4

you?

5

A.

Correct, sir.

6

Q.

You didn’t have your underwear on because you were ordered

7

the day before to get----

8

A.

I didn’t have glasses either, sir.

9

Q.

Or your glasses.

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

And then the DBS----

12

A.

Not the DBS, the guard inside the booth.

13

Q.

The booth we saw on the video?

14

A.

The observation booth, yes, sir.

15

Q.

Then ordered you to or made the comment, that’s not how you

16

And you had your blanket on you?

stand at parade rest----

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Detainee Manning?

19

A.

Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade rest?

20

Q.

And you responded?

21

A.

I responded, I mean, I mean, I was looking for the correct

22

rank as well because I can’t see the guard, so I don’t know if it’s a

23

corporal I don’t know----

3719

07602

1

Q.

Sure.

2

A.

----what rank it is but I guessed at lance corporal and I

3

didn’t get corrected on that, so I said, excuse me lance--or could

4

you rephrase that, lance corporal.

5

something to the effect of, Detainee Manning, you know, is that how--

6

is that how you stand at parade rest.

7

if it was with a blanket over you.

8

or not but it was certainly applied that take the blanket off.

And he said, Detainee Manning, or

You know, but I don’t remember

I don’t recall if that was said

9

Q.

But did you seek clarification?

10

A.

I did, sir.

11

Q.

And then what did you ask or say?

12

A.

That was how--That was how--That was what I did, I was

13

like, can you rephrase, I mean, is that what you want me to do, you

14

want me to set the blanket down and there was a moment where--where

15

that was yes, you know, I did seek clarification.

16

now.

17
18

Q.

So you specifically asked them, do you mean you want me to

put the blanket down?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Okay.

21
22
23

I remember that

Yes, sir.
So you didn’t say, what you want me to do is you

want me to put the blanket down?
A.

Well, I have to word things from sort of third person,

because it is a brig, so, I would have to word it as in, Detainee

3720

07603

1

Manning, requests clarification on an order or something like that,

2

something to that effect, sir.

3
4
5
6
7

Q.

But you would then say, Detainee requests clarification on

that order?
A.

Correct.

But I don’t know if that is the exact wording I

said, I was groggy, I mean it was 0500 in the morning, sir.
Q.

No, I understand, unfortunately understand.

But so you

8

would have to ask it in third person, which does seem confusing.

9

you answer in third person but are you saying basically Detainee

10

Manning needs the order repeated?

Is it Detainee Manning----

11

A.

I don’t recall the exact phrasing of the----

12

Q.

Okay.

13
14

So,

Then what was the response back from the guard that

was in the hut?
A.

Essentially yes.

I mean, place the--I mean it wasn’t place

15

the blanket down, but I understood, I think I asked, do you want me

16

to put the blanket down?

17

Q.

But you would have to ask in third person?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

That seems confusing right now.

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

So, you would ask----

22

A.

Very confusing.

Yes, sir.

3721

07604

1

Q.

2

blanket down?

3

A.

4

----in third person, do you mean you want me to put my

Yes, Detainee Manning requests whether I need to place the

blanket down, sir.

5

Q.

And then you--so you asked that?

6

A.

Something to that effect, yes, sir.

7

Q.

And then the response you got back was, yes?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

So, it wasn’t about you not standing at parade rest, you

10

are saying it was actually then about you standing without clothing

11

on, or without the blanket on, excuse me?

12

A.

Well, the phrasing of the question from the very beginning

13

was, you know, Detainee Manning, is that how you stand at parade

14

rest.

15
16

Q.

Sure, sure, but as you said before, you were implying

something from there--from the original question?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

Because you could be holding a blanket a lot of different

19

ways that could be a modified parade rest or not?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And this guard was standing in the guard shack?

3722

07605

1

A.

Sitting down in a chair.

2

showed--I--I can’t really see a lot.

3

the mirror, I mean, it’s a window.

I could hear the wheels but never
I see the mirror, what I call

4

Q.

Sure.

5

A.

But I see the reflection and then there’s the door, and the

6

door is cracked open and they usually sit on a wheelie chair with

7

five wheels and--and so they--whoever it was, I don’t know who it

8

was, sir, opened the door, and said, Detainee Manning, is that how

9

you stand at parade rest.

10

Q.

Did they close the door afterwards?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Or were they standing there in the doorway?

13

A.

They had----

14

Q.

Or sitting, excuse me.

15

A.

Sitting with the door cracked open, sir.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

Got it.

Do you remember being later that morning,

not to long after Staff Sergeant Terry showing up?

18

A.

I do, yes, sir.

19

Q.

And you remember him counseling you that morning that you

20

should and will never stand naked without clothing?

21
22

A.

No, I don’t recall that, sir.

that.

3723

I don’t recall it being like

07606

1
2

Q.

Okay.

We’ve gone for about an hour.

break?

3

A.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I could deal with one, sir.
Your Honor, the United States moves for a 15-

5

minute break?

6

MJ:

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

8

MJ:

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

10

Do you need a comfort

MJ:

15 minutes?
Yes, ma'am.

All right.

Any objections?
No, Your Honor.

Court is in recess until 2:15, 1415.

11

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1400, 30 November 2012.]

12

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1425, 30 November

13

2012.]

14

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

15

record reflect that all parties present when the court last recessed

16

are again present in court.

17

Major Fein?

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

19

[The accused, Private First Class Manning remained on the witness

20

stand.]

21
22

CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued)
Questions by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN] continued:

3724

07607

1
2

Q.

Private First Class Manning, I would like to know--direct

your--I guess for a frame of reference your time in Iraq?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

When you were still in Iraq on 27 May 2010, yesterday you

5

testified that that was when you essentially said you showed up and

6

you were ordered into you CHU?

7

A.

I never went--I never saw my CHU after that.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

In an interview room at the brigade headquarters building,

10

You were ordered into a room?

yes, sir.

11

Q.

And where did you then sleep at night?

12

A.

They brought me to a completely different CHU, sir.

13

Q.

And that’s where you stayed or slept with two guards?

14

A.

At night, yes, sir, two guards and two visitors, yes, sir.

15

Q.

Okay, sir.

Oh, excuse me.

You were also ordered--at the

16

same time you were in that other CHU you were ordered not to access a

17

computer?

18

A.

Yes, that’s correct, sir.

Well, not immediately I did not

19

know that, it was not until the next day after I woke up the

20

following day that I was nearby to a computer and I was about to go

21

use it and then they told me that I could--that I was not supposed

22

to, sir, so that is whenever I knew that, sir.

23

Q.

So, on 28 May?

3725

07608

1

A.

Yes, the following day, sir.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

And then on 28 May, that same day, you had requested

Specialist Schwab from the S-2 shop to stop by your CHU that night?

4

A.

Schwab, yes, 2100, sir.

5

Q.

To stop by that evening.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

MJ:

Overruled, go ahead.

8

A.

Yes, I did ask her to come to my--I asked her if she was

9

Objection, Your Honor, relevance?

available and I--and I told her where the--which CHU it was because

10

there is a trailer and the it’s split in different sections so I told

11

her which LSA it was in, Life Support Area it was in, et cetera.

12

Q.

And she showed up when you asked her to that night?

13

A.

She came a little earlier, yes, so I think it was like

14
15
16

2030, sir.
Q.

And when she showed up you handed her a piece of paper with

your Gmail account user name and password on it?

17

A.

Yes, I did.

18

Q.

And you asked her to check your email for you?

19

A.

Yes, and I also asked her if she had any books I could

20
21
22

read, that I could borrow, sir.
Q.

And she went, left, checked the email and came back and

reported to you what she found?

3726

07609

1
2
3
4

A.

She told me what the subjects were in the inbox and she

also got me The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was the book, sir.
Q.

And then, Private First Class Manning, once you were in

Kuwait, you contacted your aunt to update your Facebook page?

5

A.

I did, yes, sir.

6

Q.

And it was to update it--while you were in Kuwait you had

7

her update it to say, some of you may have heard that I have been

8

arrested for disclosure of classified information and to unauthorized

9

persons, see and then it’s the website for the Apache video?

10

A.

I did not.

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

MJ:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Objection, Your Honor, again, relevance.

What is the relevance?
Your Honor, the relevance is yesterday Private

14

First Class Manning testified that when he left to Iraq and moved to

15

Kuwait he was sort of out of it and doesn’t really remember what

16

occurred and there’s an entire dialogue yesterday about that.

17

MJ:

Overruled.

18

A.

Can you repeat the question?

19

Q.

Absolutely.

20

When you contacted your aunt in Kuwait you

asked her to post to Facebook----

21

A.

I did, to post to Facebook, yes.

22

Q.

And you asked her to post, some of you may have heard that

23

I have been arrested for disclosure of classified information to

3727

07610

1

unauthorized persons, see, and then it’s the website for the Apache

2

video disclosure?

3

A.

I did not tell her to write that, no.

She wrote that.

I

4

told her to put a posting on my Facebook to let everyone know that I

5

was alive and well, just to make sure that everyone that knew,

6

because my concern was that nobody--because, if I’m going 72 to 96

7

hours--72 to 96 hours without updating anybody, I mean I was worried

8

that somebody might think that I might have passed--that I might have

9

gotten killed or injured or something like that, sir.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And really to focus on visitation and visitors.

13

Now, you are back to the brig.

You were

allowed to have visitors while you were at Quantico?

14

A.

Yes, I was.

15

Q.

And you chose who can and cannot visit you?

16

A.

Yes, I did, sir.

Well, to an extent.

I didn’t know--I

17

didn’t always know if somebody was coming and I was--I wasn’t sure if

18

I was able to refuse a visitor once they had been placed on the list

19

so that was--that was a grey area that I wasn’t sure of, sir.

20
21

Q.

But--That makes sense.

But you also you had--It was your

decision whether someone was allowed to visit you at all?

22

A.

That is correct, sir.

23

Q.

If they weren’t on your list they could not visit you?

3728

07611

1

A.

Unless it was an official visit then I definitely could not

2

refuse them.

3

Q.

So you could choose if you wanted to add anyone from a

4

family member to a member of the press, U.S. Congressmen, anyone you

5

choose you could decide to put on your list?

6

A.

No, the--the brig order specified that it was only persons

7

that I knew, and persons that I was like friends with or family

8

members.

9

business relationships or anything like that.

I wasn’t like business--it specifically said, you know, no

10

exact ordering but something to that effect.

11

intended for friends and family.

12

Q.

I don’t remember the
So, it was mostly

So, actually I think it’s, correct me if I’m wrong, the

13

brig order said unless you had a prior relationship with an

14

individual----

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

----that you could not add them to your list?

17

A.

Correct, sir.

18

Q.

But Chief Averhart permitted you to add people who you

19

didn’t have a prior relationship with to your list?

20

A.

I wasn’t sure of that, sir.

21

Q.

But you were allowed to add people to your list that you

22
23

didn’t have a prior relationship with?
A.

I wasn’t sure of that, sir.

3729

07612

1

Q.

When presented----

2

A.

Because I didn’t have a document that overrode the brig

3

orders.

4

Q.

5
6

The brig order was the guidance that I had.
Sure.

So when presented with the option, specifically you

chose not to add, for instance, Juan Mendez from United Nations?
A.

No, he is not a friend or family member.

So, my

7

understanding was that I could not add him, sir.

8

add him then I would--then I could face discipline, you know, I could

9

face disciplinary action.

10
11
12

Q.

Okay.

And if I were to

And is that the--You could have added, for instance,

Representative Kucinich to your visitor’s list?
A.

I have no idea about that.

That’s a grey area.

I mean, I

13

don’t know this person personally, but you know, the members of

14

Congress have an official, you know, they have a--they are working in

15

an official capacity at the U.S. Cap--the U.S. Capitol.

16

part of--they are a separate branch of government, so I didn’t know

17

whether or not--I know there’s legislative liaison for the different

18

branches and things but I didn’t know what that was.

19

he category of, for the adding of people to the list, he did not fit

20

in the category of someone I had a prior relationship in terms of

21

friends or family, sir.

3730

They are

He did not fit

07613

1

Q.

Okay.

So, I’m still talking about visitors, but on 16

2

March 2011, you instructed the brig to remove many people from your

3

list when you actually spit out the document?

4

A.

No, it was--what it was it wasn’t necessarily that I was--

5

that I wanted to remove them, it was that I wanted to remove two

6

people in particular that I remember, and they gave me an entirely

7

new set of forms and, you know, a lot of the information was bad on

8

some of these forms, I mean, they had been written when I first got

9

there, and some of it just contained garbage information like

10

addresses that were totally wrong or out of date, names that were

11

misspelled, so I transferred only--I transferred some of the names

12

over and some of the addresses over that I knew could potentially

13

visit me and that I knew that the information, as far as I knew

14

correct, sir.

15

Q.

Well, I would like to go through some of these names to

16

understand how these would fall in.

17

your cousin Becky?

So, the first name removed was

18

A.

That’s correct, sir.

19

Q.

And then Daniel Clark was removed?

20

A.

I don’t--I thought he was still on--I thought I moved him

Q.

Well, who’s Daniel Clark?

21
22

over.

3731

07614

1
2
3
4

A.

Daniel Clark is a friend of mine that I knew in 2000--

starting in 2009, sir.
Q.

You removed, and you talked about yesterday, a gentleman

named David House?

5

A.

That is correct, sir.

6

Q.

And who is David House?

7

A.

David House was a, I mean, he was an acquaintance that I

8

had met through Danny Clark, or Mr. Daniel Clark, sir.

9

Q.

Would you describe Mr. House as an activist?

10

A.

I have no idea.

I mean, he certainly became one.

11

I first met him I thought he was just a regular guy.

12

sort of an acquaintance of mine through a friend.

13

Q.

John Houdly, you removed him?

14

A.

I did, sir.

15

Q.

Jason Edwards?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Toby Correnta?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Drew Pearagout?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Nate Kennedy?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

Jordan Davis?

3732

Whenever

I saw him as

07615

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Joshua Silvy?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

George Lawson?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Chris Wood?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Paul Steven Lopez?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

Glenn Greenwald?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Jeff Patterson?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And Trevor Fitzgibbons?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Who is Trevor Fitzgibbons?

17

A.

He is--He is somebody I met through, it was actually, Mr.

18

Coombs had introduced me to Mr. Fitzgibbons.

19

Q.

And who was he?

20

A.

I mean, I wasn’t really sure of his status.

He was some

21

kind of--he was some kind of like PR consultant that we were looking

22

at using--potentially using.

23

Q.

But you said you met him through Mr. Coombs?

3733

07616

1

A.

That is correct, sir.

2

Q.

So, he was someone you didn’t know prior to confinement?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

But you were allowed to have him on your roster?

5

A.

From what I understood, yes, sir, because--I mean, I didn’t

6

know whether he was, I didn’t know what status he was in but Mr.

7

Coombs said that it was fine.

8

sir.

9
10

Q.

So, I didn’t--I mean, I don’t know,

But when you added him to the list that you had to do for

mail and visitors it wasn’t rejected by the brig?

11

A.

That is correct, sir.

12

Q.

Now still on the topic of visitors, you did receive

13
14
15

visitors periodically through your pretrial confinement at Quantico?
A.

Yes, I don’t recall exactly the dates and times or anything

like that but I did.

16

Q.

Did you average, would you say almost every weekend?

17

A.

No, it felt like longer, sir.

18

Q.

But you were permitted Saturdays and Sundays only or

19

holidays to have visitors?

20

A.

That is correct, sir.

21

Q.

And when you met with these visitors these meetings were

22

recorded?

3734

07617

1
2

A.

To my understanding, yes.

Starting in like September

timeframe, yes, sir.

3

Q.

4

booths?

5

A.

But privileged meetings were not recorded in the recording

To my understanding, yes.

We did it in a separate booth

6

and that did not have a sign that said this booth is subject to

7

monitoring and recording or something to that effect, sir.

8
9
10
11
12

Q.

And like we talked about before when the ones that were

recorded you signed a consent form and so did the other participate?
A.

To my understanding for some of the visits with civilians,

yes, that was the case.
Q.

And the privileged ones with defense counsel as we have

13

spoken about before even psychiatrists, chaplains, those weren’t, you

14

were signing consent forms and to the best of your knowledge they

15

weren’t recorded?

16

A.

I thought the--I thought that they could be monitored.

I

17

mean, well, I didn’t think but the brig thought that they could be

18

monitored by guards for a period of time where they could sit in the

19

room but not necessarily record anything.

20

Q.

So, for instance, we’ll just, I guess, you weren’t signing

21

a consent form even with like forensic psychiatrists, Doctor Hocter,

22

Doctor Malone, showing up, Doctor Russell, there were no forms being

23

signed consenting?

3735

07618

1

A.

That is correct, sir.

2

Q.

And you even had for instance, you just mentioned that you

3

were introduced to Mr. Fitzgibbons by Mr. Coombs.

4

even able to sit in those meetings but had to still sign a consent

5

form since he’s your attorney?

6
7

A.

I guess--I guess that’s the case.

Mr. Coombs was

I didn’t--I wasn’t privy

to the other person signing anything.

8

Q.

So, you didn’t witness them on the other side of the----

9

A.

That is correct.

10

Q.

----side of the glass?

11

A.

That is correct, sir.

So, I didn’t know if they were

12

signing these documents and I didn’t always--I wasn’t always given

13

these forms to fill out, sir.

14

Q.

Thank you.

So, Private First Class Manning, what I would

15

like to now do is talk to you about some of these meetings and

16

conversations you had with these individuals while they visited you

17

at Quantico.

18

A.

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Okay, sir.
Your Honor, for judicial economy purposes any of

20

these recordings were provided in Enclosure 49 on a CD to the court.

21

And if there’s a question I will be able to cite the exact hour,

22

minute, second for the court.

3736

07619

1
2

Q.

Private First Class Manning, on 18 September 2010, you met

with Mr. David House and Mr. Daniel Clark?

3

A.

18 December?

4

Q.

18 September?

5

A.

Okay.

September, yes, sir.

6

Q.

2010.

They asked you how are they, the brig treating you?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And you answered pretty good, it’s not bad.

9

It’s not Oz or

something like that?

10

A.

That is correct, sir.

11

Q.

And Oz is a HBO show about prison?

12

A.

Yes, with Maloney and some other actors.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

Or Melony, I think.

15

Q.

And then--But your answer was it’s pretty good.

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Your answer to the----

19

A.

Yes, sir, I was trying to reassure them, yes.

20

Q.

And then when asked about Mr. House and Mr. Clark about

16

It’s not

bad?

21

your--specifically about your prevention of injury status you

22

specifically stated three things:

3737

It’s unusual, then you followed it

07620

1

with my circumstances are not common, and then that they, the brig,

2

are not too bad and I understand it all?

3

A.

Yes, yes, that’s correct, sir.

4

Q.

So, at the time when you had Mr. House and Mr. Clark there,

5

rather than mentioning anything else this whole recording about your

6

alleged treatment you were actually at that time more focused on

7

hiring a private investigator to find a fundraiser for you?

8

A.

I considered that, yes, sir.

10

Q.

Told them what, I’m sorry?

11

A.

I had told them that I was thinking about that, sir.

9

Well, I had told them that,

yes.

12

like, wait, a private investigator?

13

Q.

14

even allude to your--to negative treatment by the brig----

Absolutely.

I’m

Can you clarify the----

So, rather than ever mentioning anything that would

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

You actually had most of the conversation focused on hiring

17
18
19

a private investigator to find a fund raiser for you?
A.

A potential.

And also just a, he was a friend that I had

had previously who just dropped off the radar, sir.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

I mean--I wasn’t quite serious about it, but I said--I

22

So, on 18 September----

think I said to Mr. Clark that it was Mr. Clark that I was directing

3738

07621

1

it to, that, you know, it wouldn’t seem like a bad idea.

2

of a, you know, can you help me find this person.

It was more

3

Q.

Okay.

And so, but that was on 18 September 2010?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

So on that day when you were talking to friends you were

6

more concerned about other issues than ever talking about your

7

treatment at the Quantico Brig?

8

A.

Absolutely, sir.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

I would like to direct your attention to a few weeks

later, 25 September 2010.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

On 25 September 2010, you met with your aunt?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

At that very end of the meeting your aunt spoke about, or

15

asked you was there anything else you can think about that you needed

16

other than a little cash?

17

Just tell everyone I’m doing fine?

At that point you said, no, not really.

18

A.

That’s correct, sir.

19

Q.

And then your aunt mentioned or replied, I will.

20
21

raising money.
A.

They are

So that’s good?

I guess.

I’m not sure if that’s the--that’s the--I’m not

22

sure myself, I don’t recall if that’s the exact wording but--but to

23

get me money to fill in my brig account.

3739

07622

1

Q.

Okay.

Your account to get haircuts and----

2

A.

Exactly, because----

3

Q.

----other sundry items?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And then--And then when your aunt continued talking about

6

to raise money, you said, I mean it is still going to be a while

7

before the end of this confinement?

8

A.

That is correct, sir.

9

Q.

And then at the end of the conversation you said, tell

10

everyone I’m doing fine?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

So, during this entire conversation on 25 September 2010,

13

with your own aunt----

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

----you never mentioned about any type of treatment at

16

Quantico other than everything, well, excuse me, you’re doing fine?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Now jumping a month or actually two months ahead, 13

19

November 2010, you met with your aunt again?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And during that meeting the only complaint you had was that

22
23

no one had actually visited you at the brig in almost a month?
A.

That’s correct.

3740

07623

1

Q.

And didn’t actually say anything about the brig itself?

2

A.

That’s correct, sir.

3

Q.

Okay.

So on that 13 November 2010, again, there was

4

nothing else going on that you felt compelled to tell your aunt about

5

at that point?

6

A.

Well, I wasn’t going to talk--I wasn’t going to talk to

7

anybody under the recording circumstances about my confinement

8

conditions.

9
10

Q.

True but yesterday you talked about that POI was the

highest priority on your mind every single day?

11

A.

Yes, sir, it was.

12

Q.

But you didn’t take the opportunity so far to this point

13

when you were visited by David House and Danny Clark in early

14

September, your aunt again, your aunt again, to ever talk about your

15

conditions at that point?

16
17
18
19
20

A.

After they installed the recording equipment, that is true,

Q.

So the chance that you actually had to talk about it and

yes.

have it memorialized if it was said, you chose not to?
A.

Under those recording circumstances, yes, sir.

I directed

21

all the confinement and correctional issues that I had through my

22

counselor to give to family members and friends.

3741

07624

1
2

Q.

Okay.

So, on 21 November 2010, you met with Mr. David

House?

3

A.

That is correct, sir.

4

Q.

The conversation started with updates on political and

5

journalist network support for your developing case?

6

A.

On his end he was talking about it, yes, sir.

7

Q.

Okay.

And then Mr. House told you that Mr. Coombs had

8

asked you to get all the supporters together or asked him and keep

9

them quiet for now so future pushes could be made for an aggressive

10

PR campaign?

11

A.

He might have said that, yes.

12

Q.

And at that point in your conversation you were more

13

focused on adding people to the public affairs list by giving

14

recommendations and even taking the opportunity to talk about your

15

own confinement?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

Under those recording conditions, yes.

17

Q.

And you even explained under those conditions to Mr. House

18

that--that you have been--you have writing time but you have chosen

19

not to write?

20

A.

That is correct, sir.

21

Q.

Mr. House asked you if you needed anything, asked you if

22

you needed anything and you only discussed wanting cash and books.

23

Cash for that account and more books?

3742

07625

1

A.

Yes, sir, that is correct.

Because they could--From what I

2

remember they could leave small amounts of cash into the--at the

3

brig, I mean, like they could leave a $20.00 bill or something like

4

that, sir.

5

Q.

But not like, you couldn’t use an ATM for money?

6

A.

That’s correct.

7
8

I didn’t have a--it wasn’t like a swiping

machine or anything like that, sir.
Q.

But also during that same conversation rather than

9

discussing any treatment, any treatment or alleged mistreatment you

10

were receiving, you rather--you chose to discuss the possibility of

11

having a WikiLeaks organization lawyer assisting Mr. Coombs?

12

A.

I did not discuss that.

13

Q.

Well, you had a back and forth with Mr. House.

He said it

14

to you and then you had a discussion on whether it would be a good

15

decision or not?

16

A.

That is correct.

I mean, I--I was trying to avoid saying a

17

lot during these conversations.

18

mostly trying to listen, yes, sir.

19

Q.

I was mostly listening, sir.

I was

So, in that regard when you did have a chance to at least

20

talk, in this one conversation on 21 November 2010, you even were

21

talking to Mr. House and asked how the glasses looked on your face

22

because you weren’t used to and you hadn’t normally been wearing

23

glasses, but then started choosing to wear glasses?

3743

07626

1

A.

2

wear glasses?

3

Q.

4

I’m not sure what you mean by that, sir.

That I wanted to

No, what you had asked Mr. House was how the glasses were

looking because you started wearing them again?

5

A.

Oh, yes, I did ask him that, yes.

6

Q.

And then at the very end when Mr. House finally asked you

7

how you were doing you simply answered you are doing alright and are

8

pretty stable?

9

A.

Yes, sir, that is correct.

10

Q.

And I quote, you actually said, better than a significant

11

portion of the population?

12

A.

Yes, I did say that.

13

Q.

And then Mr. House, on that date 21 November commented to

14

you that you actually--it doesn’t even look like you have lost that

15

much weight?

16

A.

That is correct, sir.

17

Q.

And then you responded something to the effect of I’ve lost

18
19
20
21
22
23

some muscle but not really much weight?
A.

Yes, my muscle mass was turning to flab, but yes, something

to that effect, sir.
Q.

And then you were asked by Mr. House on whether you had to

perform hard labor, and you replied, no, you just sit a whole lot?
A.

That’s correct, sir.

3744

07627

1
2

Q.

And then he commented that seems that that is a very

sedentary life style and you followed with, it’s not too bad?

3

A.

That’s correct, sir, that’s what I said.

4

Q.

And after Mr. House said that that you must be running out

5

of things to do by sitting all day, you simply explained that it

6

wasn’t that bad, like the people back in the Victorian Age.

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

Because you could specifically sit there and think a lot.

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

Now, Private First Class Manning, I’d like you to think

11

back to Christmas Day as you did before, 25 December 2010?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

You were visited by your cousin, Rob?

14

A.

Rob, yes, sir.

15

Q.

And on that day, 25 December 2010, you were asked whether

16

you had seen yourself--or he had seen you on TV?

17

A.

Something to that effect, yes.

18

Q.

And then your cousin then talked about he stated that yes,

19

the TV is talking about your bad treatment in jail?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And then you stated that, yes, Mr. Coombs was very well

22
23

spoken, and had some good talking points?
A.

Yes, sir.

3745

07628

1
2

Q.

But you didn’t even take that opportunity to discuss at all

with your cousin, your confinement conditions?

3

A.

That is correct, sir.

4

Q.

But you did focus on future talking points for the media?

5

A.

I’m not sure what you mean by that question.

6

Q.

Well, rather than talking about confinement conditions you

7

were actually commenting on the different ways that talking points

8

could be given, not about confinement but, generally family members

9

talking to the media?

10

A.

I didn’t want family members taking to the media.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

That is what I wanted.

13

That was the general thing was I

didn’t want family members talking to the media.

14

Q.

And then so, later----

15

A.

But it----

16

Q.

Go ahead, please.

17

A.

But I was just--I was uncomfortable with family members

18
19

talking to the media generally, sir.
Q.

Private First Class Manning, later during that same visit

20

rather than discussing any conditions in the facility on 25 December

21

2010, you were focused on different pictures of yourself on Facebook?

22

A.

That is correct, sir.

3746

07629

1
2
3

Q.

You had a dialogue with your cousin and asking if certain

ones could be taken off and others could be put on?
A.

Yes, I--because from what I understood somebody that was in

4

the family had access to that because there were pictures that were

5

up there that’s--that had other people in them and I was concerned

6

about that.

7

Q.

Now I would like you to think back to 5 February 2011?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

This is the meeting where Mr. Coombs brought Mr. Trevor

10

Fitzgibbons to meet you for the first time?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

You spoke to Mr. Fitzgibbons and Mr. Coombs for more than

13

one hour?

14

A.

Probably, yes, sir.

15

Q.

And during this conversation you spent all of the time

16

focusing on developing your own public image and public affairs

17

campaign and fundraising and never spoke about your confinement

18

conditions?

19

A.

I think that was the gist of the conversation.

I don’t

20

know how much I took part in it.

21

but that was--I tried to play a passive role in listening, sir.

22
23

Q.

Okay.

I don’t have--I don’t recall that

And then at the end of the conversation actually as

you recollect, Mr. Coombs left?

3747

07630

1

A.

That is correct, sir.

2

Q.

So, it was just you and Mr. Fitzgibbons?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And at that point Mr. Fitzgibbons said, thanks for letting

5

me help in any way I can and that he has been trying to use David

6

House on the television but even at that point--even at that point

7

when talking about David House on the television you never mentioned

8

anything about your alleged confinement conditions?

9

A.

That is correct, sir.

10

Q.

You both even joked about drinking Coke, that you were

11

actually were getting caffeine in the brig?

12

A.

I--It was--it was Volt that I was drinking.

That was the

13

particular drink that they had at the OCS.

14

used the word Coke but Volt was the actual drink the green, sort of a

15

greenish-yellowish color, very similar to Mountain Dew.

16

I don’t recall, maybe I

Q.

That was the caffeinated drink that you could get at the

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And then Mr. Fitzgibbons told you that none of your

17

20

brig?

conversations with David House or him would ever go into the press?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So, you knew, at least at that point you could tell him

23

something?

3748

07631

1

A.

Well, we were still being recorded.

2

Q.

You are?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And you know it’s being recorded and kept?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And you didn’t even take that opportunity to discuss

7

anything about your confinement issues?

8

A.

That is correct, sir.

9

Q.

Now, I would like you to think back to 27 February 2011.

10

A.

Okay.

11

Q.

You met with Mr. Fitzgibbons and Mr. House again together?

12

A.

Yes, that’s correct.

13

Q.

Now this is 27 February, it’s right before the March

14

incident and it’s right before the New York Times March article?

15

A.

I don’t know what those are, sir.

16

Q.

Okay.

Well the article that I’m talking about is what was

17

used of Colonel Oltman that the defense counsel was using about the

18

email of Colonel Oltman and Colonel Choike earlier this week?

19

A.

Okay, sir.

20

Q.

During that meeting actually you had a cold.

This is the

21

same time that you voluntarily did not do rec call because you were

22

feeling ill?

23

A.

That is correct, sir.

3749

07632

1

Q.

And actually David House had the flu and you all laughed

2

about how one had the other and were afraid you would infect each

3

other?

4

A.

We were in a non-contact booth though.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And the only answer you gave was that you didn’t feel well

8
9
10
11

Then Mr. House asked you how you were doing?

because you were sick and really wanting antibiotics?
A.

I don’t recall the antibiotics part but I needed mediation

for that.
Q.

And then later, or further Mr. House provided you many

12

details about the effort to try to put forth experts and others on

13

your behalf in public?

14

A.

Yes, he did--I mostly listened in, sir.

15

Q.

And then he told you that he was really psyched because it

16

took a couple of weeks to really try to recruit and find good people?

17

A.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And during that conversation rather than again discussing

19

any of your confinement conditions with him you discussed your public

20

image being changed from just David House making comments to other

21

supporters----

22

A.

Yes----

23

Q.

----or people trying to help?

3750

07633

1

A.

---that was--that was my sort of last ditch attempt at

2

trying to see if--if Mr. House was actually taking heed of my

3

requests through counsel to stop talking to the press, sir.

4

Q.

Which he eventually did stop?

5

A.

I don’t recall that.

7

Q.

But once again you did not discuss your confinement status

8

at all?

9

A.

That is correct, sir.

10

Q.

So, you even have someone who is in the press with you and

6

We just stopped contact all together,

sir.

11

you have Mr. Fitzgibbons there, a PR specialist, and you still chose

12

not to ever discuss your confinement conditions with them?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And despite what was being reported on the press on 3

15

March, we will talk about it in a moment, the email I just spoke

16

about----

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

----you were actually spent a lot of his time even talking

19

about many different random topics like the Sex Pistols rock band and

20

other unrelated topics?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And then Mr. House explained to you how propaganda is

23

really useful especially in the television world?

3751

07634

1

A.

Yes, sir.

We had an intellectual conversation.

I think he

2

was in--I think he was quoting some early 20th Century works or

3

something like that,

4

Q.

Later in the conversation you coughed and asked if it was

5

the food.

6

you feel ill?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And you replied the food is good, not bad.

9
10

You were probed to see if it was the food that was making

went through and talked about the Swiss Steak and the mashed potatoes
you had for dinner?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And stated, I mean, it’s not bad at all.

13

In fact you

It’s not the best

I have had in the military but it’s not bad?

14

A.

That’s correct, sir.

15

Q.

You were also asked by Mr. House whether you can get

16

exercise and you responded yes, but you stated not over the past few

17

days because you were sick?

18

A.

That is correct, sir.

19

Q.

And that was the time that you voluntarily elected not to

20
21
22

do rec call and still refused to sign that statement?
A.

Yes, sir.

There was still uncertainty as to the status of

those documents and whether they were sworn statements or not.

3752

07635

1

Q.

Okay.

So, we just spoke about that email that was

2

referenced yesterday, Private First Class Manning, it was a New York

3

Time’s article, it started with, do you remember this article about

4

your treatment, allegedly standing for 7 hours naked and that Mr.

5

House commented on your conditions?

6
7

A.
article.

I don’t--I have never actually, me personally, read the
I know of it, sir.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

In early March, yes, sir.

10

Q.

In that article Mr. House mentions that you were being

11

You know it was published on 3 March 2011?

pressured to cooperate with the government?

12

A.

That was his--those were his words, sir.

13

Q.

Correct, and he also said in his words that he met with you

14

the previous weekend and that’s what you told him?

15

A.

Did I say that, sir?

16

Q.

That’s what I’m asking then, did you have a discussion with

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

Mr. House about being forced to cooperate with the government?
A.

I have never--I have never had--I have never stated that to

him, no.
Q.

Okay.

But that was just part of the PR campaign that was

going on?
A.

I didn’t--I wasn’t exactly sure what was going on.

I was

hearing theses--I was--for I understand--I mostly am trying to avoid

3753

07636

1

talking to Mr. House except for talking about, you know, things that

2

had nothing to do with either the facility, the case, the, you know,

3

anything surrounding that.

4

about that, sir.

5

Q.

I tried myself to avoid speaking anything

Which makes sense but later and we’ll get to that in a

6

moment, but right now I’m just talking about 27 February 2011.

7

so up to this point from the very first visitors, recorded visitor

8

conversations you had in September 2010 all the way up to this 27

9

February 2011, you never told one person or discussed with one person

10

And

your confinement conditions?

11

A.

That’s correct, sir.

12

Q.

On 13 March 2011, you also met with Trevor Fitzgibbons and

13

your cousin?

14

A.

That is correct, sir.

15

Q.

The conversation started talking about how David--Mr. David

16

House is in England at that point, or was over in England?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And actually from what you mentioned before, the

19

conversation then basically went to that you were concerned about the

20

message that David House was putting out there?

21

A.

Definitely, yes, sir.

3754

07637

1

Q.

Because in your words, you were hoping, or you mean that

2

what he’s actually--you were concerned with what he was actually

3

thinking or what he was just saying?

4

A.

Yes, sir, that is correct.

5

MJ:

Wait a minute, I didn’t--ask that question one more time.

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

Q.

8

Yes, ma'am.

During this conversation you had with Mr. Fitzgibbons and

your cousin, you stated that you had asked them about Mr. House?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And you had asked because you were hearing things and

11

seeing things and like you were getting worse?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And you were concerned that that is what Mr. House actually

14

thought or just what he was saying?

15

A.

Yes, I was concerned about that, yes, sir.

16

MJ:

I thought you asked an either/or question, am I confused?

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I asked a poor question, Your Honor, and that’s

18

why I reasked it the way I did.

19

either or but I will try it one more time, Your Honor.

20

MJ:

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

22

MJ:

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I did not think I was doing an

Maybe I’m--I can be completely confused.
Yes, ma'am.

Just try it one more time.
Yes, ma'am.

3755

07638

1

Q.

You stated that you were concerned of one or the other

2

thing but this was your one concern.

3

Mr. House actually thought that, thought that you were being treated,

4

based off of what he was saying, or that----

5

Your concern was that whether

A.

Or if he was just saying that and not actually believing

7

Q.

Correct.

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

MJ:

Okay.

Q.

And at the same meeting you were very concerned as you

6

10

it.

11

mentioned earlier that your family was talking to members of the

12

press?

13

A.

Yes, definitely.

14

Q.

And you were very concerned because your father was talking

15

to the media, members of the press?

16

A.

Yes, sir, that is true.

17

Q.

And your cousin was reassuring you that the rest of your

18

family was trying not to--to keep everyone at bay from talking to the

19

members of the press?

20

A.

Yes, well, apart from my father, yes, sir.

21

Q.

So, you were very concerned at the time and the time you

22
23

removed everyone’s names from the list---A.

Yes, sir.

3756

07639

1

Q.

----you were very concerned about family issues?

2

A.

Definitely, yes, sir.

3

Q.

But also during this time you never talked about your

4

actual confinement status?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

You never talked about any type of treatment in the brig?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

You never commented on any way guards interact with you?

9

A.

That is correct, sir.

10

Q.

And you kept reassuring everyone that you are okay?

11

A.

That is correct, sir.

12

Q.

In fact during this meeting you said that everything was

13

going fine except that you are not getting much sleep?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And then you talked really about March Madness?

16

A.

Definitely.

17

me, yes, sir.

18

Q.

19

That is one of the highlights of my year for

So, based off more than the 20 recordings at Quantico, from

18 September to 10 April----

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

----you never shared your alleged concerns, you never--to

22
23

anyone who visited you in person?
A.

That is correct.

3757

07640

1

Q.

And you had the opportunity?

2

A.

Certainly, yes.

3

Q.

And that includes even your company commanders and your

4

first sergeant except for the times it was documented?

5

A.

I did talk about the confinement conditions to First

6

Sergeant Williams and Captain Casamatta routinely and repeatedly,

7

sir.

8

Q.

But never to the degree of documenting it?

9

A.

That is correct, sir.

10

Q.

And never submitted the IG complaint in the box to get--to

11
12
13
14
15

have a higher level look at what’s going on?
A.

I didn’t--Again, I wasn’t sure how the Inspector General

portion worked for it, sir.
Q.

And you also chose not to speak to the brig officials when

given the opportunity at the C&A Board?

16

A.

I did go to the--I did start to go to the C&A Boards.

17

Q.

When you went you then elected not to talk to them when

18

they asked you to explain why it was that you were--that--why it was

19

that you made one statement and then changed the statement.

20

A.

I did attempt to explain that, sir.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

I guess this is a final question, Private First

Class Manning, yesterday when Mr. Coombs was asking you about Mr.

3758

07641

1

House and other visitors you specifically said you wanted to make

2

sure you didn’t stir anything up in the press.

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

But then why were you having all these people come over,

5

members that were representing you in the press the entire time at

6

Quantico?

7

A.

To gauge--to listen in to what they had to say for certain

8

and to give them some reassurance that, you know, that I’m not dying

9

or anything like that, sir.

10

Q.

So, when that all happened----

11

A.

So, to give them a visual reassurance of and to sort of

12
13
14

keep them close to me, sir.
Q.

Okay.

But again every time that happened you never took

the opportunity to talk to them about this?

15

A.

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

18

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

19
20
21
22

Definitely not, sir, no, sir.
Thank you.

No further questions.

Redirect?
Yes, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

PFC Manning, why did you refer to the guards and the

facility as very professional?

3759

07642

1

A.

They were always very professional except for, I mean,

2

there were small occasions where they would leave their role as a

3

sort of, because they would--as they were working they wear a duty

4

belt and a cover and that--whenever they are in that they are

5

playing--they are playing the role as a Marine and as a Marine

6

Correctional Specialist and they never seemed to leave that role when

7

they were wearing that cover and that belt, sir.

8
9

Q.

Did you believe that the guards and their activity and how

they were treating you other than maybe on 18 January was

10

professional?

11

A.

Absolutely.

12

Q.

And can you tell Colonel Lind why?

13

A.

Well, they never--I mean, they never spoke, you know,

Definitely very professional, sir.

14

degradingly apart from in the, you know, there was the military

15

bearing, in particular the Marine Corps style of military bearing,

16

which can be sort of aggressive but it is still very professional.

17

mean they never--they never left that.

18

professional.

19

describe it.

20

Q.

21

It was always very

I don’t know how other--I don’t know how else to

And with the guards being the people that you interacted

with the most----

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

----why then did you say the facility was professional?

3760

I

07643

1

A.

Again, I mean, the facility is professional.

I mean, it

2

runs, you know, everything runs on time.

3

everything runs on--everything runs on time.

4

by what’s written in the books, you know, they go by what is written

5

down.

6

what they are told and they--they very infrequently deviated from

7

that--from what I saw at the facility, sir.

8
9
10
11

Chow runs on time,
They go by the--They go

They go by whatever orders are written down, they do exactly

Q.

Did you ever have any problems with any, again setting

aside 18 January, did you have any problems with any of the guards as
far as how they were treating you?
A.

I mean, there was some minor instances here and there of a-

12

-of an uncomfortable moments.

13

particular guard that didn’t particularly--I knew--I got the vibe

14

from him that he didn’t particularly like me or wanted to be around

15

me but, you know, I didn’t--we just avoided each other essentially

16

and we didn’t talk very much, sir.

17
18

Q.

I mean, I knew that there was one

Was this any of the guards that were involved in either the

18 January or to your knowledge the 2 March incident?

19

A.

No, sir, this guard was Corporal Racktilia.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

So, now let’s talk about the voluntary forms.

said you received advice from counsel to not fill those out?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And can you tell Colonel Lind about that?

3761

You

07644

1

A.

Yes.

I started--I mean, the facility started to give me--I

2

mean, they made--they would give inmate--they would give me as an

3

inmate this form, this voluntary statement, they would give it to me

4

anytime that I--that I wanted to do something that was different from

5

the schedule or something like that.

6

know, if I wanted to--I mean, it was more for like refusal of eating

7

and things like that which I never--I never--I never to my knowledge

8

filled out a sworn statement that I’m refusing chow or anything like

9

that but that’s an example of one where it would be used.

So, if I wanted to change, you

And

10

recreation call was another one where if you flat out refused

11

recreation call they would ask you, I mean, initially they would ask

12

me to fill one out and if I didn’t--if I was not feeling well or if--

13

or if, you know, I just didn’t feel like going outside or doing

14

recreation call then I would fill it out without a problem.

15
16
17

Q.

So, then once you received the advice of counsel not to

fill out these forms when it really wasn’t voluntary on your part?
A.

Right, there was a moment, I don’t recall when it was

18

probably toward the December timeframe whenever they started making--

19

they went to these voluntary statements routinely and they kept on

20

putting them in front of me for times when I wasn’t getting, because

21

there were days in which I would not get rec call and, you know, I

22

would just miss it and that happened before, you know, and I don’t

23

recall what days and I would mention it and I would get compensated--

3762

07645

1

I think I would get comp time, like if I had a sunshine call one day

2

then I would get a--if I missed a sunshine call one day then I would

3

get a recreation--I would get a sunshine call that’s like 30 or 40

4

minutes the next day as a sort of--as a sort of comp time for missing

5

that.

6

they started giving me these sworn--these voluntary statements and I

7

don’t know, it has this swearing verbiage at the bottom that I wasn’t

8

sure what the status of this document was and I was getting

9

increasingly concerned about having been--having been presented these

10
11

And that’s early on but there was a certain moment whenever

and what they were for.
Q.

Okay.

So, once I gave you that advice, did you ever have

12

an exchange with Chief Barnes about whether or not you would be in

13

trouble if you didn’t fill out--if you crossed out or refused to fill

14

out this form?

15
16

A.

Yes, sir.

There was a--she--she said something to the

effect that it’s against Navy Regulations to me.

17

Q.

What?

18

A.

To cross out and initial portions that were removed the

19

voluntary language and the--the, you know, and I don’t have the

20

verbiage in front of me but I mean, to basically cross out and

21

initial on the language that I was uncomfortable with and that the

22

fact that I was not allowed to make--she also said that I was not--

3763

07646

1

that I had to fill these out.

2

refuse to fill them out, sir.

3

Q.

I was not allowed to just flat out

I’m showing you Enclosure 26 to the government’s response,

4

I believe it is Appellate Exhibit 259.

Do you see--if you would, go

5

ahead and open up to, let’s just go to any one of the first--in this

6

form you said either the first sergeant or the commander would ask

7

you questions and you would kind of go through it with them?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Now, we get to, let’s use the 10 September form, which is

10

Page 8 of 87 on that.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Do you see where you start to talk about the prevention of

13

injury and suicide watch?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And what are you--how do you respond to the question of, do

16

you understand why you are on suicide watch or injury prevention?

17

A.

No, well, I checked no, that’s what I see.

18

Q.

And what do they write down there?

19

A.

Not aware of why, 30 minutes ago, 10 September, oh, that’s

20
21

a separate one.
Q.

Okay.

Not aware of why.
So, and I could spend some time going through all of

22

this with you, but I would just ask the court to take a look at each

23

of these.

On 22 separate occasions, PFC Manning indicates why he’s

3764

07647

1

not aware of the reasons for why he is on POI.

2

addressing this with the first sergeant or the commander, what would

3

their response be?

4

A.

So, when you were

That, I mean, we would just--I mean, we went over it

5

because we talked about it a lot, in terms of updates.

6

wasn’t an update on anything we just--we just--I would say, no, I

7

don’t understand and we would move on to the next question.

8

Sometimes, I mean, it wasn’t always the case but we would verbally

9

talk about it, sir.

10
11

Q.

Okay.

Now, you also on another occasion, this is kind of

fast forwarding a little bit to 11 February.

12

A.

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

If there

Yes, sir.
Ma’am, it would be Page 61 of 87 on the

appellate exhibit.

15

MJ:

Okay.

16

Q.

Do you see where you respond to your--well, at least your

17

commander, in this case it’s Sergeant First Class Jones wrote down

18

your response on the POI?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And what do you say in response to whether or not you know

21

why you are on suicide risk/POI?

3765

07648

1

A.

It says, do you understand why you are on suicide watch or

2

prevention of injury--or injury prevention, and I check in the box,

3

no, or Sergeant First Class Jones does.

4

Q.

And what else does Sergeant Jones write?

5

A.

He doesn’t write anything in the slot right there, it just

6
7

says, injury prevention 6 months.
Q.

Okay.

So when your command was coming to talk to you about

8

this you were at least addressing with them the fact that you didn’t

9

know why you were on POI?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

What was, from your understanding, you tell Colonel Lind

12

your understanding of once you raised the issue with your counsel how

13

we were going to try to handle the issue of you being on POI and MAX

14

custody?

15

A.

Yes.

Yes, well, we I mean, we looked at it from the

16

vantage point of we wanted--I wanted to get off of POI and the best

17

way to accomplish that legally was to exhaust my administrative

18

remedies and that was to go through each different step in the

19

process and, you know, and then reach that conclusion, you know.

20

figured we would get there about, you know, a few--we would check on-

21

-we would check on a couple of these boxes in terms of administrative

22

exhaust--or exhausting administrative remedies and eventually the POI

23

restriction would be lifted.

3766

We

07649

1

Q.

All right.

So before I advised you on filing claims or

2

doing anything what was the first thing informally that we talked

3

about possibly doing to get you off of MAX and POI?

4
5
6
7

A.

Just talking to the staff and talking to, in particular it

was the healthcare provider in particular that I was talking to.
Q.

Did I inform you at that point what I would be doing to try

to get you off of MAX and POI?

8

A.

I don’t recall.

9

Q.

Do you call me ever saying I was going to talk to the trial

10
11

counsel about this?
A.

Yes.

We had discussed this over the phone and--and you--

12

and you I mean, you said that you would then, because I brought it up

13

through my counsel, through you, sir, because I brought it up through

14

you, you said, hey, this is something I need to bring up with trial

15

counsel and see--and see what they are doing on their end about--or

16

what they can do about this on their end.

17

Q.

And I know it’s been a little while but do you recall kind

18

of what I was telling you was happening from what I was able to do

19

for you?

20

A.

You emailed them.

You emailed I remember then Captain

21

Fein, now Major Fein responded back and said that he was going to

22

look into the matter.

3767

07650

1

Q.

And with regards to, I guess, the actions ever being taken

2

informally when did that come to a head in your mind where those

3

steps were failing and we needed to be more formal?

4

A.

I put in a 510 in December and I have always vocally to the

5

staff, you know, and sort of asking questions.

6

discrepancy between, I remember I go this discrepancy between what

7

Master--now Master Sergeant Blenis was saying and what Captain Hocter

8

was saying about why I was on POI status so now I have no idea what

9

the justification was because the medical health provider saying one

10

thing and the counselor saying another thing and I remember I put in

11

a 510 regarding that to, I believe I directed it to Gunnery Sergeant

12

Blenis, then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, and I never heard back on it.

13

I don’t know what happened to that form in mid-December.

14

-nothing ever came up with that I talked to you about the fact that I

15

put that in and we decided to go forward--I thought you meant, I

16

think I misunderstood because I put in another 510 to the commander

17

but I think you, as I found out earlier, that you sent a memorandum

18

detailing the exact same thing, but from counsel.

19

me requesting from the commander to review it but----

20
21

Q.

I got this

Because we-

So, it was still

And do you know if we received any sort of response from my

memorandum directly to Chief Averhart?

22

A.

I did--I don’t recall.

I don’t recall what that was, sir.

23

Q.

And after a period of time----

3768

07651

1

A.

Obviously nothing happened, sir.

2

Q.

And after a period of time we filed a 138 complaint.

3
4

What

did I tell you about that process?
A.

From what you said and from what, you know, doing, you

5

know, I think you gave me some paperwork on the Article 138 process,

6

and so I had that, but it was just very general was that, you know,

7

we take a commander, it has to be a commander that makes a decision

8

and whether or not--and I would have to believe that I was wronged in

9

them making that decision in some way according to the statute.

And

10

then--And then we would bring that up to the next highest level--or

11

the next higher level to the general court-martial--all the way up to

12

the general court-martial convening authority and to the service

13

secretary eventually.

14

Q.

And when I was explaining the process to you the--if you

15

got denied at every step of the way all the way up to the Secretary

16

of the Navy in this instance, what did I tell you we would do next?

17
18

A.

We would file a writ of extraordinary relief to the Army

Court of Criminal Appeals.

19

Q.

What was our goal there?

20

A.

It was to get off of POI status, sir.

21

Q.

And obviously we didn’t have to do that because you got

22

moved, right?

23

A.

That is correct, sir, we accomplished our goal.

3769

07652

1
2

Q.

Trial counsel asked you a lot of questions about the family

visits that you got and the conversations that you had?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Do you want to tell me why you didn’t want to talk about

5

your confinement conditions when family and friends visited you?

6

A.

Two reasons, one, I didn’t want family to--I didn’t want my

7

family to be worried or concerned about me.

8

front of them and they can see, they can clearly see that I’m, you

9

know, in restraints and everything else and I could see that they are

I mean, I’m sitting in

10

uncomfortable with what they see and I didn’t want to bring that up.

11

I mean, they see that I have two Marines behind me and I didn’t want

12

them to--I didn’t want them to have to experience much more of that.

13

I didn’t want to bring it up.

14

sir.

It was like the elephant in the room,

15

Q.

What were you concerned about if you brought that up?

16

A.

I was also concerned that they might--they might--they

17

might end my--they might secure my visits and say I did something

18

wrong because you weren’t--it was understood that you weren’t really

19

supposed to talk about what’s going on in the facility.

20

if that’s a rule or anything but it was generally understood--I

21

understood that it was probably not a good idea to talk about the

22

facility like, you know, any specific details about it to visitors.

23

First--For both security reasons, you know, about the whole process

3770

I don’t know

07653

1

and everything and time--and dates and times and, you know, transport

2

issues and things like that.

3

you know, because I figured that would be a very quick reason to end

4

those visitations would be for security reasons, sir.

5
6
7

Q.

I didn’t want to get into the details,

Now, why did you choose not to write a lot as far as

sending out letters?
A.

Well, I didn’t have--I mean, I was able to visit family.

8

was able to have family visit, I mean, I got that backwards.

9

couldn’t leave so I couldn’t visit them.

I

I

And I could see them and so

10

I preferred the fact that I was in--because I was in that area and

11

most of my family are in or were available to visit, I didn’t see the

12

necessary--I didn’t see it as being necessary to have to write a lot.

13

And then, you know, I didn’t want the facility to--because and the

14

few times I did write something they would scrutinize every single

15

word and ask me what I meant and if I was trying to use code word or

16

something like that.

17

writing anything because I knew the guards would go through it, sir.

18

Q.

So, I was really--I was really uncomfortable

And there’s a question and it caused me a little bit of

19

confusion because Major Fein asked you about you saying, it was, how

20

do I look at wearing glasses again.

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

My understanding is that you need glasses.

23

glasses?

3771

Do you need

07654

1

A.

I do.

I wear--I’m nearsighted.

I would wear contact

2

lenses but, you know, correctional facilities don’t typically allow

3

you to keep those unless you don’t have any other means until you can

4

get glasses, sir.

5
6

Q.

Okay.

So, what you meant is that you normally would wear

contacts and now you are wearing glasses again?

7

A.

That is correct, sir.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

So, I asked him how I was looking.

10
11
12
13

That makes sense.
I was just trying to

avoid the big, you know, issues.
Q.

Got you.

Facebook photos.

You wanted certain Facebook

photos taken down, or what was the concern there?
A.

It was just family and I didn’t want, you know, a lot of

14

people to go through my personal photos and stuff.

15

have a--I didn’t have a public, I mean, if you had access--only

16

friends or friends of friends had access to my Facebook account and I

17

kept that, you know, so that way if you searched my name in 2009, you

18

wouldn’t be able to find my Facebook or anything like that and I--

19

because I didn’t want people--I didn’t want to spread too much of my

20

pictures and things of what I was doing.

21

because more people were having access to this and some people would

22

use--some people that were friends, and I didn’t have access to my

23

Facebook account at this time and I still don’t, but I would have a

3772

I mean, I didn’t

And I wanted to--And

07655

1

person that was a friend start to copy pictures from my account,

2

start to copy messages that were posted in 2009 and 2008 that were up

3

there.

4

because people already had exact verbatim copies of everything after

5

that point.

6
7
8
9

Q.

I was uncomfortable with that but I didn’t--I gave up on that

So what you mean is you were uncomfortable with your

Facebook being out in the public?
A.

The public, public, because, I mean, I know Facebook is

public but I had restrictions on my account, sir, in 2009 and early

10

2010 that, you know, I even considered having somebody destroy--

11

delete the account but it became no longer a priority.

12

somebody had already verbatim copied everything and copied all of the

13

images and everything else that I didn’t see the point.

After

14

Q.

Okay.

So, when someone copied everything then it was----

15

A.

It was too late at that point.

16

Q.

That became public then.

17

A.

I--Somebody was going to make--somebody was going to copy--

18

somebody was going to make it public and it eventually it did.

I

19

think there is a verbatim of everything including an entire copy of

20

my friends list out there.

21

people that were--to get targeted for being associated in any way,

22

shape, or form with me, sir.

That was another thing, I didn’t want

3773

07656

1
2
3

Q.

Okay.

Now, trial counsel also asked you some questions

about fundraising, what were your concerns about fundraising?
A.

I don’t know.

I mean, I don’t recall exactly what I was

4

saying, but they are doing most of--I mean, I’m trying to keep it so

5

that they are doing most of the talking.

6

really involved in fundraising or anything like that, sir.

7

know that--you’re getting paid that is an agreement that we have,

8

that you are getting paid, sir.

I don’t want to--I’m not
I mean, I

9

Q.

All right.

10

A.

I don’t know how exactly that process works, sir, or

11

whatnot, but it’s working.

12

Q.

It is.

13

A.

And that’s what I wanted to know.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

I wasn’t going flat broke was my main concern.

16

Q.

I understand.

17

A.

In hiring you, sir.

18

Q.

So, the statements of not going to the press, you--the

I understand too.

19

trial counsel asked you questions about the fact that you told Mr.

20

House and Mr. Fitzgibbons that you didn’t want what you said to them

21

to go to the press.

22
23

A.

Why was that?

I didn’t want, you know, I didn’t want anybody to really, I

mean, I didn’t--I saw this as being a, you know, from a case vantage

3774

07657

1

point I wanted this--I want a proper court-martial.

2

court of public opinion is not where I wanted this to all take place.

3
4
5

Q.

I don’t want the

Did you ever give me, as your counsel, any guidance on

going to the press?
A.

Yes, limited.

I gave you a lot actually.

I remember that

6

I didn’t want you to do much and if you were--I remember you had Mr.

7

Fitzgibbons contact you or you contacted, I don’t know how that went,

8

I don’t recall.

9

understood it and the way I understood it was just to advise us on

10
11
12
13

But just as a consulting role is the way you

how certain things might look or whatnot.
Q.

Generally what was your guidance to me about speaking to

the press?
A.

My guidance to you?

Limited and text.

You know, if it was

14

going to be something that, you know, the full, you know, like your

15

blog I think it is, I mean, I obviously don’t have access to the

16

Internet so I haven’t seen it myself but I’ve seen print out of

17

things was that you just post things up and try to be as factual as

18

possible and try to be as neutral as possible, sir.

19
20
21
22

Q.

So, you didn’t want me running out to the press and making

random comments about it?
A.

Right and making interviews and basically grand standing

was the way I termed it to you, sir.

3775

07658

1

Q.

Now there was some confusion over a kind of a compound

2

question of trial counsel where mixing a couple of things regarding

3

Mr. House.

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And there were apparently some statements about your

6

overall health.

7

concerned about regarding Mr. House’s statements about how you looked

8

and what was going on with you in the confinement facility?

9
10
11

A.

What were--for the judge’s edification what were you

Well the--I was worried that the facility in particular was

going to use those to justify continuing the status, sir.
Q.

What about factually the statements of the fact that you

12

were looking worse and worse, you were non-responsive, all that

13

stuff?

14

A.

I tried to convey the fact that I was stable and that I was

15

improving, you know, from whenever I got there.

16

being held--I don’t know how objective they were, I mean, I was--I

17

was--that was why that particular question came up because I wasn’t

18

sure if that was what he actually believed or if that he was just

19

saying that to get press attention, Mr. House, in particular.

20
21
22
23

Q.

I mean, in terms of

And obviously you would agree that Mr. House and other were

just there trying to help you really?
A.

Maybe.

I didn’t know for sure.

I didn’t, you know, that’s

why I limited my association and I was trying to just be very careful

3776

07659

1

in what I said and how I interacted with them.

I mostly--Most of the

2

substantial conversations occurred through you so, you know, my

3

concerns and my criticisms came from you in particular to them in

4

regards to the confinement conditions and etcetera from my vantage

5

point.

I don’t know if that was a confusing answer.

6

Q.

No, that made perfect sense, thank you.

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

[END OF PAGE]

3777

07660

1
2

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL
Questions by the military judge:

3

Q.

PFC Manning, I have a few questions for you.

4

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

5

Q.

In the command visit notes that the trial counsel went

6

through with you?

7

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

8

Q.

As I went through them I looked at the 10th, the 19th, the

9

23rd, and the 30th of September; the 27th of October; the 10th, 14th,

10

23rd, and 30th of December; and the 10th, 5th, 14th, and 20th of

11

January; the 12th I’m sorry, the 4th, the 11th, the 12th and the 25th

12

of February; and then 2, 11, 18 and 23, and 31 March of 11; you

13

checked the boxes, or the box is checked that you don’t understand

14

why you are on POI?

15

A.

That is correct, Your Honor.

16

Q.

But the 7th, the 15th, the 21st of October and the 12th and

17
18
19
20
21
22

the 26th of November you say you do?
A.

I am not sure where that discrepancy comes from, Your

Honor, but I did say that I did not understand most every time---Q.

Well, it’s like a 6-week chunk where you say you do and

that’s what’s confusing me.
A.

Could you--what are those days, Your Honor?

3778

07661

1
2

Q.

The chunk where you say you do begins on the 7th of October

and goes to the 26th of November.

3

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

4

Q.

Absent the 27th of October where you say you don’t

5

understand.

6

difference?

7

A.

I guess I’m a little confused as to why there’s that

Well, I started to understand--from my advantage point I

8

understood that it was Captain Hocter’s recommendation that I remain

9

on POI.

So, I understood why--why that was--why I was placed on it

10

and that was because Captain Hocter was making the recommendation,

11

even though he was not making that recommendation.

12

understood.

13

time, Your Honor.

14
15
16

Q.

That was what I

I did not know what the recommendations were at that

And what changed to make you not understand on the 10th of

December?
A.

Through discussions with then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis and

17

through Captain Hocter, I started to get discrepancies and I was very

18

concerned at that point because--and I started--you know, I wasn’t

19

sure who to believe in terms of whether it was Captain Hocter that

20

was keeping me on prevention of injury status or making

21

recommendations to the commander to keep me on prevention of injury

22

status or whether it was the C&A Board or whether or not it was just

3779

07662

1

the commander making the decision independently.

2

understand.

3

Q.

I did not

When you talked to your chain of command during these

4

visits, I mean, was it just a check the box thing or did you say hey,

5

I don’t understand why I’ve been here 4 months, 6 months?

6

A.

Yes, it wasn’t just a check the box.

Sometimes it was, I

7

mean, I’m not going to say it was not a serious thing but because we-

8

-nothing had changed between the different command visits so I had an

9

understanding with Captain Casamatta, that you know, hey, I’m on

10

prevention of injury status and I would like to get off but I wasn’t

11

sure----

12

Q.

Did you ever ask him to help you?

13

A.

I did, Your Honor.

14

Q.

Did he?

15

A.

Well I wasn’t sure what he could do.

I mean, he’s in the

16

Army, on the Army side of the chain of command and he’s a company--he

17

was my company commander and he--I did get the impression that he

18

was, I mean, I always felt he was looking out for my best interests

19

and following up on whenever I had concerns or something, he would

20

follow up on it.

21

I was getting these communications with Mr. Coombs about that as well

22

that the command was, you know, at least still raising the concerns

23

through their chain of command.

And I would get these communication--I would think

I don’t--I think there was a

3780

07663

1

particular incident where, and I don’t know--I don’t have personal

2

knowledge of it, but where Captain Casamatta was talking to the

3

battalion commander and I think he went directly to Colonel Coffman

4

about the status I was in, Your Honor.

5
6
7

Q.

Did he ever say he would go to the brig personnel and ask

them to make the change?
A.

He--They always--They were always at the physical brig

8

itself and they would talk to the guards.

9

the guards behind me and they would sometimes talk to the DBS or to

10

the Quantico Brig commander whoever that was at the time whether it

11

was Chief Warrant Officer--Chief Barnes or Chief Warrant Officer 4

12

Averhart.

13

Your Honor.

14

Q.

I mean, they would talk to

But I mean, I don’t know what was in these conversations,

So at any time did Captain Casamatta or anybody in your

15

chain of command come back to you and say, I talked to Chief Averhart

16

and he told me that based on these following considerations this is

17

the reason you are still on POI?

18

A.

Yes.

I had talked to him and he had said that he had--he

19

was speaking to the brig staff about these issues every time and he

20

was looking into it and he kept on looking--and he kept on looking

21

into it and was being cognizant of what was going on and listening to

22

me, Your Honor.

That was the understanding that I had and in

3781

07664

1

particular with Captain Casamatta and First Sergeant Williams.

2

mean they were “tracking the issue”.

I

3

Q.

You arrive at Quantico at the end of July?

4

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

5

Q.

You are on suicide risk at that point?

6

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

7

Q.

What kind of clothing do you have at that point at night?

8

A.

At night I have underwear, t-shirt, and I don’t recall if I

9

had socks or not.

I think I did have socks though.

10

Q.

What happens at Reveille?

11

A.

I would have--I would be given--after Reveille would be

12

announced some period after that whether it was between 5 or 20

13

minutes, I don’t recall the exact number because it was a hygiene

14

call with that and I would have--I would be given either a duty

15

uniform or a--or I would be given their duty uniform because I didn’t

16

have sweats or anything at that time.

17

Q.

When they come--Like, where I’m going with this is when

18

they come through to count, what are you doing and what are you

19

wearing?

20

A.

I was wearing underwear, socks, flip-flops and I’m

21

recalling this a lot easier now because that was a better question, I

22

think, and I had a POI--and I was authorized to wear and expected to

3782

07665

1

wear a POI blanket over because I was just wearing underwear or just

2

underwear and a shirt, Your Honor.

3
4

Q.

So, you were--you are wearing underwear and a shirt and

you’re authorized to put the POI blanket over you?

5

A.

During count, yes, Your Honor.

6

Q.

How do you know you are authorized to do that?

7

A.

They instructed me that it was--that it was okay because I

8

was on suicide risk at that particular time and that they were aware

9

of that then--that I should cover up.

10
11
12

They didn’t want to be

demeaning or anything, Your Honor.
Q.

You testified earlier that during Reveille everyone has to

stand first at parade rest then attention then at parade rest----

13

A.

Right.

14

Q.

----are you supposed to--how do you do that with a blanket

15

or did they allow you to put the blanket over and hold it over your

16

front?

17

A.

It was--that is the position.

So, we were--I would

18

usually--I would typically have it covered and holding it, Your

19

Honor, and then----

20
21
22
23

MJ:

Let the record reflect the witness has his arms over his

chest.
A.

Yes, so it would be covered and then my legs would be

spread during parade rest, and at parade rest with--and then I would

3783

07666

1

bring them together for attention but still with the arms over the

2

chest, Your Honor.

3

Q.

When you go to POI what do you have at night?

4

A.

I think I was given a--I don’t exactly recall but I think

5

I’ve had, there was handling instructions but I think I was

6

authorized a pair of shorts so I didn’t--that mooted the issue in

7

terms of having to have a blanket for--for standing by for count and

8

count, Your Honor.

9
10

Q.

All right.

So, 3 March, the morning of, walk me through it

again?

11

A.

On 3 March they announced count or they announced----

12

Q.

Well, before we get there let me just ask a couple of

13

questions.

14

Reveille?

How many guards are in the brig right around or before

15

A.

I have no idea, Your Honor.

16

Q.

Or in the observation room?

17

A.

In the observation room there was usually between two and

18

four Marine Corps personnel.

19

Q.

At night?

20

A.

At night at day, usually it was staffed.

21
22

I don’t know how

fully.
Q.

So, I’m sorry, let me direct you back to 3 March.

3784

07667

1

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

So, they announced Reveille, Reveille,

2

Reveille, in the housing unit then stand by for count.

3

given hygiene--we did not do a hygiene call so there was not shaving

4

before count.

5

clothes.

6

anything so I just stand at the front of my cell as normal but with,

7

at a modified position of parade rest.

So, I--So then I stand up and I don’t have any

I just have the POI blanket and I don’t have flip-flops or

8

Q.

You don’t have a POI blanket?

9

A.

I have two POI blankets, ma’am.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

So, I have--I don’t have clothes, Your Honor.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

I was not

Am I confused?

So would you be standing the same way that you would

be standing that you described earlier when you had your underwear?

14

A.

Yes.

Yes, Your Honor.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Wrapped around me, yes, Your Honor.

17

Q.

Around you, okay.

18

A.

So I would have the blanket wrapped around me and then I

So the blanket wrapped----

Go ahead.

19

was instructed--and then, I mean, I don’t exactly know how it was

20

worded but--but the door was cracked open and----

21

Q.

What door?

22

A.

The door to the observation booth opened.

23

The guard inside

then asks something to the effect of, Detainee Manning, is that how,

3785

07668

1

you know, you stand a parade rest?

I wasn’t sure how to answer that

2

question in terms of both I couldn’t see--I didn’t have glasses so I

3

couldn’t see rank or if that person was standing at the door, I

4

believe that the person was sitting down.

5

Q.

Did you recognize the voice?

6

A.

I did not, Your Honor.

They--From the observation booth

7

they sound mostly the same unless it is something over the intercom.

8

The male voices sound pretty--they echo so they sound fairly similar,

9

Your Honor.

And I don’t recall--I recall being confused about that--

10

about the rank in particular and then I said, you know, I tried to

11

word the question of something to the effect of, excuse me, lance

12

corporal, I’m not sure what you are trying to ask and that was the

13

gist of what I was trying to ask.

14

and then the statement was said again.

15

recall asking, should I put the blanket--do you want me to put the

16

blanket down and then there being a yes or something like that.

17

sat the blanket down and stood at parade rest, Your Honor.

I don’t recall the exact phrasing
And then I think I asked, I

So I

18

Q.

What happened after that?

19

A.

Then they ran through count or they announced----

20

Q.

Well, I’m sorry was there a response to that?

21

A.

No, I just stood--well they--the door closed so, the door

22
23

was no longer cracked open and then they---Q.

When did the door close?

3786

07669

1

A.

After I set the blanket down, Your Honor.

2

Q.

Okay.

3
4

But was there a response?

You asked, do you want me

to put the blanket down, what was their response?
A.

To set the blanket down.

Before I set the blanket down I

5

think, yeah, I think there was a yes, Detainee Manning or something

6

to that effect.

7

verbatim instruction of some kind.

I don’t recall if it was just a yes, or if it was a

8

Q.

Okay.

So what happens next?

9

A.

Then, because we are standing by for count that is the

10

status that we’re in at that time and then as the Duty Brig

11

Supervisor comes near the--near special quarters from, you know, from

12

the viewpoint from the guards and this is, I’m inferring this just

13

from experience of being there, then they unlock the door and one of

14

the Marines comes out on the opposite side of the observation booth

15

for the other side so the door opens on the opposite side where the

16

other two cells are at and then announces to the entire housing unit,

17

special quarters, atten-hut or attention.

18

Supervisor comes in and goes to each--goes to my cell and then does a

19

knife hand move and then walks on.

20

Q.

Okay.

And then the Duty Brig

You said that the Duty Brig Supervisor comes in,

21

what do they do for count when they come in.

22

cell, what do they--do they face your cell?

23

straight line past your cell?

3787

When you say go by your
Do they walk in a

07670

1

A.

They walk with a sense of urgency past the cell but they

2

stopped--they slow down for each cell and then they do sort of a--

3

depending on who it was, I remember in this particular--this

4

particular morning it was a, I couldn’t see who it was, I didn’t have

5

my glasses on, but there was a knife-hand movement and then moved--

6

and then continued on down----

7

Q.

Okay.

8

A.

Like that.

9

Q.

Like you are cutting a cake?

10

A.

Yes, Your Honor, towards the cell, towards me.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

The lights are on, yes, both outside the cell, throughout

13

Let me see what a knife-hand movement once again?

And are the lights on?

special quarters and inside my cell, yes, Your Honor.

14

Q.

And then what happens after the knife movement?

15

A.

Then--I mean there’s--He’s still walking but slows down for

16

that movement and then continues walking very quickly, increased the

17

speed to get back to pretty----

18

Q.

And then what happens next, what do you do?

19

A.

Well, I wait for the command, because he goes to the other

20

side of this horseshoe arrangement and exits in what the call Bravo

21

row door, which was the alternate side on the opposite side of the

22

observation booth and then the guard announces parade rest again, you

23

stand, and I stood back at parade rest until--until I guess they

3788

07671

1

announced count clear over the radio and then we fall out, we are

2

brought back to attention and then we fall out, ma’am.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

what happens?

5

A.

And then moving on then to the morning of 4 March,

4 March, which, that’s the morning after this.

You know,

6

what I recall at least, I mean, I don’t know--I don’t recall how many

7

days this occurred but I--whenever they announced Reveille, Reveille,

8

Reveille, at this point in time they had my clothing already set up

9

on the feed tray of the cell so as soon as they announced the

10

Reveille, Reveille--as soon as they announced Reveille, Reveille,

11

Reveille I am able to grab my clothing, put it on, put my glasses on

12

and then whenever--then I’m semi dressed by the time I can--or I

13

might be completely dressed by the time they announce stand by for

14

count, Your Honor.

15

Q.

The 5th of March?

16

A.

the 5th of March, I don’t recall if--I don’t recall

17

exactly--I don’t recall if it was 2 days or 1 day between whenever I

18

had this, but on either the 5th or the 6th of March I did not receive

19

my clothing on the feed tray at Reveille, so I sat--I sat sort of

20

Indian style with the POI blanket until they announced stand by for

21

count.

22

from that, I stood by at the front of the cell back at parade rest

23

without the POI blanket just like the other day.

And then given the guidance that I had or that I understood

3789

Just like the 3rd

07672

1

of March.

2

guard had quickly placed and handed me my clothing so that I was able

3

to dress and I was dressed just in time for whenever they announced

4

for the--just in time for them to announce attention, special

5

quarters attention.

6
7

Q.

But before count was announced one of the--I mean, the

All right.

So if I understand your testimony then, there

is one morning that you are standing naked at attention?

8

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Completely for--through that entire count portion, yes,

11
12
13

Your Honor.
Q.

Okay.

You testified earlier that during hygiene call you

are given a razor to shave?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

Is that true on suicide risk?

16

A.

Yes, it’s true for all status at the facility.

17

Q.

Did they watch you while you were doing that or did they

18
19

just leave it with you in the cell?
A.

Sometimes, sometimes.

Sometimes--Yeah, most of the time

20

they would just leave it in my feed tray and then, you know, I would

21

go and I would--they would leave.

22

shaving cream out of the cell adjacent to me where I had my hygiene

23

items and they would place it on the feed tray or hand it to me if I

3790

They would get the razor and the

07673

1

was standing there--if I was standing there they would just hand it

2

to me.

3

then return and place the razor and the shaving cream back into--back

4

on to the lip of the feed tray, Your Honor.

And then I would put the shaving cream on my face, shave and

5

Q.

What kind of a razor was it?

6

A.

It was a--I don’t remember--I remember I had a MAC 3, so a

7

three-blade razor at one point and then I had a Gillett Fusion at one

8

point, so a five-blade razor, Your Honor.

9

Q.

Okay.

Were you told at any time that Gunnery Sergeant

10

Blenis didn’t think that you were--thought that you were being pretty

11

quiet, during--in your arrival in September/October that you weren’t

12

being very interactive?

13
14
15
16
17

A.

I mean, I didn’t know how much inter--I don’t know what he

means by that, Your Honor.
Q.

Did he tell you at any time during September or October

that, you know, you are not really talking very much, I’m concerned?
A.

Not that he was concerned.

He certainly--He certainly was

18

like, you know, you’re quiet.

I think I might have explained to him

19

that, you know, I don’t have a lot to say. I’m not really doing a

20

whole lot.

21

had some small talk on occasions where we would talk about current

22

events, sports, it just varied, but----

There is not a lot going on.

3791

So, we talked, and then we

07674

1

Q.

I guess that’s what’s confusing me slightly too.

You

2

testified yesterday that you are very extraverted person that likes

3

to be around people.

4

A.

Yes, I do.

5

Q.

I guess why didn’t you talk when you had the opportunity to

6

talk to him?

7

A.

It’s a different--I mean, it’s a--and I did talk to him.

8

felt that I was talking to him.

9

talk to people.

I like to talk.

I mean I like to

I get energy from being around people and large

10

groups of people.

11

and I felt that we were--I felt that we were having a decent

12

conversation.

13

talk about or I was just out of energy from being bored all day and

14

not really having a lot to do.

15

weren’t necessarily that interesting to me in terms of--we didn’t

16

have a lot of similar interests, me and now Master Sergeant Blenis.

17

We had some overlaps in terms of like college basketball and things

18

like that but we didn’t have a lot of similar interests on certain

19

things at least from what I could gather.

20

Q.

I

It was just this sort of one-on-one conversation

I mean sometimes I just didn’t have a whole lot to

But we would talk about things that

When’s the first time that you can remember--you testified

21

earlier that you tried to handle this informally in the beginning.

22

Did you ever talk to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis or anyone else at the

3792

07675

1

brig about what can I do to make you all think that I’m stable and

2

I’m not----

3

A.

Yes, yes, quite frequently.

I don’t know when it started

4

but from the very beginning I wanted to convey the fact that, you

5

know, whenever I arrived at Quantico Base Brig in July 2010, I wanted

6

the staff to know that, you know, that I was fine at this point--or I

7

wanted to get off the status and I wanted to find out how I could

8

prove that to them so that I could enjoy an increased quality of life

9

from my vantage point, Your Honor.

10
11

Q.

The first time that you opted to appear in front of the C&A

Board was in January.

12

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

13

Q.

Why didn’t you go earlier and try to make your case then?

14

A.

It was a lot of--I mean, there was a lot of different--

15

there were a lot of different factors involved in that.

16

I thought it was--for the longest period of time I thought it was--I

17

thought Captain Hocter was the person that was making--that was

18

keeping me on and that was my understanding at least in the Summer

19

and Autumn in 2010 that Captain Hocter was the person that really

20

made that call as to my status, Your Honor.

I mean, one,

21

Q.

That was your understanding through the Fall of 2010?

22

A.

Yes, Your Honor.

23

Q.

When did that not become your understanding?

3793

07676

1

A.

When I started to ask questions to Captain Hocter more

2

along the lines of why.

3

was recommending.

4

facility--at a certain point I did.

5

told me that he was recommending me that I be taken off.

6

started talking to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis about the fact that

7

Captain Hocter had told me that--because Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was

8

telling me that it was the “Docs” that were keeping me on prevention

9

of injury status, that were making that recommendation that call,

10
11

I remember I asked him specifically what he

I had not asked what he was recommending to the
And it was at that point that he
So, then I

Your Honor.
Q.

Okay.

So, Gunnery Sergeant--Just make sure I understand.

12

So, Gunnery Sergeant Blenis was telling you that it was the doctors

13

that were keeping you on POI status?

14

A.

He called them the “Docs”, I mean, I don’t know if he was

15

referring to just Captain Hocter or other medical personnel but, I

16

mean, he would just call them the Docs or the psyches, Your Honor.

17

Q.

18

worked?

19

A.

Did he or anyone else explain to you how the C&A process

I did not really get into the details of the C&A Board

20

process.

I just assumed that everything was working in order and

21

that I didn’t need to be involved, I didn’t feel like--I thought

22

that--I thought that improvement over time would be enough for them

23

to make a recommendation or for somebody to make a decision and

3794

07677

1

eventually I learned that it was the brig commander that made that

2

decision.

3

Q.

And my last question to you will be, when in the process

4

did you, or did you ever, come to believe that improvement over time

5

wouldn’t change anything?

6

A.

Well there was a--There were two times that I had come to

7

that realization separately because of the change of command at the

8

facility, or at the brig.

9

which I was placed on suicide risk status and after I had talked to

So, after the January 18th incident in

10

Captain Hocter and Captain Moore on that day, I felt the sense that I

11

was not going to get off of this status ever as long as--off of POI

12

status in particular, even though I was on SR status I figured that I

13

would come off of that and just go back on POI status.

14

convinced that as long as Chief Warrant Officer 4 Averhart was the

15

commander of the facility that--and I knew that he was going to have

16

a change over soon, so I was convinced that at that point nothing,

17

until the change of command or whatever the Marine Corps call it took

18

place, that I would continue to be on POI or SR status, Your Honor.

19

A precautionary status.

20

MJ:

Any follow up questions based on that?

21

A. Oh, there was the second portion, Your Honor.

22

MJ:

I’m sorry, go ahead.

3795

I was

07678

1

A.

The second portion was after the March 3rd incident.

I

2

would--After the underwear comment that I made and the flip-flops

3

that I made to Master Sergeant Papakie and to Chief Warrant Officer 2

4

Barnes or that I made to Master Sergeant Papakie and then it was

5

relayed to Chief Warrant Officer 2 Barnes.

6

days after that I did not think that that--I pretty much lost hope in

7

the fact that the--this new commander was going to change anything

8

either, Your Honor.

9

MJ:

Thank you.

After that--After--A few

Any follow-up based on that?

10

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor, but the government does request a

12

quick follow-up to one issue that Mr. Coombs had elicited on

13

redirect?

14

MJ:

Proceed.

15
16
17

RECROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:
Q.

Private First Class Manning, just in reference to a

18

question Mr. Coombs asked you about when you met with your family

19

members in the visitor booths and why you--you withheld certain

20

information from them.

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

This is in reference to that question.

23

A.

Yes, sir.

3796

07679

1
2

Q.

You testified that you were concerned of your family

members worrying about you?

3

A.

Definitely, sir.

4

Q.

Were you concerned about your friends worrying about you

A.

Of course.

5

too?

6

But I didn’t really have I think friend-wise, I

7

would call Mr. Clark a friend, so yes, in that sense Mr. Clark in

8

particular, but many of my--many of the people that I considered

9

friends did not come to visit me while I was at Quantico Base Brig,

10
11

sir.
Q.

So, what about--and then were you also worried about what

12

the media consultants or PR experts would think when they came and

13

visited you and you didn’t talk to them about it?

14

A.

I didn’t really--I mean, they were there.

I was more--I

15

was more concerned about having--having sort of, because I knew that

16

no matter what they were going to talk to whoever about whatever.

17

They have First Amendment rights to do that so they can speak to

18

whoever about whatever and, but I wanted them--I wanted to hear from

19

them and see their--and see them personally so, that’s why I sort of

20

have them on the visitor list, sir.

21
22
23

Q.

And then as far as what you talked about specifically about

Mr. House for instance.
A.

Yes, sir.

3797

07680

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

Q.

You were concerned about what he would--was saying in the

media?
A.

Yes, sir, and about how that would be perceived

specifically by Quantico Base Brig personnel, sir.
Q.

And you would agree that at some point you realized what

was being put out in the media wasn’t necessarily accurate?
A.

I would say so, yes, sir.

From their standpoint that’s why

8

I had--that’s why we arranged, why me and Mr. Coombs arranged for--of

9

these blog postings was because I wanted--that was the--we were going

10

to try and hold, you know, the middle ground and try to get just the

11

facts as many facts as possible and not, you know, these crazy

12

opinions--these opinions.

13
14
15

Q.

So, there was information for people who did visit you

being put out to the media that was false about your conditions?
A.

That I believed was--that was not necessarily accurate or

16

that was portrayed in a slanted light that was not--I wanted--I’m a

17

fact--I’m more of a scientific person, I like things to be more

18

factual and as objective--it could be subjectivity that inevitable in

19

the world, you know, and in society especially, but, you know, to try

20

to put as many objective facts on the table as possible and to

21

counter a lot of the wildness that we were--that I was particularly

22

was concerned about, sir.

3798

07681

1
2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, thank you.

Honor.

3

MJ:

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5

MJ:

6

ACC: Yes, Your Honor.

7

No further questions, Your

Okay.
Nothing further, Your Honor.

PFC Manning, please return to your chair.

[The accused resumed his seat at defense counsel table.]

8

MJ:

All right.

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

What’s the order of march next?
Sir, excuse me, ma’am, if we may take a 15-minute

10

recess the United States will call, and at that time coordinate the

11

phone call for Lieutenant Colonel Russell.

12

MJ:

All right.

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

MJ:

Any objection?
No, Your Honor.

Court is in recess until 25 after 1600 or 4 o’clock.

15

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1608, 30 November 2012.]

16

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1634, 30 November

17

2012.]

18

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

19

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

20

again present.

21
22
23

Captain Morrow?

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

The government calls Lieutenant Colonel

Robert Russell.
Lieutenant Colonel Russell?

3799

07682

1

WIT: Yes, sir.

2

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

3

WIT: Yes.

4

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

5

This is Captain Marrow.

You are on speaker phone in the court-

martial of United States v. PFC Bradley Manning.

6

WIT: Okay.

7

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

8

WIT: Yes.

9

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

10

WIT: Yes.

11

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

12

WIT: Yes.

Are you alone?

Are you able to speak freely?

I am going to swear you in, okay?

13

LIEUTENANT COLONEL ROBERT RUSSELL, U.S. Army, was called as a witness

14

for the prosecution, was sworn, and testified, telephonically, as

15

follows:

16
17
18
19

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT MORROW]:
Q.

Sir, you are Lieutenant Colonel Robert Russell, Staff

Psychiatrist, Joint Task Force GTMO?

20

A.

That’s correct.

21

Q.

Sir, how long have you been in the Army?

22

A.

14 and a half, years.

3800

07683

1
2
3

Q.

And can you briefly describe for the court your various

positions in the Army?
A.

Currently the Joint Task Force Psychiatrist at Legal Base

4

Guantanamo Bay; Division Psychiatrist--Staff Physiatrist at Walter

5

Reed; Afghanistan Region Command Psychiatrist, Afghanistan Division

6

Mental Health.

7

trained in child adolescents psych and passed my boards in public

8

health.

9

Q.

And what about your educational background, sir?

10

A.

Went to Des Moines University where I got a Doctorate of

I am a board certified psychiatrist and fellowship

11

Osteopathy degree; Sigma, Sigma Phi and then did residencies in

12

preventive medicine, general psychiatry and a fellowship in child

13

adolescence psychiatry.

14
15

Q.
this case.

Thank you, sir.

I want to talk about your connection to

Are you familiar with PFC Bradley Manning?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

How so, sir?

18

A.

I was asked to interview PFC Manning twice as a treating

19

psychiatrist.

20

Q.

And who asked you?

21

A.

His regular treating psychiatrist, Colonel Malone.

22
23

In his

absence he requested my assistance when he wasn’t available.
Q.

So you were essentially just filling in for Colonel Malone?

3801

07684

1

A.

That is correct.

2

Q.

Sir, do you have the--well, let me back up.

3

How many times

did you meet with PFC Manning?

4

A.

One.

5

Q.

Sir, do you have the documents that we sent you over email

6

handy?

7

A.

I do.

8

Q.

Can you grab those, please?

9

A.

I have them.

10

MJ:

And explain for the record what those are?

11

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

Ma’am, I’m referring to two documents in

12

Enclosure 21 and I have copies for the court and we have them marked

13

as well.

14

MJ:

15

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

16

MJ:

17

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

18

Q.

19

Well, if they are already in Enclosure 21 to your---To the motion.

To the motion?
But we can add them as an appellate exhibit.

Sir, I want to talk about your 6 April visit with PFC

Manning.

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

What was your--The two times you met with PFC Manning, what

22

was your general routine when you arrived at the brig?

3802

07685

1

A.

Prior to seeing PFC Manning I talked to Colonel Malone

2

about any treatment issues just to provide continuity care.

3

to the brig staff, the brig commander to see if there was any

4

information that would help me with my assessment.

I talked

5

Q.

And who is that, sir?

6

A.

You know I can’t remember the brig commander’s name.

7

Q.

Does Chief Warrant Officer Barnes sound familiar?

8

A.

Yes, that is correct.

9

Q.

And so after you talked with Chief Warrant Officer Barnes,

10
11
12

what did you do next?
A.

After I talked to Chief Barnes then I would have an

interview with PFC Manning.

13

Q.

And how long did the 6 April 2011, interview last?

14

A.

I recall it was probably near an hour.

15

It might have been

a little bit less, a little bit more, I can’t completely remember.

16

Q.

And after--I’m sorry, excuse me.

17

A.

No problem, sir.

18

Q.

And after the meeting what would you do?

19

A.

I spoke to the brig commander to bring up any concerns,

20

safety co.

21

A.

No problem, sir.

22

Q.

And after the meeting what would you do?

3803

07686

1
2

A.

I spoke to the brig commander to bring up any concerns,

safety concerns to clarify observations made by PFC Manning.

3

Q.

Sir, I want to talk about your remarks on the 6 April 2011,

4

form.

5

presentation significantly varies from that observed by myself and by

6

the facility staff.

7

You said that the Servicemember’s emotional and behavior

A.

Can you explain that please?

When I went to interview PFC Manning he, you know, was very

8

social and very intelligent.

You know, he was understandably guarded

9

but he didn’t seem overly worried, good eye contact, very--very

10

engaging person.

11

describe to me a completely different person, flat affect, very

12

withdrawn, poor eye contact, would decline participation in rec,

13

other opportunities like that.

14

presentation varied and it seemed to be dependent upon the person

15

whom he was conversing.

16

depressed, but the person that the brig commander described would, I

17

would say, seemed very depressed.

18

vary.

19
20
21

Q.

When I would speak to the brig staff they would

I got the impression that his

So, the person I interviewed did not seem

So, his presentation seemed to

And so a difference in presentation to different

individuals is that concerning from a psychiatric perspective?
A.

It is.

I mean, it’s, you know, the behavior is not

22

consistent.

I don’t know what the motivation was behind that I only

23

met him twice but it became clear that his presentation was varied

3804

07687

1

from one person to the next.

2

him I wouldn’t be so concerned, but understandably I could see how

3

the brig commander would be given her observation on a day-to-day

4

basis and not just my 1-hour weekly visit.

5

Q.

So much so that when I would interview

Sir, you also stated that due diligence for self-harm

6

behavior is not unreasonable given his change of behavior.

7

reassurance of safety is difficult to achieve if Servicemember

8

chooses not to communicate with facility staff.

9

that please, or just what you meant?

10

A.

Yeah.

Necessary

Can you describe

That--That--I mean, he normally, his baseline

11

behavior was very withdrawn, socially isolated, didn’t participate,

12

you know, in rec activities or opportunity to, but that week the brig

13

commander expressed more concern above that.

14

typically what the topic, he might--he received some negative news

15

and she was concerned that even compared to his baseline he was even

16

more withdrawn, less talkative, almost no eye contact, given his

17

history of attempting suicide in a time with significant stress, at

18

that time I wasn’t sure if this current stressor was also going to

19

cause adjustment difficulties and lead to suicidal thoughts.

20

seemed to be an acute situation just for that week and that’s why I

21

put that comment in there.

22

what it was from the prior evaluation.

I can’t remember

So, it

So that was his changed behavior from

3805

07688

1
2
3

Q.

At that time, sir, did you recommend that he remain on

prevention of injury status?
A.

Yes, I did at that time because of that acute change of

4

behavior which was preceded by, I believe it was from a negative 706

5

finding or something like that I can’t remember. But given that

6

change I thought, yes, that would be prudent.

7

to assess when the individual isn’t engaging with brig staff.

8

is no way that they can ascertain his safety if he’s not

9

communicating, if he’s not, you know, providing some reassurance,

Because it’s difficult
There

10

either vocally verbally, or just in his behavior and taking advantage

11

of recreation activities or whatnot.

12

the brig manager would have some, I think reasonable concern given

13

that and not being able to get any reassurance from PFC Manning that

14

he was safe.

15

commander.

16

know, given that it would probably be best to put him on POI and then

17

reassess him the next time.

So, I could see understandably

You know, and I talked at length with the brig
She conveyed genuine concern for him and we felt, you

18

Q.

Okay, sir.

I want to move to the 15 April 2011, meeting.

19

A.

Okay.

20

Q.

Sir, it is fair to say that PFC Manning--well, I’ll just

21

let you describe, what was the difference between PFC Manning during

22

this visit from your perspective?

3806

07689

1

A.

From my perspective, none.

I mean, I thought he was,

2

again, he is very sociable, very intelligent, very engaging, a very

3

polite individual.

4

one interview to the next.

5

interview was follow-up from the previous interview and during that,

6

you know, of course no asking from PFC Manning and are things too

7

restrictive, you know, if he had an opportunity for rec, I think but

8

I can’t remember specifically there was something about writing and

9

PFC Manning’s perception was that there were many obstacles or lot of

I found from my perspective no difference from
What we discussed mostly in that

10

paperwork that had to be done in order to enjoy those opportunities

11

afforded like recreation and it just wasn’t worth the effort.

12

following the first visit I talked to the brig commander and just

13

asked, is this true?

14

things that aren’t expected from a usual detainee to do these things

15

and it was explained to me and I just recall that, you know, I

16

believe to enjoy rec activity he had to just fill out a one-page

17

paper, it wasn’t very difficult to simply be done and those tests

18

that he was just not choosing to do that.

19

gave him that feedback because I wanted him to do recreation

20

activities.

21

wonderful time of year. I don’t know why he doesn’t want to go

22

outside, enjoy the sunshine, and just relax.

23

reassured him that I talked to the brig commander and it is very

So,

Is it difficult, are we asking unreasonable

So, the second visit I

I remember saying, April in Northern Virginia is a

3807

And, you know, I

07690

1

simple for him to do that and, you know, I also recall that the brig

2

commander stated to me that she was actually affording him I believe

3

more rec then she normally would for detainees, which I think, you

4

know, she was--she expressed a lot of frustration because she was, I

5

believe, trying to comply with things which were then declined by PFC

6

Manning.

7

things and he didn’t have to just stay in his cell.

8

are other opportunities afforded him but we never got past that

9

bearer.

10

Q.

11
12

So, we tried to talk about these obstacles that he can do
He could, there

I’m not quite sure what his motivation was.
Well, when did--did PFC Manning say anything?

What did he

say when you presented the---A.

Oh, it wasn’t really a response back it was more, you know,

13

well we can do this, but then it really wasn’t followed up with much

14

reciprocal discussion or anything positive, affirmative, that that’s

15

good news.

16

continue.

I’ll take advantage of that.

17

Q.

18

too onerous?

19

A.

The discussion didn’t

Did he provide an explanation of why he felt the forms were

No, no, I didn’t go into it any more than that.

I just

20

wanted him to know that, you know, I checked on it, I wanted to make

21

sure that it, you know, it wasn’t unreasonable and that reasonable

22

would be relevant to the typical detainee.

23

I didn’t find that and contrary in talking with brig commander was

3808

And reassure him and that

07691

1

very concerned regarding the safety and taking extra rec

2

opportunities and I’m pretty sure that she even afforded him more

3

than the typical detainee.

4

at it more at that point I realized that well, this is more of an

5

active choice.

6

at that point it seemed like well, he knows that he can do that if he

7

wanted to but he chooses not to so I’m not going to push him or

8

badger him to do that.

9

tried to tell him how nice it was outside and, you know, and it lasts

But, you know, he declined.

So, I looked

Whatever reason, you know, motivation he has, to me

But I do remember several times, you know, I

10

a month or two and it starts getting humid and just trying to

11

convince him to get some fresh air and I probably--I don’t really

12

remember much more from that interview the last time.

13

Q.

Sir, did you--did you recommend prevention of injury again?

14

A.

You know, I----

15

Q.

Or did you say that it wasn’t--well let me ask you this,

16

you said that--excuse me one second, sir.

17

reasonable restrictions which do not cause any mental anguish.

18

Discuss plan with staff.

19

A.

You said, brig providing

What did you mean by that?

Well, I was speaking to what I previously commented to

20

that, you know, I can tell that there were varying perceptions that

21

PFC Manning had a perception that--that there would be extra demands

22

placed upon him so he couldn’t do these things.

23

actually the commands were not intimidating, unreasonable, they

3809

And I found that it

07692

1

seemed to be consistent.

2

statement.

3

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

So, that--that was in reference to that

Okay.

Sir, thank you very much.

I believe

4

defense counsel will have some questions for you as well as the

5

military judge.

6

WIT: All right.

7
8

CROSS-EXAMIANTION
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:

9
10

Q.

Lieutenant Colonel Russell, this is David Coombs.

I just

have a few questions for you, okay?

11

A.

Okay.

12

Q.

Now as you said the first time you saw PFC Manning was on 6

13

April 2011, correct?

14

A.

That is correct.

15

Q.

And you had not evaluated him before that day?

16

A.

You know, I actually went there.

I forgot about this.

I

17

actually went there one previous time with Colonel Malone because he

18

wanted to show me where he would go and paperwork and things like

19

that.

20

him three times.

21

remember when that was but Colonel Malone looked at, I have no exact

22

date.

23

So, actually, you know, I need to backtrack. I actually saw

Q.

Right.

I saw him once with Colonel Malone and I don’t

But you did not evaluate him on that date, correct?

3810

07693

1

A.

No, correct.

2

Q.

So, 6 April 2011 was the first time that you had in fact

3

evaluated PFC Manning?

4

A.

That’s correct.

5

Q.

And prior to the evaluation you spoke with Colonel Malone

6

in order for continuity of care?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

And Colonel Malone was obviously telling you that he was

9
10

recommending PFC Manning, well actually what he was saying was there
was no clinical need for PFC Manning to be on POI?

11

A.

That’s correct.

12

Q.

So, prior to your evaluation when you show up you speak to

13

the brig commander?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And the representations made by the brig commander varied

16

significantly from the observations that you were making talking to

17

PFC Manning?

18

A.

That is correct.

19

Q.

The staff told you that they noted an increase in social

20

isolation, porosity of words during verbal interaction or eye

21

contact.

22

A.

Is that correct?
That’s correct.

3811

07694

1
2

Q.

And you were looking at PFC Manning and seeing an entirely

different picture?

3

A.

That’s correct.

4

Q.

What documentation did Chief Barnes give you in order to

5
6

show you that they were making these observations?
A.

I don’t remember.

You know, I know it was verbal.

I can’t

7

remember if she showed me towards the forms, I don’t remember that.

8

I do remember just conversing.

9

Q.

And you said that there were some recreational activities

10

that PFC Manning was not availing himself of.

11

was receiving 1-hour of rec call every day?

Did you know that he

12

A.

I can’t remember specifics.

13

Q.

And do you know that if he refused the rec call for some

14

reason they would document that?

15

A.

I assume that but I do not know that.

16

Q.

Would it surprise you that he was only authorized 1 hour of

17

rec each day?

18

A.

19
20
21
22
23

Well, again, I can’t remember the specifics of the SOPs for

the brig at Quantico.
Q.

What additional recreational activities did Chief Barnes

tell you that PFC Manning was not availing himself of?
A.

This is a recall that writing, paper and pencil in which to

write. They do that, it’s very--it’s been a while I can’t remember

3812

07695

1

but I can remember it had to do something with writing.

2

certain restrictions.

3

recall he liked to make notations in the books in order for him to--

4

he liked to somehow, he tracked that way in making notes or

5

something, and somehow that was a conflict with the brig’s SOPs and

6

they seemed to kind of have an impact at that, but it is really

7

fuzzy.

8

things they were affording PFC Manning ways to do it a certain way,

9

and the brig didn’t agree so instead of just, you know, applying and

10

He did have

They were affording him to read books but if I

I can’t remember details.

I remember that there were certain

doing it how the brig wished, he chose to just not do it at all.

11

Q.

All right.

12

A.

It had to something with reading and writing and paper or

13
14
15
16
17
18

something like that.
Q.

So, not necessarily involving going outside and getting

sunshine?
A.

Well, that was one of the rec activities, yes, go outside

and get some sunshine.
Q.

No, I understand that was a rec activity, but that was not

19

an issue where PFC Manning was saying I’m not going to avail myself

20

of the opportunity to get some sunshine?

21

A.

Well, it was presented the first time that he would like to

22

do, but they made it too difficult.

23

The brig made it too difficult, you have to fill out the paperwork

3813

The brig made it too difficult.

07696

1

and then when I clarified that the brig commander follow upped the

2

subsequent week, I didn’t see any--he didn’t--there was no excitement

3

on his part or any revelation how he could do that.

4

well, it seemed more the conscious way not to do that in

5

conversation.

6

Q.

It was more,

Dr. Russell, is it possible that your memory of that isn’t

7

quite accurate if he was permitted one hour of recreation call each

8

day and availed himself of that opportunity?

9
10
11

A.

Well, again, I can’t specifically remember the--the number

of hours he would be allowed on rec.
Q.

Okay.

Let’s go to some of the stuff that you’ve got

12

documentation of.

You--When you basically evaluated PFC Manning you

13

noted that he appeared to be of normal behavior?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

He was fully alert?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Fully oriented?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

Normal mood and affect?

20

A.

Right.

21

Q.

Clear thinking process?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

A normal thought process?

3814

07697

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And you opine that PFC Manning’s mental disorder was

3

stable?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

You indicated that he was a low-risk for suicide and self-

7

A.

Right.

8

Q.

And low on this form, and that’s--that’s the lowest thing

6

9

harm?

you can circle, right?

10

A.

Right.

11

Q.

And low in this regard means like, you know, in comparison

12

with the general population he’s no worse or no better of a risk of

13

committing suicide or self-harm, correct?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

Now and you also indicated that you believed that he only

16

needed routine examination?

17

A.

Which was weekly.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

And you indicated in this form that he needed to be

segregated from the general population, do you see that?

20

A.

That’s correct.

21

Q.

And why did you feel that way?

22

A.

The brig commander was sharing concerns that--for his

23

safety and other detainees.

3815

07698

1

Q.

So, that was based upon what the brig commander was telling

3

A.

That’s correct.

4

Q.

Now, you state that you cannot recommend changing his POI

2

you?

5

status given his behavior change and you are basing the behavior

6

change upon what the brig commander was telling you?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

So you were trusting what she was relaying to you was

9

accurate and truthful?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Now as part of your evaluation, did you review the prior

12

evaluations of Colonel Malone and his predecessor, Captain Hocter?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And were you seeing anything in there that indicated that

15

PFC Manning was withdrawing from people or beginning to no longer

16

converse with the staff?

17

A.

No, I remember--I remember those type--that type of

18

information I think I had a conversation but in notes, no, I don’t

19

remember seeing that.

20

Q.

Now, were you aware that Colonel Malone saw PFC Manning 2

21

days after you did the first time on--you saw him on 6 April and

22

Colonel Malone saw him on 8 April?

23

A.

Yes.

3816

07699

1
2

Q.

And were you aware that Colonel Malone opined at that point

that the mental disorder was resolved?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And you were aware then, I guess, at that point that

5

Colonel Malone also opined that PFC Manning did not need to be

6

segregated from the general population?

7

A.

I don’t recall that.

8

Q.

Would you agree that Colonel Malone had a longer treatment

9

history with PFC Manning then you did?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And obviously he also had a longer history of dealing with

12

the Quantico staff and the personalities there than you?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Now, you saw PFC Manning again, as you say, on 15 April

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

And on that date he appeared to be normal to you again?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Fully alert?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Fully oriented?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

The normal mood and affect?

15

2011?

3817

07700

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

Clear thinking process?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

Normal thought content?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And you opined that PFC Manning’s mental disorder was

7

stable?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

You indicated that he was a low-risk again for suicide or

10

self-harm?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And you indicated that he was a low-risk for violence?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

Again, you only believed that he needed routine

15

examination?

16

A.

17

Q.

18

others”?

Right.

And you stated that PFC Manning was “not a danger to self or

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

In this evaluation you entered N/A defer to the command on

21

segregation, why?

3818

07701

1

A.

Well, they had visibility of the other detainees that the

2

concern was for his safety, against the other detainees.

3

defer to them on that decision.

4
5

Q.

I would

So, clinically you weren’t seeing anything that would

require PFC Manning to be segregated?

6

A.

No.

7

Q.

Did you ask PFC Manning about limiting his interaction with

8

the staff?

9

A.

We had some conversations but I can’t recall them.

10

Q.

Were you aware that PFC Manning was being stripped of his

11

underwear at night at the time you were evaluating him?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And did you know that was due to having a conversation with

14

a member of the staff where they believed one of his statements

15

indicated an intent to self-harm?

16

A.

I recall that, yes.

17

Q.

And would you agree with me that it’s normal behavior to

18

stop talking to people if you think they are looking for reasons to

19

keep you on a particular custody status?

20

A.

No, I wouldn’t actually agree.

21

Q.

You wouldn’t agree that if you thought that your words were

22

being used against you and that anything that you said would be held

3819

07702

1

against you that it couldn’t be normal for a person to say, maybe I’m

2

going to limit my interaction?

3

A.

I met with other detainees and I would say no.

4

Q.

Have you ever heard of learned helplessness?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And what do you know about that, Doc?

7

A.

Well, it’s through--a condition--a person who has

8

difficulty self-advocating.

9

surrender.

10

Q.

Thank you, Doctor.

11

MJ:

Redirect?

12

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

13

MJ:

14
15

military judge.

Nothing, Your Honor.
Doctor Russell, this is Colonel Lind, I’m the

I have a few questions for you.

Can you hear me?

WIT: Yes, ma'am.

16
17

All right.

There are certain tendencies to

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL
Questions by the military judge:

18

Q.

What is your understanding of POI status?

19

A.

Well, I can’t recall the specifics at this point.

20

actual brig policies of what was in place.

21

remember the exact details right now.

22
23

Q.

The

I can’t recall--I can’t

I guess, I’m a little confused on the recommendation on the

15th of continuing--well on the 6th and the 15th you recommend

3820

07703

1

continuing with POI status.

2

that you were aware that PFC Manning’s underwear was being taken away

3

from him at night.

4

would you recommend that continue?

5

A.

At that point I believe you testified

If he’s a low risk of self-harm or violence why

For that week his behavior changed.

So, it wasn’t the

6

typical behavior that the brig was observing or, you know, or was

7

noted.

8

concerns that--for that week because his behavior just seemed extreme

9

from what she had observed in the past.

10
11

The brig commander said that she had, you know, special

So, I think that’s what that

speaks to, ma’am, it was just that week.
Q.

So when the brig--when CW2 Barnes, the brig commander was

12

talking about behavior changes how did she describe his behavior

13

before this change?

14

A.

Not talkative, very little interactions with the brig

15

staff, not enjoying outdoor rec things that are afforded.

16

remember her comparing it relative to what she normally sees in a

17

typical brig detainee and how she felt that this was a little more

18

extreme then she has experienced in the past.

19
20
21

Q.

Go ahead.

She--I

Finish your answer and then I’ll ask my next

question.
A.

Okay.

The impression that I got was, you know, what we saw

22

or what I saw when I interviewed PFC Manning was someone who did not

23

seem maladjusted.

His mood seemed fine.

3821

It really struck me how his

07704

1

mood missed and I understand this is just according to the brig

2

commander, was there was a stark difference between the two.

3

difficult to figure out his motivation.

4

speak with him he did not seem depressed.

5

about him but people often tend to act differently in different

6

situations and while he was with me he seemed to be very low risk.

7

What I was not a witness to and I wish I could have witnessed was how

8

he did interact when he wasn’t being interviewed because of the stark

9

difference in description that the brig staff related to me.

It was

It was clear when I would
I would not be worried

So I

10

remember I kind of understood why the brig commander would have some

11

concerns if or during the week she would see this very solemn

12

withdrawn person.

13

interview the person, or I’m sorry the person, when we interviewed

14

PFC Manning he wouldn’t seem depressed.

15

motivation of where--whether it was manipulative or whatnot only

16

because I only did see him those two weeks but all of those were

17

considerations, you know, that that be the reason behind it.

18

you know, given my analysis on why I didn’t feel comfortable seeing

19

him.

20
21
22

Q.

I could understand her concern.

I didn’t want to go into his

But,

In your--Have you worked in corrections facilities other

than this experience?
A.

But when we would

Yes, ma’am, at Guantanamo Bay currently.

3822

07705

1

Q.

Oh, okay.

Well, I asked you earlier if you were familiar

2

with prevention of injury status as a status, or suicide risk for

3

that matter, I guess I’m--if you have worked in those kind of

4

settings have you seen this before?

5

A.

Prevention of injury, ma’am?

6

Q.

Yes.

7

A.

Yes, ma'am.

8

Q.

Is that, in your experience is that like a status that one

9
10

would go or be on for a long time, a short time, does it vary person
by person?

11

A.

A person can be on that for a while.

It depends on, you

12

know, what type of reassurance the detention facility or brig will

13

get whether it is verbal or behavior or some indication that this

14

person is safe.

15

Is the person engaging in just, you know, simple conversation.

16

as I remember the concern with PFC Manning wasn’t conversing in even

17

the most simple conversation with, in no way, be part of his case,

18

the simple daily courtesies.

19

way.

20

Q.

Usually a lot of it has to do with his sociability.
And

They felt that he wouldn’t engage that

When you are describing the fact that PFC Manning wouldn’t

21

engage and I guess this is where my confusion is lying a bit, you

22

testified earlier that you were recommending not withstanding your

23

own interviews, continued POI because of a sudden change in behavior

3823

07706

1

and I guess I’m going back to my original question, did the brig

2

commander describe what PFC Manning was like before his behavior

3

changed?

4

A.

Right.

No.

So a typical behavior is not conversing and

5

not doing rec but that week I remember she physically said that his

6

eye contact was very poor.

7

someone was speaking to him.

8

He--Well as I said before, it was just more excessive than what she

9

experienced with him.

10
11
12

Q.

It was--He would stare at the ground when
He would use very few words in reply.

Why did she believe--Did she tell you why she believed that

PFC Manning would be in danger from the other inmates?
A.

No, it’s--I don’t remember specifically.

I just remember

13

the conversation of whether he would be safe with other inmates.

14

Other inmates would attempt to harm him.

15

every conversation that he would do anything to another inmate, I

16

don’t think himself would harm another person there.

I don’t think there was

17

Q.

Did she say why she thought other inmates would harm him?

18

A.

I can’t remember specifically, ma’am.

19

MJ:

Any follow-up based on that?

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

No, Your Honor.

21

ATC[CPT MORROW]:

No, Your Honor.

22
23

[The witness was excused and the telephone call ended.]
MJ:

All right.

Do we have any other witnesses for today?

3824

07707

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, Your Honor, the United States calls GM1

2

Webb.

3

GM1 TERRANCE W. WEBB, JR., U.S. Navy, was called as a witness for the

4

prosecution, was sworn, and testified as follows:

5
6

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT von ELTEN]:

7

Q.

Where are you stationed?

8

A.

Norfolk.

9

Q.

How long have you served in the Navy?

10

A.

I served in the Navy 9 months--9 years 11 months.

11

Q.

And I just want to ask you a point of clarification.

12

In

the Navy, GM1, what is that equivalent in grade?

13

A.

It’s an E6.

14

Q.

And GM2 is the equivalent of?

15

A.

Of an E5.

16

Q.

And your rank while you were at Quantico was what?

17

A.

Was an E5.

18

Q.

Thank you.

19

A.

In corrections, Quantico was my first--the first brig that

20
21

How much experience do you have in corrections?

I’ve worked at.
Q.

And did you receive any schooling?

3825

07708

1

A.

Yes, I went through the same correctional academy that all

2

the Marines and--that all the Marines go through when they go to work

3

at brigs.

4

Q.

And when did you report to Quantico?

5

A.

I reported to Quantico in July, I believe July 7th, 2010.

6

Q.

And about how long were you there?

7

A.

I was there from July 7th, 2010, until January 27th, 2012.

8

Q.

And what were you duty titles?

9

A.

While I was working at Quantico Brig I was a Watch

10

Supervisor and then I was a Duty Brig Supervisor.

11
12

Q.

Let me go over that a little bit.

What does a Watch

Supervisor do?

13

A.

A Watch Supervisor is overall in charge of the personnel on

14

the section.

15

in the section are good to go while they are standing their posts.

They set the watch posts and ensure that the personnel

16

Q.

And what does a Duty Brig Supervisor do?

17

A.

A Duty Brig Supervisor is overall in charge of the brig in

18

the absence of the commanding officer and they also-they--they carry

19

out and ensure the plan of the day is carried out and they also

20

oversee, you know, they oversee the watch supervisor and ensure that

21

all of the posts are stood properly.

22
23

Q.

So as DBS mean you maintain day-to-day operations of the

brig?

3826

07709

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And how many interactions did you have with prisoners at

3
4
5

Quantico Brig as the DBS?
A.

As the DBS I had to speak with all of the prisoners at

least twice a day at a minimum.

6

Q.

Why would you speak to them?

7

A.

Just to verify or to ask them if everything is okay.

8

If

they had any issues or complaints.

9

Q.

And did you conduct skin checks?

10

A.

I did not conduct--I conducted counts while we had to do

11
12
13

counts but I did not--I did not personally conduct skin counts.
Q.

As DBS were you responsible for ensuring skin checks were

conducted?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And would you please explain what a skin check is?

16

A.

What a skin check is, is at night when--once all the

17

inmates were asleep, the guards that are actually standing--standing

18

post inside of special quarters, they go by and they verify that they

19

can see skin from each and every--each and every inmate.

20

walk by a cell and an inmate has a blanket pulled over their head it

21

is their job to wake the inmate up and let them know that they need

22

to remove that blanket from their head so that they can see skin.

23

Q.

And why do you do this?

3827

So, if they

07710

1
2

A.

To ensure that the inmate is still breathing and that the

inmate is still there.

3

Q.

And how often were these skin checks conducted?

4

A.

If they were a regular MDI inmate it was every 30 minutes.

5

But if it was a suicide risk it was--actually I’m not 100 percent

6

sure if it was 30 minutes or 15 but I know suicide was every 5

7

minutes.

8
9

Q.

But every prisoner was checked for skin at some point

throughout the night?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Regardless of classification or custody?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

I want to talk a little bit about 18 January 2011.

14

Do you

remember that day?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

What was your duty title that day?

17

A.

I was the Duty Brig Supervisor for that day, sir.

18

Q.

And were you a part of escorting PFC Manning to recreation

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And what was your role in that?

22

A.

I was -- As the Duty Brig Supervisor I was just overseeing

19

23

call?

the whole operation.

3828

07711

1

Q.

And whom were you overseeing?

2

A.

PFC Manning.

3

Q.

And what guards were there?

4

A.

It was Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.

5

Q.

Was that about the normal number of guards to move PFC

6

Manning?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And----

9

A.

Correction, for rec call that was the normal, yes.

10

Q.

And so how did you start moving PFC Manning that morning?

11

A.

We arrived at his--at his cell.

We advised him that he was

12

going to rec call.

We sound stand by for lockdown.

13

cell and we applied--applied his restraints.

We opened his

14

Q.

Was that the normal procedure?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And was that procedure based on his maximum custody?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And that was the procedure executed--was that the procedure

19

executed every day?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Who applied the restraints?

22

A.

I do not remember, sir.

23

Q.

Do you remember anything unusual happening?

3829

07712

1

A.

Once his restraints were applied Lance Corporal Tankersly,

2

after everything was completed, he was outside his cell to face Alpha

3

Row and Lance Corporal Tankersly told him to face towards the door to

4

Alpha Row and he faced that way but he did not--he did not respond---

5

-

6

Q.

When you say he did not respond, who did not respond?

7

A.

PFC Manning.

8

He did not--he didn’t respond to the command.

So, at that time Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected him.

9

Q.

How many times were the commands given?

10

A.

The command was given once, sir.

11

Q.

And were any other commands given by any other guards?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Did any other guards give a command to PFC Manning to face

14

a direction?

15

A.

No, sir.

16

Q.

So, only Lance Corporal Tankersly gave the command?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And what happened after the command was given?

19

A.

There was no response, sir.

20

Q.

And what happened after there was no response?

21

A.

Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected PFC Manning and told him

22

Any time I gave a command, sir.

that any time he’s spoke to by a guard inside--or a--at any time he’s

3830

07713

1

spoken to he needs to respond with Aye, Aye; yes or no, or if it’s an

2

officer, sir or ma’am.

3

Q.

And how did PFC Manning respond?

4

A.

He did not respond.

5

at that time.

6

Q.

So, after the correction, what happened next?

7

A.

Then--I don’t remember at this time.

8

I’m not exactly sure how he responded

Is there a--my

incident report that I prepared.

9

Q.

Did you proceed to rec call?

10

A.

Yes, after everything was completed we did proceed to rec

Q.

And about how many people were at recreation call when you

11
12
13
14
15
16
17

call.

arrived?
A.

When we arrived to recreation call, it was myself and Lance

Corporal Tankersly, Lance Corporal Cline, and Manning.
Q.

And so what happened when you arrived?

Where was

recreational car?

18

A.

Recreational call was in Dorm 1.

19

Q.

And is that the normal place for it?

20

A.

That’s the normal place for indoor rec call, yes, sir.

21

Q.

So, what happened after you arrived?

3831

07714

1

A.

After we arrived we sounded secure lock down.

We placed--

2

We moved Manning into the middle of--into the middle of Dorm 1 but

3

prior to removing his restraints we instructed him not to move.

4

Q.

And how did he respond to that?

5

A.

At first he didn’t respond.

6

The command was said again and

then he said that he was not moving.

7

Q.

And how did PFC Manning appear at this time?

8

A.

There really didn’t seem to be anything out of the

9

ordinary, sir.

10

Q.

So, what happened next?

11

A.

We proceeded to remove his restraints and once we completed

12

removing his restraints he fell on his buttocks and at that time----

13

Q.

Why did he fall?

14

A.

We are not sure, sir.

15

Q.

What did you say to him?

16

A.

We--When he fell on his buttocks we reached out to try to

17

catch him.

18

Q.

And how would you describe his demeanor at that time?

19

A.

At that time I really don’t remember exactly--exactly how

20

he looked.

21

really quick and kind of went over into one of the corners behind the

22

machines.

23

Q.

He just fell on his buttocks and hopped up, stood up

And what did he do when he was behind the machines?

3832

07715

1

A.

He was apologizing to myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly.

2

Q.

How did he sound?

3

A.

He just kept saying, I’m sorry GM2, I’m sorry Lance

4

Corporal.

5

Q.

And what was his volume like?

6

A.

It wasn’t--It wasn’t loud.

7

It was just kind of like as I’m

speaking to you.

8

Q.

And so what happened next after he ran behind the machine?

9

A.

I called the Security Chief to come to Dorm 1 and we

10

grabbed a chair and instructed Manning to sit down.

11

Q.

And who is the Security Chief?

12

A.

It’s Gunnery Sergeant Fuller.

13

Q.

And so after Gunnery Sergeant Fuller shows up what happens

A.

He sat Manning down and spoke with him and asked him if

14

next?

15
16

there was anything we could do to--anything that we could do to help

17

him.

18

anything that he could think of for us to do to help him and after

19

that he was asked if he wanted to complete his rec call.

20

that he did so he completed his rec call.

He stated that there wasn’t anything--or that there wasn’t

He said

21

Q.

And how long did PFC Manning’s recreational call last?

22

A.

They were normally an hour.

23

Q.

And did it go the full time?

3833

07716

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

I want to ask about a little bit later.

3

Do you remember

what happened later?

4

A.

Later in?

5

Q.

Later in that day after recreation call?

6

A.

A little bit, sir.

7

Q.

And would you please describe what you remember?

8

A.

After the rec call, after we got him back into his cell, is

9

that what we are talking about, sir?

10

Q.

[Affirmative response].

11

A.

I remember that Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in to

12

speak with Manning.

13

were talking.

14

from me.

I was actually inside the guard shack while they

Me--I was just there in case the OIC needed anything

Normally I always kind of try to keep myself around.

15

Q.

Was it normal for you to be in the guard shack?

16

A.

No, just any time when he’s in there--any time when the OIC

17

was in there talking to inmates I would go in and I would just kind

18

of be in the general area in case he had any questions for me just to

19

make myself accessible, sir.

20

Q.

That was your normal procedure?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And so what happened next?

3834

07717

1

A.

I remember hearing PFC Manning raising his voice, shouting,

2

I looked up and I kind of saw his hands flying and at that time Chief

3

Warrant Officer Averhart came in and instructed me, it was something

4

to the effect of “Special Move, Suicide” and at that time I called a

5

Code Blue.

6
7
8
9

Q.

So, when after the Special Move, Suicide, what did you do

A.

I got on my radio and called a Code Blue and instructed my

next?

SORT Team to suit up.

10

Q.

And by Sort Team you mean extraction team?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And what was the status of the extraction team?

13

A.

You mean after the--well they were----

14

Q.

After you have suited up?

15

A.

Oh, they were just on stand-by.

16

They were actually outside

of Special Quarters standing by waiting for instruction.

17

Q.

What is--What is PFC Manning doing during this time?

18

A.

During this time I was actually--I was outside of Special

19

Quarters ensuring that my SORT Team, you know, the locker was open

20

for them to get all their equipment so I’m not exactly sure what was-

21

-what was happening.

22

Q.

Did the SORT Team ever go into PFC Manning’s cell?

23

A.

No, sir.

3835

07718

1

Q.

Why not?

2

A.

Because the SORT Team was actually stood down by either

3

Chief Warrant Officer Averhart or Master Sergeant Papakie.

4

Q.

And do you know why?

5

A.

I believe after that he became compliant so we felt we did

6

not need to go in to gain compliance.

7

Q.

I want to talk a little bit about the morning routine with

8

PFC Manning.

9

started being taken, what time did the morning start for a prisoner

After his clothing was taken, after his clothing

10

at the brig?

11

A.

Reveille was sounded at 05, sir.

12

Q.

And what would happen after Reveille?

13

A.

After Reveille we give them time to wake up and then we

14

sound--we sound morning count.

15

Q.

And what time would count be usually?

16

A.

That was usually possibly 10 minutes after Reveille.

17

Q.

And what is count?

18

A.

Count is--We go through three times a day to count all the

19

prisoners to ensure that we have all the prisoners inside the

20

facility and nobody has escaped or nobody is missing.

21

Q.

And is count always at exactly at the same time?

22

A.

Generally it is but it all depends on the OPTEMPO of the

23

facility.

So, there are some deviations, sir.

3836

07719

1

Q.

Does count vary a little to make it harder to predict?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And why is that?

4

A.

Just to ensure that there isn’t a pattern formed.

5

Q.

Would there be a stand-by for count?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And when would that usually be?

8

A.

Stand-by for count was normally sounded approximately 5

9
10
11
12
13

minutes before count.
Q.

And so, we have Reveille, we have count, when does PFC

Manning usually get his gear back?
A.

On my duty days, my section normally they would actually

put his clothes in the feed tray to his cell prior to Reveille.

14

Q.

What time prior to Reveille?

15

A.

I’m not exactly sure.

16

I just--I know maybe 5 minutes to

Reveille.

17

Q.

And that was the routine while you were DBS?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And while you were DBS was PFC Manning ever required to

20

stand naked at either attention or parade rest?

21

A.

No, sir.

22

Q.

And when PFC Manning was given his clothing in the morning

23

what was he supposed to do?

3837

07720

1
2

A.

He was supposed to put his clothing--he was supposed to

remove his suicide smock and apply--put his clothing on.

3

Q.

And when was he supposed to do that?

4

A.

Directly after--as soon as Reveille was sounded.

5

Q.

So before count?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And did you ever communicate this to him?

8

A.

I never had to.

9
10

clothing for count.
ATC[ CPT von ELTEN]:

11
12

I never had an issue with him not in his

Thank you.

No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. COOMBS]:

13

Q.

GM1 Webb, I just have a few questions for you, okay?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Alright.

16

Now, did you interact with Manning when you were

the DBS?

17

A.

Yes, I did.

18

Q.

And about how often?

19

A.

Any time when I had duty it was at a minimum it was twice a

20

day, sir.

21

Q.

22

to you?

And in your interactions with him was he always respectful

3838

07721

1
2

A.

Yes, sir, except for the one incident that we spoke about.

Other than that he was always respectful.

3

Q.

Was he disrespectful on that?

4

A.

No, sir.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

So, even including that incident he was always

respectful to you?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And he would immediately stand at parade rest when he spoke

9

to you?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Can you give me an example of maybe your typical

12
13

conversation with PFC Manning?
A.

Well I would come by after taking shift or any time I would

14

come in, I would say--I would great him with the greeting of the day,

15

good morning, good afternoon.

16

Manning.

17

All the time he would tell me he was fine.

18

any issues or any complaints.

19

or complaints.

20

fine, how’s chow, you know, is chow--are you getting enough chow, or

21

anything like that.

22

like, good to go.

23

to the next----

I would say, good morning Detainee

How are you doing today.

He would tell me he was fine.
I would ask him if he had

He would tell me that he had no issues

Sometimes I would ask him, you know, is the shower

He would tell me everything is fine.

I would be

Detainee Manning, carry on and then I would go on

3839

07722

1

Q.

The next detainee?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And comparing PFC Manning’s responses to you with the next

4

detainee’s responses, were they roughly about the same?

5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

A.

It--They would vary on any given day but for the most part,

Q.

Okay.

yes.
And from your observations PFC Manning’s behavior

seemed normal?
A.

For the most part.

Other than what I would hear.

Any time

I--anything that I physically saw was generally normal.
Q.

All right.

So everything that you saw with your eyes, he

looked normal to you?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

And he would engage in light conversation with you when you

15

talked?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

You never saw him exhibit any strange behavior when you

18

were the DBS?

19

A.

While I was inside Special Quarters, no.

20

Q.

And taking aside the 18 January incident, his behavior for

21

the entire time that you were there was pretty much the same while he

22

was at Quantico?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

3840

07723

1

Q.

I’m sorry?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

So, aside from the 18 January incident you never noticed a

4

decline in his communication with you when you talked to him or what

5

he was doing?

6

A.

With me, no.

7

Q.

And to your recollection there was rarely ever a detainee

8

on the opposite side of PFC Manning?

9

A.

That is correct.

10

Q.

The only exception might be if they were sharing TV call?

11

A.

That is correct.

12
13

There was--I know there has been one but

it’s--it wasn’t very frequent that there was another one.
Q.

And because sometimes if there was a--if he had another

14

detainee next to him, like I said, for TV call they would be watching

15

television and not necessarily conversing with each other, right?

16

A.

That’s not correct.

I--They’ve had a conversation before.

17

I’ve actually received reports from another detainee requesting not

18

to speak with Detainee Manning.

19
20
21

Q.

Okay.

So, one time you receive a request from another

detainee not to speak with PFC Manning?
A.

Correct.

3841

07724

1

Q.

From your observation when you were seeing him on 18

2

January, it was you Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline

3

bringing him out for his recreation call?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And Lance Corporal Tankersly escorted PFC Manning out of

6

the cell once the restraints were placed on him?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And told him to face Alpha Row exit?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And PFC Manning complied with that?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

What he failed to do apparently was say, yes, or Aye, Aye

13

Lance Corporal?

14

A.

That’s correct.

15

Q.

And Lance Corporal Tankersly immediately corrected him?

16

A.

That is correct.

17

Q.

And at that point Lance Corporal Tankersly said, hey, when

18

you get instruction you need to say, Aye, Aye, Lance Corporal?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And from your observation PFC Manning looked back at him,

21

didn’t really say anything and you couldn’t tell if he was confused

22

or not?

23

A.

That is correct.

3842

07725

1

Q.

And he didn’t immediately reply to him and then Lance

2

Corporal Tankersly again, repeated, look, when someone gives you a

3

direction you need to say Aye, Aye and----

4

A.

That was actually--That was said by me.

I instructed him

5

that any time he was spoken to by a staff inside the facility he

6

needs to address them with the proper title.

7

Q.

And we’ll get to that in a moment.

So, you don’t recall

8

Lance Corporal Tankersly telling him again, look, when he didn’t get

9

an immediate reply?

10

A.

Not to my recollection, I don’t remember.

11

Q.

Do you recall where Lance Corporal Tankersly eventually

12
13
14
15
16

said, let’s go to PFC Manning and PFC Manning said---A.

I remember let’s go being said.

I don’t remember exactly

who said let’s go.
Q.

And do you recall after him saying lets go that is where

PFC Manning said no way?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And that is when you went to him and you said to him listen

19

PFC Manning, when someone gives you direction and guidance you need

20

to respond doing it and you also need to say their name and rank?

21

A.

Yes, yes.

22

Q.

Is that in your memory now?

23

A.

Yes, yes, I remember saying that.

3843

07726

1
2

Q.

Okay.

And so at that point when you said that PFC Manning

replied to you, yes, GM2 Webb?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

Then you go down to the recreation room and obviously

5

before you are moving him lock down is commenced in the facility,

6

right?

7

A.

That is correct, sir.

8

Q.

So, that means that the entire facility is locked down.

9

There are no other detainees out of their cells?

10

A.

That is correct.

11

Q.

And that is because PFC Manning was considered MAX and POI

12
13
14
15

That is correct.

and that was the requirements for that?
A.

Because he was in maximum custody that was the requirements

for maximum custody.
Q.

Okay.

And so then you get into the recreation room and

16

when you are in there PFC Manning still is in full restraints,

17

correct?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And somebody is holding on to him because he is in full

20

restraints?

21

A.

That is correct.

22

Q.

You don’t want him to fall down?

23

A.

Correct.

3844

07727

1
2

Q.

Tankersly says stop moving?

3
4
5
6
7
8

And at that point your memory is that Lance Corporal

A.

No, prior to removing his restraints he told him not to

Q.

Okay.

move.
I’m not doing a timing thing but at some point when

he’s standing there in full restraints he is told to stop moving?
A.

He doesn’t tell him to stop moving, he just tells him,

don’t move.

9

Q.

Okay.

All right.

Tells him don’t move?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And then PFC Manning replies back to him, I’m not moving?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And at that point Lance Corporal Tankersly again because he

14

just says I’m not moving corrects him and says, look you need to

15

respond with, you know, Aye, Aye Lance Corporal?

16

A.

Something to that effect, yes.

17

Q.

And do you recall at that point Lance Corporal Tankersly

18

saying or somebody else saying, are we going to have a problem, don’t

19

you understand what the directive is?

20

A.

I do not.

I do not recall that being said.

21

Q.

You don’t recall that?

22

A.

I don’t recall that being said.

3845

I’m not sure.

07728

1
2

Q.

Okay.

So, the restraints are taken from PFC Manning and at

that point then he falls back on his buttocks, right.

3

A.

That is correct.

4

Q.

And I know from what you talked about, you reached out to

5

try to grab him?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And so did Lance Corporal----

8

A.

Lance Corporal Tankersly.

9

Q.

----Tankersly?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

But neither one of you could get to him quickly enough to

12

avoid him from falling down?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And when you said he fell down on his buttocks, you know if

15

I’m standing here and I decide to fall down, I can first bend my

16

knees in order to kind of brace the fall.

17

did?

Is that what PFC Manning

18

A.

No, sir.

19

Q.

So he fell down?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

So there wasn’t a--From your observation it looked like he

22
23

passed out?
A.

No, sir.

3846

07729

1
2
3
4
5
6

Q.

What did it--Did it look like he just lost control of his

legs or something?
A.

Oh, when he fell down, his--he fell on his legs straight

but he bent at the waist to a seated position.
Q.

Okay.

waist?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

So, so not bending the knees but bending at the

So, he falls down and when you don’t get to him then

from your memory, does he say anything at that point?

10

A.

Not at that point, no.

11

Q.

You don’t recall him saying something like, no wait, stop,

12

or anything?

13

A.

I don’t recall that.

I just--From my memory I remember him

14

immediately jumping right back up and then running to--running behind

15

one of the machines.

16
17

Q.

Okay.

So he gets behind one of the machines and you said--

I think you told me he covered his face at that point?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And he started to make a sound?

20

A.

He was apologizing to myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly.

21

Q.

And I know, you testified that he said that.

22

any sounds at that point?

3847

Did he make

07730

1

A.

He was just saying that and like his lips were moving like

2

some sounds were coming out.

3

kind of like he was mumbling something.

4
5

Q.

I don’t know what he was saying, it was

And can you--Can you mimic what you recall him doing when

he made this sound?

6

A.

Well, once he--he was apologizing and then he had his hands

7

over his face [placing hands over his face] and he was just kind of

8

like his lips were moving like he was mumbling something.

9

sure what he was saying.

10
11

Q.
face.

All right.

I’m not

So, you, the witness put his hands over his

Do you recall him making any sounds?

12

A.

It was just mumbling.

13

Q.

Just mumbling?

14

A.

I couldn’t make out what was being said.

15

Q.

And what did the mumbling sound like?

16

A.

It sounded to me like maybe--possibly whimpering.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

No, sir.

19

Q.

And you said that he immediately apologized to you and to

20

Did you see any tears on PFC Manning’s face?

Lance Corporal?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And at that point my understanding is Gunny Sergeant Fuller

23

came into the room, is that right?

3848

07731

1

A.

No, after that----

2

Q.

At some point I guess he came in?

3

A.

At some point he came in, yes.

4

Q.

And that was because of what happened?

5

A.

Exactly.

6

Q.

And so Lance Corporal Cline I think then instructed PFC

7

Manning to take a seat in the chair?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

And then Gunny Sergeant Fuller comes up and he asks PFC

10

Manning what happened?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

And PFC Manning tells him that he’s--he felt like he was

13

being treated differently on this day?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And he said he felt like the guards were anxious and that

16

was making him anxious?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And he didn’t understand why the guards were anxious?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

And afterwards you, was it you or was it Gunny Sergeant

21
22
23

Fuller who decided to replace Tankersly and Cline?
A.

I believe it was my call to replace Lance Corporal

Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.

3849

07732

1
2

Q.

Okay, so you made the call to replace Lance Corporal

Tankersly and Cline with two other guards?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And that I believe was because that would defuse the

5

situation in your mind?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Because whatever the situation was it seemed to be coming

8

between PFC Manning and Tankersly and Cline as opposed to PFC Manning

9

and you?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

So then PFC Manning, once the--and the new guards are

12

replaced actually while he is still at rec call, correct?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And so then when you are at rec call he’s just doing his

15

rec call as normal?

16

A.

That is correct.

17

Q.

No other issues?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

And then when the rec call was done you put the restraints

20

back on?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And you escort, and before I guess you move him from the

23

rec area you lock down the facility again?

3850

07733

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

And then you move him back to his cell?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And remove the restraints?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And I imagine that whole process there from you there would

7

be several guidances given to PFC Manning or some other--one of the

8

other guards would give him like turn this way, face this way?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And was he replying as he is supposed to?

11

A.

From my memory, yes.

12

Q.

So you had no other issues getting him back into his cell?

13

A.

Right.

14

Q.

And as the DBS was it normal for you to be in the

15

observation booth?

Is that where you would normally stay?

16

A.

No, I had an office that was closer to master control.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

So that would be a place that you would just come

doing whatever your duties would be as the DBS?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

So, later that day then Chief Averhart comes to see PFC

21
22

Manning?
A.

Yes.

3851

07734

1
2
3

Q.

Do you recall how much longer after the rec call that this

A.

I’m not sure.

was?
Normally if I was in my office and I saw

4

Chief Averhart--Chief Warrant Officer Averhart going to Special

5

Quarters I would follow behind him to just--just to place myself

6

inside Special Quarters to remain, you know, to be accessible.

7

not sure what time that was or how much longer after that it was.

8
9
10

Q.

So, from today, I know it has been a long time, but today

your memory, you can’t really place that as being a half an hour
later, an hour later, two hours later?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

I am

But there came a time where Chief Averhart came in

to speak to PFC Manning?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And you weren’t there present for the conversation?

16

A.

No.

17

Q.

You were instead within the observation booth?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And you could hear things probably if the voice level was

20
21

high enough, right?
A.

Correct.

3852

07735

1

Q.

But it wasn’t like you and I talking right now where you

2

could hear word for word what was said?

3

Chief Averhart said to PFC Manning?

So, you don’t know what

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

And you don’t know what PFC Manning said back to Chief

6

Averhart?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

But there came a time where a voice was raised and that

9
10

caused you to kind of, I guess, divert your attention to what was
going on outside of the booth?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And when you looked up you saw PFC Manning, you said his

13

arms were flailing around I believe?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And was he striking himself at that point?

16

A.

I’m not sure if he was striking himself.

His hands were up

17

kind of by his face, kind of like this, you know, I’m not sure

18

exactly what he was doing.

19

was doing and at that time Chief Warrant Officer Averhart walked into

20

the Special Quarters and that’s when----

21
22

Q.

I just kind of looked up.

We’ll get to that.

I saw what he

So, I need to describe what you did.

So you put your hands up next to your head.

3853

From what you saw,

07736

1

apparently you were going, hands back and forth basically from your

2

shoulder to the front of your face?

3
4
5
6
7

A.

Well, I’m not exactly sure what he was doing with his

hands, just---Q.

How about just from what you recall though.

When you

looked up, what do you recall that you---A.

I just recall his hands were around his head, you know, I

8

don’t know if they were going back and forth or side to side, I’m not

9

exactly sure the motions, just his hands were moving around his head.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

All right.

13

So, his hands roughly up at his head level?

So, then at that point Chief Averhart comes

into the observation room?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Something to that effect, yes.

17

Q.

And so that told you, obviously that PFC Manning was going

18

to be moved.

19

A.

20

And he says, Special Move, Suicide Risk, or SR?

The special move part, was that the Code Blue part?

No, any time you do--we do special moves just his actions

caused me to call the Code Blue.

21

Q.

And did you call the Code Blue or did----

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

----Chief Averhart say, Code Blue?

3854

07737

1

A.

He didn’t say verbatim Code Blue, I called the Code Blue.

2

Q.

And why did you call the Code Blue?

3

A.

Because of his actions.

4

Q.

Whose actions?

5

A.

Just--Speaking--When he was speaking with the OIC, the

6

raised voice and the flaying, when Chief Warrant Officer Averhart

7

came in to--and in my mind that lead me to believe that something was

8

definitely out of the ordinary and I needed to have the SORT Team on

9

standby.

10
11

Q.

So you call--And that’s your memory that you’re the one

that called the Code Blue?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

So, you call the Code Blue, and how do you do that, is that

14

like over the mic, Code Blue?

15

A.

It’s over the two-way radios that we have.

16

Q.

Okay, so you say Code Blue, and was Chief Averhart present

17

when you called the Code Blue?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And he didn’t stand you down right immediately at that

20

point?

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

So, obviously then he must have concurred with your Code

23

Blue?

3855

07738

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And when you called Code Blue then what does that do?

3
4

What

domino effect does that have?
A.

Once I call a Code Blue master control they call over the

5

intercom system, they sound Code Blue over the intercom system

6

letting all the staff know what’s going on and at that time the SORT

7

Team or the extra guards that I have on my shift that were--they are

8

told before the shift who is on the SORT Team.

9

the locker and stand-by for me to unlock--or stand by for me to get

10
11
12
13

They know to go to

it opened so they can suit up in the--in their SORT Team gear.
Q.

All right.

So, you are in the observation room, you call

the Code Blue and then you go to what room to do the locker?
A.

Once I sound the Code Blue there is another person in

14

security, I forget which title it was but they actually--they--I’m

15

trying to remember they basically it’s like contraband control.

16

have the key to the SORT locker.

17

locker and then I go out to the--I go out to where the SORT Team is

18

suiting up to ensure that everybody is actually getting suited up.

They

So, once I call that they go to the

19

Q.

And where is this locker at?

20

A.

It’s on the outer--It’s on the outside of the--outside of

21
22
23

the solid court.
Q.

So when you say solid court, that’s the door, the hard,

metal door?

3856

07739

1

A.

No, there’s a--there’s a gate--right when you walk through

2

the front hatch for--to walk into the brig there’s that gate, there’s

3

two gates where one will open and you walk in and then the other one,

4

well, if you go around the corner prior to inter--going into the

5

solid court, right to that right then there’s a locker in there where

6

all the SORT gear is kept.

7

Q.

And tell me with solid court, what is that?

8

A.

It’s basically it’s a--it’s like a traffic control gate

9
10
11

sort of.

It’s to control who enters and exits the brig so that you

just don’t have one door open and people walking in and out.
Q.

All right.

So, once you walk in, that door opens, you walk

12

in the door closes, and then the other door will open once this door

13

is closed?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

So, then you meet in order to get essentially at the locker

16

make sure everyone is doing their job at that point, right?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And what is involved--with a Code Blue then that equates to

19
20
21
22
23

a forced extraction?
A.

Not necessarily, sir, they were just suiting up to be on

standby.
Q.

I’m saying is that’s what’s that is, then, everyone is

getting suited up to do a forced extraction?

3857

07740

1

A.

That’s correct.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

So, what’s involved then, you’re--how many people

are at this locker room?

4

A.

There are five people at the locker room.

5

Q.

And what do they do at that point?

6

A.

They--Everybody is suiting up in their gear.

7

Q.

And what kind of gear are they getting into?

8

A.

They have--There is a helmet with a face shield, there’s a

9

chest, like chest pads and arm pads; just mainly protective gear for

10

the people on the SORT Team to protect themselves from the inmate if

11

he becomes combative.

12
13
14

Q.

Okay.

And then you said there are five people.

Do each of

the five people have a different job?
A.

Yes, each person--each person has an individual job.

I’m

15

not sure of the numbers but there is one person their job is to

16

control the head to ensure that their head isn’t, you know, bashed

17

around anywhere.

18

another person the other arm, and the same thing for the legs and

19

then there are two people that actually, they hold the restraints.

20

So, everybody that goes in on the SORT Team they have a specific job

21

to do.

22
23

Q.

Another person their job is to control one arm,

My understanding from our conversation is at that point

when everyone gets suited up and you’re ready to do your job and

3858

07741

1

you’ve been briefed up, then you break out the video camera and you

2

go to each person and you have that person indicate what their job is

3

and what they are going to do?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And so that’s what you did in this case?

6

A.

I wasn’t----

7

Q.

Of getting suited up, right?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

And did you ever get to the point where you were doing the

10

camera thing?

11

A.

12

the SORT Team was suited up I was back inside Special Quarters.

13
14

I don’t believe we did because after I--after I saw that

Q.

Okay.

So, you get the--how much time goes by after the

Code Blue and where everyone is suited up and ready to go in?

15

A.

Approximately maybe 5 minutes.

16

Q.

Okay.

A.

When I walked back in we were--I believe we were still

17
18
19

And then you come in and what happens when you come

back?

trying to get compliance from Detainee Manning.

20

Q.

And compliance meaning what?

21

A.

We were--I think--I believe they requested to get his gear

22

from him.

I’m not 100 percent sure what was happening at that time.

23

It’s been a long time.

3859

07742

1
2
3

Q.

Okay.

Now, for the cell extraction part of it, had you

ever done a cell extraction before?
A.

We’ve done them in training for school and also training--

4

brig training.

5

practice Force Cell Extractions.

On our training days we still go through and we’ll

6

Q.

But for real, had you ever done a cell extraction?

7

A.

No, sir.

8

Q.

Was Detainee Manning or PFC Manning the type of detainee

9
10
11
12
13
14

that you would have envisioned the need to do a cell extraction on?
A.

Any type of detainee can have a cell extraction performed

on him so I mean---Q.

Based upon what you knew about him, did you envision him

the type of detainee you would have to do a cell extraction on?
A.

That’s not really something I can answer because at any

15

moment a detainee’s demeanor can change to where you have to perform

16

a forced cell extraction.

17
18

Q.

But from your memory of him he was always compliant,

correct?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

He was always respectful to you?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

So, and he, you know, he was always quiet?

23

A.

Correct.

3860

07743

1

Q.

Courteous?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

No odd behavior?

4

A.

While I was on duty, that’s correct.

5

Q.

And so from your observation from him he would not be the

6

type of person that you would normally think I need to extract that

7

guy?

8
9
10
11
12

A.

I would still say I can’t make that judgment because at a

moment’s notice I could--I would have to do a forced cell extraction
on any--on any inmate.
Q.

Okay.

So, then at some point, I guess when you come back

in you don’t have to do the cell extraction, right?

13

A.

That’s correct.

14

Q.

You are basically told to stand down?

15

A.

That is correct.

16

Q.

And at this point then PFC Manning is apparently compliant

17

because you are not going in for the cell extraction?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Now, PFC Manning is--then must--do you see him strip down

20

at that point to just his underwear?

21

A.

I’m not 100 percent sure.

22

Q.

So you don’t remember seeing him standing in just his

23

underwear?

3861

I can’t remember.

07744

1
2
3

A.

I believe if we did--if his status was changed to suicide

risk he would have been in his underwear.
Q.

I know it’s a long time ago, so from your memory do you

4

recall ever seeing, standing by and seeing Master Sergeant Papakie

5

and Gunny Sergeant Blenis talking to PFC Manning in just his

6

underwear?

7
8

A.

I’m not sure I--I don’t remember what he was wearing but I

do remember them talking to him.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

All right.

12

And do you remember standing there?

So, there is also a video camera.

Do you

remember the video camera?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And why was the video camera there?

15

A.

The video camera was there from the forced--from when we

16

were suited up for the forced cell extraction.

17

Q.

But why was the video camera being used at that point?

18

A.

I do not know.

19

Q.

From your position you would agree with me that it was

20

common understanding that at least at Quantico and higher that people

21

were paying attention to what was going with PFC Manning?

22

A.

People were paying attention inside the facility.

23

Q.

Including PFC Manning?

3862

07745

1

A.

Possibly, yes.

2

Q.

And you knew this because of the protests that were

3

happening outside the gate?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

You knew this because of the phone calls that were coming

6

to the brig?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And because of all the mail and the media inquiries that

9

you were getting?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And you said that there were numerous phone calls to the

12

brig especially at night?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And you specifically informed me that every time there was

15

a protest you were aware of that?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And you were aware of that because they put out information

18

that there’s a protest happening and, you know, what gates would be

19

closed and what alternative roads you would have to take, right?

20

A.

That is correct.

21

Q.

In fact there was one time where someone called and

22

ordered, apparently hundreds of dollars of pizza for the brig?

3863

07746

1
2

A.

That’s something that I heard about.

It didn’t happen

specifically to me.

3

Q.

But you heard about that?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And you are aware that the fact that one pizza place

6

stopped delivering to the brig because of that?

7

A.

That is correct, yes.

8

Q.

And no one thought that was funny, I imagine?

9

A.

[No response].

10

Q.

That was a no, I’m sorry?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

And you were aware that sometimes your superiors would come

13
14
15
16
17
18

to the brig to walk through and check on PFC Manning?
A.

I don’t believe they were there to check on PFC Manning.

Do you mean superiors as in our chain of command?
Q.

Exactly, that they--you know Colonel Oltman walked through

just to see what was going on with PFC Manning?
A.

There were a lot of different times when there were

19

superiors or higher-ups that did show up at the brig.

20

exactly sure if they were there or to see PFC Manning per se.

21
22

Q.

I’m not

Well, I mean, you were aware of a lot of VIP people coming

through and tour the brig?

3864

07747

1
2

A.

Yes, but not--they weren’t there--the VIPs that did come

through they were not there to see PFC Manning.

3

Q.

As far as to talk to him or anything, right?

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

No, but they walked through the brig and they took a look

6

They didn’t have any contact with PFC Manning.

at stuff?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9

MJ:

All Right.

Thank you GM1 Webb.

Redirect?

10

ATC[ CPT von ELTEN]:

11

MJ:

No, Your Honor.

GM1 Webb, I have a few questions.

12

3865

07748

1
2

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL
Questions by the military judge:

3

Q.

4

called?

5

A.

Duty Brig Supervisor, ma’am.

6

Q.

Duty Brig Supervisor, yes, excuse me.

7
8
9
10

When were you the guard duty supervisor, is that what it’s

From what period of

time to what period of time were you that?
A.

I don’t remember which day I made the Duty Brig Supervisor

position but I was a Duty Brig--it was approximately 2 months after I
arrived at the brig until my departure, ma’am.

11

Q.

That would be about September 2010?

12

A.

Yes, ma'am.

13

Q.

Until you left?

14

A.

Yes, ma'am.

15

Q.

So, as the Duty Brig Supervisor did you do the count?

16

A.

Yes, ma'am.

17

Q.

Did you do the count every day?

18

A.

No, ma’am.

19

section.

20

section.

21
22
23

Q.

There were Duty Brig Supervisors for each duty

So, I was the Duty Brig Supervisor for my--for my duty

Did you, I don’t know if you remember this, were you the

Duty Brig Supervisor between the 3rd and 6th of March?
A.

I cannot recollect, ma’am.

3866

07749

1
2

Q.

Do you ever remember a time where PFC Manning was standing

naked in front of you at a count?

3

A.

No, ma'am, not in front of me.

4

Q.

When do the guard shifts change?

5

A.

There was a--We changed shift at 0800.

6

Q.

How many shifts are there?

7

A.

There is one shift per day, ma’am.

8

Q.

You mean, one shift at 0800 to 0--when do they stop?

9

A.

Till 0800 the following morning, ma’am.

10

Q.

So it is a 24-hour shift?

11

A.

Yes, ma'am.

12

Q.

Okay.

13
14

During March of 2011, how many guards would be in

the observation area at night, like right before Reveille?
A.

Ma’am, it would depend on the status of the prisoners that

15

we have.

16

there was always at least two, ma’am.

If we had a suicide risk there was always an extra body so

17

Q.

What about a POI?

18

A.

A POI I believe there was still only two, ma’am.

19
20
21
22
23

A suicide

risk was the only time we added an extra guard.
Q.

You--Before the 18th of January had you been involved in

taking PFC Manning to rec call?
A.

Yes, ma'am.

For my shift it was either myself or my watch

supervisor that took him every single one of his rec calls.

3867

07750

1

Q.

In the prior occasions when--well, first of all let me make

2

sure I understand the protocol.

So, when you’re putting the

3

restraints on and the order--what order is typically given?

4

A.

When we apply the restraints----

5

Q.

Yes.

6

A.

----and when we remove the restrains we always instruct the

7

inmates not to move while we are doing so.

8

Q.

That’s given in every time you do that?

9

A.

Yes, ma'am.

10

Q.

And what is the inmate supposed to do when you give that

11
12
13

order?
A.

They are supposed to respond yes or no and the person’s

title.

14

Q.

Is there a difference with responding yes or no or aye?

15

A.

No, ma'am.

16

Q.

Are they supposed to respond aye?

17

A.

They can either respond yes or no or Aye, ma’am.

18

Q.

Now in your own words how would you--the detainee is told,

19

Detainee Jones, don’t move.

20

out of Detainee Jones’ mouth?

What exact words are supposed to come

21

A.

They would either say, Aye, Aye--Aye, GM1 or yes, GM1.

22

Q.

Are they are required to add their name like Detainee Jones

23

says Aye, or Detainee Jones----

3868

07751

1

A.

No, ma'am.

2

Q.

Was there a protest that you were aware of on or close to

3

the 18th of January of 2011?

4

A.

I do not remember the dates, ma’am.

5

Q.

Did you talk at all to, before going to rec call do you

6

remember did you talk at all to Lance Corporals Tankersly or Cline?

7

A.

Just inside the--inside the down-time shack----

8

Q.

Yes.

9

A.

----while they were--they were actually escorts throughout

10

the day so while we were in there just informing them that we are

11

going to be--going to do Detainee Manning’s rec call.

12

Q.

Did they have any reaction to that?

13

A.

No, ma'am.

14

Q.

What did you call it, down-time shack, is that what you

A.

Well, it’s not actually the down-time shack.

15
16
17
18
19

said?
It’s just

the--it’s the guard lounge.
Q.

To your memory do you remember any discussion about

protests?

20

A.

No, ma'am.

21

Q.

If I remember your testimony, you said that when you got to

22

the rec call after the--well, before I get there was there, when

23

these instructions were given by Corporal Tankersly and Corporal

3869

07752

1

Cline was there any difference in the tenor of their voice then there

2

would have been otherwise?

3
4
5
6
7

A.

When he did not comply, Lance Corporal Tankersly did speak

to Detainee Manning sternly.
Q.

Which time--I thought he didn’t comply a couple of times.

Did he---A.

No, this was initially when he--when he first walked in, or

8

when he first told him to face Alpha Row and he didn’t respond he was

9

spoken to--he spoke with him sternly and informed him to say, Aye,

10
11

Aye, Lance Corporal.
Q.

Okay.

So, I understand your testimony that he did what

12

the--what Lance Corporal Tankersly wanted him to do, he just didn’t

13

respond?

14

A.

Yes, ma’am.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Yes, ma'am.

17

Q.

And what was PFC Manning’s reaction at that time?

18

A.

Initially he didn’t--he didn’t really say anything.

19

So, he said that sternly at that point?

He

just kind of stood--he just kind of stared at him kind of blankly.

20

Q.

And is that when you corrected him or was that----

21

A.

Well, after that--that was--initially when he faced that

22

way I believe Lance Corporal Tankersly said it again and then after

3870

07753

1

that I corrected him after we proceeded--after we started to proceed

2

to rec call and Detainee Manning said, no, stop.

3

Q.

And your correction was, tell me one more time?

4

A.

I instructed him that he was a detainee inside the facility

5

and that any time he is addressed by staff he needs to address them

6

with yes, no, and their rank or yes, no, sir, ma’am, or their rank.

7

Q.

And what was his reaction to that?

8

A.

He responded, yes, GM2.

9

Q.

In the room after PFC Manning fell down and went behind the

10

machine, how long was he there with his arms, you testified that his

11

arms were over his face?

12

A.

Yes, ma'am.

13

Q.

I believe you said, who ordered--Lance Corporal Cline

14
15
16

It was a couple of seconds.

ordered him to?
A.

I--We grabbed a chair and I--or I told Lance Corporal Cline

to get the chair to have him sit down.

17

Q.

Did he comply immediately with that order?

18

A.

Yes, ma'am.

19

Q.

Did he say yes, Lance Corporal or----

20

A.

No, he did not.

21

Q.

Okay.

22
23

Well, what was his demeanor while he was sitting in

the chair?
A.

I do not remember, ma’am.

3871

07754

1

Q.

You testified earlier that Chief Averhart went to see PFC

2

Manning later after rec call and you don’t remember the amount of

3

time between rec call and when he went to see him.

4

if rec call was in the morning or the afternoon or at night?

5
6

A.

Do you remember

Yeah, the rec call was, I believe it was late morning,

ma’am.

7

Q.

8

change?

9

A.

No, ma’am.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Ma’am, I meant late morning as in possibly 10 o’clock or 11

12
13

o’clock.
Q.

14

Manning?

15

and left?

16
17
18
19

Would the visit have been before the 0800 guard shift

A.

Did you talk to Chief Averhart before he went to see PFC
Did you know he was going to go before he actually got up

No, ma’am, it wasn’t uncommon for Chief Warrant Officer

Averhart to go through and speak with all the inmates.
Q.

What was his demeanor when he was walking to go see PFC

Manning?

20

A.

Nothing out of the ordinary, ma’am.

21

Q.

Was he angry?

22

A.

No, ma'am.

23

Q.

Did you hear his voice raise?

3872

07755

1

A.

No, ma'am.

2

Q.

Have you seen other inmates, I guess, raise their voice or

3

get excited when--with Chief Averhart?

4

A.

Not with Chief Averhart, ma’am.

5

Q.

So, in brig scenarios how big of a, I’ll use the French

6
7
8
9
10
11

word faux pas is that for a detainee?
A.

It’s extremely--It’s an extremely big deal to show

disrespect to the--to the commanding officer of the brig.
Q.

Was Chief Averhart angry about--angry after the disrespect

was shown?
A.

When he came in and instructed me for the special move, he

12

didn’t seem angry.

13

me to do the special move.

14
15

Q.

It was just--he seemed stern when he instructed

If someone is disrespectful to the commander of the brig,

does that normally trigger a suicide move?

16

A.

It--Well, it’s never happened before, ma’am.

17

Q.

The disrespect has never happened?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

What typically happens when there are disciplinary problems

20

in the brig?

21

A.

All depending on the severity there will be a--they will be

22

placed on pending investigation--administrative segregation pending

23

investigation status.

They would be moved.

3873

Their cell will be moved

07756

1

either to, I believe it is Charlie Row or Delta Row or they will be

2

moved to Special Quarters 2 depending on the severity, ma’am.

3

with a disciplinary report being written.

Along

4

Q.

But there would always be a special move at that time?

5

A.

Yes, ma'am.

6

MJ:

I think I’m finished.

7

ATC[ CPT von ELTEN]:

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9
10

Any follow up based on that?

Nothing further, Your Honor.
Yes, ma'am.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. COOMBS]:

11

Q.

GM1 Webb, what is your current position again?

12

A.

My current position?

13

Q.

Yeah, what are you doing now?

14

A.

Oh, I work at the Naval Munitions Command in Norfolk,

15

Virginia.

16

Q.

And what do you there?

17

A.

We run the--We run the armory for the EAL Squadrons for

18
19
20

that fleet.
Q.

And my understanding from our conversation, this was the

first time you worked in corrections?

21

A.

That’s correct.

22

Q.

And since leaving some of the terminology and stuff has

23

left you because you are no longer using it day-to-day?

3874

07757

1

A.

That’s correct.

2

Q.

The idea of responding with an Aye, or a yes, do you recall

3

whether or not an aye would be a response, a correct response for an

4

action that has been ordered and a yes, meaning an understanding?

5

you recall that at all?

Do

6

A.

I don’t recall.

7

Q.

So, if someone was told to do something an Aye, Aye; and if

8

they were asked if they understand then a yes?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Does that make sense to you?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Okay.

And then using your name like Detainee Coombs, it

13

would--would I use my name in the third person if I’m requesting

14

something like, Detainee Coombs request X?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

You never heard that?

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

Okay.

You were asked a question about whether or not when

19

you were the DBS you ever saw PFC Manning stand naked in front of his

20

cell.

You answered no?

21

A.

That is correct, sir.

22

Q.

As the DBS, if you were coming in for count and you looked

23

over and saw a detainee standing naked what would you do?

3875

07758

1
2

A.

I would immediately correct the situation and instruct him

to get dressed.

3

Q.

And if the detainee refused what happens?

4

A.

Then we would--I would secure count.

He would be--A DR

5

would be written for interfering with count, and I would call over

6

the radio to have the rest of the--you know, to have some of the

7

other guards come in also.

8
9
10

Q.

So, you would--You at least as the DBS would immediately

correct the situation.

It wouldn’t be well, he’s naked, count, and

keep on going?

11

A.

That is correct.

12

Q.

If the detainee was naked and you corrected them and said,

13

hey, you know get in clothes and they start to get dressed, would you

14

document that somehow that they were standing naked in front of their

15

cell?

16

A.

Yes, I would.

17

Q.

And why would you do that?

18

A.

To ensure that if it’s a pattern that is forming we need to

19
20
21
22

have documentation that that event actually did happen.
Q.

And I imagine it would also be important because as you

said, interfering with the count is a problem, correct?
A.

That is correct.

3876

07759

1
2

Q.

And then also you expect detainees to follow certain

requirements immediately?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

That’s the whole idea of responding with I understand and

5

rank, correct?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And when detainees are allowed not to follow the exact

8

rigid rules that’s where control within the brig might start to slip

9

a little bit?

10

A.

That is correct.

11

Q.

And you don’t let that happen, right?

12

A.

No we don’t.

13

Q.

And that’s because you enforce it as soon as you see

14

something that is wrong?

15

A.

That is correct.

16

Q.

There was another question on--you said the issue on the

17
18
19

rec call happened around 1000 you thought?
A.

I am not sure of the exact time but I do remember it being

a little bit later in the morning.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

Or later in the--Yeah, later in the morning.

22

Q.

All right.

23

A.

I can’t recall 100 percent if that’s when it happened.

So, sometime before lunch though?

3877

07760

1

Q.

And I’m not really trying to pin you done like a particular

2

time but just from the best of your memory it was sometime in the

3

late morning, is that right?

4
5
6
7

A.

Yes, sir.

I do know it was written on the incident report,

the time of the incident should have been written down then.
Q.

Do you know how long after the incident you filled out your

incident report?

8

A.

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

10

That would have been a little bit later in the afternoon.
I’m handing the witness what’s been marked

as Appellate Exhibit 428.

11

Q.

GM1 Webb, do you recognize that?

12

A.

Yes, I do.

13

Q.

And what is that?

14

A.

This is the incident report that I wrote after the

15
16
17
18

incident.
Q.

And from your memory, how long after the incident did you

write up this report?
A.

As soon as everything calmed down and the brig was brought

19

back to normal operations, everybody involved when to write their

20

incident reports.

21
22
23

Q.

Do you know if you wrote this incident report before or

after Chief Averhart went to see PFC Manning?
A.

This was after.

3878

07761

1

Q.

So, this would have been even after that then?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And what time is that?

6

A.

That’s 1319.

7

Q.

All right.

8

And do you see the time of your incident report?

So 1319 would have been the--obviously that is

after Chief Averhart going to see PFC Manning, correct?

9

A.

No, the 1319 would have been the time of the incident.

10

Q.

Now, I’m--I want to make sure I understand.

I thought what

11

you said was you would have written up this incident report after

12

everything was done?

13

A.

Right.

14

Q.

And you thought that you wrote up this incident report

15

after Chief Averhart went to go speak to PFC Manning?

16
17
18
19

A.

Right.

After all of that--After all of that had happened

Q.

Okay, so the whole incident with the Code Blue and all that

yes.

stuff happened before you wrote this?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

So, I think that definitely happened sometime in the

22
23

morning?
A.

Yes.

3879

07762

1

Q.

And then obviously whatever time the rec call was, Chief

2

Averhart going to speak with PFC Manning must have been shortly there

3

after that?

4

A.

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

6

Yes.
All right.

I’m retrieving from the witness

Appellate Exhibit 428.

7

MJ:

Mr. Coombs, I don’t want to interrupt your flow but just so

8

I understand, this time of 1319, is this the time that you wrote the

9

report or is this the time that the incident happened?

10

WIT: That’s the time of the incident, ma’am.

11

MJ:

12

WIT: I believe the time is at the bottom.

13

Okay.

There should be a

time there.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

ma’am, thank you.

16

428.

17

Is there a time on here where you wrote the report?

Q.

And then, I’m glad for the clarification,

I’m handing back to the witness Appellate Exhibit

Why don’t we do this.

Why don’t you take a look at it and

18

in looking at that what time would you say you filled out this

19

report?

20

A.

By looking at it I would say 1325.

21

Q.

Is when you actually filled the report out?

22

A.

That would have been the time the report was--so--it’s been

23

a long time since I dealt with brig, I believe this was the time the

3880

07763

1

report was started and then this is the time the report was

2

completed.

3
4

Q.

Okay.

So, the report was started, when you say this is the

time, you are pointing to 1319?

5

A.

1319, yes.

6

Q.

And the time the report was completed, 1325?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And.

9
10

Okay, so that would have been the time of the report.

What about the time of the incident, does that--is that captured
anywhere in the report?

11

A.

I’m honestly not sure because I also see down here that I

12

signed the report at 1535 on that date.

13

since I have seen an incident report or dealt with anything inside a

14

brig.

15

Q.

No, I understand.

So, it’s been a long time

Just to look at it for a moment, and

16

then, I mean, I know it is a little unnerving to be on the stand, but

17

just look at it for a moment and if you can say from this, if you

18

know, the time that you think you would have filled out this report

19

if it is still the 1319?

20

A.

I believe the report would have been filled out at 1535

21

since that’s the date and time I signed it.

22

filled out the report and then the 1319 would have been the time of

23

the incident.

3881

I signed it after I

07764

1

Q.

That’s what you think from looking at the report?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

the rec area?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

So, from 1319 to at the latest 1535 that’s where everything

So, incident meaning the time that this happened in

7

would have had to have happened between the rec and Chief Averhart,

8

the Code Blue and all that stuff?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Because you do recall filling this out after all that was

12

A.

Yes.

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

14

done?

Okay.

Retrieving Appellate Exhibit 428 from

the witness.

15

Ma’am, that’s all the questions I have.

16

MJ:

17

ATC[ CPT von ELTEN]:

Nothing from the government?
No, ma’am.

18

[The witness was duly warned, permanently excused, and withdrew from

19

the courtroom.]

20
21

MJ:

All right.

Any further order of march this evening or

should we call it a day and reconvene tomorrow?

3882

07765

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma’am, if we could have a 10-minute recess or 15-

2

minute recess for a comfort break and we will figure that out and

3

come back on the record.

4
5

MJ:

All right.

Just come on into my office for an 802 and let

me know before we come back on the record.

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

MJ:

Yes, ma'am.

Court is in recess until 6:35 or 1835.

8

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1820, 30 November 2012.]

9

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1841, 30 November

10
11

2012.]
MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

12

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

13

again present in court.

14

Counsel and I met briefly for an R.C.M. 802 Conference.

15

What that is as I have told you before is where I talk about

16

scheduling and logistic issues in the case.

17

advised me that they wish not to call any more witnesses this evening

18

and begin again tomorrow.

19

discussed the next session.

20

going to be Wednesday through Friday of next week, which is 5 through

21

7 December.

22
23

The government has

The defense has concurred.

We have also

If you remember I said yesterday it is

We’ve talked--Well, Major Fein?

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, ma’am, United States and I’m sorry for this

unplanned comment is that further discussed in a few minutes and when

3883

07766

1

we discuss the calendar tomorrow could we then finalize whether we

2

push through next weekend or start the next week.

3

this resolution in your office but there might be other issues

4

outstanding.

5
6

MJ:

Well, let me tell you what was discussed and I thought was

resolved.

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

8

MJ:

9

I know we came to

I’m sorry, Your Honor.

But apparently is not resolved.

We had talked about

pushing the case into the weekend next week just because we have so

10

many witnesses to go through so it would be starting Wednesday the

11

5th as we had talked about potentially going through Sunday the 9th.

12

That is apparently not final yet.

13

because we will definitely be going Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of

14

next week.

15

think is still up in the air at issue, but we will have more finality

16

on that within the next couple of days certainly before we recess the

17

court for this session.

18

Whether we go through the weekend or restart on Monday I

Is there anything else I need to address on the record?

19

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

20

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

21

MJ:

22
23

I just bring it to your attention

No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.

Court is in recess.

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1843, 30 November 2012.]
[END OF PAGE]

3884

07767

1

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1050, 1 December

2

2012.]

3

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

4

record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed are

5

again present in court.

6

me, I believe -- except the Court reporter.

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Major Fein is going to stand up and correct

Yes, ma’am, with one exception, Staff Sergeant

8

Hadaway is absent as court reporter and Mr. Robertshaw is present and

9

is previously sworn.

10

MJ:

All right.

Thank you.

All right, for the record, I note

11

we are getting started a little bit late.

12

at 9:30.

13

of some automation glitches.

14

elaborate?

15
16

It’s now a quarter to 11.

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

MJ:

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

19

MJ:

I believe that was as a result

Major Fein, would you care to

Yes, ma’am, the audio/video system as not working

this morning for a teleconference.

17

We were supposed to start

And the system has been fixed.

All right.
We’re ready to go now, ma’am.

And I note for the record I have Appellate Exhibits 429,

20

430, 431 and 432.

Those are filings from last evening.

21

the defense response to the motion -- government motion in limine to

22

exclude motive evidence.

23

Exhibit 430 is the defense response to the government motion for

That’s Appellate Exhibit 429.

3885

And they are

Appellate

07768

1

judicial notice.

Appellate Exhibit 431 is the government response to

2

defense motion for judicial notice of HR 553 and Congressional

3

hearings discussing classification.

4

is the government response to defense motion for judicial notice of

5

ONCIX IRTF and DoS damage assessments.

6

litigated at a future proceeding.

7

of days the parties and the Court are still working out the remaining

8

court calendar in light of issues that have arisen in the case.

9

There will be some changes that will be made to it.

And Appellate Exhibit 432, which

These motions will be

As I discussed in the last couple

At this point,

10

again, we are definitely going Wednesday, Thursday and Friday next

11

week.

12

at that point.

Beyond that we’re still negotiating how we’re going to proceed
Is that the understanding of the parties?

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

15

MJ:

16

morning.

17

scheduling issues that are going to arise in cases.

18

the automation challenges we were facing this morning, we also

19

discussed the Article 13 motion currently at issue in this case and

20

the potential of additional witnesses by the government.

21

would you like to elaborate for the record?

22
23

Yes, Your Honor.

Yes, Your Honor.

Counsel and I met briefly at an R.C.M. 802 conference this
Once again, that’s when -- where I discuss logistic and

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, Your Honor.

In addition to

Major Fein,

During the session the United

States explained to the Court and the defense that based on the

3886

07769

1

accused’s testimony over the last two days it appears there is

2

another possible Article 13 issue that was raised about the accused’s

3

confinement in Kuwait.

4

not being previously alleged by the defense in their motion, the

5

United States intends or requests to call additional witnesses that

6

were actually in Kuwait with the accused to really complete the

7

record and really lay out the facts there in case there is an

8

argument made later about unlawful pretrial punishment or possible --

9

occurring in Kuwait.

10

MJ:

All right, Mr. Coombs, what’s the defense’s position on

11

that?

12

in your motion.

13

And based off of that being on the record and

You did not raise any unlawful pretrial punishment in Kuwait

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

That is correct, Your Honor, and we’re not

14

alleging that here today either.

15

information to the Court in order to get context to one of the main

16

reasons Quantico continued its MAX and POI custody of PFC Manning,

17

but really -- in order to explain one of the justifications that

18

Quantico continually looked back to.

19

went into what happened at Quantico -- or excuse me, what happened in

20

Kuwait and how PFC Manning was then transferred from Kuwait to

21

Quantico Marine Corps Base in Quantico.

22
23

MJ:

What we did is we provided that

So that was the reason why we

So as I understand this; the defense didn’t allege a

violation of Article 13 during PFC Manning’s time in Kuwait and does

3887

07770

1

not do so today?

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

3

MJ:

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5

MJ:

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

MJ:

8
9
10

And will not do so in the future?

All right.

You’re welcome, Your Honor.

All right, in light of what the defense just told me, Major

Fein, is there any necessity for additional witnesses?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:
MJ:

Not at this time, Your Honor.

All right.

Is there anything else we need to address

before we proceed?

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

MJ:

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

That is correct, Your Honor.
Thank you.

11

16

That is correct, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.
No, Your Honor.

Major Fein?
Your Honor, the United States requests an in-

place recess briefly to get the phone call.
MJ:

That’s fine.

Court is in recess in place.

18

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1054, 1 December 2012.]

19

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1056, 1 December

20

2012.]

21

MJ:

The Court is called to order.

Let the record reflect all

22

parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in

23

court.

Just before we proceed, the Court notes for the record

3888

07771

1

apparently there was additional automation glitches between here and

2

the audio feed that the courtroom has outside.

3

the Court has allowed the people who are watching the proceedings

4

from the audio feed to come into the courtroom and has made an

5

exception for allowing computers and other equipment to type record

6

what they are hearing today.

7

certainly no televised -- television of the proceedings.

8

else that I need to address?

9

So in light of that,

There will be no photography and
Anything

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: No, Your Honor.

10

MJ:

Please call the witness.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma’am, the United States call Mr. Joshua

12

Tankersley.

13

[The witness was presented to the Court telephonically.]

14

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Mr. Tankersley?

15

WIT: Yes, sir.

16

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Good morning.

This is Captain von Elten.

17

You’re now before the court-martial of The United States v. Bradley

18

Manning.

19

WIT: Yes, sir.

20

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: And where are you?

21

WIT: I’m at my mother-in-law’s house.

22

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: And are you able to testify freely?

23

WIT: Yes, sir.

3889

07772

1

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Are you alone?

2

WIT: Yes, sir.

3

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Do you have any notes with you?

4

WIT: I do not.

5

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: If anything should arise that will interfere

6

with your testimony, please notify the court.

7

WIT: Yes, sir.

8

JOSHUA TANKERSLEY, civilian, was called as a witness telephonically

9

for the prosecution, was sworn, and testified as follows:

10
11

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the assistant trial counsel:

12

Q.

For the record, Mr. Tankersley, where do you live right

14

A.

Gray Court, South Carolina.

15

Q.

Mr. Tankersley, how long did you serve in the Marines?

16

A.

Five years.

17

Q.

And how many of those years did you serve in the

13

18

now?

corrections -- in corrections?

19

A.

Around four years.

20

Q.

And you’re no longer currently serving in the Marines?

21

A.

No, sir.

22
23

3890

07773

1

Q.

Did you get any schooling for corrections while you were in

2

the Marines?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Could you please describe that?

5

A.

That was in Lackland Air Force Base in Texas.

And it was

6

around a month -- a little more than a month long.

And we just --

7

they just taught us the -- how to do our job pretty much.

8

Q.

And who takes that course?

9

A.

Every -- everybody who works in a brig that is in the Air

10
11

Force, Navy or Marines.
Q.

All right.

Thank you, Mr. Tankersley.

Let’s talk a little

12

bit about your background or your experience at -- generally at

13

Marine Corps Base Quantico.

14

Quantico?

When were you stationed at the Brig at

15

A.

March 1st, 2010 to June 29th, 2012.

16

Q.

And what were your duty titles at the Brig?

17

A.

Special quarters supervisor, master control supervisor,

18
19
20
21

dorm supervisor, MAX deck supervisor.
Q.

Now I want to ask you a few questions about those.

What

did you do as the special quarters supervisor?
A.

Just making sure that all the prisoners in special quarters

22

were taken care of as in, you know, they -- they got their food on

23

time, all their -- whatever they needed was taken care of.

3891

07774

1

Q.

And what did you do as the dorm supervisor?

2

A.

Just -- it’s the same thing.

3

It’s just that it’s a

different setting.

4

Q.

What setting is that?

5

A.

They have -- if I remember correctly, 12 to -- 12 to 15

6

beds laid out in a row and just one big room.

7

you watch them.

8
9

Q.

And you sit there and

And was that while the Brig at Quantico still had prisoners

in dorm facilities?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And what did you do as the master quarters supervisor -- or

12
13

master control supervisor?
A.

You control all the gates -- all the hatches to the

14

building.

You control the announcements.

Have all the keys to

15

everywhere in the building.

You keep a log of all your announcements

16

-- everything that comes in.

You sign -- you or somebody will help

17

you sign in people when they come in the front hatch.

18

just control the facility.

Pretty much

19

Q.

Mr. Tankersley, did you ever work as an escort?

20

A.

I have, yes, sir.

21

Q.

And in all of your roles how often did you interact with

22
23

the prisoners at the Brig?
A.

Daily.

3892

07775

1

Q.

And how would you interact with them?

2

A.

Professionally.

3

Q.

Would you talk to them?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

How much would you talk to them?

6

A.

Not -- just to find out if they were okay, you know, if

I mean, it was my job.

7

they needed me to get somebody else to come talk to them because my

8

job wasn’t to have conversations, it was to, you know, just to make

9

sure they were all right.

10

Q.

So why didn’t you talk with them more?

11

A.

That’s -- that’s not my job.

12
13
14
15

There was -- we had

counselors for that.
Q.

Is it appropriate for guards to talk to prisoners

regularly?
A.

You do it -- you talk to them, you know, how are you doing?

16

You know, make sure everything’s okay regularly.

17

conversations; no it’s not.

But to go in depth

18

Q.

And how often would you move prisoners in maximum custody?

19

A.

They’re supposed to get an hour of rec’ call every day, so

20
21
22
23

you would move them every day.
Q.

And do you remember when you first started moving maximum

custody prisoners?
A.

Since my time at Quantico?

3893

07776

1

Q.

Yes, Mr. Tankersley.

2

A.

I -- not really.

I mean I did it -- whenever we had a MAX

3

I did it every day.

It’s not something that I put in my mind and

4

remember every day that I move somebody or when I started moving

5

them.

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Do you remember any protest around that time?

9

A.

I think there was a couple.

10

Let’s talk a little bit about 18 January 2011.

In particularly I remember a

Code Pink, I think it was.

11

Q.

And how would you know that there was a protest?

12

A.

The news.

13

Q.

Would the Brig staff discuss the protests at all?

14

A.

Could you repeat the question?

15

Q.

Yes.

16

A.

Sure.

17
18
19

Would the Brig staff discuss the protests at all?
I mean, it was -- I mean -- I guess it was a big

topic, but nothing -- nothing really that big.
Q.

Did the protest affect the way the staff interacted with

the prisoners?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

Now let’s talk a little bit about moving PFC Manning on the

22
23

morning of 18 January 2011.
A.

Do you remember that?

Yes, sir.

3894

07777

1

Q.

And what -- how did it start?

2

A.

This was -- this was for his hour rec call that we did

3

daily, so we got hand -- we got restraints.

4

restraints; started to move him towards to the door.

5

what I told him to do, but he did not respond in the correct manner.

6

So I told him -- I asked him, you know -- I was like you need to

7

respond when I speak to you.

8

GM2, you know ----

And he didn’t.

Put him in the
I do not recall

So I was like, “hey,

9

Q.

I’m sorry, Mr. Tankersley, GM2 is GM2 Webb?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

All right, please continue.

12

A.

GM2 Webb -- I was like, “GM2 Webb, he’s not responding”.

13

And GM2 Webb was like, “hey, you know, Manning, whenever a guard

14

tells you to do something you need to respond in the correct manner

15

given the rank ----

16
17

Q.

Mr. Tankersley, sorry to interrupt again, but what is the

correct manner?

18

A.

If -- if a guard asks, “hey, I need you to go do this.”

19

Then you would be like, “Aye, aye, lance corporal, or “aye, aye”, you

20

know, staff sergeant, whatever the rank is.

21

is said, you’re supposed to use the rank of the person who you talk

22

to.

23

3895

No matter what -- what

07778

1
2

Q.

And are prisoners required to respond yes versus aye, aye

in certain situations?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And what are ----

5

A.

Yes or no, lance corporal or -- if you ask them a question,

6

you know, they give you a yes or no answer and then it’s your rank.

7

If you give them a command it’s aye, aye and then the rank.

8
9

Q.

And so you were just saying that PFC Manning -- you told

PFC Manning he had to respond in the correct way.

10

correct way?

11

A.

What was the

I don’t -- I can’t tell you because I don’t remember the

12

question that was -- or the question or the command that was given.

13

But the correct way would have been to respond at all because he

14

didn’t respond.

15

Q.

So you do not recall PFC Manning responding at all?

16

A.

No, sir.

17

Q.

What happened next?

18

A.

I got GM2.

I was like, “hey, GM2, you know, Manning didn’t

19

respond.”

And so -- and then GM2 counseled him on, you know, respond

20

whenever you’re spoken to.

21

know, if he -- if he’s ready to go to his rec’ call.

22

“yes”.

And then we -- we -- GM2 asked him, you
And he said,

GM2 -- he was -- you know, he was ready to go.

3896

So we started

07779

1

to move him down to Dorm 1.

2

Q.

And how was PFC Manning’s demeanor during this time?

3

A.

Not -- I don’t know, to be honest -- I don’t know how to

4

say it.

5

Q.

Did he appear to be abnormal in any way?

6

A.

Not -- not really, I guess.

7

sure -- I don’t recall 100 percent.

8

Q.

9

happens next?

10

I mean, I’m not 100 percent

A.

So when you get in the recreation call -- the area, what

We take him inside and I’m starting -- me and Lance

11

Corporal Cline, you know, were taking his restraints off.

12

get his restraints off, he falls to the ground.

13

moved to help him.

14

like machine equipment -- like a weightlifting machine.

15

behind that, covers his face, and starts crying.

And once I

Me and GM2 Webb

He -- he jumps up and runs and gets behind some
He stands

16

Q.

Let’s back up for a second.

17

A.

I don’t know.

18

Q.

Do you remember PFC Manning moving while the restraints

19

Why did PFC Manning fall down?

were being removed?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

And how did PFC Manning appear when he was behind the

22
23

machine?
A.

He was crying.

3897

07780

1
2

Q.

Can you describe that in a little more detail please?

he being loud?

3

A.

I do not recall.

4

Q.

How do you know he was crying?

5

A.

Just the -- the -- making noises and the -- the normal

6

Was

crying sounds and, you know, tears -- he had his hands over his face.

7

Q.

And what happened next?

8

A.

Myself and Corporal Cline and GM2 Webb positioned ourselves

9

in a manner to where, you know, if he tried to go anywhere else we

10

would be able to keep him there.

GM2 Webb called Gunnery Sergeant

11

Fuller to come down.

12

Sergeant asked me and Lance Corporal Cline to leave the room.

When Gunner Sergeant Fuller got down, Gunnery

13

Q.

And did you and Lance Corporal Cline leave the room?

14

A.

Yes, we did.

15

Q.

And what happened next?

16

A.

GM2 Webb and Gunnery Sergeant Fuller and, I’m not 100

17

percent sure, but I think Corporal Baldwin -- or Sergeant Baldwin

18

came in.

19

And they talked for a little while.

But he was -- Gunnery Sergeant Fuller was talking to him.

20

Q.

And where you and Lance Corporal Cline replaced as guards?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

There was -- other people came down.

and did other jobs.

23

3898

We went

07781

1

Q.

Mr. Tankersley, how often would you correct prisoners?

2

A.

Whenever my job required me to do so.

3

Q.

And how -- what tone of voice would you use?

4

A.

A normal tone I guess you would say.

5

Q.

Was it maybe sterner than a normal tone?

6

A.

I -- I don’t know.

7

Q.

When you corrected PFC Manning for failure to respond, do

8

I can’t tell you.

you remember what your tone was?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

Do you remember how many times you corrected him?

11

A.

No, sir.

12

Q.

Now, Mr. Tankersley, I want to ask you now about voluntary

13

statements.

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Do you remember giving voluntary statements to prisoners?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

How often would you do that?

18

A.

I don’t recall.

19

Q.

And were prisoners required to fill out voluntary

20
21

statements for, say, failure to -- or for declining recreation call?
A.

Yes, sir.

They’re given an hour of rec’ call a day; the

22

voluntary statement is to show that they were afforded the hour of

23

rec’ call.

So they would fill out the voluntary statement saying

3899

07782

1

that, you know, they didn’t want rec’ call or, you know, whatever the

2

case was.

3
4

Q.

And what would happen if a prisoner declined to fill out a

voluntary statement?

5

A.

I would -- I would say okay, this is the case just they

6

don’t want to go to rec’ call and they not filling out the statement;

7

either one?

8
9

Q.

Did you ever experience a prisoner declining to fill out a

voluntary statement?

10

A.

11

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Thank you.

12

Not that I recall.

ma’am.

13

MJ:

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Cross-examination?

15
16

I have no further questions,

Yes, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. Coombs]:

17

Q.

Mr. Tankersley, this is Attorney David Coombs.

19

A.

Good.

20

Q.

Not too bad.

21

A.

Yes, sir.

18

How are

you?
How are you doing, sir?
I have a few questions for you.

3900

Okay?

07783

1

Q.

On 18 January 2011, the incident you testified about, that

2

wasn’t the first time you had any interaction with PFC Manning,

3

correct?

4

A.

No, sir.

5

Q.

You would see PFC Manning often?

6

A.

Every day at work.

7
8
9

went into Special Quarters for whatever reason it was.
Q.

And occasionally you would have interactions with PFC

Manning?

10

A.

11

I’d see him.

12

Q.

13

If I worked in Special Quarters or if I

The occasion of how are you doing or whatever -- whenever

Right.

And when you had those brief interactions, he was

always respectful to you?

14

A.

That I recall, yes, sir.

15

Q.

And even after the 18 January incident, PFC Manning was

16

always respectful to you?

17

A.

That I recall, yes, sir.

18

Q.

And you indicated that other than a counselor the Brig

19

guard their job wasn’t to sit around and have conversations with

20

detainees, correct?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So the interactions that you would have would be the brief

23

how are you doing, anything going on, anything I can help you with;

3901

07784

1

that type of stuff?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And other than the 18 January 2011 incident, he was always

4

compliant with you?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

He never tried to escape?

7

A.

No, sir.

8

Q.

He never tried to assault anyone?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

He never tried to harm himself?

11

A.

Not that I recall, sir.

12

Q.

And to you his behavior seemed normal?

13

A.

Yes, sir, as normal as a MAX prisoner would be.

14

Q.

Let’s talk about that from the perspective of a MAX

15

prisoner, PFC Manning’s behavior in your estimation was not odd for

16

somebody that was in MAX custody, correct?

17

A.

He would be a normal MAX custody, yes, sir.

18

Q.

And I think you told me that when you’re stuck in your cell

19

23 hours a day it’s natural to get bored?

20

A.

That -- yes, sir.

21

Q.

And you viewed the behavior that you were hearing about PFC

22
23

Manning as just basically the product of being bored in the cell?
A.

Hearing about?

3902

07785

1

Q.

Yeah, as far as him perhaps, you know, staring into the

2

mirror, dancing in his cell, walking around, playing peek-a-boo with

3

the mirror?

4

A.

I don’t know all -- I never seen any of that.

Like -- what

5

I told you was like you would look in the mirror at yourself or you

6

would stare at the wall.

7

Q.

All right.

8

A.

That was -- you know, that’s all I ever saw.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

And you would consider that behavior as normal if

you were stuck in MAX?

11

A.

Yes, sir, I would.

12

Q.

So from your perspective, PFC Manning never exhibited any

13

type of behavior that caused you to be concerned?

14

A.

Other than the day in question.

15

Q.

Yeah, other than 18 January.

16

So take that out of the

equation.

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And pretty much for you taking out 18 January, PFC Manning

19

was pretty much the same from the time he got there to the time he

20

left in April of 2011?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So you didn’t notice other than, again, the 18 January

23

incident, any noticeable decline in his communication with you?

3903

07786

1

A.

Not that I recall, sir.

2

Q.

Overall PFC Manning was just basically kind of a quiet

3

detainee would you agree?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And overall from your perspective you would agree that he

6
7

was an average detainee?
A.

Average as in -- because it’s kind of hard to put average

8

on such a high-profile case whenever you have all of the higher ups

9

that -- that don’t even work on base come in and walk through the

10
11

facility to check and make sure everything’s okay.
Q.

Yeah.

And we’ll talk about some of the higher ups coming

12

through.

13

average ----

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

---- is that correct?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

What made him not average was the fact that there were a

18

But from the -- your perspective just as a detainee he was

lot of higher ups coming through the Brig?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And people in the Brig knew about that?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So let’s talk about the 18 January 2011, incident for a

23

moment, okay?

3904

07787

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Now obviously that was a little while ago you would agree?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Yeah.

5

And it’s not as fresh as you would like in your mind

because it has been a long time ago?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Okay, on that day to the best of your memory it was you,

8

Lance Corporal Cline and GM2 Webb at the time that took PFC Manning

9

to his rec’ call?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And you escorted PFC Manning out of his cell and -- I know

12

you said you can’t recall the command -- but instructing him to face

13

Alpha Row exit.

Does that sound familiar to you?

14

A.

Like I said, sir, I do not recall.

15

Q.

All right.

So then whatever you told him to do, PFC

16

Manning did not verbalize back to you either, “yes, Lance Corporal”

17

or “aye, aye, Lance Corporal”; is that correct?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And then you said, “aye, aye, Lance Corporal”, in other

20

words to tell him what he needed to say?

21

A.

I do not recall.

22

Q.

Do you recall if you tried to correct him at that point?

23

A.

I do not recall other than, you know, telling him that he

3905

07788

1

needed to respond in the correct manner.

2

anything else.

3
4

Q.

All right.

I do not recall me saying

Do -- you don’t recall then saying it in a

stern manner to get his attention?

5

A.

No, sir.

6

Q.

You don’t recall PFC Manning appearing to be confused when

7

you tried to correct him?

8

A.

No, sir.

9

Q.

You do recall him not responding to you, correct?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And do you recall at that point again telling him that he

12

needed to respond and he needed to respond by either saying “aye,

13

aye, Lance Corporal” or “yes, Lance Corporal”?

14
15
16
17

A.

It was either -- I’m not 100 percent sure, but I would say

I told him that twice.
Q.

All right.

And you recall PFC Manning at that point

responding to you “yes, Lance Corporal”?

18

A.

I do not.

19

Q.

Do you recall you telling PFC Manning, after he responded

20

to you, let’s go, meaning let’s go to continue your rec’ call?

21

A.

I did not say that.

22

Q.

You don’t recall that or you say you didn’t say that?

23

A.

No, no, no.

GM2 Webb was the one who asked Manning if he

3906

07789

1

was ready and if he was ready, you know, to go to his rec’ call.

2

then he was like let’s go.

3

rec’ call.

4
5

Q.

And

And, you know, that’s when we went to

Well do you recall at that point, whether it was you or GM2

Webb that said it, that PFC Manning responded, no, wait?

6

A.

I don’t know.

7

Q.

Do you recall at that point when PFC Manning said, no,

8

wait, that is when GM2 Webb stepped in and explained to PFC Manning,

9

look, you’re a detainee inside the Brig.

You need to reply to anyone

10

giving you a directive with either, “aye, aye” and the rank or “yes”

11

and the rank?

12

A.

I do not recall.

13

Q.

So -- eventually then you get PFC Manning to the indoor

14

rec’ room, is that correct?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And when you took him into the indoor rec’ room he was in

17

full restraints?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And that’s because he is a MAX detainee at that point,

20

right?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And full restraints means that he’s in both hand and leg

23

irons?

3907

07790

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And also that that the Facility is locked down because

3

you’re moving a MAX prisoner?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And the Facility being locked down means no other detainees

6
7

are outside of their cell?
A.

Yes, sir, or out of their cell or wherever they’re at.

8

Say, you can be in lockdown and you have prisoners on the mess deck,

9

but the gates leading to the different places are closed.

10
11

Q.

Okay.

Now because PFC Manning was in full restraint there

was a guard holding onto his belt as he was walking, correct?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And that’s in order to prevent him from falling down?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And when you get to the recreation room, you take PFC

16

Manning to the center of the room in order to remove his restraint.

17

Do you recall that?

18

A.

Somewhere in the center, yes, sir.

19

Q.

And while his restraints were being removed do you recall

20

telling PFC Manning not to move -- to stop moving?

21

A.

Not to move, yes, sir.

22

Q.

Do you recall PFC Manning responding to you “I’m not

23

moving”?

3908

07791

1

A.

I do not recall.

2

Q.

Do you recall at that point telling PFC Manning, again, I

3

thought we covered this, you need to respond with aye, aye, and the

4

name of the person?

5

A.

I do not recall.

6

Q.

Do you recall PFC Manning responding to you while you were

7

taking off the restraints, “aye, Lance Corporal”?

8

A.

I do not recall.

9

Q.

Do you recall Lance Corporal Cline correcting PFC Manning

10

while he was there saying that he didn’t say it correctly?

11

A.

I do not recall.

12

Q.

Do you ever recall saying to PFC Manning at that point are

13

we going to have a problem or something to that effect?

14

A.

No, sir, I do not recall.

15

Q.

When you were speaking to PFC Manning in the rec’ room, do

16

you recall having a stern voice with him?

17

A.

No, sir, I do not recall.

18

Q.

Once the restraints were removed from PFC Manning and he

19

fell backwards down onto his buttocks, you and GM1 [sic] Webb tried

20

to grab him, is that correct?

21

A.

GM2 Webb -- yes, sir.

22

Q.

Okay, I’m sorry.

23

He’s been promoted.

tried to grab him, is that correct?

3909

But then GM2 Webb

07792

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And you tried to catch him but it was too late, right?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And he fell just flat back onto his buttocks, is that

5

He was on the ground when we went to grab him.

right?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And you say at the time that you then tried to grab him, he

8

got back up and went behind a machine?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And he covered his face?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And do you recall him saying I’m sorry, GM2, I’m sorry,

13
14

Lance Corporal?
A.

I -- he said -- there was some audible noises, but I do not

15

recall what was said or if it was something.

16

was just him crying.

17
18

Q.

From what I remember it

So you don’t recall him saying -- using your ranks when he

said I’m sorry?

19

A.

No, sir.

20

Q.

Now Gunny Sergeant Fuller then is called to the rec’ room?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And GM2 Webb instructs you to grab a chair for PFC Manning

23

so that he can sit down?

3910

07793

1

A.

That’s possible.

2

Q.

Once Gunny Sergeant Fuller arrives, he asks PFC Manning if

3

anything triggered his reaction.

4
5

I do not remember.

A.

I do not recall that.

Do you recall that?
From what I recall Gunnery Sergeant

Fuller asked us to leave before he started talking to him.

6

Q.

You don’t recall PFC Manning telling Gunny Sergeant Fuller

7

that he didn’t understand why he was being treated different on that

8

day?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

You don’t recall Gunny Sergeant Fuller saying -- asking PFC

11

Manning and PFC Manning telling him it seemed like all the guards

12

were anxious and that was making him anxious?

13

A.

I do not recall that, sir.

14

Q.

Did Gunny Sergeant Fuller ever come back to you after

15

speaking to PFC Manning and say, look, PFC Manning was saying that

16

the guards were treating him differently and that was making him

17

anxious?

18

A.

I do not recall.

19

Q.

Prior to PFC Manning falling down, do you recall the watch

20

supervisor coming into the recreation room?

21

A.

Sir, who was the watch supervisor?

22

Q.

I don’t have his name.

23

But do you recall the watch

supervisor coming into the recreation room?

3911

07794

1

A.

I do not -- I don’t -- do not remember.

2

Q.

Do you remember another guard coming into the recreation

3

room to ask the DBS, GM2 Webb, a question?

4

A.

I do not recall.

5

Q.

At the time that PFC Manning fell, do you recall if there

6

were more individuals in the rec’ room besides you, Lance Corporal

7

Cline and GM2 Webb?

8

A.

I do not recall, sir.

9

Q.

Now you do recall that PFC Manning continued his rec’ call

10

even though you weren’t there, is that right?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And he completed his rec’ call and then apparently two

13

different guards along with GM2 Webb escorted PFC Manning back to his

14

cell?

15

A.

I do not recall.

16

Q.

But you weren’t one of the escorts that took PFC Manning

17

I was not in that area.

back to his cell?

18

A.

No, sir.

19

Q.

Now you talked about being aware of protests.

20

Were you

aware of a protest on the morning of 17 January 2011?

21

A.

I don’t recall the dates.

22

Q.

Do you recall a protest around that time?

23

A.

I -- there was.

I don’t -- I couldn’t give you an exact --

3912

07795

1

I couldn’t even narrow it down to a week.

2

somewhere in that area.

I don’t know.

It’s

3

Q.

What do you recall about the protests?

4

A.

Not -- not really much.

5

Q.

Now from -- just from your memory, what do you -- do you

6

I didn’t deal with any protests.

recall the protests effecting traffic at the main gate?

7

A.

Not that I -- not that I experienced.

8

Q.

Do you recall any of the guards talking about the protests

9

and how that was impacting the security battalion?

10
11

No, sir.

A.

I don’t recall what was said.

I mean, we talked about it,

but I don’t think there’s -- I don’t know what was said.

12

Q.

Do you recall anyone talking about the fact that they had

13

to hire civilian law enforcement in order to help supplement the

14

force at the main gate and that cost a lot of money?

15

A.

I never heard that.

16

[Pause]

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

18

you.

19

exhibit to the court.

Before I turn you over though I’m going to be presenting an

20

WIT: Yes, sir.

21

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

22

WIT: Yes, sir.

23

Mr. Tankersley, that’s all my questions of

Just stand by.

[The civilian defense counsel had documents marked Appellate Exhibit

3913

07796

1

433.]

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Your Honor, I’m handing you Appellate

3

Exhibit 433; three separate news stories I was able to obtain on the

4

internet just recounting a protest on 17 January 2011 at Marine Corps

5

Base Quantico [handing the exhibit to the military judge].

6

MJ:

7

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Nothing, Your Honor.

8
9

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL
Questions by the military judge:

10
11

Any redirect?

Q.
judge.

Mr. Tankersley, this is Colonel Lind.
Can you hear me?

12

A.

Yes, ma’am.

13

Q.

I have a couple of questions for you.

14

A.

Yes, ma’am.

15

Q.

16

I’m the military

every day.

You testified that inmates are allowed an hour of exercise
Is that --

17

A.

Yes, ma’am.

18

Q.

-- is that all inmates?

19

A.

Yes and -- yes, pretty much it is.

It’s -- the MAX

20

prisoners are separated.

The other inmates would get like an hour of

21

rec’ call, all of them together inside of Dorm 1 or outside of

22

whatever -- weather permitting and if the fence was fixed at that

23

time.

3914

07797

1
2

Q.
years.

You testified that you worked at the Brig for about two
Is that right?

3

A.

A little over.

4

Q.

During that two year period are you aware of any inmate

5
6

Yes, ma’am.

that didn’t get an hour of exercise?
A.

Going back to the statements where they fill out a

7

statement saying that they were afforded the opportunity but they do

8

not want it.

9

Q.

10

Okay.

Let me rephrase that.

Are you aware of any inmate

not being offered an hour of exercise a day?

11

A.

No, ma’am.

12

Q.

Where does that requirement come from?

13

A.

The requirement to have an hour of rec’ call?

14

Q.

Yes.

15

A.

That’s above me, ma’am.

16

That is just what I was told, and

that’s what I went by.

17

Q.

18

protests ----

19

A.

Yes, ma’am.

20

Q.

---- was there any hostility towards PFC Manning that the

21

The protests; you talked about the guards talking about the

guards were -- resulting from the protests from the guards?

22

A.

Not -- not that I recall, ma’am.

23

Q.

You answered a series of questions about what was said or

3915

07798

1

not said by you to PFC Manning with “I don’t recall.”

2

you don’t remember or what was asked didn’t happen?

3
4
5
6
7

A.

I -- either/or.

Does that mean

It’s been year -- it’s been a few years,

ma’am, and I really do not remember.
Q.

If a guard -- I mean -- I’m sorry, if a detainee is asking

a guard a question how would they do that?
A.

What would they say?

They would ask the guard -- they would be like, say the

8

guard’s a sergeant, they would be like, “hey, Sergeant, can I do this

9

or can I do that?”

Or can you -- “can you let the counselor know I

10

need to talk to them?”

But they -- they would get the guard’s

11

attention by saying their rank.

12

Q.

By saying whose rank; the guard’s?

13

A.

Yes, ma’am.

14

MJ:

Any follow-up questions based on that?

15

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: No, Your Honor.

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

17
18
19

Yes, Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. Coombs]:
Q.

Now, Corporal Tank -- excuse me, Mr. Tankersley, you

20

indicated that an hour of rec’ call was required for every detainee,

21

is that correct?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

Do you recall a period of time based upon these special

3916

07799

INSTRUCTIONS FOR PREPARING AND ARRANGING RECORD OF TRIAL
USE OF FORM - Use this form and MCM, 1984,
Appendix 14, will be used by the trial counsel and
the reporter as a guide to the preparation of the
record of trial in general and special court-martial
cases in which a verbatim record is prepared. Air
Force uses this form and departmental
instructions as a guide to the preparation of the
record of trial in general and special court-martial
cases in which a summarized record is authorized.
Army and Navy use DD Form 491 for records of
trial in general and special court-martial cases in
which a summarized record is authorized.
Inapplicable words of the printed text will be
deleted.

8. Matters submitted by the accused pursuant to
Article 60 (MCM, 1984, RCM 1105).

COPIES - See MCM, 1984, RCM 1103(g). The
convening authority may direct the preparation of
additional copies.

12. Advice of staff judge advocate or legal officer,
when prepared pursuant to Article 34 or otherwise.

ARRANGEMENT - When forwarded to the
appropriate Judge Advocate General or for judge
advocate review pursuant to Article 64(a), the
record will be arranged and bound with allied
papers in the sequence indicated below. Trial
counsel is responsible for arranging the record as
indicated, except that items 6, 7, and 15e will be
inserted by the convening or reviewing authority,
as appropriate, and items 10 and 14 will be
inserted by either trial counsel or the convening or
reviewing authority, whichever has custody of
them.

13. Requests by counsel and action of the
convening authority taken thereon (e.g., requests
concerning delay, witnesses and depositions).

1. Front cover and inside front cover (chronology
sheet) of DD Form 490.
2. Judge advocate's review pursuant to Article
64(a), if any.
3. Request of accused for appellate defense
counsel, or waiver/withdrawal of appellate rights,
if applicable.
4. Briefs of counsel submitted after trial, if any
(Article 38(c)).
5. DD Form 494, "Court-Martial Data Sheet."

9. DD Form 458, "Charge Sheet" (unless included
at the point of arraignment in the record).
10. Congressional inquiries and replies, if any.
11. DD Form 457, "Investigating Officer's Report,"
pursuant to Article 32, if such investigation was
conducted, followed by any other papers which
accompanied the charges when referred for trial,
unless included in the record of trial proper.

14. Records of former trials.
15. Record of trial in the following order:
a. Errata sheet, if any.
b. Index sheet with reverse side containing
receipt of accused or defense counsel for copy of
record or certificate in lieu of receipt.
c. Record of proceedings in court, including
Article 39(a) sessions, if any.
d. Authentication sheet, followed by certificate
of correction, if any.
e. Action of convening authority and, if appropriate, action of officer exercising general courtmartial jurisdiction.
f. Exhibits admitted in evidence.

6. Court-martial orders promulgating the result of
trial as to each accused, in 10 copies when the
record is verbatim and in 4 copies when it is
summarized.

g. Exhibits not received in evidence. The page
of the record of trial where each exhibit was
offered and rejected will be noted on the front of
each exhibit.

7. When required, signed recommendation of
staff judge advocate or legal officer, in duplicate,
together with all clemency papers, including
clemency recommendations by court members.

h. Appellate exhibits, such as proposed instructions, written offers of proof or preliminary
evidence (real or documentary), and briefs of
counsel submitted at trial.

DD FORM 490, MAY 2000

Inside of Back Cover

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