Title: Volume FOIA 027

Release Date: 2014-03-20

Text: 08132

Volume 27 of 111
SJAR ROT
FOIA Version

VERBAT IM 1

RECORD OF TRIAL2

(and accompanying papers)

of
(Name: Last, First, Middie initiai) (Sociai Security Number) (Rank)
Headquarters and
Headquarters Company,
United States Army Garrison U-S- Army FCDIJC Ml/er: VA 22211
(Unit/Command Name) (Branch of Service) (Station or Snip)
By
GENERAL COURT-MARTIAL
Convened by Commander

(Titie of Con vening Authority)

UNITED STATES ARMY MILITARY DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
(Unit/Command of Con vening Authority)

Tried at

Fort. Meade, MD on see below

(Piace or Piaces of Triai) (Date or Dates of Triai-9

Date or Dates of Trial:

23 February 2012, 15-16 March 2012, 24-26 April 2012, 6-8 June 2012, 25 June 2012,

16-19 July 2012, 28-30 August 2012, 2 October 2012, 12 October 2012, 17-18 October 2012,
7-8 November 2012, 27 November - 2 December 2012, 5-7 December 2012, 10-11 December 2012,
8-9 January 2013, 16 January 2013, 26 February - 1 March 2013, 8 March 2013,

10 April 2013, 7-8 May 2013, 21 May 2013, 3-5 June 2013, 10-12 June 2013, 17-18 June 2013,
25-28 June 2013, 1-2 July 2013, 8-10 July 2013, 15 July 2013, 18-19 July 2013,

25-26 July 2013, 28 July - 2 August 2013, 5-9 August 2013, 12-14 August 2013,

16 August 2013, and 19-21 August 2013.

1 insert ?verbatirri or ?surrimari'zeo? as appropriate. This form be used by the Army and Navy for verbatim records of triai

2 See inside back co ver for instructions as to preparation and arrangement.

DD FORM 490, MAY 2000 PREWOUS OBSOLETE Front Cover

08133

1

billet was, what my responsibilities were as a programs chief -- as

2

his counselor.

3

as the programs chief while I was there.

4

as his counselor, my role as the programs chief, what he could expect

5

from me, what I expected from him.

6

the facility.

7

initial -- not the initial classification but the background summary.

I explained to him I would be his counselor as well
I explained to him my role

We talked about basic rules of

Then we sat down -- we went through the 27-10 -- the

8

Q.

The in-processing paperwork?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

Went through that -- that’s what he filled out

10

himself.

I reviewed that prior to actually sitting down and talking

11

with him.

12

name and whatnot.

13

discuss with him from that paperwork -- stuff that he wrote down --

14

clarification or just talking about things.

Some of the stuff we breezed through pretty quickly -- his
I looked for key points I actually wanted to

Example; the ----

15

Q.

What were some of those key points?

16

A.

The biggest one, sir, was -- where it says have you

17

considered suicide or are you suicidal -- I can’t remember exactly

18

how the question’s worded -- but the back there, sir, he checked yes.

19

And then there’s a remarks section and he wrote “always planning,

20

never acting.”

21

couple things about having a -- being diagnosed with ADD, I think an

22

anxiety disorder -- I can’t remember exactly what was written on that

23

block, but something in that block as well, sir.

That was a big one for me.

4247

I think he also wrote a

08134

1
2

Q.

Did you ask him anything about the -- you may have seen in

the transfer documents from Kuwait?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

What did you ask him?

5

A.

In the documents -- one of the incidents reports, it talked

6

about an incident that happened out in the recreation yard where he

7

had some kind of a panic attack or -- or when and started running

8

around in circles.

9

Q.

The recreation yard in Kuwait?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

And -- I guess -- at one point he -- he laid

11

down on the ground and became nonresponsive to the point where --

12

from the word picture I got they had to actually pick him up and

13

bring him back to his cell or however he was housed there.

14

other one was an incident report where they actually found a noose

15

made out of a bed sheet inside his cell.

And the

16

Q.

And did you ask PFC Manning about noose?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And what did he say?

19

A.

I asked him -- I’m like, okay, so what’s going on with this

20

noose that’s made out of the bed sheet inside his cell?

When I asked

21

him that he a -- he kind of looked at me like he didn’t understand

22

what I was talking about.

23

bed sheet.

And he said I didn’t make a noose out of a

I made it out of sandbag ties.

4248

And ----

08135

1

Q.

What conclusion did you draw from that?

2

A.

Well, at that point -- I didn’t say this but what was

3

running through my mind was -- nobody -- nobody confuses a bed sheet

4

and sandbag ties -- they’re pretty -- two distinctly different items.

5

So I thought, well, okay, he must have made two.

6
7

Q.

And did you ask him about his statement about always

planning and never acting on suicide?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And what did he say?

10

A.

I asked him -- I’m like, what do you mean always planning,

11

never acting -- what’s that mean?

12

means what it says, you know, like -- he’s always just make plans but

13

has never actually attempted -- never acted -- never attempted

14

suicide; just made plans.

15
16

Q.

And he essentially said that it

Did he mention anything about being coerced to make that

statement on the paperwork?

17

A.

No, sir.

18

Q.

He deny making the statement?

19

A.

I didn’t ask him if -- I didn’t ask him if he was forced to

20

make the statement or -- I mean he acknowledge that he wrote the

21

statement.

22
23

Q.

Let’s talk a little bit about your relationship as a

counselor in general with PFC Manning.

4249

What were you expected to do?

08136

1

A.

I had to meet -- by order I have to meet with him once a

2

week -- at a minimum once a week and address his concerns that were

3

there.

4

the confinement process, help him out with whatever he needs -- needs

5

and concerns he has as long as I actually can help him with those

6

needs and concerns, serve as a liaison between him and his legal team

7

-- outside agencies -- his legal team, his command -- that’s usually

8

the main stays; the command and legal teams.

9

between -- if he needs to speak with them, you know, I get him on the

As a counselor my role ultimately is -- assist him through

Serve as liaison

10

phone with them or if something’s needed -- needed from the command.

11

Example -- a command visit.

12

contact the command, hey, let them know their responsibility.

13

as an advocate for him really because -- because of the position

14

they’re in, you know, in confinement, they can’t go address needs

15

that you and I can.

16

So at that point I would help them address those needs as best as I

17

could within -- within reason what I can do.

If the command visit doesn’t show up, I
Serve

I mean -- just ‘cause they’re in confinement.

18

Q.

So as his advocate what is your primary goal?

19

A.

To address the needs that it’s met, sir -- to address his

20

needs as best I can.

21

Q.

So you’re concerned with keeping him safe?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

How would you do that?

4250

08137

1

A.

Well, first, if he felt threatened from the prisoner

2

population then I could talk to him about protective custody and tell

3

- explain that to him.

4

protective custody.

5

from themselves, you know, then we would -- you know, we would

6

protect them from themselves, you know, if -- depending on how -- how

7

well or how much of a threat we consider them to be to themselves.

8

And if it was a significant threat we’d place them on suicide risk.

9

If it was a heightened risk, then prevention of injury, sir.

10
11

Q.

Ask them if they, you know, want to go into

If they’re harm from -- if they’re in danger

We can talk a little about that in a few minutes.

But were

you his counselor for your -- for his entire time at Quantico?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And how well did you get to know PFC Manning?

14

A.

Fairly -- fairly well, sir.

I mean I’ve gotten to know

15

other prisoners better.

16

comfortable with him.

17

to me I kind of knew exactly what kind of week it was going to be.

18

Sometimes ----

I mean I’d say fairly well where I was
I -- I could -- I -- depending on how he spoke

19

Q.

What do you mean by that?

20

A.

At first, sir -- outside of the initial interview -- during

21

the initial interview he spoke to me fairly well.

22

questions fairly -- fairly directly.

23

lot.

He answered all my

He didn’t elaborate on a whole

After that when I -- I did a walk through special quarters or

4251

08138

1

bring him down to my office, any questions I asked him, he was very

2

short, direct answers; yes, Gunnery Sergeant.

3

You know, quick -- short to the point answering my questions -- yes

4

and no as much as possible.

5

seemed like just hurry up and answer your question -- ask a question

6

so I can answer and be done with it and move on.

7
8

Q.

No, Gunnery Sergeant.

To the point where I knew that -- it

While you were PFC Manning’s counselor did you find the

amount of communication change?

9

A.

Yes, sir, over time.

10

Q.

How so?

11

A.

Probably maybe three or four months after receiving him --

12

probably November timeframe -- being November timeframe, I believe,

13

he started talking to me more -- actually started engaging in actual

14

conversation outside of just quick direct answers.

15

- pretty regular -- it developed -- once he started talking to me,

16

week to week he -- he’d speak to me a little bit more each week --

17

not every time I talked to him -- sometimes with quick answers, but

18

it was improving.

19

stopped talking to me again.

Started talking -

After about seven or eight weeks of that then he
It was pretty abrupt.

20

Q.

Was that a pattern that continued?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

After -- once he stopped speaking to me, again,

22

the second time -- that -- that went on for three or four weeks if I

23

remember right, sir.

Then he started speaking to me again, but that

4252

08139

1

was also very -- very brief; maybe two weeks.

2

talking to me again I think that was it, sir.

3
4

Q.

Then once he stopped

And did you ask him -- ask him about the level of

communication?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean, I explained to him, you know, trying to

6

communication -- just trying to talk -- we need to talk.

7

didn’t ask him, hey, why aren’t you talking to me anymore?

8

think I’ve ever asked him like that, sir.

You know, I
I don’t

9

Q.

But did you explain the importance of communication?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And why was communication with his counselor important?

12

A.

Sir, if I -- if I can’t communicate with somebody I can’t -

13

- especially somebody that’s on a suicide watch or a prevention of

14

injury status.

15

their -- their mental state like how they’re doing, sir.

If they’re not talking to me I can’t get a grasp of

16

Q.

Does it make it harder to see improvement?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

What about a shy detainee?

19

A.

I’m sorry, sir?

20

Q.

What about a shy detainee who’s not real open and not going

21

to talk a lot?

22
23

A.
shy.

You can usually gauge if they’re just not -- if they’re

I’ve never had a detainee that was so shy that he couldn’t talk

4253

08140

1

for weeks and weeks especially about anything.

2

usually it’s not hard to find at least on subject that somebody will

3

talk about.

4

tons of different things trying to start discussions with him, you

5

know, usually to no avail.

6

talked to about.

7
8
9

Q.

I mean -- I mean,

It’s pretty -- not hard to do that.

I mean I went over

There was a couple of things that we

What kind of things would you ask him about as far as

discussion?
A.

Sir, I tried to talk to him about military, sports -- he

10

lived in the UK.

I talked to him about what it was like to live in

11

the UK.

12

talked to me about computers a little bit.

13

discussion because I’m not really not knowledgeable about computers

14

myself -- but it was a hard discussion.

15

Bigfoot one time.

16

anything.

17

get him to speak about.

One time we talked about penny stocks, computers -- he
That was kind of a hard

Sir, I talked to him about

Asked him if he believed in Bigfoot?

I mean

We got to the point where I was grasping at anything I can

18

Q.

Did you ask him about fishing?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

In the UK -- I asked him if he went fishing.

He

20

said he didn’t -- like immediately -- he was like oh, no.

Never went

21

fishing.

22

video games he played.

23

couldn’t understand his answer; he said he never played video games,

Sports -- video games, you know, I asked him what kind of
So that one I remember -- this really -- I

4254

08141

1

but he played with video games.

2

he meant by that until he said he actually went and looked at the

3

program that made the video game -- what the video game is and did

4

stuff with that.

5

started talking I -- I couldn’t have an intelligent conversation

6

because I didn’t know.

7
8

Q.

And I really didn’t understand what

That’s one of those conversations where once he

Would you say you exhausted every possibility you

considered?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

What sports did you talk about with PFC Manning?

11

A.

Tried to talk about any sports.

12

Eventually he did -- he

told me he liked to watch college basketball.

13

Q.

How much would you talk about college basketball with him?

14

A.

Once I -- once I found out he liked college basketball --

15

and actually he is a Syracuse Orangeman fan just because -- I think

16

because he was stationed up at Fort Drum, which -- I thought that was

17

perfect because I’m an Orangeman fan myself.

18

about that.

19

when he started talking about college basketball it was really early

20

in the college season, and he said he didn’t follow as much as he --

21

I’m not sure -- you know, purposely or not, but he didn’t talk about

22

it as much after he realized that it was something, hey, we can talk

23

about this.

So I thought we’d talk

And he talked about it quite often.

The problem was

He told me he didn’t really follow it during the regular

4255

08142

1
2

season until the tournament.
Q.

Okay.

And based on all of your interaction with PFC

3

Manning, would you change recommendations that you would make with

4

regard --

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

-- to his custody and classification?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And what recom -- what changes did you recommend?

9

A.

Once -- once he started talking to me -- not the first time

10

but maybe a week or two later -- at that point -- up until then his

11

recreation call time -- it was designated for 20 minutes outside.

12

went to the CO and said, hey, sir, you know, what do you think about

13

making it an hour long, which we did.

I

14

Q.

Why did you recommend an hour at that point?

15

A.

Because at that point I wasn’t -- I wasn’t ready to make a

16

recommendation of changing his custody and classification, however, I

17

-- I wanted to see some kind of loosening -- see how he reacts to

18

loosening his -- you know, his situation.

19

correspondence time, which is where -- their time designated to write

20

letters, you know, read and write letters.

21

hour, and then I recommended, hey, why don’t we move it to two hours

22

even though at that point he wasn’t writing letters.

23

maybe one or two out.

So the recreation call --

That was originally one

I think he sent

But -- and he didn’t really receive a lot of

4256

08143

1

mail either, but I still wanted -- let’s open it up.

2

writing letters because he’s only got an hour time, and he doesn’t

3

feel like it’s worth the time.

4

happens.

5
6

Q.

Let’s open up.

Maybe he’s not

Let’s see what

Would you call it an intermediate step on the way to

potentially removing PFC Manning from POI?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Let’s talk a little bit about staff reports now, Master

9

Sergeant.

10

behavior?

Just baby steps along the way.

Did you receive staff reports about PFC Manning’s

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And what kind of things would you hear about?

13

A.

He -- the very -- the very first one that I remember

14

specifically was -- I was outside and I heard a group of guys --

15

three or four guards talking.

16

he -- they said he did something.

17

said.

And I don’t remember what they said -I don’t remember what it was they

18

Q.

But it caught your attention?

19

A.

But it caught my attention.

And I asked them, like hey,

20

what do you mean he does -- whatever they said?

And they -- well,

21

Gunnery Sergeant, he does weird stuff like that all the time.

22

like, what do you mean?

23

that really stuck with me -- they said he was licking his bars at

I was

So they started telling me -- the one thing

4257

08144

1

nighttime -- the bars to the -- at the front of his cell at

2

nighttime.

3

one specific one that I remembered at the time.

4

-- I asked them -- I go -- you know, why don’t know about this?

5

come this is the first I’ve heard of these things?

6

it’s probably October, I think.

7

few weeks -- I’m like why don’t I know about this?

And they listed off a few different things.

That was the

And -- I definitely
How

So at this point

I mean, he’s been there for quite a
And ----

8

Q.

So what did you do in response?

9

A.

I went straight to the CO and said, hey, sir, I’ve got a

10

little -- got a little issue here.

You know, and I told them what

11

the guards had told me.

12

thing that came out of that conversation -- I don’t remember if it

13

was immediate or maybe a week later -- and he wasn’t on suicide watch

14

at this time, but Chief Warrant Officer Averhart directed, hey,

15

whenever he does something -- any kind of odd behavior like that --

16

anything that’s just not normal that you see of a normal prisoner, he

17

wanted it annotated in a suicide watch logbook.

18

wasn’t on suicide watch, that was just the logbook at that time that

19

had existed where we wrote these things down because those things

20

were something that we’d usually see out of somebody that’s on

21

suicide watch.

22

smaller logbook was just generated just for Manning just to annotate

23

these things.

And at that point the ultimate -- the main

Even though he

That lasted maybe a week or two before another

That way they didn’t have to write an incident report

4258

08145

1

every time there was because -- I mean, they may be generating a

2

bunch of incident reports every day, so it was just put in a logbook

3

-- it was memorialized in log book.

4

Q.

Were those events documented somewhere else?

5

A.

When I did the weekly progress report on Manning, I would

6

take that logbook and annotate them in there, sir.

7

Q.

Do you mean in CORMIS?

8

A.

In CORMIS -- the weekly progress report I did and the

9

CORMIS notes -- they covered the same thing, sir.

So the weekly

10

progress report that got sent up to the chain of command to -- I’m

11

not sure exactly it went -- and then also in CORMIS -- my counseling

12

notes.

13

Q.

Did staff tell you about PFC Manning flexing his muscles?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And did you talk to PFC Manning about the behavior that was

16
17

reported to you?
A.

Not every time they told me a specific incident -- hey,

18

Manning was flexing his muscles.

19

Manning, why are you flexing your muscles.

20

different behavior.

21

he’d say, oh, I’m just.

22
23

Q.

I never went down and said, hey,
But he just -- trend of

I’d ask him, hey, what’s going with this?

Did PFC Manning ever tell you he was doing resistance

training?

4259

And

08146

1

A.

I don’t remember him specifically saying I was doing

2

resistance training.

3

that.

4
5

Q.

He may have.

But I don’t remember him saying

And his prior reports about PFC Manning, would you talk to

Captain Hocter?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

How often?

8

A.

Let me rephrase that, sir.

9
10

I tried to talk to him.

talk to him a couple of times but that -- that was rare, sir.

I did
I

mean, that was difficult.

11

Q.

And how often would you talk to Colonel Malone?

12

A.

Once -- once Colonel Malone came on deck, I talked to him

13

more.

I met -- when he first got there it was -- I think maybe just

14

to understand that, hey, we want to talk to him when he got to the

15

facility and before he left the facility.

16

that -- it was -- it was the third time he came there, sir -- as long

17

as I was on deck.

But once he understood

18

Q.

And how often would you talk to Lieutenant Colonel Russell?

19

A.

Lieutenant Colonel Russell -- we talked to -- the first

20

time I met him was actually when Colonel Malone brought him to the

21

brig -- introduced him before he was actually doing his duties.

22

that’s the first time I talked to him.

23

talked to him probably every time he was there.

4260

And

And from there -- it was -- I
If he was in the

08147

1

building and I was in the building that was the time we talked.

2

Q.

And how are complaints by detainees given to you handled?

3

A.

If they -- their previous processes is a DD 510, it’s a

4

chit.

If they -- if they have a concern they put it down on the

5

chit.

They can tell me verbally as I walk through special quarters

6

and -- you know, I’m walking down -- hey, how you doing -- this is

7

with everybody.

8

something real minor and I can squash it right then and there, I

9

would.

If they have a concern they’d talk to me.

If it’s

If it’s something that’s going to -- takes a little bit of

10

leg work on or whatever or I just can’t squash it right then and

11

there, I’ll tell them to put it on a 510 and send it to me.

12

Q.

And what was your process for dealing with those?

13

A.

Once I received the 510 -- once I got them I put them in my

14

inbox on my desk and -- you know, my inbox was -- wasn’t designed for

15

510s, it was -- it was things I was doing that day.

16

in my box, and then once I got to them I -- I addressed the chit.

17

Q.

Was that your action box for the day?

18

A.

I’m sorry, sir.

19

Q.

Was that your action box for the day?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Did you deal with them that day?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

And I’d put them

Unless I got pulled out for something, but that

was -- yes, sir.

4261

08148

1

Q.

Have you ever lost a chit?

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

Did PFC Manning give you a chit in December 2010?

4

A.

Like hand me a chit, sir?

5

Q.

Yes.

6

A.

No, sir, I don’t remember him ever handing me a chit.

7

Q.

Did you discuss with PFC Manning what could be done to get

8

off of prevention of injury?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And what did you tell him?

11

A.

I told him ultimately the status you’re on is because we

12

feel that, you know, there’s a heightened risk that you may harm

13

yourself.

14

wasn’t an action -- I remember he asked me one time, what do I have

15

to do to get off POI status?

And the main thing -- the main thing he needed to do -- it

I’m like there’s -- you don’t ----

16

Q.

Do you remember when that was?

17

A.

December or January timeframe, sir.

I -- he probably

18

actually asked me twice.

I remember -- I remember one conversation

19

specifically when he’s -- what do I have to do to come off of

20

prevention of injury?

21

something.

22

POI because POI is not -- it’s not a disciplinary status.

23

need to do is convince me that you are not a threat to yourself.

And I told him like you -- you don’t do

You don’t -- you don’t go do a good deed and come off of

4262

What you

08149

1

Make me believe that if I recommend you to come off -- if I recommend

2

you to come off POI I have to be able to trust that.

3

able to justify it to myself.

4

not a threat to yourself.

5

that you’re not a risk.

6

there’s not an act that does that.

I have to be

You have to convince me that you’re

Talk to me.

Communicate.

You’ve got to convince me.

Just show me
And it’s not --

7

Q.

Would you describe that as a sense of trust?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And what did PFC Manning say in response to this?

10

A.

I don’t really remember his response, sir.

11

Q.

Did he ask for clarification?

12

A.

If he did, sir, I don’t remember.

13

Q.

How talkative was PFC Manning compared to other detainees?

14

A.

Next to none, sir.

I mean other detainees -- I can only

15

remember one other prisoner that I had trouble communicating with --

16

probably more trouble communicating with him, but nowheres near as

17

long sustained duration, sir.

18
19

Q.

And why did you have trouble communicating with that other

pretrial prisoner?

20

A.

Sir, that guy was confined on death row before I was in the

21

Marine Corps.

22

Q.

Post-trial.

23

A.

He -- he was on death row for -- when I met him probably 10

4263

08150

1

plus years.

So he was probably 10 or 12 years older than me.

2

you know, at that point -- he’s been -- he was in jail probably 15

3

years at the time -- probably death row about 10 at that point.

4

you know, prisoners -- definitely -- he’s not going to trust me right

5

away.

6

to him trust is a big -- big deal.

7

actually -- grew up similarly.

8

where he was coming from.

9

death row, sir, you’re not going to trust anybody until you show them

He don’t know me from a can of paint.

10

that they can trust you.

11

trust me, too.

And,

And,

So he’s not going to --

He was from Chicago -- him and I

You know, so I -- I knew exactly

And on top of that, spending 10 years on

And I remember exactly how I got him to

But ----

12

Q.

How did you get him to trust you?

13

A.

When I talked to him I had the guards take the restraints

Q.

And how long did it take for you to establish a sense of

14
15
16
17
18
19

off.

trust with him?
A.

Four or five weeks, sir.

During that four or five weeks he

wouldn’t talk to me at all.
Q.

Do you ever tell PFC Manning that Captain Hocter was

20

keeping him on POI after Captain Hocter recommended taking PFC

21

Manning off POI?

22

A.

I’m sorry, sir.

23

Q.

Did you ever tell PFC Manning that Captain Hocter was

4264

08151

1

recommending that PFC Manning be kept on prevention of injury even

2

though Captain Hocter was not recommending -- making that

3

recommendation?

4

A.

No, sir.

5

Q.

PFC Manning’s confinement attracted some bit of public

6

attention.

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Did the brig receive phone calls randomly?

9

A.

It did, sir.

10

Q.

Did the brig receive packages randomly?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And would you have to draft up statements in response to

13

these events?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Do you remember on 15 December 2010, drafting an email

16

about rejecting a package because it was sent with no prior request

17

or knowledge, and there’s no preapproval by the Brig OIC?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Do you remember adding in the phase “And we felt like being

20

dicks”?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And why did you write that?

23

A.

I sent that a -- the Brig Supervisor, Master Sergeant

4265

08152

1

Papakie and -- honestly, sir, I was just joking around with him.

2

Screwing with him -- get a rise out of him.

3

Q.

Are you normally joking around when you do your job?

4

A.

Yes, sir, I joke with him -- I have a good working

5

relationship with him.

6

Q.

But do you consider yourself to be a professional?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Let’s talk a little bit about C&A boards.

9
10
11

What is the

purpose of suicide risk?
A.

To make sure that that person that’s on suicide risk

doesn’t harm himself, sir.

12

Q.

And when is suicide risk appropriate from your perspective?

13

A.

If they have a -- well, first, if they make an attempt --

14

if they make a gesture -- a serious gesture, serious statement, they

15

make any statement they’re saying that, hey, I’m going to hurt myself

16

-- gestures, ideations, attempts.

17

Q.

And what’s the purpose of prevention of injury?

18

A.

To keep that person from hurting themself -- to prevent

19

them from injuring themself, sir, if you will.

It’s a -- it’s kind

20

of a less -- lesser form of suicide risk, sir.

Not as strict.

21

Q.

And when is POI appropriate when suicide risk is not?

22

A.

If somebody may have made a statement or a gesture, but not

23

something as serious as something that that would get somebody put on

4266

08153

1

suicide watch, but at the same time we need a higher sense of

2

supervision over him -- he’s more of a risk than that of the average

3

general population prisoners, sir.

4

Q.

Is it meant to be punitive; prevention of injury?

5

A.

No, sir.

6

Q.

Is it used for disciplinary purposes?

7

A.

No, sir.

8

Q.

Did you use it for disciplinary purposes?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

Can disciplinary events of misbehavior be a factor in

11
12

determining prevention of injury?
A.

It could be, sir.

If they’re -- if I have a general

13

population prisoner and he has a disciplinary issue, that’s not going

14

to land him on prevention of injury status unless that infraction

15

involves them hurting themselves.

16

they do have disciplinary infractions, that may -- if -- if this

17

person’s conduct and behavior is a certain way for so long but then -

18

- and he starts having the -- and I’m not going to say just one

19

disciplinary issue, but it becomes a trend and I’m seeing a change in

20

his behavior.

21

Q.

22
23

But if I have somebody on POI and

And that’s a cause for concern.

Why would prevention of injury be appropriate for a

detainee who’s polite and courteous?
A.

Because being polite and courteous -- people who may

4267

08154

1

potentially hurt themselves are polite and courteous, sir, that

2

doesn’t -- because I’m polite and courteous doesn’t mean I’m not --

3

I’m not going to hurt myself.

4

Q.

And is that why communication is important?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

I need to be able to gauge someone’s mental

6

state, sir -- their personality -- where -- where are they at in

7

their head.

8
9

Q.

Would every disciplinary infraction at the brig be

documented?

10

A.

No, sir.

11

Q.

Why not?

12

A.

If it’s something minor, sir, we just correct it with an on

13

the spot verbal counseling, sir.

14

paperwork if we wrote down every violation of the rules and reg’s.

15

Something’s just are a simple counseling.

16
17

Q.

We’d be generating tons of

Let’s talk about Special Quarters 2 now.

Do you remember

Special Quarters 2?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

What were Special -- what were Special Quarters 2?

20

A.

Special Quarters 2 had -- we rarely had anybody housed in

21

there.

That was -- if we had somebody who was on disciplinary

22

segregation -- not even a first time disciplinary segregation, but

23

somebody who was a repeated trouble around the population and we need

4268

08155

1

to segregate this guy from the rest of the population because his

2

conduct -- or his misconduct was now affecting the other prisoners

3

that were living there, we had to separate him.

4

him in Special Quarters 2.

And then we’d put

5

Q.

Are you talking about violent -- violent behavior?

6

A.

Violent or just repeated infractions of the same rules to

7

where it became a disturbance.

8

Q.

But it was for disciplinary purposes?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And what kind of acts would land someone in Special

11

Quarters 2?

12

A.

An assault would.

But any kind of disciplinary ----

13

Q.

And assault while in confinement, outside of confinement?

14

A.

While in confinement, sir.

If they’re there -- if they’re

15

confined for a violation of Article 128, whether pre or post-trial,

16

that’s not going to get them put inside Special Quarters 2, you know,

17

because that’s -- that’s a charge.

18

acted -- you know, what they did to get themselves confined.

19

about how they act in confinement.

I don’t really care how somebody

20

Q.

And was PFC Manning ever in Special Quarters 2?

21

A.

No, sir.

22

Q.

Let’s talk about what it actually looks like.

23

describe it for me?

4269

I care

Can you

08156

1
2

A.

If I walked into Special Quarters 2 to the immediate right

was just a solid bulkhead.

On my left ----

3

Q.

Can you please tell the court what a bulkhead is?

4

A.

A wall, sir.

5

Q.

Thank you.

6

A.

A solid wall.

And then on the left, that’s where the cells

7

were.

8

If I wanted to walk into a cell there was a steel gate with a small

9

window.

10

Q.

About how -- about how large?

11

A.

Maybe 10 inches -- 10 to 12 inches by 10 to 12 inches, sir.

12

Q.

I want to talk a little bit about this.

I remember there was six cells.

13

front of a Special Quarters 2 cell.

14

have to pass through?

All the cells were identical.

So I’m standing in

To walk into the cell what do I

15

A.

You have to go through that steel hatch with the window.

16

Q.

Is it solid?

17

A.

Yes, sir, besides --

18

Q.

Except for the --

19

A.

-- besides -- besides my window.

20

Q.

-- except for the small window?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So it’s almost like a fourth wall with a small window?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

4270

08157

1

Q.

All right, then I pass through that then what’s next?

2

A.

Then you’re in a pretty small area and then you have to go

3

through a gate.

Once you go through that ----

4

Q.

You mean -- you mean like bars?

5

A.

Yes, sir, a barred -- a barred hatch door.

Once you go

6

through that barred door then you’re in the cell.

7

through -- essentially you had to go through two doors, sir.

8
9

Q.

So you had to go

Would you say Special Quarters 2 then was like the quarters

in Special Quarter 1 except with a solid door in front of it with a

10

small window?

11

A.

The barred cell door was a different style, but -- yes,

Q.

And was there a lot of light in Special -- within the cell

12
13
14

sir.

in Special Quarters 2?

15

A.

Just regular luminescent light, sir.

16

Q.

Natural light?

17

A.

Natural light, sir?

18

No, sir.

But, yes, sir.

If I’m in a cell inside

Special Quarter 2 I’m not getting any natural light.

19

Q.

And there were windows in Special Quarters 1?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And how often were prisoners put in Special Quarters 2

22
23

during your time at Quantico?
A.

We had three prisoners in there, but they were in there

4271

08158

1

because they got transferred to us from the Federal Bureau of

2

Prisons.

3

prisoner that was on death row.

4

Prisons -- they’ve been discharged from the military and -- they were

5

civilians.

6

because we had to separate them from the actual confined service

7

members.

8

were put in Special Quarters 2 for disciplinary reasons.

9
10

Q.

And they were there to testify at the rehearing for the
Because they were Federal Bureau of

So we put them in there, not as a disciplinary measure --

Aside from that, I can only think of two prisoners that

So if a prisoner was put in Special Quarters 2 you would

have been more isolated?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Let’s go back to classification and assignment boards.

13

What’s the purpose of a C&A board?

14

A.

To review or initially review a status that the DBS changed

15

somebody’s status or a new confinement.

16

was in a status, we had to review those statuses every so often.

17

Depending on what the status is depending on the -- how long -- how

18

often we did it.

And then also if somebody

19

Q.

And how does that C&A board process protect a detainee?

20

A.

It keeps that prisoner from being classified incorrectly,

Q.

Are those determinations and recommendations -- are those

21
22
23

sir.

recommendations made by a neutral party?

4272

08159

1
2

A.

Yes, sir.

There’s three people on the board, and it goes

to the CO, sir.

3

Q.

And who are the three people that sit on a C&A board?

4

A.

It varies, sir.

While I was the programs chief, I was on -

5

- if I was on deck -- if I was there that day, I was on it.

6

other ----

Then the

7

Q.

And why would you be on it?

8

A.

I was the programs chief, sir.

9

Q.

Then the other two -- we almost always tried to make them

10

two other staff NCOs.

It didn’t always happen.

I’d say the majority

11

of the time it was two other staff NCOs.

12

wasn’t anybody specific.

13

admin’ chief, another counselor -- Staff Sergeant Jordan, the Army

14

Liaison, was on there quite a bit -- just another staff NCO that

15

worked for the brig.

16

I didn’t have a third staff NCO.

And that could be -- it

It may have been the operations chief, the

I would use somebody that wasn’t a staff NCO if

17

Q.

And why would you have staff NCO on the C&A board?

18

A.

Just rank and experience, sir.

19

PFC on there.

20

Q.

And who appointed members of the C&A board?

21

A.

The Commanding Officer.

I mean I wouldn’t have a

I mean it was -- there was an

22

appointment for members of the C&A board, not by person if I remember

23

correctly, but by billet in that -- and that appointment letter

4273

08160

1

covered ----

2

Q.

3

And what kind of factors would members of a C&A board

consider?

4

A.

A person’s history -- all ----

5

Q.

When you say a person’s history what do you mean?

6

A.

History of anything, sir.

All the way from his family

7

history, his service history, his -- any -- criminal history -- any

8

kind of history to him prior to receiving confinement -- his conduct

9

while he’s in confinement, his behavior while he was in confinement,

10

interaction with the staff, other -- other -- the staff’s feelings on

11

their interaction with him if they thought -- the psych’ -- if it was

12

somebody that -- psych’ review that they need POIs or SRs just like

13

talk to him.

14

Q.

Would you consider a hard card?

15

A.

Yes, sir, just because the hard card listed any kind of

16

infractions he would have had.

It had other things, but more so

17

that’s where he would write a -- it was basically a log of -- if

18

somebody got a DR or an observation report it would get logged down

19

there that way I didn’t have to go look through somebody’s book.

20

was ----

21

Q.

By “DR” you mean “disciplinary report”?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

What about the seriousness of charges?

4274

It

08161

1

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

C&A board.

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

What about mental health evaluations?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

How were they considered?

8

A.

We’d see what the psych’s recommendation was.

2

9

For the -- on the hard card or the C&A board,

sir?

In a perfect

world we’d talk to the psych’ to see how he came to that

10

recommendation.

If we couldn’t talk to him -- if he wasn’t there,

11

then we would read why he made his ultimate recommendation.

12

Q.

So they were given weight?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

Before the C&A board would meet -- from January -- from

15

after -- from August until January -- from August 2010 until January

16

2011 where were the C&A boards documented?

17

A.

They were memorialized on a daily change roster, which is a

18

roster of everybody that was reviewed on the C&A board that day or

19

the DA; disciplinary adjustment board.

20

Q.

And where would that -- where would have been documented?

21

A.

Ultimately inside CORMIS.

There was a note that was put

22

inside CORMIS saying, you know, this guy was reviewed on this date.

23

He did or did not want to appear before the board.

4275

This was the

08162

1

recommendation.

He was reviewed by the psychologist -- we’d probably

2

put a sentence in there that said that, sir.

3

Q.

So they were documented in CORMIS before January 2011?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

After January 2011, a form -- brig form was used?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

When you sat on the board would you fill out the boxes on

8

the form?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And why would you do that?

11

A.

To prepare the document, sir.

I mean that -- usually the

12

document that -- those boxes you’re talking about one would have --

13

one would be assaultive or disruptive behavior, poor -- poor family

14

relationships -- I -- I forget what the other boxes were, sir.

15

would fill them out -- example; poor family relationships, that

16

doesn’t change week to week, sir.

17

it’s there, and that’s -- we don’t need to fill it out after the C&A

18

board or during the C&A board because filling it out, you know,

19

whether I do it before I get everybody together or while everybody’s

20

sitting there, it doesn’t change anything.

21
22
23

Q.

But I

So that’s -- I mean if it’s there

Were you filling them out because you were the counselor or

because you were the senior member?
A.

For -- for Manning in particular, sir, because I was the

4276

08163

1

counselor.

2

Q.

Were prisoners able to attend C&A boards?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And would a prisoner know he could attend a C&A board?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And how would he know?

7

A.

First, there it was written in the prisoners’ rules and

8

regulations.

9

board that day, the counselor that generated the DCR would inform

10

But if somebody was going to be reviewed by the C&A

those prisoners that were being reviewed that day, sir.

11

Q.

Was that taught as part of the indoctrination process?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

The -- I don’t remember if it was on the indoc’

13

test or not, but it was in the prisoners’ rules and reg’s.

14

C&A board was one of the things that were taught.

15
16

Q.

And the

Would PFC Manning have been told that he was able to attend

C&A boards?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And how often would he have been told?

19

A.

The day that he was getting reviewed by the C&A board, sir.

20

Q.

So every week?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

How often did you sit on C&A boards?

23

A.

I would say 99 percent of the time, sir.

4277

The only time I

08164

1
2
3

wouldn’t be on a C&A board is if I wasn’t there that day.
Q.

So during your time at -- your entire time at Quantico for

99 percent of the boards you sat on them?

4

A.

No, sir -- while I was the programs chief.

5

Q.

So that’s programs chief.

6
7
8

And how long were you programs

chief at Quantico?
A.

From December 2009 until I left Quantico in September 2011.

So, close to two years.

9

Q.

So what’s the process for a C&A board?

How does it start?

10

A.

Once the -- once all the C&A sheets are completed -- first

11

off, you want to make sure all the information on there’s accurate as

12

far as, you know, name spelling, the resident control number; that’s

13

the prisoner’s badge number.

14

would get the staffers together -- I’d have one of my counselors go

15

grab the other members that are going to be on the C&A board.

16

get there -- we’d go through usually alphabetically from the C&A

17

board.

18

okay, this is this guy’s name.

19

He’s being reviewed for this status, and that may be the same status

20

he was already in or a change to his status.

21

this status.

22

change -- even if it wasn’t a change, you know, why is this guy being

23

recommended for this status, you know, and then, you know, discuss

Once all those things are together, I

We’d

Once we got to the prisoner we’d start reviewing we’d say,
You know, he’s currently this status.

He’s being reviewed for

And then we’d go through and look at why -- if it was a

4278

08165

1

why he’s being recommended for the status.

2

easy.

3

general population, he passed the indoc’ test, he was coming off of

4

indoc’, sir.

5

Q.

How often would a detainee show up before the C&A board?

6

A.

Like personally appear, sir?

7

Q.

Yes.

8

A.

Never, sir.

9

Sometimes it’s really

If a guy was coming off indoc’ and getting assigned to the

I mean I’m not saying never, but it’s

extremely rare, sir.

10

Q.

So it was uncommon?

11

A.

Oh, yes, sir.

12

Q.

Do you remember if PFC Manning appeared before a C&A board?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

About how many times?

15

A.

Twice that I remember, sir.

16

Q.

Okay, and what do you remember about the first time?

17

A.

I don’t remember if it was the first or second time, sir.

18

I remember one, it was -- he didn’t have a whole lot to say.

19

sure if he knew what he was supposed to say, but it was -- it was

20

pretty quick because -- I think he was appearing just because he knew

21

he could appear and he wanted to appear.

22

that conversation between any of the board members or Manning -- I

23

don’t remember anything specific.

4279

I’m not

But it was -- nothing from

The other one -- again, I don’t

08166

1

remember if it was the first or second one -- he -- again, we went

2

over what we were there to talk about as far as the C&A board -- hey,

3

here’s your status.

4

this case it was to remain the same.

5

the order of ----

You’re being recommended for this status.

In

And then -- I don’t remember

6

Q.

Let’s come back to these in a little while.

7

A.

Okay, sir.

8

Q.

When -- how would you weigh a statement of how a detainee

9

feels now versus how he’s going to feel in the future?

Let me give

10

you an example to clarify.

11

looking forward to getting out and having a life after confinement

12

versus I’m feeling really sad and lonely right now.

13

you give more weight?

14

A.

So for instance let’s say, I’m really

Which one would

I’d give them the same weight just in opposite directions,

15

sir.

If somebody says, hey, I’ve got a plan this is -- when I get

16

out I’m going to -- I got this job.

17

Or this is what -- I’m going to school -- I have a plan.

18

has a plan beyond confinement.

19

thing.

20

feeling real sad or lonely, that’s a cause for concern.

I’m going to be with my family.
This guy

You know, and that’s -- that’s a good

If somebody tells me I don’t have a plan, hey, I’m just

21

Q.

So you weigh the statements based on their content?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

So after a detainee leaves -- if he appears before a C&A

4280

08167

1

board, what happens next?

2

A.

After the C&A board’s ----

3

Q.

No, after he appears and says -- and expresses his

4
5

thoughts?
A.

After he expresses his -- obviously -- I mean we -- if had

6

any questions, we’d answer his questions.

I make sure they

7

understood the questions and make sure they understood the answers to

8

the questions.

9

of the statements that, you know, the prisoner or detainee wanted to

And nobody would leave the room until all of -- all

10

make or made and all of his questions were answered to his

11

satisfaction.

12

Q.

What conclusion ----

13

A.

Not -- not meaning that he agreed with the answer, but that

14
15

he understood the answer.
Q.

What conclusions did you -- or what -- what recommendations

16

did you make as a member of the C&A board for PFC Manning other than

17

the times he was on suicide risk?

18

A.

To maintain current status, sir.

19

Q.

And what would that have been?

20

A.

POI, sir, if he wasn’t on suicide watch.

21

Q.

And maximum custody?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

Why?

4281

08168

1

A.

Because I never got -- I never got comfortable enough to be

2

able to justify to myself -- I don’t think this guy’s at a heightened

3

risk of, you know, for harming himself.

4

myself -- I couldn’t sell it to the CO, sir.

5

me why I’m recommending something.

6

recommending something that I don’t agree with myself.

I couldn’t justify it to
The CO’s going to ask

And if I can’t tell him why I’m

7

Q.

Did you consider PFC Manning’s behavior?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

What type of behavior did you consider?

10

A.

Well if during the periods of he was communicating with me,

11

I would consider how much is he communicating with me.

12

communication -- any of the -- he didn’t really have any disciplinary

13

infractions.

14

couple of times; considered those.

15

observed while he was actually, you know, in his -- in his cell.

16

Example, when they told me he was licking the bars or if he was to --

17

sword fighting or whatever else they had documented.

18

was that of what normal prisoners were doing, sir.

19
20
21

Q.

I would have considered those.

His

He got counseled a

Any of the things that the guards

If his behavior

What could PFC Manning have done for you to recommend a

different custody and classification?
A.

The biggest thing to me sir?

Communicate with me.

Make me

22

believe that when he says he’s not going to harm myself -- I’m not

23

suicidal, make me believe that that is true.

4282

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1

Q.

And how often ----

2

A.

I -- I can be comfortable with that answer and I -- I -- I

3

agree with you.

I don’t think that you need to be watched any more

4

closely than that of the general population prisoners.

5

Q.

And how often would you discuss that idea with PFC Manning?

6

A.

Whenever the topic of his custody and classification came

7

up.

I mean it wasn’t -- it wasn’t a topic of discussion every week.

8

If he ever asked me about his custody and classification, we would

9

definitely talk about that.

Just that question alone would begin --

10

begin to talk -- the talk about the C&A board and his conduct -- how

11

the C&A board goes, what’s reviewed, what I consider, what I’m

12

looking for.

13

that came up if he did -- if he did something then I would go talk to

14

him -- like something significant -- I wouldn’t go talk to him every

15

time somebody told me he was lifting imaginary weights.

16

- if I heard about it, I wouldn’t go run and talk to him about it.

So it wasn’t -- it wasn’t weekly, sir, but every time

I wouldn’t -

17

Q.

Did you ever consider making a different recommendation for

18

PFC Manning?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

When?

21

A.

Early January of 2011, sir.

22

Q.

Did you discuss this rec -- this idea with other people?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

4283

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1

Q.

With whom?

2

A.

The first time -- once -- once I was pretty confident that

3

I was going to make my recommendation to take him off of POI, if --

4

it was a Friday, sir.

5

week to recommend to the CO that we remove him from POI.

6

was walking out of the brig for the day on Friday, I told Staff

7

Sergeant Jordan that.

8

passing and I said, hey, I think next week I’m going to do it, you

9

know, one more week.

I -- I was -- I was ready to recommend next
And as I

And more so we’re just -- we’re talking in

He’s been talking to me.

I think he’s ready.

10

You know, one more week and I’m good.

I also want to see what, you

11

know, to see what Staff Sergeant Jordan thought, you know.

12

just talking as we’re leaving.

We’re

13

Q.

So why not make that recommendation at that time?

14

A.

Sir, that next week was an -- the whole squad bay incident

15

happened down in the rec’ room.

16

Q.

You mean the 18 January 2011?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Let’s talk about that in a little while.

What orders did

19

you receive about conducting C&A boards?

Were you ever ordered to

20

keep any detainee on a certain custody or a classification?

21

A.

No, sir.

22

Q.

Were you ever ordered to keep PFC Manning on POI?

23

A.

No, sir.

4284

08171

1
2

Q.

Were you ever ordered to keep PFC Manning on maximum

custody?

3

A.

No, sir.

4

Q.

Were you ever ordered to make any recommendations of any

5

kind?

6

A.

No, sir.

7

Q.

What is CORMIS?

8

A.

CORMIS is the acronym for Correctional Management

9

My recommendations was my recommendations, sir.

Information System, sir.

Basically it’s a database that all

10

prisoners in the Navy and Marine Corps facilities are -- it’s their

11

electronic records, sir.

12

Q.

And what is contained in CORMIS?

13

A.

Everything, sir.

Everything from their name to -- all

14

their personal information; name, birthday, date they were confined,

15

charges they were confined for, classification records, disciplinary

16

infractions, all the -- all the paper documents that are generated in

17

their record, they were scanned electronically and uploaded into

18

CORMIS.

19
20
21
22

It was everything, sir.

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

If -- it’s everything, sir.

Now, Your Honor, I want to hand the witness

Enclosure 24 to Appellate Exhibit 259.
MJ:

Okay.

[The trial counsel handed the document to the witness.]

4285

08172

1
2
3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I’m handing Enclosure 24 of Appellate Exhibit 259

to the witness.
Q.

Master Sergeant Blenis, I actually want to work from the

4

back because this is in reverse chronological order.

5

[The witness looked through the document.]

6

Q.

On Page 57?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Can you explain what the dates are in the most left column?

9

So at the bottom it would be 2010, August 2d.

10

A.

11

that if ----

12

Q.

What do you mean by target action date?

13

A.

If that was a -- the date the actual counseling happened,

14
15
16
17

That’s the -- okay, this is the target action date, sir,

that’s the date that it happened -- the actual calendar date.
Q.

And what is -- we’re at the bottom of Page 57.

What is

August the 3d 2010?
A.

That’s the date it was saved, sir.

That’s the date it was

18

actually put in CORMIS and the save button is clicked, sir.

19

that’s a date you can’t -- it’s automatically generated, sir.

20
21

Q.

And

I want to go that entry that we’re just talking about --

the middle of the paragraph starting with “During the interview.”

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

What was PFC Manning told during his indoctrination

4286

08173

1
2

interview -- or during his interview with you, I mean?
A.

[Reading from the document] That he will remain suicide

3

risk status until the brig psychiatrist recommends removal and the

4

Brig Commanding Officer removes him from the status.

5
6

Q.

So his process of getting his status changed was discussed

very early with him?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And moving up two entries to the target action date of

9
10

August 2nd still, was PFC Manning given counseling on suicide
awareness and the importance of speaking with the counselor?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And what was he told, do you remember?

13

A.

If you feel you’re -- you’re even remotely thinking about

14

considering hurting yourself that you need to speak to someone ASAP.

15

I don’t care if it’s the guard that’s working down there in the

16

special quarters or -- I don’t care if it’s, you know, the guard

17

walking by, I don’t care if it’s me.

18

person you see.

19

Q.

You need to tell the first

I want to move to Page 56 now, and the entry on 10 August

20

2010, the counselor notes.

21

interview about his custody and classification -- about the middle of

22

the paragraph?

23

A.

What was PFC Manning told during the

[Reading from the document] During the interview SND was

4287

08174

1

informed about the process of reducing his custody and classification

2

and possible job assignments.

3

Q.

So even then -- so early on again was PFC Manning being

4

told and informed about his custody and classification and the

5

process?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Would you have discussed this with him?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And I want to highlight the next entry up 11 August 2010.

10

What does it say about PFC Manning’s notification about the C&A

11

board?

12
13
14
15

A.

[Reading from the document] SND did not have any questions

and did not request to appear before the board.
Q.

Does it also say that he was notified he’s -- his custody

and classification would be reviewed that day?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I just want to note for the record that

18

throughout CORMIS this entry here in Enclosure 24 “Until January, PFC

19

Manning, every week, was told he could appear before the board and he

20

did not.”

21
22
23

Q.

And we’re going to jump ahead a little, Master Sergeant.

Let’s go to Page 53.
[The witness did as directed.]

4288

08175

1
2

Q.

About the middle again.

What comment do you make about how

PFC Manning communicated during the interview?

3

A.

Looking at August 30th, sir?

4

Q.

Sorry -- yes, 30 August.

5

A.

[Reading from the document] During the interview SND stated

6

that he was doing well but otherwise remained quiet.

SND continues

7

to remain quiet unless he’s spoken to first, and is then short with

8

his answers or responses.

9

Q.

Was that typical for your level of communication?

10

A.

With Manning, sir?

11

Q.

Yes.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Would you have tried -- is this when you tried to get him

14
15

Yes, sir.

to open up more?
A.

Yes, sir.

It was probably before August 30th at that

16

point. He’d been there for a month.

But that was -- that was

17

probably how it continued until November timeframe, sir.

18

Q.

Let’s jump to Page 52 now for the 7 September 2010 entry.

19

A.

[Looking through the document] Yes, sir.

20

Q.

At the very end what does PFC Manning say about the way he

21

passes his days?

22

MJ:

What day did you say it is?

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7 September 2010.

4289

08176

1

A.

[Reading from the document] SND started reading during the

2

day to pass time, but only if it was an educational book since he

3

does not read recreationally.

4

Q.

Would you have talked to him about his activities in the

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And why would you do that?

8

A.

To see how he’s passing his time, sir.

9

Q.

Why -- why is that important?

10

A.

If I’ve got a person that’s communicating with me that’s

5

cell?

11

sitting -- just sitting there in their cell not doing anything,

12

that’s pretty much not a whole lot of anything to discuss, I mean,

13

it’s pretty much nothing.

14

doing anything, sir.

I mean he’s sitting there existing but not

15

Q.

Let’s move ahead to Page 49, 12 October 2010.

16

A.

[Looking through the document] Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Why does it say that PFC Manning wants minimal contact with

18

the facility staff?

19

A.

Because he wasn’t interacting with anybody, sir.

20

Q.

What do you mean by anybody?

21

A.

If -- any interaction that he was having with staff -- now

22

this isn’t me witnessing -- all this is what I’m hearing from staff

23

members is -- basically the same way he was interacting with me was -

4290

08177

1

- you know, if I talk to him -- it’s short direct questions not

2

elaborating on much at all.

3

know, get us to go on.

4

chow, you know, whatever, and move on.

5

do whatever business the guard’s there to do and, you know, get

6

going.

7
8
9

Q.

And, you know, he was trying -- you

You know, yes, no, aye, aye.

Thanks for the

Answer whatever questions or

Let’s jump to Page 48.

[The witness did as directed.]
Q.

The top of the page is the entry for 18 October 2010.

What

10

kind -- what kind of efforts did you take here to spark conversation

11

with PFC Manning?

12

A.

[Reading from the document] To provoke conversation, SND’s

13

counselor asked SND’s thoughts on the existence of Sasquatch.

14

the subject was brought up the dialog between and counselor was that

15

of a normal conversation.

16

about the evolution of man and the man’s use of brain.

17

the story -- or at the end of the conversation, SND was given a copy

18

of the “Alligator River Story” from a Crossroads module, which will

19

be followed up on next week.

20

office for the interview, but SND stated he was fine in his cell.

21

When told about it -- when told it would help break up the monotony

22

of the day and help reduce boredom, SND stated that he was not bored

23

in his cell since he’s used to it.

Once

The dialog evolved into a conversation
At the end of

SND was brought to the counselor’s

4291

Unless SND is in -- any form of

08178

1

visitation or executing a portion of the daily routine -- example, a

2

Sunshine Call or a TV call; SND spends his entire day sitting Indian

3

style on his rack until taps.

4

book in his possession between reveille and taps, SND has only read

5

two books since his arrival at Quantico.

6
7

Q.

So, Master Sergeant, why would you document that last

sentence that he’d only read two books?

8
9

Although SND is authorized to have a

A.

They’re -- most prisoners are able to read a book in one or

two days, and they go through the entire library -- some of them --

10

while they’re there.

11

that prisoners do to pass time inside the -- inside the brig, sir,

12

especially during normal working hours because during normal working

13

hours TV call’s not going.

14

cell.

15
16
17

I mean, reading is one of the biggest things

If they’re not at work they’re in their

And so reading becomes a huge focus, sir.
Q.

And was it -- when you said -- was it unusual for someone

to read so little?
A.

No, sir.

I mean there’s prisoners that don’t read at all.

18

But I mean they’re rare.

19

know, before they’re confined, they start reading, sir.

20
21

Q.

Prisoners that don’t read normally, you

And would this be the type of behavior you would have

considered when you sat a classification and assignment board?

22

A.

Yes, sir, or lack of behavior if you want to call it that.

23

Q.

And would have every factor that went into your decision at

4292

08179

1

the time been documented on the form or in CORMIS?

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

Why not?

4

A.

Sir, I’m not going to document every time someone does or

5

does not talk to me, every time someone does or does not read a book,

6

every time somebody does or does not interact with the staff the way

7

they’d normally be expected, that’s just -- if we did that, sir, at

8

what point are we actually running the brig and not writing?

9
10

Q.

Let’s move to Page 45 and 46.

Start at the entry for 2

November 2010.

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

12

Q.

In the note section it states that the Brig OIC authorized

13

PFC Manning an additional correspondence time.

Why was that?

14

A.

I’m sorry, sir?

15

Q.

Why was PFC Manning authorized additional correspondence

17

A.

Because the commanding officer approved it, sir.

18

Q.

And why would he have done that?

19

A.

I recommended it, sir.

20

Q.

So why would you -- why did you recommend that then?

21

A.

At this point if I made that recommendation, sir, that’s

16

time?

22

because Manning must have already been -- you know, he’s talking to

23

me a little bit more.

4293

08180

1

Q.

Is that -- do you note that in the paragraph above?

2

A.

[Reading from the document] It says SND did not receive any

3

disciplinary reports or adverse spot evaluation reports.

During the

4

interview SND stated he was doing well and everything was going fine.

5

SND again showed no desire to engage in any conversation aside from

6

how he’s doing and if his attorney had called.

7

Q.

A little further down you described his spirits on Page 46?

8

A.

[Reading from the document] SND was reviewed by the -- SND

9
10
11
12

appears to be in high spirits and have a positive attitude.
Q.

Why would you have described him as being in high spirits

and a positive attitude?
A.

I -- sir, I don’t remember what I saw on that day or had

13

been seeing a couple of days previous to it.

14

that made me write it, sir.

But I saw something

15

Q.

Are you documenting an improvement there?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Is that part of the reason maybe you recommended increasing

18

correspondence time?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Back on Page 45 for 8 November, how was PFC Manning’s level

21

of communication ----

22

[The witness looked at the document.]

23

Q.

---- you don’t have to read -- level of communication

4294

08181

1
2

following -- the following this session?
A.

Sir, still he’s pretty much avoiding any kind of

3

conversation -- engaging in any kind of conversation, and he appears

4

to be content left being to himself, sir.

5
6

Q.

Looking at that notes what does that suggest to you about a

change from the previous week?

7

A.

I didn’t write his -- high spirited, sir.

8

Q.

So what does that suggest to you looking back at your

9
10

notes?
A.

That he was -- he didn’t do anything that made me think,

11

hey, this guy’s -- actually seems like he’s in a pretty good mood

12

today.

13

to me.

14

He didn’t do anything noteworthy, sir, that really stuck out

Q.

Moving to Page 41.

15

November.

16

in the top box.

I’m going back -- looking for 23

Just so you know -- your bearings, we’re going to Page 43

17

[Looking at the document] Okay, sir.

18

Q.

Is this where you documented some of the behavior?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

And this is -- as far as the -- being observed

20

sword fighting, imaginary characters in his cell, that’s not me

21

observing it, sir, that’s what’s written in that -- the logbook we

22

talked about earlier, sir.

23

CORMIS and his prisoner record and I was doing a weekly progress

And this is me just -- being that we have

4295

08182

1

report, I started putting all of this in CORMIS to try and

2

essentially locate all these different documents that are being

3

generated, sir.

4

and I wanted to kind of put it into one spot, sir.

5

Q.

It was -- I mean there was a lot of different things

And going back to Page 41 for the entry from 30 November,

6

what changed does the Brig OIC make with regard to PFC Manning’s

7

recreation time?

8

[The witness looked at the document.]

9

Q.

Number 3.

10

A.

Said he approved the Sunshine Call be conducted without

11

requirement the Brig OIC, brig supervisor or operations chief having

12

to be aboard the facility.

13

Q.

And why would he have made that change?

14

A.

Because at that point he -- the CO probably felt -- he felt

15

like, hey, you know, I -- I’m not so concerned that something’s going

16

to happen when he goes out to rec’ call that I don’t need to be here.

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

Q.

Were you making any recommendations with regard to rec’

time around the end of November 2010?
A.

Yes, sir.

There was -- there was a point where I

recommended that it get extended to one hour, sir.
Q.

And so this is -- was this partially acting on your

recommendation?
A.

Yes, sir.

4296

08183

1
2

Q.

I want to ask you about from Page 36, the entry for 20

December 2010.

3

[The witness looked at the document.]

4

Q.

5
6

You talk about PFC Manning being quiet and discuss his

interaction with his family members.
A.

Why was that worth noting?

‘Cause he seemed upset that nobody came to visit him since

7

his birthday was coming up, sir -- or his birthday actually had --

8

was this past Friday, sir.

9
10
11

Q.

And what -- what would that make you think?

Would that

play a role in your recommendation for a prevention of injury?
A.

Yes, sir.

I mean he -- he must have been expecting them

12

because he was upset that they didn’t come.

13

he was just thinking they might come or if he heard something.

14

he was just hoping that, you know, my birthday’s coming up, maybe my

15

-- I think it was his aunt had been coming a couple times up until

16

there, so maybe he’s just thinking, hey, maybe they’ll come for my

17

birthday.

18

hopeful.

19

looked -- I don’t remember it, but obviously I felt like noting that

20

he looked upset.

21

Q.

So I don’t know if -- if
Maybe

I don’t know if he’s expecting them or not, but maybe
And then they didn’t.

But I know during this interview it

I want to move to Page 33 now for 28 December 2010 and ask

22

you about -- do you remember counseling PFC Manning about voluntary

23

statements?

4297

08184

1

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

I told him that a

2

voluntary statement is just that; it’s voluntary, sir.

3

you’re not forced to write a voluntary statement.

4

designed so something’s documented.

5

to ask the prisoner to write a voluntary statement and they said no,

6

it’s going to get documented anyway.

7

document it in a voluntary statement.

8

- I don’t want to go outside for recreation call.

9

voluntary statement, you know, tell me that, hey, you -- didn’t go to

We’re asking the prisoner to
In this case recreation call -

rec’ call today because you didn’t want to.

11

that statement, sir.

12

incident report.

14
15
16
17
18

Q.

If -- it’s

If something happens and we were

10

13

You’re not --

Hey, put it on a

He doesn’t have to write

If he doesn’t we’re just going to write an

Moving to Page 31, what behavior did PFC Manning exhibit on

4 January 2011?
A.

[Looking at the document] Talking and giggling to himself

then beating himself in the chest, sir.
Q.

Was it the kind of thing the classification and assignment

board would consider?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Then on Page 28 and 29, does it say if PFC Manning was

21

notified about a classification and assignment board that he could

22

appear on 14 January 2011?

23

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

4298

08185

1
2

Q.

And did PFC Manning choose to appear before a

classification and assignment board that day?

3

A.

No, sir.

4

Q.

All right.

5
6

Let’s talk a little bit about 18 January 2011.

What do you remember about that day?
A.

Where does it start for you?

Probably around lunchtime, maybe early afternoon, sir, I

7

think.

They -- the guards took him down to -- down to the squad bay

8

-- down to the recreation area inside.

9

don’t really know exactly what happened.

And I wasn’t there, sir, so I
I know -- it was basically

10

reported that once -- once he got there -- I’m not sure if the

11

restraints were on or off at the time.

12

were working on getting them off, but he started -- ultimately he

13

ended up running and curling up on the floor or going behind a

14

machine or something like that and then crying or something like

15

that, sir.

I think they were off or they

16

Q.

Do you remember seeing him after the incident?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And how did he appear when you first saw him?

19

A.

I remember talking to him after, sir.

How he appeared?

20

When I -- when I got down to the cell he was -- if I remember

21

correctly he was standing -- he was agitated, sir.

22

acting out or anything when I got there.

23

he was upset.

4299

Not -- he wasn’t

I can tell -- I could tell

08186

1

Q.

And do you remember talking to him?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And was this before or after the video started?

4

A.

The camera was already there when I got there, sir.

I

5

don’t know if they’re recording or not but the camera was -- the

6

camera’s already there, sir.

7

Q.

Do you remember a protest at Quantico?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Do you remember the staff talking about them?

10

A.

Of course, sir, we -- I mean we knew they were going on.

11

We had a couple of extra posts set up because of them -- not just us

12

at the brig, but the PMO did, sir.

13

Q.

Did they ever interfere with your life?

14

A.

With my life, sir?

15

Q.

Coming and going?

16

A.

No, sir.

17

Q.

Did -- do you remember the staff being irritated?

18

A.

I don’t think they really cared about the protest itself,

19

sir.

20

were pulling extra posts.

21

and they were coming on what was normally scheduled to be off.

22

mean nobody’s happy about that.

23

I mean they’re -- I’m sure they were upset that, you know, they

Q.

We were on, sir, 24 hour shifts as it was

But you don’t remember that affecting the way they

4300

So I

08187

1

interacted with detainees at all?

2
3
4
5
6

A.

I don’t think so.

I never heard of anything like that,

Q.

And after this 18 January incident did you counsel PFC

sir.

Manning about it?
A.

We talked about it, sir.

I remember he told me he felt

7

like he was provoked or something like that.

8

corrected -- corrected about something by a couple of the guards I

9

think -- I think before he actually went down to the squad bay if I

I think he was

10

remember correctly -- that or as soon as he got there, I’m not sure.

11

And I think he told me he felt like he was just being like singled

12

out or -- I’m not -- he was just messed with, sir.

13

know what the correction was.

14
15

Q.

I don’t really

Do you remember the classification and assignment board

thereafter on 21 January?

16

[The witness looked through the document.]

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Do you remember someone bringing up the question about PFC

19

Manning’s statement about always planning and never acting on

20

suicide?

21

A.

Yes, sir, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller did.

22

Q.

And what did PFC Manning -- did PFC Manning explain the

23

statement?

4301

08188

1

A.

Yes, sir.

When -- when Gunny Fuller said -- you wrote that

2

-- that you were considering suicide and you were always planning and

3

never acting, if I remember right, PFC Manning didn’t -- didn’t

4

remember writing it or said it didn’t remember writing it.

5

-- and I remember Gunny Fuller saying -- saying that you filled out

6

documentation in this building that said that.

7

actually showed him the form.

8

back and said well, that may have been false.

And Gunny

And Gunny Fuller

And Manning looked at it, and he sat

9

Q.

What did that mean to you?

10

A.

Well, sir, the first thing that popped in my head because

11

it was almost immediate, I said, well, if that may have been false,

12

then five minutes earlier when we -- pretty much when we first sat

13

down when I asked you were suicidal right now, you said, no.

14

him should I assume that statement’s also false?

15

And then Gunnery Sergeant Fuller almost immediately said do you

16

understand what you were just asked?

I asked

And he said yes.

And Manning said yes.

17

Q.

And what did that make you think after all that?

18

A.

Sir, at that point I didn’t know what to believe.

I mean I

19

-- he was giving me an answer but then telling me it may be false.

20

He was telling me that a statement that he did write may be false.

21

-- at this point, sir, he’s telling me that he’s -- at that point I

22

think anything may be false.

23

false.

I

If he tells me at all it might be

I don’t know at this point.

4302

Now I’m -- now I’m dumbfounded.

08189

1

I don’t know what to think anymore, sir.

2

Q.

So how does this affect your trust with PFC Manning?

3

A.

It went down, sir.

4

statements.

5

to me, sir.

6

Q.

Not of him in particular but of his

I mean it went down significantly, sir.

That was huge

Let’s move to Page 20, which discusses PFC Manning’s -- PFC

7

Manning’s appearance before a classification and assignment board.

8

Does it -- does it describe PFC Manning being sarcastic about that

9

statement?

10

[The witness looked at the document.]

11

Q.

At the end of the first paragraph.

12

A.

[Looking at the document] He said he was being sarcastic

13
14
15
16

when he wrote it -- when he wrote always planning, never acting.
Q.

And is this about that appearance before the board or a

different appearance?
A.

I think this is the -- this is re -- where we’re talking

17

about the statement he made in the previous board he appeared on

18

about two weeks earlier.

19
20

Q.

Is sarcasm something that’s easy that -- how does sarcasm

affect communication with brig staff?

21

A.

Sir, I don’t interpret sarcasm from prisoners, sir.

22

Q.

Why not?

23

A.

It’s not my job, sir, especially -- sir, when we’re talking

4303

08190

1

about suicidal statements of actions or gestures, I -- sarcasm’s out

2

of the picture.

3

you just don’t do.

4

a bomb.

5

to a jail and joke about suicide.

6

If there’s -- there’s certain things in this world
Example; I don’t go to an airport and joke about

I don’t go to D.C. and joke about assassination.

Q.

I don’t go

Let’s -- let’s go forward in time a little bit to 2 March

7

2011.

Do you remember PFC Manning making a -- hearing about any

8

comments PFC Manning may have made about his underwear?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And what did you hear PFC Manning said?

11

A.

I didn’t hear Manning say it.

I was told that he said if I

12

wanted to kill myself, I would use the elastic in my underwear or

13

words to that effect.

14

Q.

And how did you hear about it?

15

A.

Master Sergeant Papakie told me about it, sir.

16

Q.

And what did you do in response?

17

A.

I didn’t do anything, sir.

18

he told me about it.

19

there as well.

20

his underwear now.

I mean, I was in my office when

I believe Chief Warrant Officer Barnes was in

My first thought was if we -- we can’t let him have

21

Q.

Why -- why would you think that?

22

A.

Sir, that’s a plan.

23

If somebody tells me they’re going to

shoot themselves in the face I’m not going to give them a gun.

4304

08191

1
2

Q.

Is this because humor -- the way you interpret humor as a

counselor and a member of the brig staff?

3

A.

I’m sorry, sir?

4

Q.

Is that because the way you interpret sarcasm as a member

5
6
7
8
9

of the brig staff and counselor?
A.

I don’t interpret sarcasm, sir.

Not ‘cause -- not when

we’re talking about hurting yourself.
Q.

What did PFC Manning say about the comment when he talked

to you about it?

10

A.

[No response.]

11

Q.

How much did he -- how much did he tell you about the

12
13

comment?
A.

Sir, I asked him -- you know, I didn’t -- I didn’t -- I

14

didn’t restate the comment to him.

I asked him what he said to

15

Master Sergeant Papakie.

16

It’s just myself and PFC Manning in my office.

17

man, what did you say to Master Sergeant Papakie?

18

like he didn’t know what I was talking about.

19

-- at this point I already knew the answer because it’s after me and

20

Master Sergeant Papakie talked.

21

Master Sergeant Papakie?

22

talking about.

23

remember my quotes now -- and I’m like, hey, you said or did

And -- at this point this is in my office.
And I asked him, hey,
And he -- he acted

I mean I already knew

I asked him, what did you say to

He acted like he didn’t know what I was

And I said, well, did you do something or -- I don’t

4305

08192

1

something that, you know, to Master Sergeant Papakie, and, you know,

2

we’re about to have your underwear taken away.

3

you’re allowed not to have your underwear anymore.

4

never really acknowledged the statement.

5

what he said.

6

Q.

Did he deny the statement?

7

A.

I didn’t tell him the statement, sir.

You’re not allowed -He never -- he

He never came out and said

So I didn’t -- I

8

didn’t ask him, hey, did you say this, and then he said, no, I did

9

not say that.

10
11
12

At least I don’t remember saying that to him.

I’m

almost positive of that.
Q.

So how much communication was there about this from PFC

Manning?

13

A.

Next to none, sir.

14

Q.

Were there any other events around that time that may have

15

We were very brief.

-- you may have considered in context?

16

A.

[No response.]

17

Q.

Do you remember if PFC Manning was going off his medication

18
19

in the beginning of March?
A.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

There was a series of events almost -- I

20

mean within a real short timeframe that were, you know, to me they

21

were risk factors.

22

but when I have small stuff stacked up -- it’s big stuff.

23

I don’t remember the order -- he did get taken off his medications.

And, again, each one in itself is maybe small,

4306

The -- and

08193

1

And I remember that being significant only because at one point --

2

and this -- I don’t remember what day this is, but this is real close

3

to this timeframe, he asked me, you know, I don’t understand why I’m

4

on suicide watch or prevention of injury.

5

was or anything.

6

him -- I’m like, hey, what -- in suicide -- in Kuwait you were

7

suicidal.

And he said yes.

8

said yes.

“Yes” meaning he’s not.

9

changed?

You know, something between Kuwait and now -- something’s

10

changed.

And he said nothing’s changed.

11

look, if you’re not having the same feelings you were then until now,

12

something must have changed.

Anything.

13

Something must have changed.

And he told me that they were taking

14

him off of -- well he no longer was suicidal because they put him on

15

medications back in Kuwait, I believe.

16

medications you’re getting taken off of?

17

started taking him off at that point.

18

didn’t just cold turkey it.

19

two week period they started reducing his medications until

20

ultimately he came off.

21

talking about that they put him on to make him not feel suicidal

22

anymore.

23

that’s changed?

I don’t know why I ever

And we talked about it a little bit.

And I asked

And I’m like but now you’re not?

And he

I asked him -- I go, okay, what’s

And I told him -- I’m like,

Give me something small.

And I asked him -- these the
I’m not sure if they

They just didn’t -- they

They -- they -- I think over maybe the

But they were the same medications he was

And so -- now I’m thinking, okay, that’s the only thing
And he’s like, yeah, that’s the only thing that’s

4307

08194

1

changed.

I’m like, okay, so if pre-meds’ you’re suicidal, post-meds’

2

you’re not, but now we’re going back to pre-meds’, doesn’t that put

3

us back at square one?

4

this.

5

exactly -- completely removed at that time or if they’re in the

6

process -- they’re in the process of being removed at least.

7

then his mental visitation list; he had ----

You know, this is what I’m gathering from

So the medications were getting removed.

8

Q.

Do you remember when that was?

9

A.

The medication, sir?

10

Q.

No, no, no.

11

I don’t have a fear

And

Like -- do you remember when he changed his

visitation list?

12

A.

The same timeframe, sir.

13

Q.

I mean all -- all within a matter of days of -- the 22d --

14
15
16

the 22d of March, maybe?
A.

Yes, sir.

I’m not -- I can’t remember the date, sir.

But

it was all really close --

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

-- between -- between the medications getting removed, the

19

mail and visitation list and -- what was significant to me about the

20

mail and visitation list -- even though he’s removed -- and it was

21

all the names except for just a handful.

22

significant was up until that point everybody that had visited him,

23

if I remember correctly, that had visited him up to that point were

4308

But to me what was

08195

1

removed.

So the only people that were left on the list were people

2

that had never visited.

3

essentially he was -- left a mail and visitation list of people that

4

hadn’t come to visit them at this point in the eight months or so --

5

seven or eight months since he’s been there.

6

significant to me because at that point it’s isolation.

7

this point he had -- I don’t think he’d ever made a phone -- outside

8

of speaking to his attorneys or probably his command, he’d never make

9

any personal phone calls to family or friends or anything like that.

Of if they did visit, maybe once.

So

So that was kind of
Up until

10

And he didn’t receive any letters that he actually accepted.

11

didn’t write any letters either, sir.

12

shutting himself off to everybody -- outside of his attorney -- to

13

anybody he ever talked to, sir.

14

writing, and now he’s not visiting.

15

Q.

And he

So now I’ve got him basically

He wasn’t reading, he wasn’t

Let’s talk a little bit about intellectual stimulation.

16

remember Colonel Malone making any recommendations that PFC Manning

17

would benefit from increased intellectual stimulation?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Is that something you tried to work with?

20

A.

Yes, sir, a couple of months earlier -- about several

21

months earlier probably.

22

Q.

Would you please turn to Page 4?

23

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

4309

Do

08196

1

Q.

What happened when you tried to discuss brain teasers with

2

PFC Manning?

3

A.

He said they were below my level.

4

Q.

What’s that mean?

5

A.

-- I remember him telling me, you know, it just wasn’t

6

challenging enough.

7

chess with him -- long before that.

8

I remember --

He said the same thing when I tried to play

Q.

And how -- how would he express it?

10

A.

Really -- arrogantly, sir.

11

what I heard.

12

Q.

9

13

be?

A.

Not specifically, sir.

I wouldn’t say he didn’t.

I just

Q.

Do you see where it says he did express the desire to have

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay, yes, sir -- yes, sir, he

----

18
19

Do you remember PFC Manning around this time expressing the

don’t specifically remember it.

16
17

Extremely arrogant -- that’s

desire for note taking material?

14
15

What would his tone

did express the desire to have note taking material.

20

Q.

Would you have forwarded that recommendation to the Brig

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And on Page 2, did the Brig OIC act on that recommendation,

21

OIC?

4310

08197

1

Number 4?

2
3
4
5
6

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir, he did.

He approved

Q.

So would you -- how individualized would you say that PFC

it.

Manning’s treatment was?
A.

Pretty individualized, sir.

I can tell you -- use the

7

example of correspondence time being two hours.

8

changed at that point.

9

everything -- not everything but, you know every prisoner’s hand --

10

letter definitely.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

12

Everybody’s got

So it was -- the -- it changed -- it changed

Thank you.

No further questions.

Your Honor,

the United States requests a 15 minute recess.

13

MJ:

Okay, any objection?

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

No objection, Your Honor.

Although we may

15

need slightly longer, I have to maybe -- stuff I need to set up.

16

I can advise the court -- we can start with 15, and then if need be,

17

I can advise the court.

18

MJ:

19

10 minutes to.

20

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1437, 2 December 2012.]

21

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1502, 2 December

22

2012.]

23

MJ:

All right, why don’t we do that?

Court is in recess until

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

4311

If

Let the

08198

1

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

2

again present in court.

3

Coombs?

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5
6

The witness is on the witness stand.

Mr.

Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by the civilian defense counsel:

7

Q.

Master Sergeant Blenis, I remind you you’re under oath.

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

All right, now you found out about PFC Manning’s arrival

10

about three days prior to him arriving at the brig, correct?

11

A.

Yes, sir, three to four days.

12

Q.

You received some emails with attachments containing PFC

13

Manning’s files?

14

A.

15

attachments.

16

that mostly didn’t mean a whole lot of anything.

17

attachments -- I don’t think it was his entire file though, sir.

18
19

Q.

Not -- not his entire file, sir.

It was a lot of

Quite a few of them were just logbook entries that -But quite a few

So you received an email containing files related to PFC

Manning?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And you remember looking at those files?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And you emailed Captain Hocter on the day of PFC Manning’s

4312

08199

1
2
3
4
5
6

arrival, correct?
A.

Yes, sir.

I think I actually emailed him before that, but

probably the same day, sir.
Q.

And you wanted Captain Hocter to schedule or possibly third

weekly visit to the brig in order to see PFC Manning?
A.

Yes, sir, because I think he came there -- the night that

7

he arrived, and I think we wanted him to come like the next day or

8

two days after or something like that, sir.

9
10

Q.

But you actually asked him -- we want you to schedule a

second and possibly a third weekly visit?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And you told Captain Hocter that PFC Manning was going to

13

be a high profile case?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

You anticipated that the media would be “Knocking on your

16

door fairly often”?

17

A.

I guess so, sir.

18

Q.

Do you recall saying that?

19

A.

No, sir.

20
21
22
23

I mean -- if you’re reading it, sir, I guess I

did -- I concede that.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m showing you what’s been marked Appellate

Exhibit 435 Alpha [handing the document to the witness].
Q.

This is the email from you to Captain Hocter?

4313

08200

1

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And, again, you tell him that the media would be knocking

3

on your door fairly often, correct?

4

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

5

Q.

You also told Captain Hocter that PFC Manning had been

6

“Deemed a high risk to himself from as high as a major general in the

7

Army”?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

You also told him that Headquarter Marine Corps had already

10

contacted you at this point stressing the attention that you were

11

going to get from having PFC Manning at the brig?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And Captain Hocter agreed to come a second or third time

14

weekly?

15

A.

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

17
18
19
20

Yes, sir.
Retrieving 435 Alpha from the witness

[retrieving the document from the witness].
Q.

But you knew that PFC Manning’s case is being watched by

people much higher in the chain of command, correct?
A.

That’s -- that’s what I was led to believe, sir, either by

21

word-of-mouth from my chain of command or maybe part of the email

22

attachments, sir -- email -- yes, sir.

23

Q.

All right.

And you knew it was being watched by Lieutenant

4314

08201

1
2
3

General Flynn?
A.

At that point, no, sir.

about all of that, sir.

But I -- I didn’t really think

I just know what I was being briefed.

4

Q.

Well, let me ask you --

5

A.

I don’t know if General Flynn’s name ever came up.

6

Q.

-- the question, you knew that Lieutenant General Flynn was

7
8
9

paying attention to this case while PFC Manning was at the brig?
A.

No, sir.

I don’t know if Major -- Lieutenant General Flynn

himself personally was.

I don’t remember thinking him.

10

Q.

Is that your testimony --

11

A.

It wouldn’t surprise me though.

12

Q.

-- right now?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

[Pause]

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m handing the witness what has been marked

17

Appellate Exhibit 435 Bravo for the record [handing the document to

18

the witness].

19

Q.

Do you recognize that?

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Okay, so this is an email from you to Chief Averhart,

22

cc’ing Gunny Sergeant Papakie, regarding some information that you

23

received from me, correct?

4315

08202

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Basically I wanted to confirm some report that my client

3

might have been licking the bars, is that correct?

4

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5

Q.

And you confirmed that Manning had been observed licking

6

the bars to his cell while appearing to be sleeping, correct?

7

A.

Sleep walking -- yes, sir.

8

Q.

All right.

9

And so at that point then you were concerned

because you thought how did I know that information, right?

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

And, in fact, then you say the chain of this information

12

went from the guard to me, and from me to Master Sergeant Papakie and

13

yourself via the weekly report, correct?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

To my knowledge -- excuse me, to my understanding this

16

report goes from yourself, to our commanding officer, then to Colonel

17

Choike, who I assume briefs Lieutenant General Flynn?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

So you knew Lieutenant General Flynn was involved in the

21

A.

No, sir.

22

Q.

Right.

23

A.

-- so at the time of Manning’s confinement -- initial

20

case?
This is dated November 30th --

4316

08203

1

confinement at Quantico, I didn’t know if General Flynn was involved

2

or if he knew anything about it at that point.

3

this here says I assume he briefs Lieutenant General Flynn.

4

Q.

I’m assuming -- that

All right, why don’t we nail your testimony down.

Right

5

now as you sit there today -- I’m retrieving the exhibit from the

6

witness [retrieving the document from the witness].

7

Lieutenant General Flynn was paying attention to this case at some

8

point?

9

A.

Eventually, yes, sir.

10

Q.

All right.

11

A.

Initially I don’t know if he did or not.

12

Did you know

I assumed he did

on November 30th.

13

Q.

Okay.

And you assumed he did because why?

14

A.

He was the Commanding General, sir.

15

Q.

Any other reason?

16

A.

No, sir.

He was the Commanding General.

And at that point

17

-- you know -- a weekly report doesn’t get generated on every

18

prisoner every week.

19

And I’m -- at that point I’m just going through the chain of command,

20

and I assumed it went to General Flynn.

21
22
23

Q.

Okay.

And I knew that it went out to the battalion.

So then Major General Ary also is somebody that you

know is paying attention to the case, correct?
A

He came down to -- he came down to visit winter time

4317

08204

1

sometime, sir.

2

Q.

He actually came down and had a tour of the brig?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And that wasn’t just because he felt like being there,

5

right?

6

A.

No, sir.

7

Q.

It was because of PFC Manning?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And you actually sat down and had lunch with him?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

You actually had a lot of high profile people come through

12

the brig at that time?

13

A.

Yes, sir, over the months.

14

Q.

And you understood, again, that Lieutenant General Flynn

15

needed to be in the know with regards to anything concerning PFC

16

Manning’s confinement?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

In fact, you sent Master Sergeant Papakie that email that

19

we just discussed because you didn’t want the command to be

20

blindsided by the fact that somehow the defense counsel knew

21

information that you thought I shouldn’t know?

22

A.

Correct, sir.

23

Q.

Now you were PFC Manning’s counselor, right?

4318

08205

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And under the SECNAV Instruction a counselor is required to

3

be an E5 and above?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

The counselor’s required to complete specialized training

6

designed for correctional counselors?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And you completed that training I imagine?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

What sort of things did they teach you at the training that

11

you went to?

12

A.

Just different ways to talk to prisoners, sir.

The

13

administrative requirements -- just different ways to talk with

14

different personality types -- different prisoners; ways to deal with

15

prisoners.

16

somebody’s being combative; how to talk them down.

17
18

Q.

If somebody’s not talking to you; talk to them.

So a lot of just how to talk to prisoners, that’s all they

taught you?

19

A.

20

instruction.

21

Q.

22
23

If

prisoners?
A.

Sir, this is back in 2003.

I don’t remember the program of

What -- what things pop to mind other than how to talk to
What else did they teach you?
The administrative requirements, sir.

4319

That’s what pops in

08206

1

mind, sir.

2
3

Q.

Did they also teach you how to, you know, maybe spot

detainees that needed some help?

4

A.

I’m sure they did, sir.

5

Q.

And things you should do if you thought a detainee needed

7

A.

I’m sure they do, but I don’t remember specifically, sir.

8

Q.

You don’t recall that now as you sit there?

9

A.

No, sir.

Q.

Well I’m sure you would agree with me that under the SECNAV

6

10
11

help?

I mean, I’m talking about a school I went to in

2003.

12

Instruction the goal of a counselor is to assist a detainee in the

13

program development, correct?

14

A.

That sounds about right, sir.

15

Q.

And basically under the SECNAV Instruction a counselor is

16

supposed to develop both specific short term goals and long term

17

goals for a detainee?

18
19
20
21

A.

Correct, sir.

If it says that in the SECNAV, that is

something that happens.
Q.

And that’s what your understanding of what a counselor

should do?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

In order to accomplish these requirements a counselor

4320

08207

1

basically meets with an individual detainee at least weekly?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

Now you’re also supposed to include feedback that you

4

receive from other brig personnel regarding their observations of

5

somebody you’re a counselor for, correct?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean that’s -- we talk to each other, sir.

7

Q.

And even though you get feedback from other people, you’d

8

agree with me that a counselor at a brig is probably the person who

9

knows the detainee better than anyone else?

10

A.

No, sir.

11

Q.

You wouldn’t think so?

12

A.

No, sir.

13

Q.

And why is that?

14

A.

Because the counselor sees him at least weekly --

15

Q.

Right.

16

A.

-- sometimes more.

17
18
19

and night.
Q.

So you -- as you sit there now you’d think the guard staff

would know a detainee better than the counselor?

20

A.

21

I would, sir.

22

Q.

23

But the guard staff are with him day

They’re going to know how he acts day and night better than

So if -- if individual guards came forward and said they

didn’t see anything out of the ordinary with PFC Manning, that he

4321

08208

1

acted pretty much normal for anybody that was in MAX custody, you

2

would say that they would know better than you?

3

A.

It depends on what they’re saying, sir.

4

Q.

That’s what they’re saying.

I mean ----

So if that’s what they said,

5

would you say that those guards would know Detainee Manning better

6

than you as a counselor?

7
8
9

A.

They know his behavior while he’s in the housing area

better than I do because I’m not there in the housing area.
Q.

Okay.

And I thought you said that individual guards would

10

know the detainee better than the counselor because they see him more

11

often?

12
13

A.

They’re going to know his behavior better.

They’re going -

- if I meet with somebody once a week, say a half hour --

14

Q.

Right.

15

A.

-- once a week, it’s not hard for somebody to act a certain

16

way that’s with me once a week.

But then they go back to their

17

housing area and they go back to -- if they were acting for me -- go

18

back to their normal conduct.

I wouldn’t see that.

19

Q.

Okay, so ----

20

A.

Sir, what I know is what I see that 30 minutes once a week,

21
22
23

let’s just say.
Q.

So if we are -- all things being equal, if we are, in fact,

hearing different accounts from different people, then you would

4322

08209

1

think as you sit there now, that the guards who saw him during the

2

day would be the most reliable source of information just from the

3

amount of time they get to spend with the detainee?

4
5
6

A.

Not always, sir.

They’d be a good source of information;

not the most reliable.
Q.

Well, I’m just trying to pin it down because you said that

7

a detainee can be any way, you know, for a half hour or so that they

8

want to be with you.

9

A.

They can be.

10

Q.

And I thought what you were saying is when the detainee is

11

back in their cell and they’re basically being observed for the rest

12

of the 23 hours, it’s kind of hard to maintain that acting role,

13

right?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And so the individual guards who were seeing him for all

16

that time period, they would be the ones who’d probably see him and

17

be able to judge, yeah, this is the way the guy is?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

But -- I mean we’re talking about -- we’re

19

talking about -- it depends on the prisoner.

20

you can talk about any prisoner you want.

21

guards will know better than then counselor, or the counselor will

22

know better than the guards.

23

Q.

So that’s your testimony now.

4323

I mean, there’s no --

There’s no set -- the

So now it all depends on the

08210

1
2
3
4

detainee, and it’s not necessarily the counselor knows ---A.

It’s going to be different for everybody, sir.

He might

not act different for anybody.
Q.

Okay.

So as you sit there now just so I know your

5

testimony, who do you think would know the detainee the best on

6

average out of the brig staff?

7
8
9

A.

Talking him as a personality?

Him as his conduct -- his

behavior?
Q.

I’m talking -- you take any detainee, who would you say on

10

the brig staff would know the detainee on average -- if you said, in

11

general I’d say that this is the person you’d want to go to.

12

have probably the best source of information.

13

on as being the source of the most reliable information?

14
15
16
17
18
19

A.

They

So who would you focus

It really depends on that detainee, sir.

I mean you can

talk about one prisoner ---Q.
general.
A.

Take out the depending on the detainee.

I’m saying in

So we’re not talking specifics.
You can never -- you can never point to just one billet or

one person.

20

Q.

You can’t?

21

A.

No, sir.

There might be a prisoner that feels real

22

comfortable speaking with the brig supervisor more than anybody, and

23

the brig supervisor may know him ----

4324

08211

1

Q.

You’re getting specifics on me now again.

2

in general.

3

best source.

4

psychiatrist.

5

A.

6
7

I’m just saying

Like in general I would go maybe to the guards as the
Or in general I would go maybe to the brig

In general you’d go to everybody, sir, and get a full

picture.
Q.

Okay.

I’ll go at this one more time and then I’ll give up

8

asking this question.

9

who would you go to in general to say that this would be the best

10
11
12
13
14

If you had to go to one person on the staff,

source of information?
A.

It’s going to depend on that specific detainee that you’re

going to talk about, sir.
Q.

All right. I’ll give up on that question.

Okay, so you

were there when PFC Manning was in-processed, correct?

15

A.

No, sir.

16

Q.

You weren’t?

17

A.

When he was actually received -- when he walked into the

18

door for the first time?

19

Q.

Right.

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

You weren’t part of the in-processing and took -- and did

22
23

the initial counseling with him when he came in on the 29th?
A.

Initial counseling happens the following day, sir.

4325

08212

1

Q.

Okay, so you say the first time you saw him was on the

3

A.

Yes, sir, that I remember.

4

Q.

All right, do you recall what time he came in?

5

A.

It was evening time, sir.

6

Q.

What time was that?

7

A.

Eating time, sir.

8

Q.

Eating time?

9

A.

Evening.

10

Q.

Evening?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Okay, I thought you said eating time.

13

A.

No, no, evening time, sir.

14

Q.

And in general what time period would you say that might

16

A.

After evening chow, sir.

17

[Pause]

18

Q.

The initial custody classification form --

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

-- at what stage in the process is that filled out by the

2

15

30th?
Yes, sir.

be?

21

detainee and the individual that’s doing it when they come in for

22

their initial processing?

23

A.

Once they’re -- initial contact, sir.

4326

So before they’re

08213

1

ever even -- gears even done, before they ever make it down to the

2

housing area, it’s -- it’s truly the initial contact, sir.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right, so I’m handing you what’s been

4

marked Appellate Exhibit 435 Charlie [handing the document to the

5

witness].

6
7

Q.

that’s filled out when -- when a detainee comes?

8
9
10

A.

It’s part of the initial entire package, sir.

What order

the PBS fills out -- which piece of paper, I’m not sure, but this is
part of the original package.

11
12

And as you look at that -- that -- is that the first thing

Q.

Okay.

And can you turn to the second page and see is there

a time period when the form is filled out?

13

A.

[Looking at the document] 2200, sir.

14

Q.

And from you experience would 2200 then reflect probably a

15

pretty accurate time of generally when PFC Manning arrived at the

16

brig?

17

A.

Yes, sir, he probably arrived within 60 minutes of that

18

time.

19

he’s accepted.

20
21
22
23

I mean, the confinement order’s going to say the exact time
But it’s -- that’s close.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving Appellate Exhibit 435 Charlie

from the witness [retrieving the document from the witness].
Q.

So with regards to your interview of him, do you remember

specifically doing an interview and asking him about the nooses in

4327

08214

1

Kuwait?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

When you asked PFC Manning about the nooses he didn’t

4

immediately say anything to you, right?

5
6

A.

No, sir.

He answered the question.

I asked him about one

noose.

7

Q.

All right, but you actually asked him about the nooses, he

8

didn’t respond, and you said that he looked at you.

9

words you said he looked at you all retarded.

10

And in your

Do you recall saying

that?

11

A.

Probably, sir.

12

Q.

And by “all retarded” what did you mean?

13

A.

Just like dumbfounded -- doesn’t -- doesn’t know what I’m

14
15
16
17

I mean that -- I very well may have.

talking about.
Q.

And, in fact, didn’t PFC Manning ask you what you were

talking about at that point?
A.

He -- because I said a bed sheet.

18

make any noose out of a bed sheet.

19

of sandbag ties.

20

Q.

And he said I didn’t

And then he said he made it out

I don’t remember his quote, but.

Okay, and to your recollection then when he said he didn’t

21

make a noose out of a bed sheet, he made it out of sandbag ties,

22

that’s when you believe no one in their right mind confuses a bed

23

sheet with sandbag ties, correct?

4328

08215

1

A.

Correct, sir.

2

Q.

And you were thinking that at that point he must have made

3

two nooses then?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And right from the beginning you -- for you that was a red

6

flag that was raised?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

For the first couple of weeks nothing was changing because

9
10

not only how he was received on suicide risk but also because of this
comment to you, correct?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And then the always planning, never acting comment that he

13

wrote on his intake --

14

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

15

Q.

-- is that correct?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Those things weighed heavily on your mind?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And you indicated on direct at least that you asked him

20

about the always planning, never acting?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And I note and we’ll go through a lot of your observation

23

and evaluation notes and the other documents, but that’s not

4329

08216

1
2
3
4

documented anywhere.
A.

Can you tell me why?

Because I don’t document every -- every question I ask and

every answer I receive, sir.
Q.

But wouldn’t you agree with me just as a general

5

proposition that this isn’t your typical question?

6

kind of a big point here, wouldn’t you agree?

I mean this is

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

So if a detainee I think as you said on direct that when

9
10

they do something like this, you know, you don’t take it as sarcasm,
right?

11

A.

Correct, sir, I don’t interpret sarcasm.

12

Q.

It’s not a joke?

13

A.

No, sir.

14

Q.

All right, so then when he says always planning, never

15

acting, you would agree with me that that from a counselor’s

16

standpoint is a big comment?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And so when you talked to him -- you said on direct -- he

19
20

did what when you talked to him about that?
A.

I asked him what he meant by that or what that means -- I

21

can’t remember the quotes.

I don’t remember his quote and his

22

answer, but basically it was what it says, he’s just planned by he’s

23

never acted.

He’s never actually attempted suicide.

4330

08217

1

Q.

And that’s what you said he told you?

2

A.

Yes, sir, words to that effect.

3

Q.

And so I guess if someone -- if that’s true and he tells

4

you, hey, I’ve been planning, I’ve just never acting, did you follow

5

up on that by saying what do you mean by planning?

6

doing?

7

A.

What you been

What’cha thinking about?
I probably ask him did he ever -- did you make a plan -- if

8

you made a plan was -- was it a plan of I’m going to kill myself or

9

did I come up with a method --

10

Q.

Right.

11

A.

-- words to that -- words to -- that was probably part of

12
13
14

the conversation, sir.
Q.

I can’t remember specifically.

And if he’s saying always planning, did you -- did you then

say, well, are you planning now?

Did you ask him that question?

15

A.

I may have, but I don’t remember specifically, sir.

16

Q.

You don’t remember asking that?

17

A.

Not specifically, no, sir.

18
19

I remember asking him if he was

currently suicidal.
Q.

But I’m -- sticking on this statement, if someone’s saying

20

always planning, wouldn’t that be something you’d want to know if

21

they’re planning currently?

22

A.

Probably, sir.

23

Q.

And wouldn’t you want to document it if they said yes, and

4331

08218

1
2

then what they’re planning and how they’re planning to do things?
A.

What I would document is if he’s currently -- if I -- when

3

I asked him if he’s currently -- are you suicidal right now?

4

what I would document.

5
6

Q.

That’s

All right, but you wouldn’t document him responding yes,

I’m always planning and even planning right now?

7

A.

Depends on how I’m writing, sir.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

moment.

I mean, when I’m writing.

So let’s -- let’s go to your weekly reports for a

One of your requirement -- requirements was to write up a

10

weekly observation and evaluation note or notes on your meetings with

11

PFC Manning, correct?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And this was called by what you told me “The Manning

14

Report”?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Information in your reports was -- and from your session

17
18
19

then was from talking to PFC Manning, correct?
A.

Yes, sir.

The report evolved as time went on.

But --

yeah, it would -- my interactions with him would be in there.

20

Q.

And you would also obtain information from the brig guard?

21

A.

Yes, sir, any kind of documentation that was there --

22

interaction with the staff -- I’d just walk down -- the guys posted

23

in special quarter, how’s Manning been -- take a look at the logbook.

4332

08219

1

Q.

And you’d record any information you got?

2

A.

Anything noteworthy, sir.

Anything that’s listed in the

3

logbook I’d put in there.

4

yeah, he’s -- you know, he’s been fine.

5

fine.

6

like that.

7

I wouldn’t -- I mean, if they’re like,
I’m wouldn’t write he’s been

I’d just write there’s like no unusual occurrence or something

Q.

Okay.

And then you -- you would take all those

8

observations and you’d put them into a -- your weekly observation and

9

evaluation notes, the general format, but then that would be put into

10

a weekly report that Chief Averhart and subsequently Chief Barnes

11

would forward up the chain of command, right?

12

A.

Eventually, sir, that’s not how the report started

13

initially -- because this report started before the logbook came

14

around.

15

Q.

16

reports ----

17

A.

Correct, sir ----

18

Q.

---- up the chain of command started ----

19

A.

---- when ----

20

Q.

---- on the 10th of August, right?

21

A.

---- the weekly report began even before anybody knew he

But -- so the report evolved.
I’m sorry, you confused me there.

You know, the weekly

22

was doing these odd -- odd behaviors.

23

wouldn’t be in the very first few weekly reports.

4333

So those odd behaviors

08220

1

Q.

I’m not asking about odd behaviors.

I’m just -- simply

2

saying once you did your eval’ with PFC Manning, you got whatever

3

information from the other brig staff, that would be put into the

4

weekly report that Chief Averhart would forward up the chain of

5

command?

6

A.

Yes, sir, but the report evolved as time went on.

7

Q.

Okay.

8

So in any event then, once that report went up from

Chief Averhart, it went to Colonel Oltman?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And then from Colonel Oltman to Colonel Choike, the Base

11

Commander?

12

A.

I’m assuming at that point, yes, sir.

13

Q.

And when -- we know -- actually you knew that from your

14

email, where you assumed was that it was going from Colonel Choike to

15

General Flynn, correct?

16
17
18
19

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean, once it go to the powers to be I didn’t

really -- I don’t know where the thing went.
Q.

And you also told me -- told me that you assumed that it

was going up to Headquarters Marine Corps or the Pentagon?

20

A.

I assume so, sir.

21

Q.

And that’s what you assumed, right?

22

A.

Yes, sir, I mean who -- who -- who knows where this damn

23

I mean I ----

thing was going.

4334

08221

1

Q.

Well the reason why you believed it was going up to

2

Headquarter Marine Corps or the Pentagon was because based upon the

3

word that you were receiving -- that was coming down?

4

A.

Probably, sir.

5

Q.

And you also knew it was going up to the higher ups based

6
7
8

I don’t really remember, but.

upon the visits that you were receiving at the brig, correct?
A.

Yes, sir.

I mean, they weren’t showing up just because

they wanted to.

9

Q.

Right.

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

From the IG?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Yeah, and you said -- you told me that these people don’t

14

These were visits from Headquarters Marine Corps?

Later on in the months, yes, sir.

show up just for the hell of it, right?

15

A.

No, they don’t serve in the camp, but they -- they don’t.

16

Q.

And so this was unusual to see these types of people

17
18
19
20
21

showing up?
A.

Yes, sir.

Not Headquarters Marine Corps.

But the IG, Mr.

Work, General Ary -- you know, that’s not normal.
Q.

And someone in your chain of command directly told you that

Lieutenant General Flynn had his eyes on the Manning case, correct?

22

A.

Probably.

23

Q.

And you also told me that other than PFC Manning you guys

4335

08222

1

never did a weekly report that you would forward up on a detainee?

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

So Manning was the only one that this would have happened?

4

A.

For a weekly?

5
6

Yes, sir.

There’s been progress reports

before but not -- not weekly.
Q.

Right.

Okay, so what I’d like to do now is go through some

7

of your weekly observations that were used and reported up the chain

8

of command, okay?

9
10

A.

Okay, sir.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right, I’m showing you Enclosure 22 to

11

Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing the document to the witness].

12

just let you hold onto the copy.

13
14

Q.

I’ll

And what I’d like to do is kind of go through a few things

with you, all right?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

All right, if you’ll turn to -- just to Page 1, this is the

17

10 August 2010 report, but this is when -- this is one of your first

18

times -- actually, it is your first time really as a counselor for of

19

PFC Manning, correct?

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And if you look at this, your notes indicate that PFC

22
23

Manning arrived, of course, on 29 July 2010?
A.

Yes, sir.

4336

08223

1
2

Q.

And from 29 July 2010 to 10 August 2010, you indicate that

PFC Manning didn’t receive any disciplinary reports?

3

A.

[Looking at the document.

4

Q.

If you’re looking for it, it carries over to Page 2.

5

No response.]
See

where it says SND did not receive any disciplinary reports?

6

A.

[Looking at the document.]

7

Q.

And you also stated he did not receive any adverse spot

8

evaluations?

9

A.

Correct, sir.

10

Q.

And you reported he received an average work and training

11

report?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

You describe PFC Manning as being quiet, but courteous and

14

respectful?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And record that “To this point in confinement, PFC

17

Manning’s conduct has been average and has presented to problems to

18

staff or inmates”?

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Correct, sir.

20

Q.

You also document that PFC Manning speaks very little

21

unless responding to a question?

22

A.

Correct, sir.

23

Q.

And even though he doesn’t speak a lot you state that he is

4337

08224

1

well spoken, neat in appearance, and maintains eye contact?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And you talked to him at this point about the types of jobs

4

that he could have if he were ever taken off of MAX and POI, correct?

5

A.

Probably, sir -- yes, sir, the library.

6

Q.

And PFC Manning did express interest in -- in perhaps

7

working in the brig library?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And you concluded from your report basically by saying that

10

PFC Manning reported to you that he didn’t have any suicidal

11

feelings?

12

A.

Correct, sir.

13

Q.

So in this first week it’s fair to say that you really

14

didn’t have any issues with PFC Manning?

15

A.

Not disciplinary, sir, no.

16

Q.

Or just issues in general?

17

A.

Naw.

18

Q.

All right, so let’s go ahead and go now to Page 4.

19

He was -- at this point there’s nothing.

the 18 August 2010 report.

20

[The witness looked at the document.]

21

Q.

22
23

This is

During this week, again, PFC Manning did not receive any

disciplinary reports?
A.

[Looking at the document] Correct, sir.

4338

08225

1

Q.

He did not receive any adverse spot evaluations?

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

He received an average work and training report?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And you describe PFC Manning as presenting no problems to

6

the staff?

7

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And you state that PFC Manning was showing signs of

9

adjusting to confinement well?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

You describe him as being well spoken, courteous, and

12

respectful?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

You also describe him as being neat in appearance and

15

maintaining eye contact?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And finally, again, you document that he’s telling you that

18

he’s not suicidal and has not been suicidal since arriving at

19

Quantico?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

So in this second week it’s fair to say no issues with PFC

22
23

Manning?
A.

Correct, sir.

4339

08226

1
2
3
4

Q.

Let’s move on to Page 7.

[The witness looked at the document.]
Q.

This is your 25 -- well, actually your 24 August 2010

report, correct?

5

A.

[Looking at the document] 25 August, sir.

6

Q.

Well that’s the report going up.

7

But you actually saw PFC

Manning on 24 August, correct?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And during this week PFC Manning did not receive any

10

disciplinary reports?

11

A.

No, sir, he never received a disciplinary report.

12

Q.

He didn’t receive any adverse spot evaluations?

13

A.

No, sir.

14

Q.

And he received an average work and training report?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And during this week you reported that PFC Manning had

17

presented -- “Presented no problems and have been courteous and

18

respectful to the staff”?

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Correct, sir.

20

Q.

You also noted that PFC Manning will answer direct

21

questions with direct answers, but says very little otherwise?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

You describe his conduct as being excellent, so much so,

4340

08227

1

that it’s apparent that he’s extremely cautious about what he says or

2

how he acts?

3

A.

Correct, sir.

4

Q.

You document that during your interview with PFC Manning,

5

he’s well-spoken and neat in appearance?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And, again, he hasn’t been suicidal -- or at lease

8

reporting that he hasn’t been suicidal and hasn’t been suicidal since

9

arriving at Quantico?

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

So this third week it’s fair to say no issues with PFC

12

Manning?

13

A.

No conduct issues, no, sir.

14

Q.

All right, let’s go to Page 10.

15

[The witness looked at the document.]

16

Q.

This is your 30 August 2010 interview report, correct?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And during this week, again, as you said no disciplinary

19
20
21

reports for PFC Manning?
A.

[Looking at the document] No, he never received a

disciplinary report.

22

Q.

No adverse spot evaluations?

23

A.

No, sir.

4341

08228

1

Q.

And now an above average work and training report?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

You -- do you recall as a counselor why he received an

4
5

above average work and training report?
A.

I can say, sir, this is -- now the third one of these that

6

we’ve gone through, and there’s three security sections that work,

7

that means the person that -- the guard that’s on duty on Sunday

8

nights does the work and training report.

9

was above average.

In this guard’s opinion he

Don’t know if he’s been anything different over

10

the last three weeks, but in this guard’s opinion, he’s above

11

average.

12
13

Q.

Okay, so -- how -- how does guard make a determination on

whether somebody’s an average, above average, below average?

14

A.

First it’s going to be has he been a discipline problem?

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

I mean, those things are documented.

But outside of that,

17

sir, I mean I can’t speak intelligently on everybody’s opinion and

18

how they form their opinion, sir.

19
20

Q.

No, I just want to understand the process.

So like if

somebody’s reported as receiving an above average, how does one ----

21

A.

Believes he’s above average?

22

Q.

Well, how does one get that if they’re a detainee at the

23

confinement facility?

Is it just one guard’s opinion or is there

4342

08229

1
2

some sort of form that’s filled out or anything like?
A.

There’s a work/training report that’s filled out.

But, I

3

mean, there’s nothing that says this -- this is above average; you

4

have to meet this criteria to be above average.

5

this criteria to be average.

6
7

Q.

And you have to meet

That was opinion.

As a counselor looking at that is that significant to you

at all -- the work and training report?

8

A.

It is.

I mean it holds its place.

9

Q.

And how so?

10

A.

I’m more concerned about negative stuff, sir, as far as,

11

you know -- if somebody gets an average, above average, excellent

12

work and training report; that’s great.

13

There’s not going to be any kind of documentation saying this guy was

14

awesome except for maybe a positive spot evaluation.

15

know, now if I’m seeing this guy’s been a discipline problem,

16

receiving disciplinary reports, that’s more of a cause for concern.

17

I don’t have to sit here and say, hey, why are you being so great?

18

have to sit here and say, hey, you’re receiving discipline reports.

19

What’s the problem?

20

Q.

I don’t have to look.

But -- you

Okay, so if someone’s doing really good; you really don’t

21

have to spend time on that, but if someone’s doing bad; that’s when

22

you have to spend some time on it?

23

A.

I don’t have to -- I don’t have to fix an issue that’s

4343

I

08230

1

making somebody good.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

A.

I don’t have to help somebody correct good behavior.

4

Q.

Right.

5

So then you report in this that PFC Manning was

courteous and respectful to the staff?

6

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And he presented to problems towards the staff?

8

A.

Correct, sir.

9

Q.

And you note that he is doing well but otherwise remains

10

quiet?

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

12

Q.

You say, again, he’s quiet because he’s basically -- he

13

only speaks if he’s spoken to first.

14

responds in short answers?

And then when he’s spoken to he

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And you report that, again, PFC Manning’s telling you he’s

17

not suicidal and has not been suicidal since arriving at Quantico?

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

So in this fourth week as his counselor any issues with PFC

20

Manning?

21

A.

No, not -- not comment wise, no.

22

Q.

Also at this time you get and you report in your counseling

23

notes that this is when Captain Hocter recommends that PFC Manning be

4344

08231

1

removed from POI status -- this is 27 August 2010, correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And you also document that the C&A board met on that same

4

day and recommended that he remain in POI?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Now up to this point I’m looking -- and I’m seeing a lot of

7

basically good behavior, no issues ----

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

---- and you have a doctor saying now that he can come off

10

of POI.

11

and POI?

Can you tell me why the board recommended keeping him on MAX

12

A.

I can tell you why I recommend it.

13

Q.

All right.

14

A.

I was getting next to no communication from him.

15

That’s --

that ----

16

Q.

Well, at this point though I don’t see anything in your

17

counseling notes that -- that says you’re really concerned about

18

that.

19

A.

Sir, me annotating that he answers questions directly,

20

remains quiet, doesn’t speak unless spoken to, that -- that’s

21

concern.

22
23

Q.

I mean I ---So if I’m the -- if I’m the Brig Commander and I’m looking

at your evaluation notes, I look at that and I see, oh, that’s a

4345

08232

1

reason why we need to be concerned because he’s quiet and speaks when

2

spoke to?

3

A.

No, sir.

I’m making my recommendation at this point.

And

4

-- so at this point, again, he has his history like the whole --

5

Kuwait; made the noose, always planning, never acting -- just when I

6

say the history I’m talking about these types of things.

7
8

Q.

But now you -- you said you had problems communicating with

him ----

9

A.

Correct, sir.

10

Q.

---- so wouldn’t you agree with me that as the counselor

11

that’s a problem?

If you think that’s a problem that that should be

12

in your evaluation notes?

13

A.

It could be, sir.

14

Q.

No -- but I’m not saying could be.

15

I mean, that depends on ---I’m saying would you

agree with me that should be?

16

A.

No, I wouldn’t agree with you, sir.

17

Q.

And why not?

18

A.

Because there’s nothing saying what has to go in this

19

report.

20

Q.

Well I’m not saying anything has to.

I’m just saying you,

21

as a counselor, wouldn’t you think that if you believed that I’m not

22

establishing rapport with this guy that that would be something you

23

would put in your counselor’s notes?

4346

08233

1

A.

Sir, if I -- if I -- if I -- if I didn’t put it in the

2

report it was either because I didn’t think -- I either didn’t think

3

to put it in there, I didn’t think I needed to put it in there, and I

4

wasn’t required to put it in there.

5

Q.

That’s your answer?

6

A.

That’s my answer, sir.

7

Q.

Okay.

8
9
10

So then -- let’s go ahead, I guess, and move on Page

13.
[The witness looked through the document.]
Q.

This is your 7 September 2010 report.

During this week,

11

again, no disciplinary reports, no adverse spot evaluations, and an

12

average work and training report, correct?

13

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And, again, you note that he’s doing well but remained

15

quiet?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And you also noted that he continues to be very short and

18

direct with responses when speaking with staff?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

You also indicate that he started reading during the day to

21

pass the time, but only educational books, correct?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And also you note that on 3 September he was evaluated by a

4347

08234

1

brig psychiatrist and recommended to be removed from POI?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And the board met that same day and recommended that he

4

remain on POI?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

You state that he “Continues to be cooperative with brig

7

staff and presents no disciplinary issues”?

8

A.

Correct, sir -- disciplinary problems.

9

Q.

And you also said that he’s well-spoken and neat in

10

appearance?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Then here you say his mood and appearance were consistent

13

with his normal character?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

So at this point when you’ve had now a little over a month

16

and -- and a few days to evaluate him, is it possible that you’re

17

just looking at a guy who’s just a quiet guy?

18

A.

It is possible, but that’s not how I felt, sir.

19

Q.

Is it possible that you’re looking at a guy that’s quiet

20

when he is talking to individuals that he perceives as staff as

21

opposed to friends?

22
23

A.

It’s possible, sir, and maybe what it was, but I still

wasn’t getting -- it didn’t seem right.

4348

08235

1

Q.

And why didn’t it seem right to you at this point?

2

A.

Because, sir -- Manning, how are you doing?

3

Sergeant [speaking very quickly].

4

very quickly].

5

Just -- it’s not the feeling I got when he answered.

6

Q.

Yes, Gunnery

No, Gunnery Sergeant [speaking

Aye, aye, Gunnery Sergeant [speaking very quickly].

Well what type of response to -- I mean you’re talking

7

about various things -- we’ll get to some of the longer conversations

8

you had with him once you got into a topic that he wanted to talk

9

about, but what are you getting from him or not getting from him that

10

you’re getting from other detainees?

11

A.

Usually if you get somebody who’s just shy, quiet, just

12

doesn’t want to -- oh, I’m doing good [speaking in a calm submissive

13

voice].

No, okay, Gunnery Sergeant [speaking in calm submissive

14

voice].

Like it seemed just so hurry up, answer your questions, go

15

on.

16

Q.

Why would you say here is mood and ----

17

A.

Like -- like -- not just ----

18

Q.

---- appearance were consistent ----

19

A.

---- I’m not communicating; I don’t want to communicate.

20

Q.

---- Gunny Sergeant, why would you -- excuse me, Master

21

Sergeant, why would you state that his mood and appearance were

22

consistent with his normal character then?

23

A.

Because he never communicated with me, and he still hasn’t

4349

08236

1

communicated with me at that point.

2

questions, that was what he was normally doing.

3

down there and I talked to him, short direct questions -- that’s it.

4

Answer the question that was asked and that’s it.

5
6

Q.

A.

8

quickly]?

9

okay?

11
12

Normally if I went

And give me an example of that in a -- that exchange.

So

what you say and then what PFC Manning says back to you.

7

10

Outside of direct answers and

Did you receive a command visit last week [speaking very
Yes, Gunnery Sergeant [speaking very quickly].

You doing

Good, Gunnery Sergeant [speaking very quickly].
Q.

And now stop.

What did you want him to say?

What do you

think that you -- he should be saying to you?
A.

Well it’s the way it’s said, too.

You know -- Battery

13

command visit last week [speaking in a slower calmer voice].

14

know -- they came.

15

care of?

16

Sometimes they say who came and saw them.

17

know if he got a visit the week before this one or not, oh, yeah, my

18

mom came to visit me or whatever -- a little bit more elaboration.

19

Not just -- I’m answering your question -- short direct, hurry up and

20

move on [speaking quickly].

Hey, they take care of you?

You

Everything taken

Oh, I’m fine, you know [speaking in a calm voice].
Or, yeah, I got -- I don’t

21

Q.

All right, so he wasn’t ----

22

A.

No -- no content to the conversation.

23

Q.

---- if he had a little more elaboration then you -- that

4350

08237

1

was something you were looking for?

2

A.

If he engaged in a discussion, yes, sir.

3

Q.

Okay, so let’s look at Page 16 of 109.

4
5

[The witness looked through the documents.]
Q.

This is your 14 September report.

Here you indicate that

6

PFC Manning was visited by his father that weekend.

7

his relationship with his father as being distant?

And he described

8

A.

[Looking at the document.] Yes, sir.

9

Q.

So he’s talking to you apparently about his relationship

10

with his father?

11

A.

A little bit, yes, sir.

12

Q.

And then he also tells you about the fact that he learned

13

that his grandmother passed away?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

So he’s talking to you about family issues?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Now just as other times, no adverse spot evaluations, no

18

disciplinary reports, and average work and training reports, correct?

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And you said everything’s going well with him but, again,

21

he remains quiet?

22

A.

Correct, sir.

23

Q.

He was very short and direct with his responses and didn’t

4351

08238

1

initiate conversation with you?

2

A.

Correct, sir.

3

Q.

He told you that he had been reading a little more, but not

4

much, and prefers actually watching the television -- the news?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

You reported that he had been cooperative with the brig

7

staff and presented no disciplinary or behavioral problems?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

You said when he’s observed in his cell he’s always sitting

10

quietly on his rack?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

When he spoke to you he was well-spoken and neat in

13

appearance?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

You said his mood and appearance were consistent with his

16

normal character?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Again, nothing out of the ordinary?

19

A.

He’s starting to talk to me a little bit more.

20
21
22
23

But as far

as conduct, no, he’s not.
Q.

And during this week, again, he continues to state that

he’s not suicidal?
A.

Yes, sir.

4352

08239

1
2

Q.

And you document that he was seen by Captain Hocter on 10

September?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And based upon that you document that Captain Hocter

5

recommended, again, to remove him from POI?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And that same day the C&A board decided that PFC Manning

8

should remain in POI?

9

A.

Correct, sir.

10

Q.

Let’s move to your 20 September.

11

[The witness looked through the document.]

12

Q.

13

This is on Page 19.

During this time PFC Manning tells you he had two visitors

during the week?

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And I apologize.

16

Actually let’s just go ahead and skip to

Page 22.

17

[The witness looked through the document.]

18

Q.

On this -- this is your 27 September evaluation?

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And, again, PFC Manning talks about his aunt and how she’s

21

doing based upon the passing of his grandmother?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

He doesn’t receive any adverse spot evaluations,

4353

08240

1

disciplinary reports, and receives and average work and training

2

report, correct?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Again, everything’s fine.

5

He’s just, again, remaining

quiet?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

You say he continues to be very short and direct with his

8

responses --

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

-- and doesn’t initiate conversation?

11

A.

Correct, sir.

12

Q.

But he did talk to you about a dental visit that he wanted

13

to schedule?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And when he did speak to you, you said he was well-spoken

16

and neat in appearance?

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

18

Q.

You said his mood and appearance were consistent with his

19

normal character?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And he continues to state that he’s no suicidal?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

He was saw -- was seen by Captain Hocter on that -- on 24

4354

08241

1

September, correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And recommended to be removed from POI?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And on that same day you recommended that he remain on POI?

6

A.

Correct, sir.

7

Q.

Let’s go to Page 25.

8

[The witness looked through the document.]

9

Q.

10

This is your 6 October 2010 -- or actually your 4 October

2010 with the report, correct?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And just like all the other ones; no adverse spot

13

evaluations, no disciplinary reports, and an average work and

14

training report?

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

16

Q.

He told you that he was doing well and had begun another

17

book to read?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

You say that PFC Manning did not initiate conversation and

20

continued to use short answers?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

You also reported that he appears to content with his

23

situation and goes through the motions of the brig’s plan of the day

4355

08242

1

without incident?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

When he speaks to you he’s well-spoken, neat in appearance

4

and maintains good eye contact?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Again, you document that his mood and appearance were

7

consistent with his normal character?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

He continues to state that he’s not suicidal?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And is reviewed on 1 October by Doctor Hocter, and

12

recommended to be removed from POI?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And the board recommended that he remain on POI?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Now go to Page 28.

17

[The witness looked through the document.]

18

Q.

This is your 12 October 2010 report?

19

A.

[Looking through the document.

20

Q.

Is that correct?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And like others, no adverse spot evaluations, no

23

No response.]

disciplinary reports, and average work and training report?

4356

08243

1

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Again, PFC Manning’s doing well, but otherwise remains

3

quiet?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

You said he doesn’t show interest in having anything more

6

than brief conversations with you?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

But he remains courteous and respectful to you and the

9
10
11
12
13

staff?
A.

Yes, sir, and appears to want minimal contact with the

staff as well.
Q.

Right.

You document that he wants minimal contact with the

faculty staff and otherwise wants to be left to himself?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

You report that he’s well-spoken and neat in appearance?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And you state that his mood and appearance were consistent

18

with his normal character?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Continues to state that he’s not suicidal?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And there was no mental health evaluation that week,

23

correct?

4357

08244

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And so the -- on 8 October the board just recommended that

3

he remain on POI?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

Let’s go to Page 31.

6

[The witness looked at the document.]

7

Q.

This is your 19 October 2010 report?

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Again, no adverse spot evaluations, no disciplinary

10

reports, and an average work and training report?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Again, you say he’s doing well but just remains quiet?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And to provoke conversation, you ask him about mythological

15

creatures at this point?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And once the subject is brought up, you say the dialog was

18

a normal conversation?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And the dialog evolved into a conversation about the

21

evolution of man and man’s use of the brain?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And the dialog evolving into that conversation was

4358

08245

1

precipitated by PFC Manning?

2

A.

Say again, sir?

3

Q.

Yes.

When -- PFC Manning was the one who had the

4

conversation evolved from the mythological creatures to talking about

5

man’s evolution and the use of his brain?

6
7
8
9

A.

I don’t know how we got to that subject, sir, but it -- I

mean, it was a back and forth conversation.
Q.

Okay.

And you would agree with me at this point now that

PFC Manning is a pretty intelligent young man?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And that his main focus, you probably would know at this

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19

point, is computers -- that’s what he -- his main interest is?
A.

I’m not sure if we talked about that at this point or not,

but I may have.
Q.

Were you aware of the fact that he knew a lot about

computers?
A.

Yes, sir.

How much we talked about it I don’t know.

But

I’m sure I did.
Q.

And, in fact, on direct you said that whenever you guys had

20

the conversation on computers you couldn’t -- you couldn’t talk

21

intelligently about it?

22

A.

No, sir, who knows -- not a conversation to have.

23

Q.

Right.

So he had -- he had interests that you did not

4359

08246

1

have, correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

Now you say -- and I just want to take it up right now to

4

see why you felt that way, but you said that your ability to have a

5

conversation with PFC Manning -- the only person worse than that was

6

somebody that you had on death row, is that correct?

7

A.

Yes, sir, getting him to talk to me.

8

Q.

So your testimony here today is it’s a guy that’s been

9
10
11
12
13

Yes, sir.

there for 10 years, and then PFC Manning as the two people that you
had the worse type of conversations with?
A.

Not the worst type of conversation; hardest to get them to

start talking to me.
Q.

Okay, so for the death row guy you got his trust by

14

removing the restraints, and within four to five weeks you were able

15

to apparently have conversations with him?

16

A.

It was four or five weeks into it and then when I had the

17

restraints removed.

Not I removed the restraints and four or five

18

weeks later he started talking to me.

Other way around.

19

Q.

Okay, so ----

20

A.

After about four of five weeks of him, zero, not wanting to

21

communicate with me -- here’s my answer -- you know, I talked as much

22

as I want, but I’m not going to talk to you, pal.

23

Q.

Right.

4360

08247

1
2

A.

You know, finally, when we sat down and we talked or

whatever, I told the guards, hey, take these restraints off.

3

Q.

And then he started opening up to you?

4

A.

Not at that moment, but a little bit better.

5

I could

definitely see he was a lot more comfortable.

6

Q.

Okay.

And so you’ve got this guy on death row, 10 years,

7

and then you’ve PFC Manning, and I imagine if PFC Manning must have

8

been then the exception for -- from any other detainee as far as

9

having the ability to speak to him, right?

10
11

A.

He -- he -- he’s definitely the hardest to get

into a discussion with.

12
13

Yes, sir.

Q.

So why isn’t that documented in any of your observation and

evaluation notes?

14

A.

I didn’t think to write that down, sir.

15

Q.

You didn’t think to write something down as important as,

16

you know, next to a death row guy, this is the guy that I’ve had the

17

worst ability to break, you know, down his fences or break into a

18

conversation with?

19

A.

No, sir.

20

Q.

That was not important enough to write down for you?

21

A.

I didn’t think to write it down.

22

important?

23

down?

Sure it was important.

You know, was it

Does it require me to write that

No, it’s not required for me to write it down.

4361

I just didn’t

08248

1

put it down.

2

Q.

Okay.

All right, so at the end of this conversation

3

apparently you give him a copy -- and you testified to this on direct

4

-- the “Alligator River” story?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Why’d you choose this story?

7

A.

It usually provokes conversation, sir.

8

Q.

This story’s about values, right?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

It’s basically about a paragraph long and it’s about ----

11

A.

A lady trying to cross the river; nobody will help her.

12

Q.

---- right?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

This woman wants to cross the river to see the person she

15

loves, right?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

17

Q.

And no one’s going to help her but one person?

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

And that one person wants something from her?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And that is basically to -- to sleep with her, correct?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And she goes ahead and engages in that conduct in order to

4362

08249

1

get across the river to see the person she loves.

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

Once she gets there that person finds out what she did and

4

decides I don’t want to have anything to do with you?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And then that person then beats up the person that slept

7
8
9
10
11

with her, right?
A.

It’s been a while since I read it, but that sounds pretty -

- pretty close, yes, sir.
Q.

And essentially what happens is every character has done

something wrong, is that correct?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And then you’re asked to basically rank the characters from

14

most likable to least likable?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And the whole thing is basically a paragraph long?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18
19

So you engage in a conversation with PFC Manning

about that?
A.

I don’t ever remember following up with him with that -- or

20

at least getting into a conversation about what he thought about it.

21

If we did, it was a real short answer.

22

response to that was the next week.

23

Q.

I don’t remember what his

Yeah, the following week we document that where he talks

4363

08250

1

about that each of the characters and gives you his thoughts and

2

opinions on each.

3

A.

Okay.

4

Q.

But you say his responses were brief?

5

A.

I don’t remember them.

6
7
8

So they weren’t -- they don’t jump

out at me from memory, sir.
Q.

So when you choose this story, apparently -- am I correct

in assuming that you’re trying to spark conversation?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And it may be that the two of you don’t have other things

11
12
13
14

that you can talk about?
A.

At this point, no, sir, we really haven’t gotten into much

of a conversation of, you know, many things.
Q.

Have you ever had somebody that just in general, not in

15

your work relationship, but just somebody in general you didn’t have

16

a lot in common with?

17

A.

Sure they’re out there, sir, for everybody.

18

Q.

Right.

19

you don’t have much to say to them?

20

A.

21

either.

22

Q.

23

And so you don’t have much in common with them so

Correct, sir.

Exactly.

And I don’t keep trying to talk to them

Now in this situation, PFC Manning didn’t have a

choice who his counselor would be, right?

4364

08251

1
2
3

A.

He could have asked for a different one.

I mean, but no he

didn’t have an initial choice and nobody asked him who he wanted.
Q.

And if you were a computer whiz who knew a lot about

4

computers do you think your conversation might have been better with

5

PFC Manning?

6

A.

Who knows, sir, I was still a staff member.

7

Q.

Okay, let’s continue on this report.

8

You indicate that

he’s only read two books since his arrival at this point, right?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

You say that he’s respectful, courteous, and well-spoken?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And his demeanor was consistent with his normal character?

13

A.

Correct, sir.

14

Q.

He continues to state he’s no suicidal?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And you document that Captain Hocter on 15 October

17

recommends removal from POI?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And then the board says, no, keep him in POI?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

At this point are you aware of him perhaps receiving

22
23

magazine subscriptions that he might want to read?
A.

I don’t know if he was receiving it or not or if he brought

4365

08252

1

up he wanted it to come in.

But eventually, yes, he did get a

2

magazine -- like Popular Science or something -- magazine.

3

Q.

Scientific American, is that sound about right?

4

A.

That’s -- that’s probably it.

5

Q.

And have you ever looked at Scientific American?

6

A.

Just from what he showed me from walking through -- you

7

know, walking through -- if he was looking at a magazine -- he’d talk

8

about the magazine maybe or at least tried to anyway.

9
10

Q.

And you would agree with me that that magazine is something

that has kind of heavier pieces in it, correct?

11

A.

What do you mean, sir?

12

Q.

It’s not a fluff magazine.

13

A.

I’ve never read it, sir.

14

in it or not.

15

Q.

16
17
18
19

Okay.

So I don’t know if it’s got fluff

That’s because that magazine doesn’t interest you, I

guess?
A.

Sir, I ain’t got a lot of time to sit around reading

magazines.
Q.

So let’s go ahead and look at the -- Page 34.

20

27 October 2010 -- actually 25 October 2010 report.

21

[The witness looked through the document.]

22
23

Q.

This is your

Like all others; no adverse spot evaluations, no

disciplinary reports, he receives an average work and training

4366

08253

1

report, is that correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

You state that he’s doing well and everything was going

5

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And, again, you know, he talks to you about the “Alligator

7

River” story?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And then you talk about some favorite places that he would

4

10

fine?

like to travel?

11

A.

[Looking at the document.]

12

Q.

You see where it says he also -- asked him about places he

13

traveled to and where his favorite places where?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And you say he gave brief answers and didn’t appear to be

16

really interested in going in depth with you?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

But you also report that he showed minimal interest in

19

interaction and discussion with the staff and still appeared to be

20

content to be kind of left alone?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

Even though that was his general way of being, he was

23

always respectful and courteous, correct?

4367

08254

1
2

A.

Yes, sir, always stood at parade rest, always used rank,

never disrespectful.

3

Q.

And when spoken to he was well-spoken?

4

A.

Yes, sir, he didn’t slur or anything.

5

Q.

His demeanor was consistent with his normal character,

6

He spoke well.

that’s what you documented?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

He continued he was not suicidal?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And on 22 October, Doctor Hocter recommended removal from

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And on that same day the board recommended that he remain

14

on POI?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Now let’s go to Page 37.

11

17
18
19

POI?

[The witness looked through the document.]
Q.

At this point PFC Manning has been in confinement for

approximately three months, correct?

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And like all others, no adverse spot evaluations, no

22
23

disciplinary reports, an average work and training report?
A.

That’s correct, sir.

4368

08255

1
2

Q.

You say everything is doing -- he’s doing well and

everything was going fine?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And he’s still basically doesn’t have much interest in

5

engaging in conversation?

6

A.

Correct, sir.

7

Q.

And we know from the guards that they’re not going to

8

engage in conversation with him because they’re just going to tell

9

him what to do or tell him some information, correct?

10

A.

Not always, sir.

I mean, guards do speak with other

11

prisoners.

12

directions and corrections and that’s it.

13
14

Q.

Like they do speak with prisoners, it’s not just shouting

So in your experience a guard would just stop and shoot the

breeze with a detainee?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And that’s your testimony?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18
19
20

They -- the guards are -- there’s nothing wrong

with a guard having a conversation with a prisoner or detainee.
Q.

Okay, in the interview you note that PFC Manning appeared

to be in high spirits and have a positive attitude?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

You said he was respectful, courteous and well-spoken?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

4369

08256

1

Q.

And his demeanor was consistent with his normal character?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

He was not suicidal as far as what he was reporting to you?

4

A.

Correct, sir.

5

Q.

Again, Captain Hocter recommends removal from POI?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And, again, the board recommends retaining on POI?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Now let’s move to the 10 November -- actual 8 November 2010

10

report.

11

[The witness looked through the document.]

12
13

Q.

That’s on Page 40.

Like all others; no adverse spot evaluations, no

disciplinary reports, and average work and training report?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

PFC Manning reports to you that he’s doing well and has no

16

concerns at the time?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

You say he’s quiet and didn’t engage in any conversation

19

other than how he was doing?

20

A.

Correct, sir.

21

Q.

Continues to show minimal interest in interaction and

22

discussion with the staff and still appears to be content to be left

23

to himself?

4370

08257

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

You say that he was respectful, courteous, and well-spoken?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

His demeanor was consistent with his normal character?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And he continues to state to you he’s not suicidal?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

He’s evaluated at this point by Doctor Hocter -- he’s not

9

evaluated by Doctor Hocter due to a temporary absence, correct?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

But the board recommends that he remain on POI?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Now I could go through all of these as we go -- all the way

14

to the end, but you would agree with me in general that what you

15

document here PFC Manning just being basically quiet, spoken to when

16

spoken -- when asked a question, he responds relatively short in his

17

responses was his average way of being?

18

A.

At first, yes, sir, until he started talking to me probably

19

-- probably about that timeframe now; middle of October/November,

20

some timeframe like that he started talking to me more.

21
22
23

Q.

Okay, and how is he starting to talk to you more at this

point?
A.

What do you mean how’s he starting to talk to me more?

4371

08258

1
2
3

Q.

You said apparently now he’s changed.

So how’s he starting

to talk to you more?
A.

No, at this -- at this point -- this is about the same

4

timeframe where he started talking to me more.

5

exactly when, but it was around the beginning of November --

6

something like that, sir.

I don’t remember

7

Q.

How -- and how is he talking to you more?

8

A.

He’s just getting -- getting more of a conversation with

9

me, sir.

10

Q.

Can you tell us in what way has it changed?

11

A.

Well, sir, I don’t remember now.

It was just more -- it

12

was no longer more short direct quick -- I didn’t get the feeling

13

like he was just trying to hurry up, answer the questions, being as

14

courteous and respectful as possible, trying to avoid any kind of

15

correction, just trying to get me to move on my way.

16

he was more -- starting to get more comfortable with me now, talking

17

to me some more, sir.

He seemed like

I mean, I don’t remember the conversation.

18

Q.

You can’t give me an example though?

19

A.

Of a conversation, sir?

20

Q.

Of how he was more talkative?

21

A.

No, sir, he just wasn’t so short and direct.

22
23

And he --

there was dialog.
Q.

All right, so I want to talk now about your role in the C&A

4372

08259

1

board for a little bit.

2

evaluations, okay?

And we’ll come back to these observation and

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Now you indicated that you were on the C&A board for about

5
6
7
8
9

99 percent of the time really?
A.

Yes, sir.

Unless I wasn’t there I was -- I was on the

board.
Q.

So is it fair to say that during the first three and a half

months or so you were on his board just about every week?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And the C&A board recommendation, at least the very first

12

one, was on the Brig Form 4200, but until we get to January of 2011

13

it’s never documented again on a 4200, correct?

14

A.

Correct, sir.

15

Q.

And other than that date, when we get into January, where

16

you start to use a different form, we have no real documentation

17

other than the CORMIS -- the CORMIS report, correct?

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

And why is that?

20

A.

And the -- the daily change roster.

21

Q.

Why is that?

22
23

Why didn’t you have -- why didn’t you

continue to use the Brig 4200 form?
A.

Because the brig -- that brig form you’re talking about,

4373

08260

1

that was used solely for the C&A board when the duty brig supervisor

2

made a change.

3

So if I’m the duty brig supervisor and I change a prisoner’s

4

classification, whether it’s an initial confinement or someone who’s

5

been there and I change for some reason, like I said, he received a

6

disciplinary report and I put him pending investigation, that form is

7

generated because the DBS changed somebody’s custody or

8

classification.

9

to the C&A board because by order the C&A board has to review every

It’s -- it’s a classification and assignment request.

And that was the report or the form that was given

10

change in a prisoner’s custody and classification that’s made by the

11

DBS.

So that --

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

-- form.

14

wasn’t used.

15

Q.

His wasn’t changed by the DBS.

So that form

So what you’re saying is the Brig 4200 form when it notes

16

what the higher custody factors are and the lower custody factors

17

from the July 29th one, that that form would only be used if -- if

18

there was a plan to change somebody’s custody status?

19
20

A.

No, if the DBS changed somebody and the C&A board had to

review it for change.

21

Q.

All right.

22

A.

The commanding officer makes the changes.

23

If I’m the DBS

at nighttime and a guy does something and I separate him and I put

4374

08261

1

him on pending investigation, I’ve now changed his status ‘cause he

2

used to work on the -- let’s say he used to work on the mess deck.

3

now, hey, you’re no longer working on the mess deck.

4

pending investigation.

5

The commanding officer is.

6

classification.

7

to review any change the DBS makes.

8

the DBS generates saying, hey, I changed somebody’s.

9

here’s what I did.

Now you’re

The DBS isn’t the final authority on that.
So he would change -- he changed the

He sends it up to the C&A board.

The C&A board has

And then establish the form that

We’d review them.

Here you go,

Put down a thing and send it

10

up to the CO.

11

Q.

Then ----

12

MJ:

What’s the number of the form we’re discussing?

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

Q.

15
16

It’s a brig -- it’s Brig Form 4200, ma’am.

Why do you go back to that form then, 4200, and now it’s

point one, in January?
A.

I

Why in January?

Because -- at that point Chief Warrant Officer Averhart, he

17

wanted -- this form changed -- the two major changes to this form

18

over the months from the 4200 to the 4200.1 was we added all three

19

members of the C&A board’s names on there.

20

wanted -- the CO wanted us to use that for every C&A review, even if

21

it was a scheduled one ----

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

---- not just the DBS changing.

4375

And at that point they

08262

1

Q.

And why was that?

2

A.

Why did he want to change it, sir?

3

Q.

Well, yeah, why -- what sparked the interest in January to

4
5
6

all of a sudden make a change to the C&A board?
A.

I’m not exactly sure, sir.

[Pause]

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

10

If I knew the reason for that

change, I don’t remember it.

7

9

Any idea?

I’m showing the witness what’s been marked

as Appellate Exhibit 435 Delta [handing the document to the witness].
Q.

Do you recall receiving an email from Chief Averhart on 29

11

December 2010, telling you that the defense in this case was going to

12

be receiving all the brig records?

13

A.

14

line, sir.

15

got it.

16

Q.

[Looking at the document] I see I’m -- I’m on the “to”
I don’t remember receiving this email.

Exactly.

But obviously I

And 29 July 20 -- or excuse me, 29 December 2010,

17

when you’re notified that the defense was going to start to receive

18

all of the brig’s records, this also coincided with complaints by PFC

19

Manning and the defense as to his treatment, correct?

20
21

A.

I guess, sir.

I don’t really remember the complaints

started or not.

22

Q.

Do you remember the 130 -- Article 138 complaint coming in?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

I don’t remember when it did -- I -- I remember

4376

08263

1

it coming in.

2

Q.

3

And do you remember in January of 2011 when the Article 138

complaint was filed against Chief Averhart?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

Do you remember Chief Averhart asking you to help him draft

6

his response?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

A justification for why PFC Manning was in MAX and POI?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And then in January, you start using this new Brig 4200

11

It was January.

form, correct?

12

A.

Correct, sir.

13

Q.

And initially this form that you’re using doesn’t document

14

anywhere where the detainee -- I’m showing you Page 1 of Enclosure 32

15

from Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing the document to the witness].

16

Actually we’ll skip to the January one, which would be Page 2.

17

doesn’t document anywhere on this form where a detainee will make an

18

election of whether or not they want to appear or not appear before

19

the board, correct?

It

20

A.

No, sir, that change came after that change.

21

Q.

Yeah, so then as the -- as we go forward in time a little

22

bit, it isn’t until PFC Manning does appear before the board the

23

first time, so we have to go a few weeks, when PFC Manning does elect

4377

08264

1

to come before the board for the very first time on 21 January,

2

that’s the first time that there is a -- a place for an inmate to

3

choose to either appear or not appear before the board, correct?

4

A.

Correct, sir.

5

Q.

And according to the records that the government had you

6

talk about, detainees being notified of their ability to appear

7

before the board, there’s nothing about -- there’s nothing

8

documenting any detainee actually saying, no, as far as not wanting

9

to come in front of the board, correct?

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

Not until this time?

12

A.

There was no required form for it, sir.

13

Q.

Well then the only thing we can have to know that a

14

detainee’s actually receiving a notification is whatever the brig

15

might write down on some report?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Do you know why the form was changed in order to show a

18

detainee’s actual election on whether or not they wanted to appear or

19

not before the board?

20

A.

If I remember correctly, sir, and I’m pretty sure about

21

this, but I could be wrong, Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, that’s

22

about the same time she took over the brig, and she wanted that.

23

Q.

So it ----

4378

08265

1

A.

She wanted a prisoner’s signature.

And why she wanted

2

that, I’m going to speculate here, but I’m assuming the brig she came

3

from previously probably had that.

So she wanted it.

4

Q.

Did you actually talk to her about it?

5

A.

No, sir, it was -- it was an easy fix.

6

it.

7

I didn’t see any reason to argue with it.

8

idea -- it was fine.

9
10

She’s the commanding officer.

Q.

I didn’t see a problem with it.
I thought it was a good

So -- like I say, it was an easy change.

So from your testimony I take it that you said you had a

conversation about it with her, is that correct?

11

A.

12

change.

13

probably her I’m sure.

14

She said she wanted

I’m assuming so, sir.

I mean, somebody told me to make the

MJ:

It was either her or Master Sergeant Papakie.

Can I ask just a quick question here.

It was

This brig form, this

15

one that’s dated January 2011, is this something that’s created

16

internally by your brig or is it used by every brig?

17
18
19
20

WIT: Oh, no, ma’am, this is a locally generated form just to
document.
Q.

And looking at this form, if we look at Page 2 of 26, you

are the senior board member, correct?

21

A.

Correct, sir.

22

Q.

And so as the senior board member you would be the

23

individual who would fill out all the information above the actual

4379

08266

1

votes of the people, correct?

2
3

A.

Not always, sir.

5

Q.

We’ll you’re also the counselor in this case, right?

6

A.

Correct, sir.

7

Q.

So for PFC Manning’s case you would fill out all of this

4

8
9

Usually one of the counselors generated

it.

information, correct?
A.

Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn’t, sir.

It’s -- who

10

typed this stuff up and pressed print, it could have been one of my

11

counselors printing it up as far as writing or whatever, ultimately

12

that would be me, sir, like my signature and all that.

13

actually typed that and printed it, it could have been one of my

14

counselors.

15

Q.

All right.

But who

So for this thing here the recommended status;

16

the MAX and prevention of injury, this is typed before everyone shows

17

up, correct?

18

A.

19
20

Correct, sir.

That’s what we’re -- this is what he is,

this is what we’re reviewing.
Q.

Well, no, this is what he is up here on current status, and

21

this is the recommended status by you, correct, before you even get

22

to the board?

23

A.

Correct, sir.

That’s the status that we’re discussing that

4380

08267

1

day, it should be -- still be -- should he be this.

2

something else.

3

document].

4
5

Q.

This could say

This doesn’t have to match that [referring to the

Well, okay, I -- I want you to correct me if I’m wrong.

see up here current status ----

6

A.

True.

7

Q.

---- where it says -- wait -- what he’s in, MAX and

8

prevention of injury.

9

status, we see the recommended status, that means to me that that’s

10

And then when we go down to recommended to

something somebody’s recommending, right?

11

A.

Right.

12

Q.

And here it’s MAX and prevention of injury, correct?

13

A.

Correct, sir.

14

Q.

So in this instance the recommended status means -- and

15

I

that’s filled out by you?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

That means at that point that is your recommended status --

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

---- is that not correct?

21

A.

Correct, sir.

18

--

There is one of these forms that eventually

22

-- where it says recommended status, it changes -- I think it says

23

status to be reviewed just to make it clear that’s what we were

4381

08268

1

reviewing -- that’s what we’re voting on.

2

Q.

Well, we’ve had other testimony that’s not quite consistent

3

with that.

4

Are you saying that this recommended status isn’t what you’re

5

recommending before you get to the board?

6
7

A.

That’s what the counselor -- in this case, yes, this is

what I’m recommending.

8
9

So I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying.

Q.

Okay.

And that is consistent with what we heard.

So

before you get to the board then you’ve made this recommendation and

10

you’re the one who’s filling out all of the higher custody

11

classification factors and all of the ----

12

A.

Lower.

13

Q.

---- lower custody factors?

14

A.

Correct, sir.

15

Q.

You’re the one making the election on that?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

And just to clear up any confusion let’s

17

just -- we’re not talking about Manning now.

18

-

We’re talking about ---

19

Q.

Sure.

20

A.

---- Prisoner Jones -- whatever -- that recommended status

21

-- that is what the counselor thinks this guy should be.

22

Q.

Right.

23

A.

So -- and that’s -- so that’s what the board’s reviewing.

4382

08269

1

We’re voting on that.

2

Q.

Right.

So you as the senior board member and the counselor

3

going into it, the other two members in this case; Staff Sergeant

4

Jordan and Staff Sergeant Lee, already know what your recommendation

5

is?

6
7
8
9

A.

Yes, sir, they -- they have to.

They don’t know what to

vote on if they don’t know that the counselor’s recommending.
Q.

Right.

So one of the three members already has made up

their mind?

10

A.

Yes, me.

11

Q.

Have you ever had a situation where you recommended a

12

status here as the senior board member and yet -- then went against

13

your recommended status?

14
15

A.

Where I recommended the status and I went against my

recommendation, sir?

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

No, I don’t think so, sir.

18

Q.

I wouldn’t either.

Okay.

So -- so then at this point, if

19

I understand the process -- and I’m retrieving Appellate Exhibit 435

20

Delta from the witness, and also Enclosure 22 from Appellate Exhibit

21

259 from the witness [retrieving the documents from the witness].

22

at this point, if I understand the process correctly, you as the

23

senior board member has already looked at everything, you’ve made

4383

So

08270

1

your recommended status, you meet somewhere, usually in your office,

2

right?

3

A.

As long as the prisoner doesn’t appear, yes, sir.

4

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

Rarely, sir.

7

Q.

A very rare occurrence?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And so then what happens is you hand the packet to the next

5

10
11

part?

A.

Correct, sir.

package.

13

people can sign.

15

I mean it’s rare.

senior member?

12

14

And detainees never appear, correct, for the most

Q.

Somebody briefs it -- briefs the whole

Then -- I mean, ultimately, yes, it gets passed on so

And the way it gets passed around is it gets passed to the

next senior member for that person to review?

16

A.

Correct, sir.

17

Q.

And then it gets passed to the junior person for that

18

person to review?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Then you guys talk about it for a second?

21

A.

We probably talked about it before we started passing it

22

around, sir.

23

Q.

I mean we ----

At some point you talk about it?

4384

08271

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And that whole process might be anywhere from 10 minutes up

3
4
5

The whole thing is briefed.

to 30 minutes?
A.

It really depends on how many people and what it is we’re

discussing, sir.

6

Q.

Per detainee; 10 to 30 minutes would you say?

7

A.

No, no, some of them aren’t 10 minutes at all.

8

I mean,

some of them are very easy.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Example; the DBS -- they were in a DR last night, somebody

11

got put in “pending investigation status,” the C&A board has to

12

review it the next day because the DBS made a change, it -- he either

13

did or did not get a DR.

14

to pending investigation, that’s real simple; did this guy get a DR

15

last night?

Yes he did.

I mean, he went from working at a mess deck

He’s pending investigation.

16

Q.

All right.

17

A.

So sometimes it’s very, very quick.

18

Q.

So after discussion, however long that may be, and looking

19
20
21
22
23

at the record, then you as the senior board member vote first?
A.

I mean, yes, sir.

I mean, I might not be the first person

that signs the thing or not, but.
Q.

Well, I need to understand that then.

We’ve heard

testimony that the senior board member votes first.

4385

Do you vote

08272

1

first or ----

2

A.

3
4
5

More than likely, sir, because I’ve probably got the

package in front of me first, so I sign it first.
Q.

And then it goes to the next most senior board member and

they -- they vote?

6

A.

Pass it to whoever’s closest, sir, but sure, sir.

7

Q.

In your experience is it pass it to whoever’s closer or

8
9

passing to the next senior person?
A.

It’s not passed necessarily in the order that people are

10

listed there.

11

Q.

That’s your memory?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

I don’t remember ever saying, hey, I’ve got to give it to

15
16
17
18
19

this guy next.
Q.

All right, so it’s not done by rank, is that your

testimony?
A.

Yes, sir.

I’ve never handed it to somebody based off their

rank or the order they’re listed on a piece of paper.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

Not that I remember.

22
23

I mean, it’s -- I pass it to

whoever’s there.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right.

4386

Ma’am, if -- before I go into my

08273

1

next block, if we could take a brief comfort break.

2

MJ:

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

MJ:

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

6

minutes.

7

MJ:

All right, how long would you like?
Say 35 after.

Government?
Ma’am, if we could make it 40, so that’s 15

All right, the court is in recess to 20 minutes to 5 or

8

1700.

9

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1624, 2 December 2012.]

10

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1642, 2 December

11

2012.]

12

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

13

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

14

again present in court.

15

Coombs?

16

Questions continued by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. Coombs]:

The witness is on the witness stand.

Mr.

17

Q.

Sergeant Blenis, you’re still under oath.

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Now, Sergeant Blenis, I want to make sure of the voting

20

process again, just to make sure I understand your testimony.

21

the board meeting together, my understanding is once you guys go

22

together somebody -- maybe just tell me.

23

all three board members together in one room.

4387

What happens next?

So for

You get

Say the detainee has

08274

1
2

elected not to be there or is -- wasn’t there.
A.

What happens next?

Say the who -- say the name of the person we’re reviewing,

3

what his current status is, what the recommended status is, brief

4

whatever information goes along with that recommended status, and

5

then ----

6

Q.

Who’s doing that?

7

A.

Usually the counselor.

8
9

If not the counselor, I’d probably

brief it.
Q.

All right, so -- and we’ll use now Manning’s situation.

So

10

if it’s Manning and you’re the senior board member, the board members

11

are going to come together, you are going to brief what?

12

A.

What he currently is, what the recommended status is, which

13

is what they’re voting on, and then anything that goes along -- what

14

goes into the -- why is that -- why is that the recommended status.

15
16
17

Q.

And when you’re saying why that recommended status, you

also brief then other things that you note in the file?
A.

Correct, sir.

So we’re going to brief everything from his

18

history, how he’s been since he’s been there, interaction with the

19

staff, the psych’s recommendation, my -- in this case, my interaction

20

with him, conduct, behavior, any supporting documentation that may

21

exist going into that, I would say -- and this wasn’t necessarily

22

Manning, but let’s say he had a disciplinary report that week, we’d

23

brief that, incident reports that might involve him -- anything on --

4388

08275

1

any kind of supporting documentation.

2

staff I’m also going to throw in there that -- the logbook where they

3

wrote down any kind of behavior or anything like that -- brief that.

4

Now like the logbook it wouldn’t be in there because I’ve probably

5

have already done my weekly report and I can just go off of that.

6

Q.

All right, so you brief all that.

7

Manning as the example.

8

members.

9

A.

When I say interaction with

So we’re -- we use

You brief that to the other two board

And then what happens next?
Everybody forms their own opinion of how they want to vote.

10

And then they make their vote.

11

sign yes or no to the status, and then they sign it, and then that’s

12

the vote.

13

Q.

Okay.

They would sign -- you know, they’d

So you brief it and -- and so you’ve got the

14

classification and assignment review form and anything else that was

15

included in the packet.

16

and then you pass it around to vote or what happens?

17

process work?

18

A.

Is it right after you brief you discuss it
How does that

Once everybody -- once it’s briefed then at that point

19

here’s -- here’s the C&A sheet, sign -- sign your name and you vote

20

whatever you’re voting.

21

Q.

Okay, so ----

22

A.

Also, once it’s all voted, I get that and that form also

23

ends up in the commanding officer’s desk along with everybody else,

4389

08276

1

plus the ----

2

Q.

All right, if we were the two members -- let’s say it’s

3

only a two-member board, you just briefed it to me.

4

briefed me all the stuff, you just hand this form to now and I vote?

5
6
7
8
9

A.

Correct, sir.

Here -- here’s your -- sign -- sign the

paper.
Q.

Now before you hand it to me would you make your vote or

would you not?
A.

Usually I would, sir.

10

then, you know, sign afterwards.

11

first more than likely.

12

Okay, you’ve

Q.

I mean, I might forget to sign and
But I’m -- usually probably I sign

And -- okay, so you sign, you hand it to me, I sign, and in

13

this case maybe there’s another person, they sign.

14

we review all the paperwork or do we go off of what your brief was?

15
16
17
18
19

A.

Before we sign do

I mean, you can review it -- they can review all the

paperwork.
Q.

In your experience, do they review all the paperwork or do

they just go off the briefs?
A.

Sometimes they’d go off the briefs, sometimes they reviewed

20

the paperwork.

21

mean, ultimately once we’re done with the board we sign.

22
23

Q.

It depends on what paperwork were there.

But -- I

Now for PFC Manning, how much time -- and I’m not saying in

every case, but in general, how much time from the board getting

4390

08277

1

together, you briefing it, everyone voting, and then moving on to the

2

other -- next detainee if need be?

3

A.

That varied, sir.

4

Q.

Just in general?

5

A.

5 minutes -- 5 -- 10 minutes, I mean, I don’t know.

You can give me a range?

6

Sometimes -- sometimes it might be one minute.

7

information to pass on from last to this week it might be very, very

8

quick, I mean, ‘cause some stuff just -- history doesn’t change

9

because if we want to talk post-January 18 incident, January 18th

10
11

didn’t change -- that was there.
Q.

If there’s no new

So.

So it could be as quick as a minute where everyone’s saying

12

noth -- there’s nothing new, you know, we’re keeping him here, or it

13

could be longer if you had more information you needed to cover?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And at the longest, how long do you think from your memory

16
17

did you and the board members took before you finalized your votes?
A.

Sir, I can’t remember how long it would take.

18

wasn’t a long painstaking process.

19

able to track down the psych’ yet or not.

20

specific order everything happened in.

21

Q.

I mean it

It might depend on whether I was
So, I mean, there was no

So once you were prepared to brief it to the other board

22

members, what do you think the longest you guys evaluated before you

23

make your vote?

4391

08278

1
2

A.

I’m sure there’s been times where it’s been 10 -- 15

minutes where we’ve talked about it.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

I mean, I can’t really remember now, sir.

5

Q.

All right, now you would agree with me -- and I’ll actually

6

-- I’ll hand you back Enclosure 32 [handing the document to the

7

witness].

And we’ll just turn to -- to Page 7 of 26 for that.

8

[The witness looked at the document.]

9

Q.

You’d agree with me that it -- as part of what you’re doing

10

here, you’re basically trying to make a determination both as to

11

custody of the detainee and as to their classification status,

12

correct?

13

A.

Correct, sir.

14

Q.

And custody for PFC Manning would be either maximum or

15

medium in as a pretrial detainee.

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Those are --

18

A.

It couldn’t be anything else.

19

Q.

-- the -- all right.

And classification for PFC Manning as

20

far as his classification status was always either suicide risk or

21

POI as far as what you were voting?

22
23

A.

Correct, sir.

I don’t think I -- I don’t think I ever

recommended on paper anything other than that.

4392

08279

1

Q.

Okay.

And let’s talk about maximum custody for a moment.

2

You know, because he was in a brig then the requirement of the SECNAV

3

Instruction applied to PFC Manning, correct?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And that would be SECNAV 1640. --

6

A.

40.9 Charlie.

7

Q.

-- 9 Charlie, correct?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Now, since you were obviously a member of the brig and

10

working in corrections you’re familiar with that instruction?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And certainly you’re familiar with the fact that under the

13

SECNAV Instruction only a small percentage of prisoners should be

14

classified as maximum custody?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

And that’s because maximum custody is reserved for this

17

individuals who are either a high probability of escape or are

18

potentially dangerous or violent, correct?

19
20
21
22
23

A.

Correct.

Harms themselves -- potentially violent and

dangerous to themselves, others, staff.
Q.

Okay.

And having a person on maximum custody, you would

agree, is a manpower intensive requirement for you, the brig?
A.

Yes, sir.

4393

08280

1
2

Q.

And that’s because you have to lock down the brig entirely

when you move anybody?

3

A.

That and just the restraints, sir.

4

Q.

Yeah, the hand and leg irons.

5

A.

If they go outside it takes two people to bring them out.

6
7
8
9

Yeah, it’s taxing, sir.
Q.

And so in your experience what type of detainee is

typically on maximum custody?
A.

Escape risks, potentially violent and dangerous, suicide

10

watch, prevention of injury, you can have others on MAX.

I mean --

11

could have somebody on disciplinary segregation that’s also on MAX.

12

I can have someone that’s on protective custody as a MAX.

13

really see that too often, but you can.

14

somebody that’s general population on MAX custody.

You don’t

You’re not going to find

15

Q.

So in this case was PFC Manning an escape risk?

16

A.

He could be, sir, you know, because of potential length of

17

sentence.

18

Q.

Did you view him as an escape risk?

19

A.

He hadn’t demonstrated anything to me and didn’t have

20

anything in his history that would tell me he’s an escape risk.

If I

21

would have voted on escape risk, I think -- I would have considered

22

his potential length of sentence, but I don’t -- I don’t know if I

23

voted yes or no -- right now.

I mean, you probably -- you would have

4394

08281

1

had to ask me then.

2

recommend escape risk for somebody -- taking about Manning -- the

3

only thing I would have to stand on is potential length of sentence

4

because he didn’t do anything to show me he was an escape risk.

5
6

Q.

But the only thing that -- if I was going to

Okay, and you already testified that PFC Manning wasn’t a

violent detainee to any of the guards or the staff, correct?

7

A.

No.

He’d -- up until -- I mean, he never attempted to

8

assault anybody, you know.

9

think it’s gone now, but the 128 charge.

I know he had -- once upon a time, I
He came in -- so he had a

10

little bit of history of assault.

11

know, history of assault, you know, what kind of assault is it

12

obviously?

13

threat to harm himself -- of himself, but others like staff.

14

didn’t think he was going -- if I take the cuffs off him I don’t

15

believe he’d punch me in the face.

16

would.

17

Q.

But, you know, even that, you

But, no, I didn’t -- I didn’t view him as a serious
I

Might, but I don’t think he

So at least looking at the maximum, and that’s for the

18

violent or potential dangerous detainees or the highest escape risk,

19

I mean, did you view him as a potentially dangerous detainee to other

20

members of the staff?

21

A.

No, sir.

I had no reason to think he was going to harm

22

other persons or the staff outside of the 128 charge and surrounding

23

that.

But by January, six months into it, he didn’t show me anything

4395

08282

1

that he was going to assault staff.

2
3

Q.

So up until, I guess, before -- let’s just cut it off right

at January 1st --

4

A.

Yeah.

5

Q.

-- what were you relying upon week after week to say

6

maximum custody is my recommendation?

7

A.

Let’s see.

Up to that point it was either suicide risk or

8

prevention of injury.

9

escape risk, those statuses came with maximum custody.

10

Q.

And that was standard that those like PVD and

Okay, from your knowledge and how you were looking at it,

11

if he was in suicide risk or in prevention of injury, the default was

12

he was going to be in MAX then?

13

A.

Correct, sir.

That’s what -- that’s what we were taught

14

day one in corrections school.

15

other than that.

16

Q.

And I’ve never heard of anything

Okay, so really, if I’m hearing you correctly, what drove

17

the train on whether or not he was in MAX was the prevention of

18

injury status that he was consistently on?

19

A.

Correct, sir, from my opinion, yes, sir.

20

Q.

All right, so now let’s talk about prevention of injury

21

then.

22

SECNAV Instruction, correct?

23

Prevention of injury is not a status that’s recognized in the

A.

No, sir, you’re not going to see prevention of injury

4396

08283

1

status or classification.

2

Q.

And how -- so how does prevention of injury status and

3

classification come into being if it’s not recognized under the

4

SECNAV Instruction?

5

A.

How it first came into existence is, you know, lot -- long

6

before I started working in corrections.

But it’s -- I got to

7

imagine that it came into existence because somebody felt without POI

8

you were either -- are suicide risk or general population; there’s no

9

middle ground.

So in the case of, hey, we don’t think this guy needs

10

to be watched -- he doesn’t need to have a guard posted outside.

11

When you’re on suicide watch, there’s a guard posted outside your

12

cell.

13

created it he didn’t say, hey, this is the status that’s going -- you

14

know, prevention of injury, there’s a happy medium -- decides, hey, I

15

don’t think this guy’s such a risk to himself that we need to have

16

somebody sitting directly in front of him 24/7 logging in everything

17

he does, however, I think he needs to be checked.

18

you know, a higher potential of him hurting himself than that of

19

general population prisoners, so, hey five minutes, prevention of

20

injury.

21

I wasn’t there for the genesis of it.

He sits there and he stares at you.

So at that point whoever

And that’s probably the genesis of it.

I think there’s --

Speculating because

22

Q.

And so ----

23

MJ:

Mr. Coombs, can I just interrupt here for just a second?

4397

08284

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

2

MJ:

Yes, Your Honor.

I’m getting a little confused that there’s no reference to

3

prevention of injury in the SECNAV Instruction.

4

Section 4205.1a, which talks about prevention of injury -- on Page 4-

5

14.

6
7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:
ma’am.

MJ:

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11
12

That’s not as a status -- custody status,

So you ----

8

10

I’m looking at

MJ:

Oh, the custody status.
Yeah -- for a classification status.

Okay, that’s where I’m getting confused.

Okay.

Questions continued by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. Coombs]:
Q.

And just so, you know, I’m -- you correct me if I’m wrong,

13

that prevention of injury isn’t a recognized classification of an

14

individual by the SECNAV Instruction?

15
16

A.

Correct, sir.

It’s not in there where it lists, hey, these

are your choices of classification and that’s it.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

I mean, that’s not there at all.

19
20

No -- there’s nothing

saying that these are your only choices either.
Q.

Now the SECNAV Instruction does talk about prevention of

21

injury as being a factor that a commander can consider to take

22

certain action?

23

A.

Correct, sir.

I can pick a verbiage, but yes.

4398

08285

1

Q.

Now, looking at the -- just any one of the classification

2

and assignment review forms, I’m looking at the -- what’s below the

3

recommendation and, depending upon which form you’re looking at,

4

below the inmate’s selection to appear or not, you see higher custody

5

factors and lower custody factors?

6

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

7

Q.

You’d agree with me that those only speak toward maximum

8
9
10
11
12

custody, is that correct?
A.

No, sir, they’re talking about higher custody or lower

custody.
Q.

Right.

To a custody factor; whether or not the person

should be in MAX or perhaps MDI?

13

A.

I’m not sure if I understand your question, sir.

14

Q.

Does -- do these factors speak towards the POI

15

classification or do they speak only towards the custody status?

16

A.

They speak to custody and classification, sir.

17

Q.

Is that your interpretation of them?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean, these are -- these are factors that are

19

overall.

20

just -- you never have a board just to consider custody or a board

21

just to consider classification.

22

the entire thing; custody and classification.

23

Q.

Custody and classification go together.

I mean, you don’t

I mean, you always review the --

Well, looking at these, the factors that are the higher

4399

08286

1

custody factors, those are from the SECNAV Instruction and they fall

2

under MAX custody, would you agree?

3

A.

I’d have to see the SECNAV in front of me, sir, to see

4

exactly how it’s written, but that -- that sounds about right -- I

5

mean, the higher custody factors.

6
7

Q.

Okay.

And then also for the SECNAV Instruction for the

lower custody factors, those are ones that fall for MDI?

8

A.

Or minimum, sir.

9

Q.

Right.

10

A.

I mean lower.

11

Q.

All right, then my question is what here speaks towards the

So that -- so like ---Lower than what he is now.

12

POI classification if everything here is from the SECNAV Instruction

13

addressing MAX or MDI?

14

A.

These are just factors that you consider, sir.

I mean -- I

15

mean, they -- there’s nothing saying, hey, you can only consider

16

these factors when you’re talking about this custody.

17

consider these factors when you’re talking about his classification.

18

Or this list you can only consider these factors when you’re talking

19

about classification, but you will not refer to these factors when

20

you’re talking about his custody.

21

Q.

All right.

And you cannot

Like -- it’s a total package, sir.

But I’m just looking at the form.

So is there

22

anything on here that speaks to you as these are the factors that we

23

consider for POI?

4400

08287

1
2

A.

These are the factors to be considered for custody and

classification, sir.

3

Q.

So serious drug abuse would go towards POI?

4

A.

It would go -- goes towards custody and classification,

Q.

I know.

5

sir.

6

I’m just worried about classification right now;

7

POI.

8

these are the factors that we are referencing for POI?

9

So I’m asking you from this form, what do you look at to say

A.

This isn’t all inclusive, sir, but -- yeah, if I have

10

somebody who has a serious drug dependency, of course that’s going to

11

be a -- that’s not going to make me think he’s not suicidal -- you

12

know, suicide risk or risk of hurting himself.

13

factor -- that increases your chance of wanting to hurt yourself if

14

you’ve had ----

I mean, that doesn’t

15

Q.

16

[The witness did as directed.]

17

Q.

You were the senior board member, correct?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

So you would have checked the boxes under higher custody

20

Turn to Page 8 of this -- 8 of 26 for Enclosure 32.

factors?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

All right.

23

So -- at least under this one, which one spoke

towards POI for you?

4401

08288

1

A.

[Looking at the document.] Disruptive behavior -- because

2

the disruptive behavior we’re talking about is now the January 8th

3

incident -- I mean, the 18th by the date on this -- low tolerance for

4

frustration, family relationships, mental screening, potential length

5

of -- well, potential length of sentence is really not going to play

6

a factor in -- when I’m -- if I’m just considering prevention of

7

injury.

8

look at that one more if I’m looking at somebody for escape risk.

Length of sentence really -- I’ll consider it, but I’m -- I

9

Q.

All right ----

10

A.

I mean, I could -- that could play a factor did someone

11

want to harm themselves; hey, I’m looking at a lot of time.

12

want to harm myself.

13

Q.

I may

Okay, so here when you -- you fill this out, I guess,

14

looking at the lower custody factors, I notice that none of them are

15

ever -- no matter which one we look at -- none of them are ever

16

checked.

17

that’s Page 12 of 26 that’s checked, but it seems to be speaking

18

towards a higher custody factor as opposed to a lower.

19

tell me why none of the lower custody factors were ever checked?

20

A.

There’s one that dates -- when you weren’t on the board,

He didn’t have a clear military record.

21

close family ties.

22

apparently have a stable mental condition.

23

Q.

He didn’t have

The offenses charged were serious.

And stop on that one.

So can you

He didn’t

You were getting consistent

4402

08289

1

recommendations from mental health experts saying he was either

2

stable or, in fact, you start to get some that says his mental sort

3

of is resolved, and they’re recommending that he come off of POI.

4

can you tell me why that wasn’t checked?

5

A.

Because it wasn’t apparent.

6

Q.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand.

7

A.

It wasn’t apparent.

8

The psych’s was writing that.

So

That

doesn’t make it apparent.

9

Q.

I don’t understand.

10

A.

Because a psychologist says he’s not a risk to himself that

11

doesn’t -- it’s not the end all, be all.

12

goes into it than just the psych’s recommendation, especially when I

13

don’t have any kind of reason as why that’s his recommendation.

14
15
16
17

Q.

I mean, there’s more that

And -- okay, tell me why -- I don’t understand what you’re

saying now.
A.

Apparent stable mental condition; I’ve got a doc’ that

sitting here telling me recommend removal from prevention of injury.

18

Q.

Right.

19

A.

Got it.

That’s your recommendation.

I understand that.

20

Sir, I under -- how did you get to that recommendation?

21

-- why is that your recommendation?

22

questions to that -- answers to that.

23

Q.

I would like to know the

And did you ask those questions?

4403

Why did you

08290

1

A.

If I -- I would if Captain Hocter would have been there,

3

Q.

I’m sorry ----

4

A.

If I had a chance to like talk to the psych’s -- like sit

2

5
6
7
8
9

sir.

down and talk to him.
Q.

Okay, so I didn’t know that.

So you -- you had a problem

with Captain Hocter’s recommendation?
A.

No, not his -- I didn’t have a problem with his

recommendations.

I didn’t agree with them.

10

Q.

And why didn’t you agree with them?

11

A.

Because I don’t know how he came to his recommendation.

12

Sir, I’m not going to base my recommendation off of somebody’s

13

recommendation just because it’s their recommendation.

14

I do that -- if the only reason for my recommendation is because it’s

15

somebody else’s recommendation, it’s not even my recommendation

16

anymore.

17
18

Q.

If that -- if

I’m a puppet.
Yeah, I would agree.

So in this instance though this

recommendation is coming from a mental health professional, right?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

So why did you ever -- why didn’t you follow that

21
22
23

recommendation coming from your mental health expert?
A.

I don’t have to agree with the recommendation solely

because it’s his recommendation.

4404

08291

1

Q.

Can you tell me why?

2

A.

Let’s say for instance you’re a psychologist ----

3

Q.

Right.

4

A.

---- Master Sergeant, I recommend this guy come off of POI.

5

So, fine, since you recommended it, I recommend it.

6

recommendation anymore, it’s your recommendation.

7
8

Q.

A.

Q.

I don’t want

So did you believe Captain Hocter failed to adequately

explain to you why his recommendation was the way it was?

13
14

Yes, sir, I want to know what they think.

just a recommendation, I want to know what they think.

11
12

Well, no, I mean, aren’t you getting a recommendation from

the mental health experts because they’re the mental health experts?

9
10

It’s not my

A.

I think he failed to explain anything to me, sir, because I

never really got a chance to talk to him.

15

Q.

Did you ----

16

A.

I rare ----

17

Q.

---- did you factor ----

18

A.

---- I rarely talked to him.

19

Q.

---- did you factor -- because he didn’t explain his

20

recommendation, did you believe his recommendation carried a lot of

21

weight?

22

A.

23

it.

It carried weight, sir.

At least I did.

4405

I mean, we reco -- we considered

08292

1

Q.

Right.

2

A.

I considered it.

It’s his recommendation.

I mean, it’s

3

not just, hey, I didn’t talk to Captain Hocter so this is his

4

recommend -- but, screw it, and threw it out.

No, I considered it.

5

Q.

And in what way did you give it ----

6

A.

And that -- and that -- that did weigh.

7

Q.

And what weight did you give his recommendations?

8

A.

Now, sir, I can’t -- I don’t know how much of a percentage

9

I put on it when it came to 100 percent recommendation, but -- I

10

mean, it would have carried more if I understood why he came to his

11

recommendation.

12

Q.

Well, let’s talk about that then.

What did you see that

13

was deficient from how the recommendation was given to you to where

14

you would have maybe -- carried more weight with you?

15

A.

If I understood why he came to his -- sir, if you’re

16

telling me he’s not a -- you say he doesn’t need any kind of

17

heightened caution around him as far as hurting himself.

18

sir, why don’t you think that, because here’s what I see, sir.

19

this XYZ, whatever, and if you don’t think those are causes for

20

concern, that’s great, but, sir, I am concerned.

21

shouldn’t be.

22

doing this?

23

Q.

Understood,
I see

Tell me why I

If that’s not cause for concern, why, sir, why is he
And maybe he can explain that to me.

Did you talk to Captain Hocter like that and ask him that?

4406

08293

1

A.

No, sir, I didn’t get a chance to talk to him at all.

I

2

mean maybe once or twice in passing.

3

programs chief, prior to Captain Hocter leaving, I rarely got to talk

4

to him.

5

email traffic right when he found out that PFC Manning was getting

6

confined.

7

times, I think -- it’s all in the same chain -- it’s fairly -- fairly

8

good.

9

Manning was there -- before Manning was ever even going to come

10

Rarely.

But during my tenure as the

The most communication I ever had with him was that

I think me and him emailed back and forth three or four

That was the best communication I’ve had with him ever while

there.

11

Q.

All right, so let’s just stick with Captain Hocter for a

12

moment.

13

perspective in him communicating the reasons why he was making his

14

recommendation.

Then they -- it sounds like there was a breakdown from your

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Did you address that with your chain of command?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And how so?

19

A.

Hey, sir or ma’am -- depending on who was there -- once

20

again, Captain Hocter, he saw Manning.

21

saw Manning.

22

where did he go?

23

right, well -- and I tell them, hey, sir, I’m not getting a chance to

Well where’s he at?

Did he see Manning?

He’s gone already, sir.

Probably back to the hospital, you know.

4407

Yes, he
Well,
All

08294

1

talk to him.

He made his recom -- I’ve got his recommendation here -

2

- if I had it.

3

He’d take it with him.

4

I’ve got his recommendation here.

5

know, I haven’t talked to him.

6

I’d be great to talk to him.

7

recommendation was clear.

8

his -- his ultimate recommendation was clear, aside from that you

9

might get one sentence -- to -- and I need a Rosetta Stone to read

Sometimes I wouldn’t even have a piece of paper.
But eventually when I had it -- hey, sir,
But being able to talk to him, you

I can’t get a chance to talk to him.
But the comments on this sheet -- his

It always said, yes, remove or maintain

10

it.

But the -- there was -- I would love to have more substance,

11

either in writing or speaking in person.

12

that had all kinds of, hey, I don’t think he’s a risk and here’s why

13

-- all kinds of stuff, that would decrease the necessity to talk to

14

him.

15

only “Maintain POI.

16

get.

17

recommend my decision -- make my recommendation based solely off of -

18

- just because it’s his recommendation, it should be mine.

19

not my recommendation anymore.

20

today out at Camp Pendleton, don’t you dare make your recommendation

21

because it’s my recommendation.

That’s -- if we do that, I’m not

22

even doing -- I’m doing my job.

The commanding officer counts on me

23

to make my recommendation based off of the facts that are presented

If he gave me a write-up

But since I had no substance -- like I remember one that said
Like that’s -- that’s -- that’s what I

Thanks.”

Seriously, can I get a little bit more than that?

So I can’t

That’s

Just like I tell my Marines, even

4408

08295

1

in front of me and my interpretation of those and my thought process.

2

If everybody else’s recommendation is based off of mine or mine is

3

based off of somebody else’s solely because it’s their

4

recommendation, I’ve just failed the commanding officer.

5

Q.

Now -- and I can tell you feel strongly about that.

So did

6

-- did -- when you expressed this to Chief Averhart, what did he say

7

back to you?

8

A.

9

I don’t remember his response.

I know -- I know he tried

to communicate with Captain Hocter, you know, before.

I know -- you

10

know -- now we’re getting to the powers to be level, sir.

I mean, I

11

wasn’t -- I wasn’t in there.

12

with him, didn’t have with him.

13

Manning ever came to the brig, hell, I couldn’t even get the man to

14

use a stamp.

15

Q.

I’m sorry?

16

A.

You know the medical officer stamps where you sign it --

I don’t know the conversations he had
I remember -- and this is before

17

they stamp it or whatever.

He wouldn’t even use a stamp.

Chief

18

Warrant Officer Averhart, when he came on deck, if we received a

19

confinement order or anything from medical -- he’s in confinement

20

already -- confinement physical, if there was a stamp on it, great.

21

If there wasn’t a stamp we didn’t really care because a stamp’s not

22

required.

23

evaluation is and his signature is -- his signature’s what validates

You know, in the end a medical officer, you know,

4409

08296

1

it to me.

2

wanted the stamp.

3

what I can do to get you a stamp from these guys.

4

through painstaking trouble trying to get doc’s to use stamps.

5

most -- most informed -- because usually the visits are done by the

6

same doctors over at the Naval Hospital or -- Captain Hocter never

7

used a stamp; refused to use a stamp.

8

I remember one response to an email about the stamp was, if the brig

9

wants to buy me a stamp, great, but I’m not getting one, or words to

10

When Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came on deck, he
So, great, hey, sir, I’ll do what I -- I’ll see
And we went
And

I remember sending emails, and

that effect -- that’s not quote.

11

Q.

And do you remember if Chief ----

12

A.

But I couldn’t even get him to give a stamp let alone talk

13
14

to me.
Q.

Do you remember Chief Averhart then also talking about

15

believing that Captain Hocter was trying to cover both sides --

16

basically covering his “six”?

Do you remember that email?

17

A.

I’m sorry, sir.

18

Q.

Do you remember receiving an email -- you were cc’ed on it

19

-- from Capt -- from Chief Averhart saying that he thought Captain

20

Hocter was trying to cover his “six” with his eval’s?

21

A.

He might of.

I don’t recall it.

He might have.

I mean, I don’t honestly

22

remember that.

I don’t doubt that email exists --

23

especially talking about it -- I’m sure it does, I just don’t

4410

08297

1

remember it.

2

Q.

And do you recall Chief Averhart ever expressing to you

3

kind of the same way of what you were just talking about any specific

4

displeasure with Captain Hocter’s availability?

5

A.

Nobody was happy with that, sir.

6

Q.

Did he express that to you?

7

A.

He probably did.

8

Q.

And I take it from what you’re saying now and how you said

9
10
11

I mean I don’t remember specifically.

it that you weren’t happy with the way Captain Hocter was conveying
the reasons behind his recommendations?
A.

I wasn’t happy with our working relationship at all.

We

12

had -- we had -- I mean our working relationship with him -- and I’m

13

not just saying me, I’m saying the brig as a whole, was next to none.

14

Nobody was happy with it.

15

Q.

Would you agree with me that, you know, obviously the

16

psych’ eval’ is part of the overall recommendation and consideration

17

by the classification and assignment board, right?

18
19
20

A.

If -- for Manning, yes, because we’re just talking about

POI and SR -- yes -- unless he’s not there.
Q.

And would you agree with me that in this instance if -- if

21

you were getting an eval’ from a doctor you didn’t trust, do you see

22

how that might be unfair to PFC Manning?

23

A.

If I was getting an eval’ from a doctor -- a doctor that I

4411

08298

1

just don’t trust, is that unfair ----

2

Q.

Could you see how that could be unfair to Detainee Manning?

3

A.

I could see how somebody might -- might think it’s unfair,

4

but -- I mean, that’s the only doc’ I got that’s coming here to do

5

this.

6

Q.

I mean, like if you had a doctor that -- that did respond

7

the way you wanted; explain to you in the manner that you want it to

8

be explained to why PFC Manning was not a risk of self-harm to your

9

satisfaction, do you see how that would maybe weigh a little bit more

10

in your ultimate factor?

11

A.

It would, sir, because it had more substance.

12

I’d have more to go off of.

13

I mean -- so -- so, yeah, that’s what I wanted.

14
15

Q.

I mean, the more information the better.

And so when you weren’t getting that, do you see how then

that would be unfair to PFC Manning?

16
17

You know,

A.

I -- I understand what you’re saying, sir.

You know --

but, I mean -- not having the information?

18

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

19

A.

It didn’t help my recommendation to get him to come off of

20

POI.

So I mean it didn’t make me want to put him on POI or SR --

21

lack of -- no information, yeah, it sure didn’t help being able to

22

come to a reco -- a better recommendation to -- you know, reasons why

23

I shouldn’t be as concerned as I am.

4412

08299

1
2
3
4

Q.

Now Captain Hocter, when he did came -- how long did he

spend with PFC Manning?
A.

Sometimes it would be -- I’d say he spent at least an hour

with him, I think.

Sometimes it was really long.

5

Q.

Like what would be the longest you think?

6

A.

I can’t remember, sir.

I remember him being there two --

7

two and a half hours, I think, sometimes.

8

just Manning he saw, too, so I can’t remember really.

9

was just Manning or Manning plus somebody else.

10

And -- and -- it wasn’t
I mean, if it

I -- I don’t

remember.

11

Q.

And ----

12

A.

I don’t -- I don’t think it was ever -- he came in and

13
14
15
16

talked with him for five minutes and left.
Q.

I didn’t ever see that.

Okay, so when he came to speak with PFC Manning it was on

average, from your memory, at least an hour or so?
A.

I -- yes, sir.

I mean, I always felt it was long enough to

17

where he probably thoroughly did his job -- I assumed.

18

in there for a while.

19

Q.

I mean he was

Now when PFC Manning came to speak with you -- actually

20

when you spoke to him on a weekly eval’ sometimes you would speak to

21

him when he was in his cell?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And sometimes to give him a break from his cell you’d have

4413

08300

1

him brought to your office?

2
3

A.
week.

4
5

In a perfect world, sir, I’d bring him to my office every

Hell, he can come into my office every day if he wanted.
Q.

No, I’m just simply saying sometimes you’d speak to him at

his cell --

6

A.

Sometimes in my office.

7

Q.

-- and sometimes you’d have him brought down to your

8

office?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And because he’s a MAX detainee, when he’s brought down to

11

your office, he’s always still in his restraints?

12

A.

Correct, sir.

13

Q.

And that’s because that’s what the Brig O requires -- the

14

Brig OIC?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

I mean, that’s every brig.

I’ve never been

16

to a brig where someone from maximum custody comes out, sir, without

17

restraints unless you were in the shower.

18
19

Q.

Okay.

And when you go to speak with him at his cell, how

long do you normally spend with him?

20

A.

Sometimes it’s very brief.

22

Q.

Can you give me the range?

23

A.

Anywhere -- anywheres from 30 seconds to 20 minutes.

21

Sometimes it would be a few ---

-

4414

08301

1
2
3

Q.

No, I’m talking about for your weekly conversation with him

as his counselor?
A.

I mean, sometimes it would be very brief and sometimes we’d

4

be there for a while.

5

where I was at his cell for 20 minutes.

6

but it was more time for me to be there for 30 seconds to a minute

7

because it was one of those that he’s -- he’s just -- he ain’t

8

talking to me.

I don’t remember ever spending very many times
I mean, that has happened,

He wants me to move on.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

There’s been times where -- there’s time where I’ve brought

11

him down to my office -- and he’s there -- and, you know, sitting

12

there -- and again, it was one of those very direct, you know,

13

answering questions -- not elaborating on much -- not -- you know,

14

really just trying to hurry up so I can get out of there.

15

feeling I got.

16

Q.

That’s the

Okay, and I -- so I want to actually divide these just so

17

your testimony is clear.

18

his cell to talk to him it could be for your weekly counseling

19

evaluation.

20

not talkative, to 20 minutes?

21

A.

So then when you were -- when you’d go to

It could be as little as 30 seconds -- a minute, if he’s

Yes, sir.

I mean, that’s any -- I mean, I’m not -- it

22

wasn’t -- it’s not like I went down to his cell.

23

-- I’m going to Manning’s cell for his weekly interview.

4415

I’d leave my office
I went to

08302

1
2
3

special quarters almost every day.
Q.

Okay, but the SECNAV Instruction requires you to do a

weekly evaluation with each detainee.

4

A.

Correct -- correct, sir.

5

Q.

So I’m asking about that.

6

A.

To meet -- to meet with him -- to meet with him at least

7

once weekly.

8

Q.

9
10
11

I met with him -- I tried to meet with him daily.

Okay.

So are you -- is your testimony, I guess now, for

your evaluations you would meet with him at his cell daily from 30 -between 30 seconds to 20 minutes?
A.

No, sir.

Whenever I met with Manning, it was either in his

12

cell or in my office.

And these meetings sometimes were 30 seconds,

13

sometimes they’re -- in my office they’re -- you know, they’re --

14

Q.

Because the ----

15

A.

-- in my office -- upwards of an hour or more.

16

Q.

All right.

17

Because the eval’s re -- actually state an

exact day when you had your evaluation with him, right?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Okay, so that’s what I’m talking about.

So on those days

20

when you -- if your eval’ was down at his cell, what was the time

21

period that you would spend?

22
23

A.

Sir, I -- 20 minutes.

I mean -- I don’t know.

remember.

4416

I don’t

08303

1

Q.

Okay, and then --

2

A.

Sir, I don’t remember.

3

Q.

-- if the eval’ ----

4

A.

I mean, it varied -- it varied so much that.

5

Q.

Okay, and if the eval’ was at your office where you

6

actually brought him down, on average, how long do you think you’d

7

spend with him?

8

A.

Whenever he came to my office -- and, again, this isn’t

9

just Manning’s coming to my office for a weekly interview -- you

10

know, Manning’s coming to my office just ‘cause, hey, let me get

11

Manning down here.

12

phone call, I don’t know.

13

Q.

We might be talking -- it might be for a chit --

But I’m only talking about the eval’s -- the eval’s you’re

14

documenting, you’re writing down, your observation and evaluation

15

notes for that week.

16

him.

17

your office on that day, how long in general do you spend with him?

18
19

And you say on that date you -- you evaluate

So that’s what I’m talking about.

A.

So when he comes down to

15 to 20 minutes, up -- sometimes an hour, sir.

It depends

-- depends on if he’s talking to me or not.

20

Q.

And that entire time he’s in his restraints because he’s a

21

MAX detainee?

22

A.

Correct, sir.

23

Q.

And because you --

4417

08304

1

A.

There may -- there may have been times where I had them

2

take the restraints off.

3

that or not.

4

Q.

I don’t specifically remember if I ever did

But ----

Well, that’s what I was going to ask you -- because you had

5

that previous experience with the death row detainee, where once the

6

restraints were removed, after a period of time, that person started

7

to talk to you more.

8

A.

Correct, sir.

9

Q.

Did you try that technique with PFC Manning?

10

A.

If I did -- I don’t remember specifically if I did or not,

11
12
13

sir.

But I never felt like that was -- that was going to get it.
Q.

And if you did try that technique with PFC Manning,

obviously you would have to get the Brig OIC’s approval?

14

A.

Not -- I wouldn’t do it beforehand.

15

Q.

Well the SECNAV Instruction requires and the Brig OIC

16

requires under the local SOP for your confinement facility that all

17

MAX detainees will be in hand and leg restraints.

18

A.

Correct, sir.

19

Q.

So you would -- you would obviously need to get your Brig

20
21

OIC’s approval?
A.

Sir, it was understood from any commanding officer that

22

I’ve ever had that if -- if I’m down here, he’s in his counselor’s

23

office, and we feel like, hey, we want to have the restraints

4418

08305

1

removed, we can.

Just let him know later.

2

we had that latitude.

But, yes, sir, we got --

3

Q.

Okay.

And do you recall ever doing that for PFC Manning?

4

A.

Not specifically, no, sir.

5

Q.

So at this point then, going back to the classification and

6

assignment review form -- and that -- and actually before I ask that

7

question, if you’re spending on average 20 minutes, maybe at his

8

cell, to upwards to an hour or maybe a little bit more if he’s in

9

your office, would you agree with me then that you’re probably seeing

10

PFC Manning about the same amount of time that Captain Hocter is

11

seeing PFC Manning?

12

A.

It depends on the week, sir.

13

Q.

I’m just saying in general would you agree that the two of

14
15

you are seeing him about the same amount of time?
A.

It’s probably closer.

I mean it really -- really depends

16

on the week, but -- I mean, some weeks, yes, some weeks, no.

I mean,

17

hell, sir, I don’t know.

18

put a stopwatch on when Captain Hocter met with Manning and just

19

Manning.

And then on top of it -- again, I didn’t

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

Now, remember if he went down there and met with him down

22

in the little room there in front of special quarters, it was Captain

23

Hocter’s in there.

Hey, he’s in there with Manning.

4419

Hey, he’s in

08306

1

there with whoever else.

2

Captain Hocter.

3

might be down there -- sometimes he might be in special quarters for

4

three -- four hours.

5

for three or four hours.

6

don’t remember.

7

Q.

Okay.

I was never going to barge in and talk to

I was always waiting for him to get done.

So he

That doesn’t mean he’s in there with Manning
So how long it was per person there, sir, I

So -- now I know -- now I want to talk about POI and

8

why you had him on POI then from -- from basically every week when

9

you made your vote.

And I think I understand you correctly, and you

10

can say I’m wrong, but what drove the MAX custody was because he was

11

POI or SR?

12

A.

13

as an MDI/SR.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

That is unheard of.

Q.

So -- all right, so then for the POI, why was he on POI

16
17

Yes, sir.

I mean that was just -- there was no such thing

I never heard of such a thing at this

time.

18

from your prospective?

19

So from -- from basically August 27th when -- the first time you get

20

the recommendation from Captain Hocter to take him off of POI, to

21

let’s say January 1st.

22

have him on POI week after week?

23

A.

And we can go -- let’s go up to January 1st.

That almost six month time period, why do you

Because he has a history of suicide ideations, gestures,

4420

08307

1

statements -- written statements.

2

Q.

What statements are you talking about?

3

A.

The are you suicidal -- or are you currently suicidal or

4

however it was -- yes, always planning, never acting.

5

statement.

It’s a written

6

Q.

Okay, so the intake statement that he made on 29 July?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Okay.

In your mind did it ever have an expiration date

where maybe, okay, we’re far enough removed?

11

A.

No time period, sir.

I mean, always is always; simple as

12

that.

13

less relevant.

14

planning, never acting, that’s a long time ago.

15

so long.

16

That -- always

is pretty -- always doesn’t come with an expiration date.

9
10

Always planning, never acting.

The farther we get away from that as time goes on, it becomes

Q.

Ten years from now, zero problems -- I mean, always
Ten weeks ago, not

So in your mind -- and I know those are the two extremes

17

apparently for you; 10 weeks, not so long, 10 years very long.

18

there a time period where you start to say, okay, yeah, that’s far

19

removed and we should probably not consider it?

20

A.

Oh, no that’ll never not be considered.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

That could never not be considered.

23

Q.

All right.

4421

Is

08308

1

A.

No, sir.

I never had a target date -- I mean it goes in --

2

because now we’re just talking about just his statement.

3

we’re in -- on top of that he made a noose out of -- I got a report

4

that says he made a noose out of a bed sheet.

5
6
7

Q.

But now

Okay, and then that’s the stuff that happened in Kuwait,

right?
A.

In confinement, sir.

I mean -- let’s remember -- if I

8

remember right, that -- that incident report that was dated -- where

9

they found the noose in his bed sheet --

10

Q.

Right.

11

A.

-- was only like three or four weeks before he got to

12

Quantico, if I remember now -- I can’t remember now for sure.

But I

13

mean it was fairly recent.

14

a noose out of a bed sheet, he tells me he made one out of sandbag

15

ties, these are -- this is a plan.

16

care how bored you get, you don’t make a noose inside a jail.

But I got a report that tells me he made

This is in confinement.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

So -- or two -- I’m thinking there’s two.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

Simple as that.

I don’t

I’ve got a report and he’s telling me

21

about another one.

So as far as I’m concerned I got two because I’m

22

not going -- I’m not going to question the integrity of a report, and

23

I had no reason to -- to question his integrity either.

4422

I never

08309

1

caught him lying to me.

2

of either one of them.

3

planning, never acting after that.

4

developed for August, September, October, starting to get developed

5

in November, you know, starting to get it developed in November.

6

December he’s communicating with me.

7

1st, but he started to in January as well.

8
9
10

Q.

So I’m not going to question the integrity
So I’ve got that.

Yeah, let’s stop there.

I’ve got the always

I’ve got no rapport being

You said we’ll start at January

So -- so for that time period then

it’s the lack of communication that’s the big factor for you?
A.

I -- I -- it’s huge, sir.

I need him to convince me that

11

the making the nooses, the statement he wrote, the -- by this point

12

now we know of these other things that he, you know, the irregular

13

behavior, he’s -- I needed him to communicate with me and tell --

14

tell me why I don’t need to be so concerned about this.

15

Q.

What was the -- okay, and I don’t want to miss any of your

16

-- factor’s you’re putting there.

17

we covered that even though you thought there wasn’t a good line of

18

communication, you never directly went to PFC Manning and said, you

19

know, I need you to communicate with me more.

20
21

A.

So the communication part I think

I’m sure I said that -- I mean did I ever go up to him and

say it just like you just said it?

22

Q.

Right.

23

A.

Probably not.

But at some point I -- I -- no communication

4423

08310

1
2
3
4
5

was ---Q.

You -- on direct you said I never asked, hey, why aren’t

you talking to me?
A.

Probably not.

I never went up to him and ask him the way

you just asked me?

6

Q.

Right.

7

A.

Naw, I don’t think I probably did that.

8

Q.

Okay.

9
10
11
12

So -- and not asking him why aren’t you talking to

me, you were just relying on him eventually to open up to you and
talk to you more?
A.

Engaging in discussion.

different ways to get him to talk -- I tried playing chess with him.

13

Q.

Right.

14

A.

So.

15

Q.

Okay.

And so then -- so that’s one factor.

16

the noose.

17

fact he’s not talking to you.

18

What’s the other behavior?

19

That’s why I tried so many

A.

We’ve got the statement he made at intake.

So we’ve got
We’ve got the

And then you said the other behavior.

Such as licking the bars in his cell.

The other abnormal

20

behavior that was being logged in the logbook -- sword fighting, what

21

-- I can’t remember what all that was logged in the logbook.

22
23

Q.

Okay, but my understanding of that is -- is you overheard

that when you were walking up to some guards that they -- they just

4424

08311

1

mentioned that.

2

A.

That’s the first time that we ever -- I don’t know what

3

they said that caught my ear.

But when they said whatever they said

4

that caught my ear, I asked them about that.

5

about a couple other different things.

6

with the CO.

7

that came up.

8

Q.

So you never saw the conduct?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

Okay, so what was reported to you and what we saw in the

And then they told me

That’s when I went and talked

That’s when -- this is the genesis now of the logbook

I never saw him licking the bars.

11

email was the thought was he was licking the bars when he was

12

sleepwalking?

13

A.

That’s -- that’s -- the guards said, hey, it looks like

14

he’s sleepwalking.

I don’t know, he’s leaning up against it -- it

15

looks like he’s sleeping -- he’s licking the bars.

16

Q.

Okay, so did you talk to the doctor about that conduct?

17

A.

I hardly get a chance to talk to the doctor at all really.

18

Q.

So you never heard back from the doctor that that may be a

19

side effect of medication that he’s taking?

20

A.

No.

No doc’s ever told me that, sir.

And I’m not a

21

scientist, so I can’t speak intelligently on the side effects of any

22

drugs at all.

23

on.

And I didn’t even know what kind of medications he’s

4425

08312

1

Q.

If a -- if a doctor told you that that was a side effect of

2

the medication, would that make you -- would that allay some of your

3

concerns that this is odd behavior?

4

A.

It might, sir.

But then -- I mean, if the doc’ told me

5

that, I’d say, hey, sir, how come nobody else on the med’s do that?

6

That would be my next question.

7

Q.

Okay, so you would -- you’d inquire some more then?

8

A.

Yeah, that would be my next question if I -- if a doc’

9
10

said, yeah, this is his -- this is the side effect of the med’s.
Q.

And if the doctor answered that question with a response

11

that made you feel comfortable with, would you then think this is an

12

odd behavior?

13

A.

14

ain’t normal.

15

Q.

It’s odd, sir.

Don’t nobody else be doing that, so that

But -- but ----

No, I mean if the doctor told you that there was a medical

16

reason for it, not a mental health issue, and calmed your concerns on

17

that, then you could discount that as a -- as a red flag for you?

18
19
20
21
22
23

A.

Not necessarily, sir.

I mean it’s still troubling.

Not as

much as if he was doing it on purpose.
Q.

Okay.

And then the other odd behavior, what -- you -- I

think you said sword fighting?
A.

Yes, sir.

And I can’t remember what else was logged in.

-- I don’t remember all that was logged in.

4426

I

08313

1

Q.

Did you -- you talked to the guards about this, right?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And did they ever tell you that that was pretty normal

4

behavior for people who were on MAX?

5
6

A.

Sir, I’ve -- once upon a time I did work in special

quarters.

7

Q.

Right.

8

A.

I’ve never seen anybody do any of these things.

9

So if the

guards were like that’s normal for people on MAX to be doing.

10

-- I’d raise the BS flag because I don’t see it.

11

I’d see lots of people doing it.

12

wouldn’t be uncommon.

13

been talking about it outside.

14

it wouldn’t have caught my ear the way it did.

15

Q.

That’s

If he was normal,

Maybe not everybody, but it

And if it was normal, guards wouldn’t have
And it wouldn’t -- if it was normal,

So you -- you would have -- if a guard told you, hey --

16

then Gunny Sergeant -- yeah, we seen him sword fighting or playing

17

peek-a-boo with the mirror, or dancing in his cell, but we see other

18

people do similar conduct because they’re just bored in their cells

19

because they’re there 23 hours a day?

20

A.

But they didn’t tell me that.

21

Q.

No, I’m saying if they told you that, you would say BS to

A.

If they said everybody’s doing it?

22
23

that?

4427

08314

1

Q.

No, that it’s not that uncommon?

2

A.

If they’re telling me everybody’s doing it, then, okay, I

3

guess it’s common.

4

Q.

Like I said I’ve never seen it before.

And if a mental health doctor told you that all of those

5

behaviors are normal behaviors for somebody who’s board and is not

6

indicative of a mental health disorder or concern, would that allay

7

your concerns and say, okay, that’s not odd behavior?

8
9

A.

It may have -- it’s still odd, sir.

normal for me to find people that do it.

It’s odd unless it’s

If he says, hey, I can see

10

why he’d be doing it, he’s on MAX custody.

I’m like, hey, sir,

11

there’s lots of people on MAX custody, but he’s the only one doing

12

it.

So that’s still not normal.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

If there’s only one person doing it, it ain’t normal.

15

Q.

So then -- so we’ve got the behaviors that you -- I know

16

you can’t remember them all, but some -- some behaviors you believe

17

that are odd.

18

that, you know, basically August to January 1st timeframe?

Then you’ve got no being talkative.

Anything else for

19

A.

That he did?

20

Q.

That you factored in for why you thought POI would be

21

appropriate?

22

A.

23

Oh, he isolated himself.

anybody except maybe his attorneys.

4428

He didn’t communicate with

08315

1

Q.

Okay, but ----

2

A.

Not -- well ----

3

Q.

I think that’s the non-talkative.

4

isolation or?

5

A.

Are you saying further

Didn’t write any letters to anybody.

He tried to send one

6

letter out one time that I remember that had a woman’s name on it.

7

think he sent like two or three letters fairly early on.

8

where it was sent out under a -- under a woman’s name.

9
10

Q.

And let’s talk about that for a moment.

I

I mean one

When he sent a

letter out under a woman’s name; that was Brianna Manning?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And for you that was a red flag?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

Because he was trying to send out a letter under a female’s

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And why else was that a red flag for you?

18

A.

Because he told me he thought he was a woman once upon a

15

name?

19

time.

20

normal, sir.

21

Q.

Okay, but that wouldn’t be a justification for POI would

A.

In itself, no.

22
23

And now he’s sending a letter out as a woman.

That’s not

it?
On top of other things, it’s a factor.

4429

08316

1

Q.

And why would you have that as a factor?

2

A.

‘Cause, sir -- I mean that’s not -- when you add that on

3

top of the other things we’ve talked about, this is just another

4

thing that shows that he’s stable -- not stable.

5

originally where it says apparently stable, it’s not apparent.

That’s why

6

Q.

Okay, so you thought because he thought that one point ----

7

A.

That was a reason for concern.

8

Q.

I’m sorry?

9

A.

That -- yeah, that’s a reason for concern as well -- that

10

on top of everything else.

If that was the only thing and all the

11

other things just didn’t exist, no, I wouldn’t recommend somebody to

12

be a POI just for that sole one -- tried to send a letter out with a

13

woman’s name.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

I mean if we go down these things -- I mean, his family

Anything else you can think of?

16

history -- poor family history, again, that itself does not make

17

somebody, you know, a huge -- you know, cause for concern?

18

it is a cause for concern, again, especially stacked up on all the

19

things we’ve talked about.

20

Q.

I mean,

You’d agree, I guess, with the poor family history if -- if

21

you don’t have close relationships with your family there’s not a lot

22

you can do about that.

23

A.

That that’s just the way it is.

No, I wouldn’t agree with you.

4430

08317

1

Q.

Okay, please tell me what you think then?

2

A.

I have a poor relationship with somebody in my family?

3

Q.

Right.

4

A.

There are ways that I can try to correct that. I mean

5

anybody can do that.

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

It’s not once I have a poor relationship with somebody in

8

my family it’s forever be that way.

9

it’s not like it’s destined to be that way so I’m not going to do

10

nothing about it.

11

to anyway.

12
13
14
15
16
17

Q.

Okay.

It may forever be that way, but

Yeah, you can do something about it.

You can try

So -- all right, so then you would think that PFC

Manning would try to improve his family relationships?
A.

I wouldn’t expect him to.

doesn’t want to.
Q.

I mean if he doesn’t want to, he

But he could.

And until he does that box is going to be checked “Poor

Family Relationships”?

18

A.

Until it’s no longer poor, it’s poor.

19

Q.

Okay, any other factors?

20

A.

Until January 1st, sir, his -- again, his history, his

21

behavior, isolation, being withdrawn, not wanting to communicate, not

22

wanting to talk, and -- by January 1st that was starting to get

23

better.

But I mean -- I mean those were the main ones.

4431

Was there

08318

1

other things, yeah, there may have been, but I can’t remember

2

specifically.

3

head right now.

But those were, you know, the things that come to my

4

Q.

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

6

Okay.
Your Honor, if we could just have another 10

minute comfort break and then I’ll continue.

7

MJ:

Okay.

8

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

MJ:

10 minutes, Your Honor.

Court is in recess until 1745 or 5:45.

10

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1737, 2 December 2012.]

11

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1751, 2 December

12

2012.]

13

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session’s called to order. Let the

14

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

15

again present in court.

16

Coombs.

The witness is on the witness stand.

17

[Continued cross-examination.]

18

Q.

19

Mr.

Master Sergeant Blenis, I remind you that you’re still

under oath?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Now after you heard about the behavior from the guards,

22
23

that’s when you went to the Brig CO and told him about it, correct?
A.

Yes, sir.

4432

08319

1
2

Q.

And after that it was ordered that if PFC Manning did any

stuff that was considered odd that it would be logged in?

3

A.

Correct, sir.

4

Q.

And that was what Chief Averhart said.

5

He ordered that

basically?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And you’d seen that these logbooks -- you’d seen logbooks

8
9

before but only in pretty special circumstances, correct?
A.

Yes, sir.

Those prisoners on suicide watch -- have I seen

10

a logbook designed just for one person before?

11

you are right, it’s rare.

12

Q.

All right.

I have, but that’s --

And Chief Averhart didn’t want this to be

13

logged into the special quarter’s logbook with other entries,

14

correct?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

He wanted it to be in a separate logbook?

17

A.

Correct, sir.

18

Q.

And he wanted it in one area instead of having to search

19
20

for any sort of odd behavior in the larger logbook, right?
A.

Correct, sir.

It -- it was -- originally it went in a

21

suicide watch logbook.

The problem with that is if I had -- let’s

22

just say I had person on suicide watch at the time, now I would have

23

entries regarding this person on suicide watch and then entries that

4433

08320

1

may pertain to PFC Manning.

2

around.

3

- wouldn’t became a problem, so we just -- that where the individual

4

logbook came out.

5

Q.

That’s why the -- the other logbook came

We just stopped doing the suicide watch logbook that would -

And you told -- you told the defense that the -- another

6

reason why he wanted a log book was “Because by the time that came

7

around, you saw the direction this whole thing was going.

8

knew stuff was going to be getting asked.”

And you

9

A.

Probably, sir.

10

Q.

And you also said “By the time we already saw that his

11

lawyer was really involved in making complaints, and you saw the

12

direction that this potentially was going to come.

13

people were starting to make phone calls and asking questions”?

And a lot more

14

A.

That sounds about right, sir.

15

Q.

So after this anything that was considered odd was going to

16

be documented in this separate logbook?

17

A.

Correct, sir.

18

Q.

Now I want to go through some of the behaviors with you

19

‘cause those behaviors that were logged in the logbook were

20

ultimately captured also in Chief Averhart’s weekly report, correct?

21

A.

22

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

23

Yes, sir.

I’m pretty sure I did.
I’m handing you again Enclosure 22 [handing

the document to the witness].

4434

08321

1

Q.

And let’s go through the odd behaviors that were

2

identified.

And the first one is from the 1 December weekly report,

3

which is Page 49 of 109.

4

A.

I’m sorry.

5

Q.

Yeah.

6

So if you would turn to that.

You said 49?

And it’s actually on Page 50 is the entry.

And it’s

Number 3.

7

[The witness looked at the document as directed.]

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

So you see there where PFC Manning was apparently observed

10

dancing in front of the mirror of his cell?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And in this one week this was the only odd behavior that

13

PFC Manning apparently did, correct?

14

A.

Yes, sir, that’s the only thing that was logged in.

15

Q.

And so that would mean to you that’s the only thing he did?

16

A.

That’s the only thing I’m considering ‘cause that’s -- I

17

haven’t been told about anything else.

18

the logbook.

19

Q.

All right.

20

A.

I -- I -- I don’t know, sir.

21

Q.

Is dancing considered exercising, which would be prohibited

22
23

And that’s the only thing in

Do you know if he was told to stop dancing?

under, I guess, the brig rules?
A.

I wouldn’t consider dancing exercising.

4435

I guess anything

08322

1
2
3

active is exercising.
Q.

But I -- I wouldn’t call dancing exercising.

Did the brig staff, when they logged this, tell you

basically how PFC Manning was dancing; what he was doing?

4

A.

They may have, sir.

5

specifically.

6

Q.

They might of.

I don’t -- I don’t recall
I just wrote “dancing.”

All right, so then if we turn to the 8 December report,

7

which would be Page 53 of 109, you see there were apparently the

8

logbook noted that on 1 December, PFC Manning was posing and flexing

9

his muscles in front of the mirror in his cell?

You see that?

10

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And so, again, that’s the only odd thing that was

12

documented for this week?

13

A.

Correct, sir.

14

Q.

Now have you -- looking at that, do you consider that to be

15

odd behavior?

16

A.

It’s extremely strange and unorthodox -- and just -- like

17

out there in left field, sir.

Like licking your bars?

Naw, naw.

I

18

mean, you don’t normally find prisoners doing that -- I don’t think

19

you’ll ever find prisoners doing that.

But in itself, naw.

20

Q.

And I’ll -- I mean --

21

A.

It’s not extreme.

22

Q.

-- I’ll confess for me, I’ve done that myself in the past.

23

I’ve posed in front of a mirror, flexed my muscles.

4436

Have you ever

08323

1

done that yourself?

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

Never?

4

A.

No, sir.

5

let’s ----

6
7

I -- I -- if I have, I mean, I don’t -- sure,

Q.

Do you know if the guards told PFC Manning to stop flexing

his muscles in front of -- the mirror?

8

A.

They may have, sir, I don’t know.

9

Q.

Would that have been documented in any way?

10

A.

If they told him to stop doing it?

11

Q.

Right.

12

A.

No, sir.

I mean it would be documented if they said stop

13

doing it and then he kept doing, and now it became like a

14

disobedience type thing.

15

don’t know if he was or not, it would be something that’s just -- a

16

verbal correction -- you don’t document every verbal correction you

17

make.

18

tell you to stop doing something, you stop doing -- especially if he

19

stops doing it.

20

But, again, if he was told to stop, which I

I mean, that’s a lot of writing for unnecessary stuff.

Q.

Okay, so if you turn to Page 56 of 109.

If I

This is from the

21

15 December weekly report.

And now we’ve got three separate things

22

that are noted both on 8 December, 9 December -- or both on 8 and 9

23

December I should say.

4437

08324

1

MJ:

What page?

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

3

MJ:

Okay.

4

Q.

So on 8 December he’s observed standing in the middle of

Sorry, ma’am, Page 56 of 109.

5

his cell with his arms spread out staring at the floor.

6

what he was doing there?

7
8
9
10

A.

[Looking at the document] Standing with his arms spread out

and staring at the floor.
Q.

Well do -- did you get any sort of report to indicate a

guard --

11

A.

If I did -- if I did --

12

Q.

-- approaching him.

13

A.

-- I don’t recall, sir.

14

documented here.

I mean alls I know is what’s

I can’t remember.

15

Q.

Did you consider that odd behavior?

16

A.

Again, you don’t find prisoners doing that.

17

different.

18

more odd things I can do.

19
20

Do you know

Q.

Again, is it extreme odd?

No.

So it’s

I mean there’s plenty of

Well, was this one of the odd behaviors that you factored

in when we talked about why you had him in POI?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

Did you approach PFC Manning and ask him, hey, why on 8

23

Anything that was put in there, yes, sir.

December were you standing with your arms spread out?

4438

08325

1
2

A.

If I did I don’t remember specifically, sir.

I mean -- I

can’t remember.

3

Q.

Then we see on 9 December, PFC Manning apparently was

4

dancing in his cell.

5

upon you.

6

A.

And here you -- it says the entry was based

Is that correct?
[Looking at the document] Yes, sir, I asked him what kind

7

of -- it looks like I asked him, hey, what you mean he was dancing?

8

How was he dancing?

9

something to make me ask an extra question it looks like.

10

Q.

Or what was he doing?

Or -- they wrote or said

I mean did you actually see PFC Manning dancing in the

11

“aria toc”[phonetic] dancing style or is that what was reported to

12

you?

13
14
15

A.

No, that was reported to me.

It says I was informed.

I --

I never saw him dancing in his cell.
Q.

All right.

And then you see 9 December where it’s

16

annotated that PFC Manning has previously been observed -- so -- I

17

don’t know if that’s on that day or another day, playing peek-a-boo

18

with himself in his cell mirror.

Do you see that?

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Correct, sir.

20

Q.

Now did you consider that odd behavior?

21

A.

Yes, sir, again it’s not -- it’s not normal.

22

Q.

Did you approach PFC Manning about that as his counselor

23

and ask him about it?

4439

08326

1

A.

If I did I don’t remember specifically, sir.

2

Q.

And -- and if we could let’s just go back real fast to 1

3

December and look at your counseling notes.

4

Page 49.

5

[The witness did as directed.]

6

Q.

That would be back on

You said towards the end of December going into the first

7

part of January, you had this moment when you were walking out of the

8

confinement facility where you thought, you know, what, maybe I’m

9

going to recommend that he go down to MDI.

10

Do you recall saying

that?

11

A.

Yes, sir, I -- I was talking to Staff Sergeant Jordan.

12

Q.

All right.

13

him as being quiet.

So we see in 1 December where you still report
Do you see that?

14

A.

[No response.]

15

Q.

And, in fact, you say he’s more quiet than usual and seems

16

less interested in engaging in conversation?

17

A.

Where are we at, sir?

18

Q.

On 1 December, Page 49.

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

20

Q.

All right, so at least at that point there’s been no real

21

change, right?

22

A.

What do you mean?

23

Q.

Right.

His communication with me, sir?

4440

08327

1

A.

No, by -- by 1 December he was talking to me more.

And

2

then maybe -- maybe this week he talked to me less that week than he

3

had the week or two before.

4

evolving -- there was no progressing at this point.

5

-- maybe this week -- it just didn’t that day.

6

Q.

But there -- there was -- there was no
Maybe this time

All right, so some of -- I guess some of your eval’s more

7

capture where he was more talkative with you or less just depending

8

upon the day?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean it’s a weekly report -- depending on that

10

week in general.

I know by 1 -- by December 1st, we had -- our

11

communication had gotten better.

12

maybe just been that day or that time or sometime that week while I

13

was writing this report, he was quiet more -- more than usually.

This one that this is referring to

14

Q.

Can you go to 15 December, which would be Page 55?

15

[The witness did as directed.]

16

Q.

Do you see there where it says SND stated he was doing

17

well; had no problems or concerns?

SND was quiet during the

18

interview and showed no interest in conversation.

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

20

Q.

So was this just another day where maybe he wasn’t as

21
22
23

talkative with you?
A.

It may have been, sir.

I can’t remember what happened 15

December 2010.

4441

08328

1
2

Q.

Okay, but -- I guess, in general, you thought starting

sometime before 1 December things were getting better.

3

A.

Yes, sir.

If I remember correctly, I mean, this is a long

4

timeframe.

5

conversation.

6

but it wasn’t a “never” issue anymore.

I remember by November we were probably getting clearer
Not every time we spoke was it a great conversation,

7

Q.

Okay, can you look at Page 58?

8

[The witness did as directed.]

9

Q.

This is from your 22 -- this would be your 20 December, but

10

it’s on the 22 December report through.

11

upset about something, but when asked SND did not speak about what

12

was bothering him.

13

conversation with him but he didn’t want to speak to you about

14

whatever was bothering him.

15

that?

16

It says here at SND was

So apparently you were trying to have a

I mean you guessed at it.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

So it -- I got the

17

impression that something was bothering him.

18

if he was okay -- if something was bothering him.

19

didn’t want to speak about it.

20

Q.

Okay.

Do you see

I asked if something -And he said he

So the odd behavior, and I guess these weekly

21

eval’s, at least at the times when he’s not speaking to you, those

22

things were not so important that it caused you to think at least in

23

early January when you testified earlier, that they weighed so

4442

08329

1

heavily that I’m not going to now recommend him to come off of POI.

2

Remember when you’re walking out with Jordan?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And you said, you know, what, I think -- I think I’m going

5

to do it now.

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

So all the stuff that we’ve just talked about in just maybe

I’m going to recommend that he come off of POI?

8

the two to three weeks previous to this time period where now you’re

9

going to recommend him come off of POI, that stuff didn’t weigh very

10

heavily in your mind then?

11

A.

It did, sir.

12

I was considering it.

13

-

That’s why I didn’t recommend him come off.
And that’s why when we were talking about it -

14

Q.

Right.

15

A.

I mean we talked about it on a Friday, which means the C&A

16

board probably went on the same day, so I was probably telling him,

17

hey, I’m going to give him one more week and I think -- I didn’t say

18

I’m definitely doing it.

19

was serious kicking around the idea.

20

One more week.

I said I’d -- I think I am.

Q.

Okay, and then ----

22

A.

So why did I get those feelings specifically?

trying to ask me what I was thinking two years ago.

4443

I

I mean I was damn near ready.

21

23

And I was.

Sir, you’re

08330

1

Q.

I am.

So at least at this point you -- you don’t know

2

really why you were saying to yourself just one more week and I’m

3

going to do it?

4

A.

I can tell you, sir, that -- as I look at it right here,

5

when I told Staff Sergeant Jordan, hey, one more week and I think I’m

6

about ready to recommend him coming off POI, I had good reason to

7

think that, sir.

8
9

Q.

What those reasons were?

All right.

I don’t remember.

Now did you -- I guess with Captain Hocter

leaving and you getting Colonel Malone now, did Colonel Malone’s

10

opinions when he started making the kind of same recommendations --

11

did that then kind of factor a little bit more for you?

12
13
14

A.

I don’t remember Colonel Malone being there in the middle

of December, sir.
Q.

I’m not talking about the middle of December.

When Captain

15

Hocter leaves on January 18th -- that’s really his last day doing

16

anything --

17

A.

Okay.

18

Q.

-- of 2011.

And you switch over to Colonel Malone.

19

Colonel Malone’s making the same type of recommendations as Captain

20

Hocter, right?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

He -- I think he recommended him coming off.

22

think he might have recommended staying on once.

23

look at the papers to see exactly what he wrote.

4444

I -- I’d have to

I

08331

1

Q.

All right.

But -- and we can look at the eval’s if you

2

want.

But would you agree with me that Colonel Malone was

3

consistently recommending that PFC Manning come off of POI?

4

least make it accurate, he was saying there was no clinical reason

5

for PFC Manning to be on POI?

Or at

6

A.

That -- that sounds familiar, sir.

7

Q.

And was Colonel Malone’s recommendation then -- was that a

8
9

factor that weighed more heavily than Captain Hocter’s?
A.

Yes, sir, because I remember being able to talk to Colonel

10

Malone more than -- now I didn’t talk to Colonel Malone every time.

11

And I think when he first came on deck he -- he did.

12

couple of times where he left where we didn’t get a chance to speak

13

with him.

14

he wasn’t clear on the expectation -- whatever.

15

communicate with him better.

16

comments.

17

that actually changed the eval’ form from the one that the brig was

18

using prior to it.

19

used previously to -- wherever he came from -- he wanted to use that.

20

I think that was him that changed that.

21

Q.

There was a

I think that was more he just didn’t -- maybe he -- maybe
But we did

I -- I do remember him making more

And if I’m not mistaken, I believe it was Colonel Malone

I think Colonel Malone brought a form that he had

And do you recall Colonel Malone -- when some of these

22

other behaviors that you were documenting and they were brought up to

23

him, do you recall Colonel Malone saying that these are not odd

4445

08332

1

behaviors that you need to worry about?

2
3

A.

He -- he may have.

don’t remember specifically.

4

Q.

I don’t doubt it.

I’d have to see.

But that sounds fairly accurate, sir.

Can you explain why then -- and let’s just start now from

5

right after the 18 January incident forward.

6

21 January, recommends that PFC Manning come off of POI, can you

7

explain why the board didn’t follow that recommendation?

8
9

A.

I

When Colonel Malone, on

Because now we’re talking about after the 18 January

incident, sir?

10

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

11

A.

We’re talk -- this is the squad bay if I remember correctly

12

-- on 18 January.

13

away from recommending him come off POI, this is before 18 January.

14

And then -- in fact, the 18 January incident, if I remember

15

correctly, the week I was about to recommend him coming off of POI --

16

if -- if I remember correctly.

17

Colonel Malone says, hey, he’s ready to come off.

18

consider it?

19

18 incident happened as well.

20

Q.

Now -- and when I felt like, hey, I’m about a week

Sure.

Then that incident happened.
Yeah.

And

Did we

I also had to consider that this whole January

Okay, but you said now you’ve got a doctor that you

21

communicate better with and you apparently like the new form that

22

he’s using.

23

259.

So I want to show you Page 24 from Enclosure 21 of AE

And I’ll retrieve -- just so you don’t have too many things in

4446

08333

1

front of you Enclosure 22 and also Enclosure 32 [handing documents to

2

the witness and retrieving documents as indicated].

3

Malone’s mental eval’, correct?

This is Colonel

4

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And what does he say about the need for POI?

6

A.

[Reading from the document] No current suicidal thoughts or

7

intent.

8

Q.

9

Psychiatrically cleared to come off of POI.
All right.

So I’ll retrieve the exhibit from you

[retrieving the document from the witness].

So here when you’re

10

looking at that as a board member, and you were the senior board

11

member for the 21 January board, why didn’t you at that point

12

recommend PFC Manning to come off of POI?

13

A.

This after January 18?

14

Q.

Yes.

15

A.

The January 18 incident had a huge factor in it.

16

Q.

And how so?

17

A.

Because as far as his conduct, behavior, communication, all

18

that, then that incident happened.

19

one he had in Kuwait.

Was the ----

That incident very similar to the

20

Q.

And what did that mean to you, I guess?

21

A.

That he’s having an incident that’s almost identical to the

22

one that had -- he had in Kuwait right before he made a noose in his

23

cell, I’m like, do I expect that coming next?

4447

08334

1
2

Q.

Did you talk to Colonel Malone, now that he’s more

accessible, about your concerns?

3

A.

I probably did, sir.

I mean, do I remember specifically,

4

no.

5

times where he did come in and we didn’t get a chance to speak with

6

him.

7

don’t remember if I talked to him that day about that incident.

8

I can’t remember.

9

Like I said, when he first came on deck there was a couple of

And sometimes we did and sometimes we didn’t speak with him.

Q.

I --

All right, do you recall ever speaking to Colonel Malone

10

about his subsequent eval’ -- recommendations that PFC Manning --

11

there’s no clinical reason for him to be on POI?

12

A.

I

Sir, I remember speaking with Colonel Malone.

I don’t

13

remember the context of any of the conversations.

14

speaking to him a couple of times, not every time he came there.

15

the answer to that question is -- do I specifically remember speaking

16

to him about that, no, I don’t.

17

Q.

And I remember
So

But I guess you -- you’re saying earlier if I had a doctor

18

that I could actually talk to and get him or her to express to me why

19

they’re making their recommendation that would weigh more.

20

that’s something I’d really want.

21

Did you take the opportunity to talk to the doctor more?

So now you’ve got that doctor.

22

A.

I did speak with him, sir.

23

Q.

And what was he telling you?

4448

And

08335

1

A.

I don’t remember the context of the conversations at all,

3

Q.

Do you remember your questions at all?

4

A.

No, sir.

2

5

sir.

I don’t remember the context of the

conversations.

6

Q.

Okay.

So let’s talk -- the trial counsel asked you a

7

question about this, but I want to go into a little more detail on

8

it.

9
10

[Pause]
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

435 Echo.

12

witness].

I’m handing you what’s been marked Appellate

Do you recognize this [handing the document to the

13

Q.

Do you recognize this?

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

15

Q.

All right, so this in res -- basically dealing with a

16
17
18
19
20

package that you received from Amazon.com, correct?
A.

Yes, sir; the one that came in from the construction

workers.
Q.

Right.

And it was on 13 December 2010 that you received

this package that was addressed to PFC Manning?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And you asked PFC Manning about it.

23

And he thought it --

it might be from a family member sending him something for his

4449

08336

1

upcoming birthday?

2

A.

Correct, sir.

3

Q.

And in this instance his birthday is December 17th?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And you said that the reason you sent the package back

6

because PFC Manning had not previously requested the package from

7

Amazon?

8

A.

That and one other reason, sir.

9

Q.

Yeah.

10

And the other reason was because there was no pre-

approval given by the Brig OIC for the package?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And then because we felt like being dicks?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

All right, well I want to concentrate on the one I asked

15

you about then.

16
17

A.

And also the manner in which it came in.

Why’d you write that?

I was joking with Chief Warrant Officer Averhart and Master

Sergeant Papakie.

18

Q.

You were joking about this?

19

A.

Yes, sir, I was joking with them.

20

Q.

So you thought it was funny that you sent the package back?

21

A.

No, not that I sent the package back.

Q.

Apparently you have a -- then why did you think this was a

22
23

I was joking about -

---

4450

08337

1

funny joke?

2

A.

I was joking with them as far as my verbiage.

3

Q.

Your verbiage of saying we felt like being dicks?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And this verbiage is going to your commander, is that

6

correct?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And going to your immediate supervisor?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And when you sent those comments did you view those as

11

professional?

12

A.

13

professional.

14

Q.

No.

I mean it wouldn’t fall under the definition of

No they wouldn’t.

So then when you looked at that as --

15

from the prospective of being PFC Manning’s counselor, did you think

16

that that was being professional?

17

A.

Sir, this is sent in-house to Master Sergeant Papakie and

18

to Chief Warrant Officer Averhart.

This -- the exact paragraph with

19

a period instead of a comma after Brig OIC is either in another email

20

or maybe a CORMIS note, this exact part is someplace else.

21

Q.

I’m sorry?

22

A.

This exact paragraph without the last six words in the

23

comma at the period, that is someplace else.

4451

It’s either in CORMIS

08338

1

someplace or it’s in somebody else’s email.

2

out.

3

might have put in CORMIS.

4

beginning of the paragraph.

It’s an email I sent

This is a draft of a response to something or a note that I
I see a 2 in the parenthesis at the

5

Q.

Right.

6

A.

So that tells me it might be in CORMIS ‘cause it looks like

7

part of a CORMIS entry.

8

Q.

But you actually sent this email --

9

A.

So if -- if -- so ----

10

Q.

-- in its entirety to your supervisor?

11

A.

Correct, sir.

12

Q.

And when you sent it to your supervisor -- you’re PFC

13

Manning’s counselor and, as you said, his advocate, is that correct?

14

A.

Correct, sir.

15

Q.

And you thought at this point based upon PFC Manning told

16

you that it could be a birthday package for him from a family member,

17

right?

18

A.

That’s what he told me.

He thought -- he thought it might

19

be a package -- my birthday’s coming up.

20

my family for my birthday.

21
22
23

Q.

Would -- would common sense be maybe we could take a look

at it, see what it is -A.

It might be a package from

Absolutely not, sir.

4452

08339

1

Q.

-- and then -- and then see based on the fact that it’s his

2

birthday and we’re worried about him not having a lot of interaction

3

with his family because he’s got a poor home life condition that

4

maybe would allow him to have the package.

5

A.

No, sir.

6

Q.

And why did it come in from a construction worker?

7

A.

The mailman dropped it off to him.

8

Q.

Well did you ask?

9

A.

I wasn’t there.

10

Q.

Well, did you find out how the construction worker brought

11

It came in from a construction worker.

I don’t know.

I didn’t receive it.

it to the brig?

12

A.

If I did, I don’t remember how the construction worker got

14

Q.

Did you know --

15

A.

But alls I know ----

16

Q.

-- that the -- there was construction right outside of the

17

brig, right?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

During that time?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And the construction was basically right in front of the

13

22
23

it.

Correct?

brig going up towards the front entrance of the brig, correct?
A.

Yes, sir.

4453

08340

1

Q.

Would it make sense to you that a UPS driver might give it

2

to the construction worker, and then the construction worker sees

3

that it’s addressed to the brig, and bring it to the brig?

4

A.

Do I see it as being possible?

Yes.

Does it make sense?

5

Absolutely not.

And it also makes sense that this construction

6

worker could also very well be bringing us a package that, you know,

7

is some kind of threat being we were receiving all kinds of threats

8

over the phone.

9

Q.

Okay.

So you thought that ----

10

A.

That seemed more realistic to me than the post office just

11

delivering it to a random construction worker on the side of the

12

road.

13
14

Q.

So you thought the construction worker delivering the

package it could be a potential danger to the brig?

15

A.

Absolutely, sir.

16

Q.

What did you guys do with the package?

17

A.

I don’t -- I don’t deal with the mail, sir.

18

the package.

19

mailroom, they processed it and returned it somehow I think, sir.

20
21
22
23

I never saw

I didn’t touch the package that I remember.

The

Q.

So you didn’t call EOD or bomb disposal or anything like

A.

What the direction was from that point, sir, I don’t know.

that?

Again, the mailroom didn’t fall under me.

4454

I didn’t deal with the

08341

1

mailroom and the disposal or receipt of or, you know, disposition of

2

mail.

3
4

Q.

didn’t reprimand you, correct?

5
6

Now I guess at the time you sent this email, Chief Averhart

A.
have.

If he did verbally -- I mean, not in an email.

But he may

But, I mean, I don’t remember specifically if he did or not.

7

Q.

You don’t remember your commander reprimanding you?

8

A.

Not in writing, sir.

9

No.

I definitely never received

anything in writing.

10

Q.

How about verbally?

11

A.

If I did, I don’t remember, sir.

12

Q.

Well it looks like the commander sends back in just a --

13

you crazy, Gunny.

Is that what you see?

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

15

Q.

So that’s his response to this?

16

A.

That’s his written response, yes, sir.

17

Q.

So did you think he thought what you said was funny?

18

A.

Sir, when I received this email that was the last of this

19

whole paragraph aside from me deleting that part and either putting

20

it in CORMIS or sending it on the email to -- I think it was a CORMIS

21

note on CORMIS ----

22
23

Q.

Well that’s not my question.

that this was just a joke.

You said you sent a joke --

So his response did you think he thought

4455

08342

1

what you said was funny?

2

A.

3

funny or not.

4

Q.

5

Really didn’t think whether he did or did not think it was

Were there other instances where you’ve behaved

unprofessionally with respect to PFC Manning?

6

A.

Not that I can think of specifically.

8

Q.

Nothing comes to mind?

9

A.

Nothing comes to mind specifically, no.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

[Pause]

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

I mean I -- I don’t

know.

I’m showing you -- actually I’m going to

13

retrieve from you what’s been marked Appellate Exhibit 435 Echo, and

14

handing you Appellate Exhibit 435 Fox [retrieving the documents and

15

handing the documents to the witness as indicated].

16

Q.

In this email you basically write, if you’re cold the

17

latest issue of Manning Times should help warm you [reading from the

18

document].

19

A.

What did you mean by that?
The -- at this point in the brig the heat was out in the

20

brig.

And I don’t remember if it’s before or after the CO had

21

contacted -- I can’t remember if it was Colonel Oltman or Colonel

22

Choike about the heat being out or something like that.

23

just a response to that.

4456

And this was

08343

1
2
3
4

Q.

So how did the -- how does the heat being out at the brig

and reading PFC Manning’s report ---A.

I knew being cold inside the brig was an issue.

So and

this was being done ----

5

Q.

Well it seems like it’s a joke.

6

A.

I see it’s attached -- I see it’s attached, so this is me

7

sending them the weekly report.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

It wouldn’t keep them warm, sir.

10

And why would that help keep ‘em warm?
This is me -- this is me

probably touting them about being cold or something like that.

11

Q.

So you didn’t mean that as a joke about PFC Manning?

12

A.

No that’s not a joke about Manning.

13
14

That’s me talking

about them being cold meaning the Brig staff.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay, so I’m retrieving Appellate Exhibit

15

435 Fox and handing you Appellate Exhibit 435 Gulf [retrieving the

16

documents and handing documents to the witness as indicated].

17

Q.

Do you recognize that?

18

A.

[Looking at the document.]

19

Q.

This apparently is on -- do you recognize that email?

20

A.

I think so, sir.

21

Q.

Yeah, and on 4 March 2011, you receive this email from

I ----

I mean I see I’m on the cc line.

22

Master Sergeant Papakie, and he says “Gents, make sure he’s not

23

standing naked at attention for evening count right before taps.

4457

You

08344

1

should be taking his panties right before he lays down.”

2

that?

Do you see

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

Did you ever personally refer to PFC Manning’s underwear as

5

panties?

6

A.

I probably did, sir.

7

Q.

And why did you refer to them as panties?

8

A.

That -- I refer to underwear as panties all the time.

9

Q.

So you call your underwear panties?

10

A.

Sometimes I do, sir.

11

Q.

And that’s just how you -- you don’t associate panties with

12
13
14

female underwear?
A.

Yes, sir.

But, I mean, I sometimes call underwear in

general as panties.

15

Q.

That’s your testimony?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Did you ever lie to PFC Manning about the fact that Captain

18

Hocter wasn’t recommending that he come off of POI?

19

A.

No, sir.

20

Q.

You never told him that Captain Hocter is the one who’s

21

keeping him on POI?

22

A.

No, sir.

23

Q.

That’s your testimony?

4458

08345

1

A.

No, sir, I don’t ever remember saying that.

2

Q.

You never remember telling him, hey, look it’s the doc’s

3
4

that are keeping you on POI?
A.

I wish I had 100 Mannings?

I remember saying -- telling -- I remember saying I wish I

5

had 100 Mannings from just -- and I don’t think it’s part of my

6

quote.

7

a discipline standpoint, he was a zero discipline problem at all.

8
9

Q.

A.

11

either.

12

Q.

14

You don’t remember ever telling him though it was the

doctors that were keeping him on POI and not you?

10

13

But from a discipline standpoint and to this day, yeah, from

Not that I recall, sir.

And it wasn’t me keep him on

I just make a recommendation.
You would agree that your recommendation was pretty

important?
A.

It was important.

I’m assuming.

15

better question for the commanding officer.

16

my recommendation was important.

17
18
19
20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I mean he -- that’s a
But -- yeah, I -- I hope

I’m retrieving Appellate Exhibit 435 Gulf

from the witness [retrieving the document from the witness].
Q.

I want to talk about some of the things that PFC Manning

was counseled for.

21

A.

Like -- you talking about discipline?

22

Q.

Just in general.

23

A.

Like from the guard staff?

4459

08346

1

Q.

Yeah.

So I’m going to hand you again Enclosure 22 from

2

Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing the document to the witness].

3

you’d turn to Page 62.

4

[The witness did as directed.]

5

Q.

If

One of the first notations I see about PFC Manning being

6

counseled was on 25 December 2010.

And here you see he’s being

7

counseled because he re -- he apparently requested to end his

8

recreation call early but didn’t fill out the paperwork.

9

correct?

Is that

10

A.

[Looking at the document]

11

Q.

It’s at Number 3.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And you apparently then counseled him that the written

14

statement is not designed to be adverse in nature but only for

15

documentation purposes?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.

Okay, I remember explaining to him

17

the purpose of -- in this case the voluntary statement for securing

18

rec’ call.

19
20
21

Q.

Now in this instance here what were you telling him to do

A.

I’m not telling him to do anything.

then?
I was explaining to

22

him that the voluntary statement he’s written, it’s not punitive.

23

Because I think this is right after he told us that he was instructed

4460

08347

1

by either you or another member of the defense team not to sign

2

anything inside the brig.

3

then this rec’ call incident comes up, and then the guards ask him to

4

fill out a voluntary statement, which he had previously as far as --

5

I’m pretty sure he probably had previously.

6

And then I explained to him that the voluntary statement saying, hey,

7

you don’t want rec’ call -- that you want your rec’ call ended early

8

or don’t want it at all, it’s just you putting it on paper saying

9

that this is your choice and it’s not the brig refusing it to you.

10
11
12
13

Q.

And I think at this point this is where --

And then he stopped.

And did you inform him that he needed to fill out the

forms?
A.

No, I never said, hey, you have to fill it out -- I mean

this is a requirement.

You have to fill it out.

14

Q.

So he could refuse to fill out the form?

15

A.

Sure he could.

16
17
18
19

I mean if that was the case then we would

just write an incident report.
Q.

And would he be -- when you say “incident report” what do

you mean?
A.

If -- and this is anything, but we’ll use rec’ call for an

20

example; you don’t want to go out to rec’ call, okay, hey, please

21

fill out a voluntary statement saying you’re opting to not go out to

22

recreation call today.

23

punitive in nature.

I don’t want to sign that.

Look, it’s not

It’s just you putting on paper that you don’t

4461

08348

1

want to go out to recreation call, that the brig’s not denying it.

2

ain’t signing nothing.

3

or DBS, they’re going to fill out an incident report saying, hey, on

4

this date and time, you know, prisoner so-and-so was allowed to --

5

was offered to go out to recreation call.

6

there.

7

didn’t want to write it.

8

voluntary statement is not punitive; we’re just putting it on

9

documentation the reason.

Okay, good to go.

I

At that point that guard

He chose not to go out

We asked him to write a voluntary statement.

He said he

We explained to him that writing a

He still says he’s not signing anything.

10

So now I’m writing an incident report just to annotate that he hasn’t

11

been -- he don’t want to go to rec’ call and he didn’t want to

12

provide a statement.

13

Q.

All right.

14

A.

That’s about the gist of what the voluntary -- or the

15

incident report would say.

16

Q.

Okay.

Turn to Page 89 now.

17

[The witness did as directed.]

18

Q.

This is Number 4 on this.

On 28 February, PFC Manning

19

apparently lined out several areas of the form after declining

20

apparently rec’ call.

21

he wasn’t permitted to alter the form but he didn’t have to fill it

22

out.

23

And according to the report he was told that

Do you recall this?
A.

[Looking at the document] I think so, sir.

4462

Yes, sir, I

08349

1

remember.

2

this.

I don’t remember the incident, but I -- I remember typing

3

Q.

And why couldn’t PFC Manning alter the form?

4

A.

It’s an OBDVS[phonetic]form, sir.

5

form we don’t just modify the forms.

6

designed.

7

I mean, I don’t even know if I ever saw this.

8

have.

9

we don’t modify.

10
11

I mean, any kind of DD

We fill out the form as it’s

I’m not -- I don’t remember what he -- how he modified it.
Honestly, I might

But however he modified it, but an actual standardized form,

Q.

You fill out as it is created.

And apparently after that he was counseled by the Brig OIC

for modifying the form?

12

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Other than this, do you recall any sort of conduct by PFC

14
15
16
17
18
19

Manning that would indicate he was a disciplinary problem?
A.

Sir, until I read this I don’t remember any incidents of

him being a discipline problem.
Q.

And would you -- I think you just said earlier that that’s

why you would have said I wish I had 100 Mannings?
A.

Right, from a discipline standpoint.

20

he’s -- zero trouble.

21

DR’s a week.

22

problems.

23

Q.

Yes, sir.

I mean

I’ve had certain prisoners -- give them two

You know, from a discipline standpoint, he -- no

All right, so now let’s talk about the 18 January incident,

4463

08350

1

okay?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

On 18 January what do you recall happening?

4

A.

I wasn’t there when it happened, sir, so -- the -- from

5

what I remember the incident that happened was -- I guess he -- he’s

6

getting taken down to a dorm -- the recreation dorm.

7

know if it was either in special quarters on the way to the dorm or

8

actually in the dorm -- he was counseled by Tankersley -- Tankersley

9

about something.

I can’t remember now.

And I don’t

It might have been rank --

10

using rank -- something like standing at parade rest, sir.

11

remember now.

12

down to the dorm.

13

remembering a report -- I guess the restraints were removed and then

14

-- I don’t know immediately or shortly after, I guess he had some

15

kind of anxiety attack or a panic attack or something like that.

16

he went and hid behind a machine or something like that.

17

at some point it got resolved and he did recreation call and went

18

back to his cell later on.

19
20
21
22
23

Q.

I can’t

He’s counseled about something, corrected, brought
And when he got to the dorm he -- this is me

And

I -- I --

Do you recall an incident afterwards where you ultimately

then came down to PFC Manning’s cell to talk to him?
[The trial counsel’s microphone and subsequent recording began
to pick up feedback distortion noises.]
A.

Yes, sir, after all that happened -- the recreation call

4464

08351

1

happened and he went down to his cell -- sometime after -- and I

2

don’t know how much longer -- later, he came down -- or I found out

3

about it.

4

quarters and talking to him.

5

down.

6

but I mean he -- he wasn’t like acting out.

7

At that point I ended up coming down to -- down to special
By that point he was already calmed

He was agitated, but -- I think he was upset about something,

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: I’m showing you what’s been marked as Appellate

8

Exhibit 435 Hotel [handing the document to the witness].

9

play the video and have you look at that 435 Hotel along with the

10
11

I want to

video.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, one moment, please.

The United

12

States would at need to request time to verify that this is going to

13

be a verbatim transcript of the references they want.

14

defense’s motion it’s not accurate.

15

MJ:

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well what do you want to do?
Well, I guess it depends on the defense’s plan

17

going forward.

18

about 10 minutes to verify this -- our version.

If it’s just simply for reference then we’d ask for

19

MJ:

20

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

21
22
23

Even in the

All right.

I’ll let you do that.
20 minutes, ma’am.

How long do you want?

We’ll let you know if it’s

going to be longer.
MJ:

All right.

Court is in recess until five minutes to seven.

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1835, 2 December 2012.]

4465

08352

1

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1853, 2 December

2

2012.]

3

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

4

record reflect all parties present with the court last recessed are

5

again present in court.

6

Anything from the government?

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

8

MJ:

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

The witness is on the witness stand.

No, ma’am.

No objection?
No objection, Your Honor.

10

MJ:

11

[Continued cross-examination.]

12

Q.

Master Sergeant Blenis, I remind you you’re still under

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

What I’d like to do is I’d like to play the video that was

13

16

All right, proceed.

oath.

captured of you speaking to PFC Manning after he was ordered onto SR.

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Okay?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And below that -- the appellate exhibit you have is

21

basically almost a verbatim transcript.

22

information is hard to hear, but I want you to watch the video or

23

listen to the video and see what’s being said.

4466

It’s -- some of the

At the same time I’m

08353

1

going to ask you a few questions, okay?

2

A.

3

[The video as indicated was played in open court is full view of

4

Yes, sir.

all court participants.]

5

Q.

All right, I want to ask you a few -- a few questions about

6

that video.

And I know it wasn’t exactly verbatim, but you admit

7

that it was not normal to keep someone on POI for so long.

8

A.

No, sir.

9

Q.

What was the longest you’ve had somebody on POI at the

11

A.

During my -- while I was at Quantico this time?

12

Q.

Or anytime.

13

A.

Ever that I’ve seen probably a month probably was the

10

14

brig?

longest.

15

Q.

So PFC Manning was --

16

A.

By far the longest.

17

Q.

-- by far the longest?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And you indicate -- as we go on you say to PFC Manning,

20

we’re going to lessen your restrictions, but that never really

21

happened for him, correct?

22
23

A.

It did, sir, started and -- actually -- previous to this

incident when I started recommending the recreation calls, the

4467

08354

1

correspondence time.

I thought there was something else.

I can’t

2

remember now.

3

when I was damn close to recommending him coming off POI.

4

-- no, he -- did he ever get lessen restrictions as far as coming off

5

of POI?

6

Q.

But -- and -- I tell you right -- right before this is
But as far

No, that never happened.
And you see here where -- and I’m just going to highlight

7

it so that -- and bring it out [highlighting the exhibit on display]

8

-- you see where PFC Manning says that he doesn’t understand why --

9

why the continuation of the policy and restrictions beyond the time

10

recommended by you and the psychiatrist.

See where he’s saying you

11

and the psychiatrist apparently are making the same recommendations?

12

A.

[Looking at the exhibit] I -- I -- yes, sir.

13

Q.

Do you know why PFC Manning might have thought that you and

14
15

the psychiatrists were making the same recommendations?
A.

Maybe because -- he just assumed because he was still on

16

that status, maybe he assumed that the psych’ was recommending that,

17

I think, sir.

18

Q.

I mean, I ----

Did you ever tell him -- I know you previously testified

19

that you never told him that the psychologists were recommending that

20

he remain on POI?

21

A.

No, I don’t -- I don’t ever remember telling him, hey, the

22

psychologists are saying you’ve got to stay on POI.

23

telling him that.

4468

I don’t remember

08355

1
2
3

Q.

Were you telling him that you were recommending that he

remain on POI?
A.

Yes.

As a matter of fact, I think during the actual -- the

4

C&A board.

I mean, in fact, I remember telling him that -- now I

5

don’t remember if it was before or after the first -- maybe the

6

second C&A board -- the C&A board that happened on -- in January --

7

talking about it.

8

the C&A board I am the programs chief.

9

Understand that -- that it’s two different hats that I’m wearing.

And I wanted to make sure he understood that at
Yes, I’m your counselor.
I

10

want him to understand that because I think at this point he was

11

talking to me pretty well.

12

recommending that he stay on POI status, I didn’t want that to affect

13

our communication that was finally starting to develop.

And I didn’t want him to see when I was

14

Q.

All right.

15

A.

So I remember explaining that to him during -- that --

16
17

that’s the only time I specifically remember saying that.
Q.

Now do you see up above that where he says, I mean, at

18

least at the staff level, I’m thinking the CO, me, myself,

19

personally?

20

reasons to keep him on POI.

21

that’s not the case.

That’s where he talks about the facility’s looking for
And you respond to him essentially that

Do you see that [referring to the exhibit]?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

And that wasn’t true was it?

4469

08356

1

A.

No, sir, we weren’t looking for a reason.

We were hunting

2

and -- hey, what do we got to do to keep this guy on POI?

3

-- no, we weren’t looking for reasons to do it.

No, that’s

4

Q.

No, but PFC Manning said ----

5

A.

I was looking for a reason to take him off.

6

Q.

---- PFC Manning said he thought the CO was keeping him on

7

POI -- looking for reasons and keeping him on POI.

8

wasn’t the case.

9

A.

And you said that

Is that right?

Correct, sir, meaning we’re not looking for a reason to

10

keep him on POI.

We weren’t hunting and searching for a reason to

11

justify our recommendation.

12

Q.

Can you turn to Page 65 of 109 on Enclosure 22 that’s in

13

front of you?

14

[The witness did as directed.]

15

MJ:

What page?

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

17

Q.

And when you look down at Echo(2).

18

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Do you see where the Brig OIC approves and directs that SND

Page 65 of 109.

20

remain in heightened security status, i.e. prevention of injury,

21

until SND completes the pending 706 board.

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

As the counselor for PFC Manning were you aware of the fact

4470

08357

1

that Chief Averhart decided to keep PFC Manning on POI until the 706

2

board was completed?

3

A.

I remember when Chief Warrant Officer Averhart told me to

4

put this sentence in there, I remember -- I’m not sure if this is the

5

first one -- I think it’s in a few of them actually -- I don’t know

6

if this is the first one -- but I remember him telling me, hey,

7

annotate this in that sentence there.

8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

Q.

And do you remember telling me that PFC Manning was going

to remain on POI until the 706 board was completed?
A.

I don’t remember specifically, sir.

going to say no.
Q.

I may have.

I’m not

I mean, I just don’t remember.

Your understanding as you sit there now was what regarding

the 706 board and PFC Manning’s POI status?
A.

I understand that the -- what you’re talking about my

understanding of the CO’s -- the CO’s saying right here?

16

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

17

A.

My understanding is I understand what the intent was that

18

he, you know, that he -- he was waiting for the 706 hearing to

19

happen.

20

Q.

21
22
23

Do you recall us talking about that?

And I told you that

the 706 board hadn’t even been ordered to resume yet?
A.

That does sound familiar, sir.

I remember it took -- I

remember the 706 hearing went well over it was scheduled, I think.

4471

I

08358

1

remember we thought it was supposed to happen at one point and it

2

went later.

3

conversation, sir.

4
5
6

Q.

I don’t remember how much later.

I seem to recall that

Do you remember me telling you that the 706 board probably

wasn’t going to get completed until March at that point?
A.

I don’t remember if you said March or not, sir.

But I

7

remember we talked it’s getting delayed for something -- I don’t

8

remember a timeframe, but -- yeah, that sounds familiar, sir.

9
10

MJ:

Can I ask a question on that.

you talking about it contemporaneously in time or recently?

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

Q.

13

When you talked about it are

Contemporaneously in time, Your Honor.

So you recall having a conversation at this time basically

the -- late 2010, early 2011 with me about the 706 board?

14

A.

Yes, sir, I remember we talked on the phone.

15

Q.

And do you recall me expressing concern with -- to you

16

about the fact that if the CO kept him in until the 706 board was

17

completed that that might not happen for several months?

18

A.

I don’t remember specifically, sir.

19

remember now that phone conversation, sir.

20

the conversation happening.

21

remember now.

22

Q.

23

We may have.

I can’t

I remember -- I remember

Hell, the context of it, sir, I can’t

I do remember you talking about it getting delayed.

And did you as the counselor at this point have concern

about PFC Manning being in POI status for this length of time?

4472

08359

1
2

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean -- I mean -- what do you mean by concern?

Concern of his -- like harm or concern of his status harming him?

3

Q.

Yes.

4

A.

No, sir.

I mean, I thought -- I don’t remember thinking of

5

being in this status for this length of time was harming him.

6

don’t remember being, you know, strict -- concerned about that.

7

understand what he was saying here in this video.

8
9

Q.

All right.

with him after this incident, correct?
A.

[Looking at the document]

11

Q.

If you’d turn to Page 70 of 109.

12

71 of 109.

13

[The witness did as directed.]

14

A.

And it carries over onto

[Looking at the document] It looks like the session was on

the same day -- the 18th?

16
17

I

So the next day you have a counseling session

10

15

I

Q.

It may have been.

It looks like he has.

So you had a

counseling session with him after this incident?

18

A.

I don’t remember if this was before or after -- before or

19

after this incident happened when I actually sat down and talked to

20

him.

21

Q.

Well, if you look at Page 71, the -- basically before

22

Paragraph 2.

23

didn’t understand why everyone was so concerned about his behavior?

You see where there he’s explaining to you that he

4473

08360

1

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And you explained to him the nature of the brig staff’s

3

concern and their responsibility to protect him?

4

A.

I’m sorry, sir?

5

Q.

I said you explained to him at that point the -- apparently

6

the brig staff’s concern and what they viewed as their responsibility

7

to protect him?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And what was the concern that the brig staff at that point?

10

A.

That he would harm himself, sir.

11

Q.

And why did you ----

12

A.

Or at least attempt to.

13

Q.

Why did you have that concern?

14

A.

Again, going back to -- starting from his history, his

15

conduct -- I mean, at this point -- prior to let’s -- let’s assume

16

we’re talking before this rec’ call incident happened or whatever, my

17

-- my concern at this point was down to, you know, minimal.

18

why I was ready to recommend him come off.

19

happened and I -- I kind of -- kind of ruined that.

20

back.

21

Q.

That’s

And then this incident
That brought it

PFC Manning explained to you in the counseling session that

22

he was feeling overwhelmed and he thought that everyone was

23

scrutinizing him, correct?

4474

08361

1

A.

Correct, sir.

I could see why he would think that.

I

2

mean, he was sighted every five minutes.

And the amount of people

3

that came down, not just facility staff, but even, you know, from the

4

base level and -- I don’t remember any tours happened from D.C. at

5

that point.

6

Q.

So you could see how that might be kind of a drain on him?

7

A.

A drain?

8

he’s scrutinized.

9

know about that.

10
11

Q.

I don’t know.

I could see why he’d feel like

But mentally exhausting?

All right.

I -- you know, I don’t

And you testified from that point forward you

considered the 18 January incident in your C&A boards?

12

A.

Yes, sir, I had to.

13

Q.

And how did you consider the commander’s direction to keep

14

him in POI until the completion of the 706 board when you were doing

15

your C&A boards?

16

A.

How did that factor in?

Honestly, sir, when he had me put that blurb -- that

17

sentence inside the report, I thought about as much of it just to put

18

into the sentence and then that was it.

19

pay much attention to it after that, sir.

Put it in the report, didn’t

20

Q.

You didn’t view that as an order or a directive?

21

A.

No, sir.

22
23

I wrote it in there -- hey, he -- it was worded

the way he wanted to word it.
Q.

And once that was in there ----

And I’m looking at the words “approves” and “directs.”

4475

08362

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

I guess in my understanding of that that’s kind of an

3
4

order.
A.

It is.

I mean, approves -- he approved -- that C&A board

5

that’s the first time it happened.

6

I understood his intent on what his intent was, but ----

And, you know, I’m saying -- hey,

7

Q.

Okay, and so ----

8

A.

---- that didn’t drive what I thought.

9

Q.

---- but his intent was to keep him in there until his 706

10
11
12

board was done, right?
A.

Yes, sir.

thinking.

13

Q.

14

at all?

15

A.

No, sir.

16

Q.

Okay.

17
18

I mean, that was -- I mean, that’s what he’s

So as you sit there now that didn’t impact your C&A boards

Now on 2 March 2011, PFC Manning apparently makes a

comment to Master Sergeant Papakie, is that correct?
A.

Yes, sir, in -- back up to the last one.

Did it factor

19

into the C&A board?

Honestly, sir, I don’t even know if the other

20

members on the board even knew that statement -- they didn’t see this

21

report.

22

in there.

23

sat there and say, hey, the CO said he’s going to stay until the 706

I don’t even know if they ever knew that that sentence was
I didn’t pay much attention to it.

4476

I didn’t -- I never

08363

1

board, so that’s what we’re doing.

2

wanted to word it because I think I worded it three different times

3

and had to bring it up to him.

4

was done.

5

move onto whatever I had next and didn’t pay much attention to it

6

after that.

7

it.

8
9
10

Q.

Once I got it worded the way he

Once it was the way he wanted it.

Happy I got it worded the way it was.

I

That way I could

I don’t think I -- I’m sure I never told the board about

I’m sure you didn’t.

All right, so then when you look at

the 2d of March, on that date PFC Manning is having a conversation
with Master Sergeant Papakie, correct?

11

A.

[Looking through the document] What page am I on, sir?

12

Q.

I’m just -- from your memory.

13

A.

Oh.

14

Q.

So on the 2d of March PFC Manning spoke to Master Sergeant

15

Yes, sir.

Papakie?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

What was your understanding of just -- not what was said,

18
19

but how the conversation went about?
A.

If I remember right, Master Sergeant Papakie was talking

20

about something -- I don’t know what -- they were already having a

21

conversation about something.

22

the night before by the guard staff about something.

23

remember.

I think -- I think he got counseled

I think they were talking about that.

4477

I don’t

And at some point

08364

1

during that conversation words to the effect of -- and I -- it’s not

2

a quote, but essentially said, if I wanted to hurt myself, I have the

3

elastic in my underwear to do it with, or something like that, sir.

4
5
6

Q.

Okay, was it ever reported to you that he was talking to

Master Sergeant Papakie about why he was still on POI?
A.

It might have been, sir.

I don’t -- I don’t really

7

remember why they were having the conversation prior to that status.

8

That very well -- I don’t doubt that that topic came up during that

9

discussion.

10

Q.

And was it ever reported to you that when PFC Manning was

11

saying what he said of, hey, if I wanted to harm myself, I could use

12

the elastic of my underwear, that he was saying to -- to point out

13

the absurdity of the conditions he was in?

14
15

A.

Yes, sir.

I -- I -- I understand what you’re saying he’s

just maybe possibly throwing out an example.

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

And I got that.

And is that a possibility?

Sure.

It’s a

18

very real possibility.

Could he have been being sarcastic when he

19

said it?

20

sarcasm -- when we’re talking about suicide, I can’t take it as

21

sarcasm.

22

way I’d be able to justify -- let’s just say we didn’t take his

23

underwear away.

He could have been.

But, again, like I said earlier, sir,

I’m -- you know, no way can I do that.

‘Cause there’s no

And then he did at least attempt, let alone, you

4478

08365

1

know, God forbid, commit suicide -- right, at least attempt, we’d be

2

answering -- oh, if he said this, why didn’t you take his underwear

3

away?

4

sarcastic.

5

I thought he was being sarcastic.

6

defense.

7

And we’d be standing there saying, oh, I thought he was

Q.

I can’t explain that at my court-martial, sir.

You know,

That’s -- that can’t be my

So ---What about the brig psychiatrist.

Wouldn’t that give you a

8

good defense if they said to you, look, this wasn’t a statement of

9

intent to harm oneself, but him just intellectualizing what he

10

believed to be the absurdity of his -- his condition?

11

A.

Might -- might it help me at my court-martial, sir?

I’m

12

sure it would help.

I don’t know if it would be enough to get me

13

off.

14

But, again, we back up to January 18th incident, which I still

15

believe is very similar to the one in Kuwait.

16

incident, and then I’m not sure how long after he made the noose.

17

And then we fast forward to January 18th incident.

18

think it’s very similar to the one in Kuwait.

19

underwear comment, sir.

But, you know -- you know, might it help?

Okay.

Sure it would help.

You had the Kuwait

That happens -- I

And now I’ve got the

I’m -- it’s like déjà vu, sir.

20

Q.

So in this instance, I guess, here it was a red flag

21

for you then?

22

A.

It had to be, sir.

23

Q.

And -- and you thought just because he said it, he might be

4479

08366

1

thinking about harming himself?

2
3

A.

Yes, sir.

I mean, and there’s -- there’s -- by March 3rd

now I’ve got a couple other things going that don’t help either.

4

Q.

Did you consider the elastic of his underwear being a

5

possibility of harming himself, like he could use that actually to do

6

that?

7

A.

Sure he could, sir.

8

Q.

So that -- that was -- was that a possibility that you had

9
10

thought of before his comment or was that just a possibility that you
thought of after his comment?

11

A.

No, we’ve always thought that he could.

You know, anybody

12

could, not necessarily anything relative to Manning.

13

possibility?

14

Q.

15

But was it a

Sure.

So the elastic of an underwear was a known possibility to

you guys of potential harm?

16

A.

Absolutely, sir.

17

Q.

And I -- I guess PFC Manning was given razor blades as

19

A.

Yes, sir, he was supervised while he shaved.

20

Q.

Oh, so there’s always someone standing there?

21

A.

There’s supposed to be.

22

shaved.

23

Q.

18

I mean, anything is.

well?

I mean, I wasn’t there when he

So.
So having a supervisor then I guess the -- were the razor

4480

08367

1

blades viewed as a possible harm?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

But -- I mean, again, you’ve got to let him

3

shave.

And -- I mean, until he does something with that item -- I

4

mean, so could a phone cord.

I’m not going to sit here -- he’s

5

talking to you on the phone.

Hey, sir, he can’t talk to you right

6

now because there’s a phone cord.

7

Q.

Right.

8

A.

I mean, eventually we did get a headset type phone.

9

But I

mean, until we got that phone we couldn’t sit here and say, you know

10

-- I talk to you -- hey, sir, you’re going to have to drive down here

11

from Rhode Island, I think it was -- you have to drive down from

12

Rhode Island ‘cause I can’t put him on the phone ‘cause it’s got a

13

cord.

14

can’t 100 percent eliminate, fool proof, like take away every

15

possible opportunity.

Yeah, the possibility is there.

We can only minimize.

16

Q.

Was PFC Manning given socks while he was on POI?

17

A.

I believe he was, sir.

We

When he was -- there was a period -

18

- when he first got -- go confined he -- I think he stayed in his

19

sweats -- his sweat suit all day once -- he didn’t have -- in fact,

20

no, he didn’t have them when he first got to confinement.

21

working with his command later on getting him sweats.

22

in sweats at that point.

23

know when relative to what we’re talking about right now -- that he

I remember

Then he stayed

And then there was a period -- and I don’t

4481

08368

1

switched over to his uniform.

But I -- when he was in his sweats, I

2

think he did have socks if I remember correctly.

3

Q.

And did you guys view his socks as a potential harm to him?

4

A.

Sure, sir.

5

Q.

And why did you allow him to have -- have the socks then?

6

A.

He had them during waking hours, sir.

It could be.

I mean, once -- once

7

taps hit, you know, and now lights are shut down and less

8

supervision, less people in and out or whatnot.

9

earlier we talked about the heat being out in the brig and it was

I mean, again, sir,

10

cold.

11

know it’s cold in here, but you ain’t having socks because we think

12

they’re a threat, you know.

13

possible opportunity.

14

absolutely everything out of his cell and -- I mean, we’d be making

15

someone standing there and with nothing in there and give you

16

anything -- never give him a phone.

17

could choke on chow on purpose.

18
19

You know, we weren’t going to say you can’t have socks.

Q.

Okay.

I

Again, sir, we can’t eliminate every

Other than -- if that was the case we’d take

Never give him chow.

I mean, he

Now in March PFC Manning, as you pointed out,

removed visitors from his visitation list, right?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And this -- you can also consider it to be a red flag?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

MJ:

What was the date?

4482

08369

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

2

Q.

3

A.

I’m sure I did, sir.

I don’t remember the specific

conversation, but I’m -- I’m sure I did.

6
7

And you asked him about this in a counseling session,

correct?

4
5

22 March, ma’am.

Q.

If you turn to Page 99 of 109 of Enclosure 22.

[The witness did as directed.]

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

9

Q.

You see down basically about half way through where you

10

state during the interview I asked P -- SND if everything was going

11

well with family -- with friends and family since he had several

12

people removed from his mail and visitation list?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And then you see where it says SND stated that majority of

15

the individuals had not written letters or visited, so he removed

16

them.

See that?

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

18

Q.

He also stated that things were not going well with a

19

couple of individuals, so he had them removed.

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

Why was that a red flag for you then?

22

A.

Because -- all right, let’s talk about the letters first,

23

sir.

4483

08370

1

Q.

Yeah.

2

MJ:

What page you on?

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

top paragraph.

5

MJ:

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

WIT: Ready, sir.

8

Q.

9

I’m sorry, ma’am, Page 99 of 109.

It is the

Okay.
And about half way through, ma’am.

Yeah, so you said what you wanted to talk about was the

letters first?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

If I have a mail visitation list, this list says, hey,

13

these are all the people that I’m willing to accept mail from.

14

-- it’s -- now it can’t ever be changed as you know.

15

Q.

And can I stop you there for a moment?

It’s

If a person’s name

16

wasn’t on that mail list then he couldn’t get mail from them, is that

17

right?

18

A.

He could, sir.

19

Q.

He could?

20

A.

It just wasn’t going to automatically come to him.

So --

21

example; if I’m confined and I -- Aunt Suzie, living on the other

22

side of the country who I talked to -- the only relationship I have

23

with her is a Christmas card every year, right?

4484

08371

1

Q.

Right.

2

A.

I get confined; I’m probably not going to put that person

3

on my mail and visitation list because I don’t really expect to

4

receive a letter from them.

5

Aunt Suzie.

6

rejected automatically.

7

to come down -- hey, you received a letter from Aunt -- you know,

8

from this lady, you know.

9

Aunt Suzie.

And, you know, they come in, it’s not going to be

Do you want to add them?

11

receives the mail.

13

Q.

That -- you know, the mailroom clerk’s going

You know who that is?

Oh, yeah, that’s

Okay, we’ll they’re not on the mail and visitation list.

10

12

Let’s say one day I get a letter from

Yes I’d like to add ‘em.

Add ‘em.

He

And then you would add ‘em by, I guess, putting their name

and information on a five -- DD510?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

They’d drop a 510 to the mailroom.

In that case

15

where -- you know, the mail clerk very well could say, here, let’s

16

modify it right now instead of going through the whole mailroom

17

process because now -- when you get into postal regulations, it’s got

18

to be delivered the day that it’s received by the facility or else

19

it’s got to be rejected or whatever.

20

clerks going to be like, okay, hey, we’re going to modify it right

21

now.

22

it out.

23

name.

So in that case the mailroom

To prevent him from having to go get the original and you fill
I’ll just give you a blank one.

You add that one person’s

I attach it to the one that you had in the first place, give

4485

08372

1
2

you your mail.
Q.

Call it a day.

Okay.

Well -- so then just with the visitors then when he

3

explained that he removed the people that didn’t visit him or two

4

people that he had problems with.

5

A.

Why -- why was that a red flag?

Well -- let me back up to the letters again, sir, because I

6

never said why that was a concern.

Just ‘cause some -- once my mail

7

and visitation list is done and complete, that thing’s filed up in

8

the mailroom and I don’t have to do anything with it.

9

cause me any trouble.

I’ve already filled it out.

It doesn’t

It requires zero

10

effort on that thing to be maintained in the mailroom on my part as a

11

confinee.

12

these -- now I’ve got to do work to have them taken off.

13

work to leave them on.

14

am I going to go through this work just ‘cause I haven’t received a

15

letter from them?

16

Q.

So why would I go through the trouble of I don’t want
I have zero

Just ‘cause I haven’t received a letter, why

Are you aware of the fact that when PFC Manning wanted to

17

remove two people from his visitation list they wanted him to renew a

18

-- put in a new DD510 with all the other addresses to update them?

19
20
21

A.

I’m not sure about that, sir.

remember that specifically.
Q.

That doesn’t -- I don’t

I’m not sure about the 510.

If -- if that were the case where the mailroom supervisor

22

said, look, you know, some of these addresses and information are

23

incomplete or outdated; you need to just update everything.

4486

I guess

08373

1

then -- your reasons for the letters would no longer be true,

2

correct, as far as work and not work?

3

A.

You mean they got -- as he was updating the old one, while

4

he was at it he just didn’t add certain people?

5

your question?

6

Q.

No.

No.

Is that -- is that

Meaning that if he wanted to remove two people

7

from his list, and that’s all he wanted to do, so he wants to do that

8

work.

9

you need to put in a whole new 510 with all the addresses and update

10

And the mailroom clerk says, well, fine you can do that, but

them because it’s been a while.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

Could you see then why a detainee might only put those

13

people on that he’s received stuff from instead of the Aunt?

14

A.

I -- I can see why it would, sir.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

But, I mean, he cares enough to put them on in the first

17
18

place.
Q.

Why not again?
All right.

Well now let’s turn to the question of the

19

visitors; when he told you that he removed people who didn’t visit

20

him or two people that he particularly was just having problems with

21

why did that cause a red flag for you?

22
23

A.

Well, the interesting part about that, sir, is he wasn’t

making any phone calls.

He wasn’t sending any or receiving mail.

4487

He

08374

1

was only communicating with you.

2

with family members if you’re not even talking to ‘em or writing or

3

receiving letters from ‘em or -- it doesn’t make much sense to me,

4

sir.

5
6

Q.

I mean, how are you having problems

Well, I guess if he wrote a letter that would be inspected

by the brig before it was sent out, right?

7

A.

It would be scanned, not read verbatim, sir.

8

Q.

Well someone would look at it?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And if he talked to somebody on the phone he knew that his

11

conversations would be recorded?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And potentially, I don’t know, maybe used in a trial at a

14

later date?

15

A.

Correct, sir.

16

Q.

You see how that might explain why he might limit his --

17
18

letters he sent or the calls he made?
A.

Those same circumstances and possibilities you just

19

mentioned, sir, apply to every prisoner.

20

talk about anything illegal while you’re writing letters or making

21

phone calls.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

I mean -- I mean -- I mean, if -- if at the court-martial

4488

It’s real simple; don’t

08375

1

they’re going to talk about, hey, why were you talking about your --

2

how much you miss McDonalds?

3

used against you in a court-martial, sir?

4
5

Q.

How much is that really going to be

Can you turn to Page 108 or 109 for Enclosure 22?

[The witness did as directed.]

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

You said he removed everybody.

But do you see there where

8

he’s got a personal visit from Danny Clark, which is listed as a

9

friend, and a personal visit from Debra Van Alstyne, which is listed

10

as Aunt?

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

12

Q.

So I guess he was still having family and friends visit him

13
14

after all, right?
A.

Yes, sir.

Well, now -- when he removed the people, he

15

didn’t remove everybody.

16

mean, he removed quite a few people.

He left certain names on there.

But, I

17

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

18

A.

And some of them were people that had visited him.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

Now you said earlier that detainees rarely appear

before boards?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And PFC Manning did, as we know, appear before a board on

23

21 January, correct?

4489

08376

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And he want -- he appeared before the board to explain why

3

he thought he should be taken off of POI?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

He explained he wasn’t suicidal?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

I -- he appeared before two.

7

remember which one was which.

8

that.

9
10

I’m trying to

But I remember he did -- I asked him

And he said he wasn’t suicidal during one of them.
Q.

And he was asked by the C&A board why he wrote always

planning, never acting?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And when he was asked about that, he was also asked, well -

13

- and PFC Manning responded that may have been false, right?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And then another board member, I believe you said it was

16

Gunny Sergeant Fuller?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

Asked him, well, if you’re -- if you weren’t telling the

19

truth about it then, how can we trust what you’re telling us right

20

now is true?

21

A.

22

the question.

23

Q.

No, sir.

Gunny Fuller didn’t state that and that wasn’t

That was me that asked the question.

So correct -- I’m sorry.

4490

I thought you said Fuller asked

08377

1

the question.

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

So tell me what was asked.

4

A.

When he said -- when he looked at the piece of paper that

5

Gunny Fuller showed him and he said that may have been false.

6

said, well, if that may have been false, the five minutes ago when I

7

asked you if you were suicidal right now, you said, no.

8

assume that’s false?

9

do you understand what he just asked you?

10

Q.

And he said, yes.

I

So I also

And then Gunny Fuller asked,
He said, yes.

So what you’re saying on the stand is that you asked

11

Manning if -- if when he said that he wasn’t suicidal previously that

12

you -- whether or not you should assume that that was false, and he

13

told you, yeah, you should assume that’s false?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

That’s your testimony?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

Do you recall PFC Manning ever saying I -- it’s possible

18
19

that what I’m saying now is false, but it’s not?
A.

No.

He said that may have been false.

And then when I

20

said if that was -- if that may have been false, then five minutes

21

ago when I asked you if you were suicidal right now, I said, I assume

22

that also may have been false?

23

just asked?

Yes.

Yes.

4491

Do you understand what you were

08378

1
2
3
4

Q.

Okay.

During the board PFC Manning was visibly nervous,

correct?
A.

I seem to recall he was -- yeah, he was probably --

probably nervous.

5

Q.

His hands were shaking?

6

A.

I think so, sir.

I can’t -- I can’t remember now.

7

remember writing that during one of the boards.

8

was the same board or -- I do remember writing those words.

I

I don’t know if that

9

Q.

He was stuttering slightly as he was speaking to you?

10

A.

Probably, sir.

11

Q.

And that’s because he was standing up in front of ----

12

A.

No, he was sitting down, sir.

13

Q.

---- at that point three Marines -- oh, he’s sitting down?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

So he was sitting in front of three Marines asking him

16

questions?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And could you see where there is another possible -- if in

19

fact that exchange happened where you asked him, you know, are you

20

telling us a falsehood when you say you’re not suicidal and he says

21

yes, like, yeah, I’m lying to you.

22

see how that might just be him being very nervous in the response?

23

A.

I am suicidal apparently.

Do you

I can see how that would make somebody -- but that’s one of

4492

08379

1

the reasons why Gunnery Sergeant Fuller clarified do you understand

2

what you were just asked?

3

And the other part is; you know, we went back -- you know, we talked

4

about earlier that Manning’s intelligent.

And he -- I mean -- definitely said, yes.

5

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

6

A.

He -- he is.

7

Q.

Right.

8

A.

So do I really think that he just misunderstood the

9
10

He’s a smart guy.

question, and then re-misunderstood it when he was asked if he
understood it?

11

Q.

Right.

12

A.

I think that’s a very low possibility, sir.

13

Q.

All right.

14
15
16

So you thought when he told you that he was

telling you, yes, I’m suicidal?
A.

No, I don’t think he was saying, yes, I’m suicidal.

I

thinking he was saying, yeah, what I said might have been false.

17

Q.

I thought you said he said what I told you it was false?

18

A.

No, may have been false -- that may be false.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

If -- if you’re saying that may have been false; talking

What was your question?

21

about always planning, never acting, then five minutes ago when I

22

asked if you are suicidal right now, should I also assume -- should I

23

also assume that was also false?

Yes -- or words to that effect.

4493

08380

1
2

It’s written -- it’s written down on one of things, sir.
Q.

All right, I’m handing you Appellate Exhibit 435I or India

3

[handing the document to the witness].

4

different answers.

5

you want to go with.

And you’ve given two

And I just want to make sure that whichever one

6

A.

I’ve given the same answer, sir.

7

Q.

Well, I -- you said he said it might have been false --

8

A.

May have been false.

9

Q.

-- which I think -- or -- is it “may” now?

10

A.

That may have been false.

11

Q.

May have been false.

12

So may have been false is equivocal

meaning like, well, it may be false, but it’s not.

13

A.

But it might not be false either.

14

Q.

Okay.

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

And then the other one was that it was false, which

I thought is what you were saying?
A.

No, he never said that was false.

It was always that may

have been false.
Q.

So the -- so he’s basically giving you and honest answer

that it may be false?
A.

Yeah, he -- I don’t know if it’s honest anymore, sir.

giving me an answer and saying his answer may be wrong.
Q.

The appellate exhibit I showed you, is that the

documentation of your exchange?

4494

He’s

08381

1
2

A.

like a draft, but.

3
4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving Appellate Exhibit 435 India

[retrieving the document from the witness].

5
6

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir, it looks -- it looks

A.

I don’t know if that’s me typing right there.

It’s

probably in CORMIS -- you know, what I actually put into CORMIS.

7

Q.

When -- now I want to go to -- if you look at the very last

8

-- and we’ll end off on this -- so you see the -- 107 -- Page 107 and

9

109, Enclosure 22.

10

A.

[Looking through the document] I don’t have a Page 109,

12

Q.

Page -- no, 107.

13

A.

Yes, sir, page 107.

14

Q.

Do you see that -- that date 13 April 2011?

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And at least on that date who and for you were recommending

11

17

sir.

that PFC Manning remain in MAX and POI, correct?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

In your mind was PFC Manning close to receiving a

20

recommendation to go into MDI at that point?

21

A.

On 13 April, sir?

22

Q.

Yeah.

23

A.

I -- I -- I can’t remember.

4495

Not as specifically as I was

08382

1

back in January ready to recommend him because now he’s back up to a

2

month earlier, if that, or whatever -- when we go back to the may

3

have been false comment, sir, that one -- that -- that one was heavy.

4

That was -- that was probably, in my mind, the heaviest because I --

5

now I don’t know what to believe anymore.

6

Q.

Okay.

So at least at -- at this stage of 13 April you’re

7

nowhere near to being close to saying I can feel comfortable and

8

confident ----

9

A.

No, I wouldn’t ----

10

Q.

---- about PFC Manning ----

11

A.

---- I wouldn’t say nowhere near.

I don’t know -- I don’t

12

know where I was on that one on this date as far as comfort level of

13

having him removed because I don’t -- after the whole -- they may

14

have been false thing -- up until this point, I don’t remember any

15

other specific incident or statement that he said or anything he did

16

jumping out at me.

17

our conversations definitely went back to where we started from.

18

Maybe not quite as bad, but, you know, they definitely regressed.

19

to tell you where I was on 13 April, how close I was, you know, 50/50

20

or -- I can’t remember, sir.

21

Q.

I do remember that, you know, he -- he -- he --

So

Well, you didn’t have anything that you can point to that

22

would say -- and I think -- I want to get your words right.

23

got comfortable enough to justify to myself if I can’t agree myself,

4496

“I never

08383

1

I can’t sell it to the CO.”

2

close to being comfortable enough to sell it to the CO on maybe 14

3

April -- 15 April?

4

A.

So did you -- were you anywhere near

Not -- not that I remember, sir.

I mean, again, I don’t --

5

I don’t -- I don’t remember ho -- like I said, I don’t know if I was

6

50/50 on that.

7

the CO.

8
9
10

I don’t know how close I was being able to sell it to

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right.

I’m retrieving from the witness

the copy of Enclosure 22 to Appellate Exhibit 259 and Appellate
Exhibit 435 Hotel.

11

A.

Sir, also, if I may ----

12

Q.

Sure.

13

A.

---- to back up to the -- not to either one of those papers

14

that you just gave me -- the one that was draft of the long C&A board

15

that looks like just a word document printed, I didn’t read that

16

whole thing -- whether those are my words and my typing or not.

17

don’t know if it was.

18

you did, but you could have typed that up five minutes ago and

19

printed it out and say, hey, are these your words.

20

those are my words.

21

counseling notes or whatever, that’s -- that’s my words.

I

I mean, that -- you -- you -- I’m not saying

So I don’t if

That’s why I say, what’s in CORMIS or on the

22

Q.

Okay.

23

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

No further questions.

4497

08384

1

MJ:

Redirect?

2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

3

MJ:

Yes, Your Honor.

Go ahead.

4
5
6

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the trial counsel [MAJ Fein]:
Q.

Now, Master Sergeant Blenis, I just want to clarify one

7

issue about your cross-examination.

8

and POI overlap?

Can factors for maximum custody

9

A.

Can one factor be the same for both?

10

Q.

Could it apply for both?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

So is disruptive behavior a factor for maximum custody?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And that’s something you would also consider for prevention

15

of injury?

16

A.

Yes, sir, depending on what the disruption was.

17

Q.

What about poor home conditions?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And what about -- would that apply -- poor home conditions

20
21

apply to maximum custody?
A.

Depending on how they’re poor.

I mean if I just don’t

22

speak to my family, I wouldn’t put that as a custody, but if I have

23

abuse issues going -- especially if I’m the abuser, like I say, I’m

4498

08385

1
2
3

locked up for spousal abuse, then, yes, sir.
Q.

What about -- is low tolerance of frustration a factor you

would consider for maximum custody?

4

A.

It -- yes, sir.

5

Q.

And would you also consider it for prevention of injury?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And, finally, was potential length of sentence something

8

you’d consider for maximum custody?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And would you also consider that for prevention of injury?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

MJ:

15
16
17

20
21

No recross, Your Honor.

I have a few questions.

Let me just finish this.

What was

the -- what was -- what came after low level of frustration?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Poor home co -- I’m sorry, it was potential

length of sentence was the third and final factor.

18
19

Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL
Questions by the military judge:
Q.

Assume PFC Manning -- well you testified earlier you’ve

never seen a POI in any status less than MAX, is that right?

22

A.

Yes, ma’am.

23

Q.

Assume ----

4499

08386

1
2

A.
then?

Up un -- not while PFC Manning was there.

Have I since

Yes, ma’am.

3

Q.

You have?

4

A.

Yes, ma’am.

Quantico changed it to here we did have a MDI

5

-- not ER, MDI POI/MDI SR.

6

Headquarters PSO, ma’am.

And that was pretty much a push down from

7

Q.

So Quantico changed their policy?

8

A.

Yes, sir -- yes, ma’am, it was pushed down from

9

Headquarters Marine Corps Corrections.

10

Q.

The POI?

11

A.

Medium -- medium in custody, prevention of injury.

12

Q.

And for suicide risk as well?

13

A.

Yes, ma’am.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

It was ----

16

Q.

When did -- when did that happen?

17

A.

It was after PFC Manning left, ma’am.

18

It was really

unorthodox -- unheard of, ma’am.

19

Q.

The brig closed in September of 2011, is that right?

20

A.

No, ma’am.

21

Q.

December?

22

A.

I left in September, ma’am.

23

Q.

Oh, December of 2011.

December.

Was the new policy that came down

4500

08387

1

from Headquarters, Marine Corps, did that come before or after you

2

left Quantico?

3

A.

It was while I was at Quantico, ma’am.

4

Q.

Okay, was it a long time before you left or was -- I’m

5

looking at the trans -- Manning transferred in April.

6

A.

Yes, ma’am.

7

Q.

At the end of April.

8

A.

Yes, ma’am.

9

Q.

So that leaves May, June, July and August.

10

A.

Yes, ma’am.

11

Q.

Any idea in there where that change came in?

12

A.

Probably fairly early in that five month gap, ma’am.

You left in September.

13

Probably -- maybe a month or a month and a half later, I think.

14

can also add, ma’am, that that’s not -- you know, that was directed

15

to Quantico.

16

learned with me and my understanding of policies, Camp Pendleton

17

didn’t get that word, ma’am.

18

say MDI, POI, or MDI SR out there, they look at me like I’m crazy.

19

Q.

I

When I got to Camp Pendleton and I was bringing lessons

In fact, Camp Pendleton when -- if I

You said it was directed from the Headquarters Marine Corps

20

just to the Pendle -- just to the Quantico Brig and not to any other

21

brig?

22
23

A.

That’s my assumption, ma’am, because at Camp Pendleton, it

ain’t happening.

And I’ve brought it up.

4501

And they ----

08388

1

Q.

How did you find out about that?

2

A.

That it was ----

3

Q.

That the change came down?

4

A.

I’m not sure who gave me the direction, ma’am.

I mean,

5

once it came -- like I said, ma’am, it was really unorthodox and

6

unheard of.

7

-- ‘cause now I’m wrapping my head around a change in 10 plus years

8

of something I’ve never seen before.

9

rationale behind it?

10

I can.

And can I -- can I see the

But when I say it though to somebody

who’s never heard it before they look at me like I’m crazy.

11
12

And it took me a mile to wrap -- wrap my head around it

Q.

Do both POI and suicide risk are considered administrative

segregation, right?

13

A.

Yes, ma’am.

14

Q.

Now on your forms there you have -- let me find those.

15

Hold on, I’ve got a lot of exhibits here, too.

16

work reports?

17

A.

Work and training reports, ma’am.

18

Q.

How do you get a work and training report if you don’t

A.

The -- it’s not just your work, ma’am.

19
20

You’re looking at

work?
This is what the

21

form is called.

It’s not just your work, it’s also your -- your

22

conduct within the living quarters as well.

23

look at the report, there’s sections where it’s to be filled out by

4502

If you -- if you were to

08389

1

the -- I think it says housing supervisor or dorm supervisor -- I

2

forget how it’s worded -- but essentially the Brig areas supervisor.

3

It says like sections like 1 through 5 are to be completed by just

4

the housing, and sections 6 through 7 or whatever filled out by the

5

work supervisor.

6

work supervisor, Manning’s weren’t filled out.

7

only from the housing area.

8
9
10

Q.

Okay.

Manning’s -- where it says it was filled out by the
His is filled out

What can people in the general population do that a

person on maximum custody -- what -- can’t?
A.

Go -- go to the mess deck for chow.

Go to the general

11

population rec’ yard as a group.

Move around the facility without

12

restraints on.

13

leg restraints.

14

restraint belt, but just not leg restraints.

15

as a group.

16

it’s -- you know, it’s individualized because, again, they -- we

17

can’t bring them out in the general population.

18

ma’am.

19

group, go to chow as a group in the mess deck, be assigned a job

20

where they’re working around.

When they leave the facility, they don’t have to wear
They still have to wear hand restraints and a
They can go to church

People in maximum custody, they can go to church but

That’s about it,

The main -- the main things are; go to recreation call as a

21

Q.

Can they -- can they also get work assignments?

22

A.

Maximum custody, ma’am?

23

Q.

No.

The general population.

4503

08390

1

A.

Yes, ma’am, depending on their classification.

There are

2

some that are MDI custody that don’t have a job assignment.

3

if I had somebody in protective custody.

4
5
6

Q.

Example;

That’s -- if somebody is in protective custody would they

go in the general population?
A.

No, ma’am, they’d be in special quarters.

But they would -

7

- they’d still be -- they could be -- not necessarily always, but

8

they very well may be a MDI custody -- medium in custody prisoner.

9

Q.

Oh, so someone in -- someone in protective custody --

10

A.

They’re not going anywhere with general population, ma’am.

11

Q.

-- would be in special housing?

12

A.

Yes, ma’am.

This is assuming that there’s an actual squad

13

bay dorm open while -- while -- in this case -- during this period --

14

talking about PFC Manning was confined, nobody lived inside the dorm.

15

Q.

So if someone was in protective custody would they be

16

required to wear the leg restraints and wear restraints when walking

17

around the facility?

18

A.

Not if they’re medium in custody, ma’am, no.

19

Q.

Okay.

And I guess I’m -- I’m curious as to -- if a med --

20

if a spec -- if someone’s in special housing they could be MDI

21

custody, why couldn’t someone in protective -- in POI be MDI custody?

22

I guess they can now, but back then -- I mean what was the rationale

23

about leaving in maximum custody?

4504

08391

1

A.

Ma’am, it was just where -- where -- where -- who

2

originally ordered it and why it was that way?

I don’t know.

3

was long before I became corrections.

4

If somebody is POI or SR, they are maximum custody.

5

still is to this day with all potentially violent, dangerous or

6

escape risks.

7

Q.

That

That’s just what was taught.
It was -- and it

You testified earlier in response to defense counsel that

8

by the 3d of March you had other things that were not helpful, I

9

guess, since you were considering taking PFC Manning off of POI

10

status back in January?

11

A.

Yes, ma’am.

12

Q.

What were those things?

13

A.

That -- that was -- when we started talking about the --

14

that may have been false.

15

yet.

16

that part.

17
18

At that point we haven’t talked about that

And that’s what I was referring to.

Q.

So he did -- he did get to

Okay, rec’ call; what’s your understanding for how much

rec’ call a prisoner should have by the regulation?

19

A.

Recreation call, ma’am?

20

Q.

Yeah.

21

A.

They go out for an hour.

22

Q.

How come PFC Manning only got 20 minutes?

23

A.

Because when you look at the -- under the programs part of

4505

But ----

08392

1

the SECNAV recreation is not just recreation call.

The library is

2

considered a form of recreation.

3

hour of recreation daily, that encompasses games -- if they’re

4

playing table games -- now I don’t -- I know that didn’t apply to PFC

5

Manning because he wasn’t part of the population so he couldn’t play

6

ping pong by himself.

7

form of recreation.

8

Recreation doesn’t mean just recreation call.

So when -- when we talk about one

But the library usage; that’s considered a
Recreation call itself is a form of recreation.

9

Q.

So it’s not concerned with physical activity?

10

A.

No, ma’am.

Exercise period -- when you’re reading the

11

SECNAV there’s a spot where it talks about there’s a one hour

12

exercise period that’s referring to disciplinary segregation

13

prisoners only.

14

come out of my cell for a one hour exercise period a day.

15

doesn’t mean recreation call.

16

no recreation equipment is going to be afforded to me.

17

out there -- I can, you know, run around the inside perimeter, or

18

pushups, you know, calisthenics.

19

going to be given a basketball or something like that, ma’am.

20

Q.

So if I’m in disciplinary segregation, I have to
That

That means I can go outside, however,
So I can go

But they’re not -- but they’re not

I guess this is where I’m still confused because the

21

disciplinary segregation requirement is for an hour of exercise, why

22

is PFC Manning only getting 20 minutes?

23

A.

Ma’am, that’s -- that’s the way it was written.

4506

That’s one

08393

1

of the reasons why I pushed for the one hour recreation call.

2

Q.

Who made that decision on the 20 minutes?

3

A.

That’s long before even I was there.

4

Call -- it’s called MAX Sunshine Call.

5

to Camp Pendleton ----

He did MAX Sunshine

It’s 20 minutes.

If you go

6

Q.

Oh, that’s for every MAX then, not just PFC Manning?

7

A.

Oh, no, ma’am, it’s MAX’s.

8

Sunshine Call -- 20 minutes.

9

Pendleton right now.

It’s referred to as MAX

And it’s currently that way in Camp

I’m still -- I’m still working on the one hour.

10

But these -- these are all things that, like I said, lessons learned

11

about the Camp Pendleton.

12

Q.

Okay.

Why not an hour?

I’m still pitching.

What kind of documentation is required for C&A

13

boards by either the Quantico’s regulation, the BUPERS, I guess the

14

other part of the SECNAV Instruction ----

15

A.

Yes, ma’am.

16

Q.

---- and the regular SECNAV Instruction that you all use.

17

A.

For a reclassification form, ma’am.
It’s a reclassification form.

That’s -- a 2711.2 I

18

believe, ma’am.

19

in CORMIS that -- under the reclassification tabs on -- I really wish

20

I could pull up on a computer to show you -- we no longer have to use

21

a hard copy of the 2711.2 because inside CORMIS there’s a

22

reclassification tab that has four subtabs underneath it.

23

were to take all the information in these subtabs and put it on this

4507

Now there’s a section

And if I

08394

1

piece of paper, I would have the 2711.2.

2

required for reclassification only.

3

Q.

And so -- but that’s

As far as the actual ----

Now when you’re talking reclassification, what happens --

4

what -- what is required for the boards that meet, I guess, and vote,

5

in your case, to continue the classification?

6

A.

If -- if somebody’s being reviewed by a C&A board and

7

there’s no change to it, it just has to be put on the daily change

8

roster where that’s listed -- that’s everybody -- that’s everybody

9

that’s reviewed by a C&A board -- the results of the C&A board.

And

10

there’s another spot in CORMIS where you see the board -- it’s the

11

board review and results area.

12

But the -- paragraph -- what I do now -- and this -- this isn’t

13

required, but this is what I started doing back in November in

14

Quantico and I brought it with me to Camp Pendleton is everybody

15

that’s on the C&A board, even if their status didn’t change, we do

16

the 2711, the electronic version in the tab anyway just so there’s no

17

-- so I never have to answer this question again.

18
19

Q.

You’ve probably seen those, ma’am.

But to your knowledge -- did I understand you to testify

that’s not required; you just do it as an addition?

20

A.

Correct, ma’am.

21

Q.

If someone doesn’t like what the C&A board decision is can

22
23

they appeal it?
A.

Yes, ma’am.

It would be processed -- 510 to the CO.

4508

And

08395

1

they could submit the 510 to me, but -- you know, I would bring it to

2

the CO because ultimately the CO is the appeal authority.

3

Q.

When you tell -- after the C&A board meets and you

4

recommend POI MAX and it goes to the CO and the CO approves it, what

5

do you tell Manning -- what do you tell PFC Manning?

6

A.

I never -- I’d never say never -- it wasn’t standard that

7

once I -- once the C&A sheet came back this is what the CO approved,

8

I didn’t go back and brief all the prisoners that were on the C&A

9

board that day unless -- specifically the ones that had a change.

It

10

eventually came up though whenever he started -- whenever -- not he

11

started the conversation -- whenever the conversation would come up

12

about either C&A boards, custody, classification, those things --

13

they all kind of go together.

14

results come back and maintain the status -- current status.

15

his C&A board went on Friday, I didn’t get the -- we didn’t get the

16

results back from the CO because those went to the admin’ section --

17

but we didn’t go get those and go brief everybody that remained in

18

the present -- current status.

19

Q.

We would talk about those -- how the
So if

Would you talk about it at the next weekly meeting because

20

they’re supposed to be notified that these boards are taking place,

21

so they know it’s happened?

22
23

A.

Correct, ma’am.

They’re notified prior -- prior to the

board actually happening -- asked if they want to appear or not.

4509

And

08396

1

then if I talk to him next week during that weekly conversation, if

2

we were speaking and, you know, we started talking about custody,

3

classification, POI, those type things, ma’am, then yes, you know, if

4

he -- you know, if he asked why am I in current status.

5

the C&A board went and the Commanding Officer has approved that

6

you’re going to stay in the current status.

7

answer because it was the commanding officer’s answer.

8
9

Q.

Ultimately

And that was always the

You testified earlier that you were concerned when PFC

Manning appeared at the board that you had that dual role of his

10

counselor as well as the board member.

And if he knew that you were

11

recommending continuation on POI status MAX that might chill your

12

communication?

13

A.

Yes, ma’am.

14

Q.

When -- before that when you and PFC Manning talked about

15

the results of the board, would you just tell -- would you tell him

16

what the results of the boards were or what you recommended or both?

17

I mean, did it ever come up with him on what you were recommending

18

one way or the other?

19

A.

It did, ma’am, a couple of different times throughout his

20

confinement.

21

didn’t keep it a secret what my recommendation was.

22

why -- the first time he did appear before the board, I wanted to

23

specifically talk to him about -- just so you understand this is --

I don’t remember specifically when it did.

4510

But I -- I

In fact, that’s

08397

1

this is my role.

2

our relationship as -- me as your counselor.

3

Understand that, you know, these are different.

4

of my recommendation, ma’am.

5

Q.

I don’t want it in any way, shape or form to affect
And this is my role.
So he was well aware

You testified earlier that you were not concerned about the

6

impact on PFC Manning by keeping him on POI status for -- I guess at

7

the time that he left was about nine months?

8

A.

Yes, ma’am.

9

Q.

You also testified that the longest you’d ever seen it

10

before was a month, and that was not the norm either?

11

A.

Correct, ma’am.

12

Q.

Why were you not concerned that -- that set of restrictions

13
14

could be detrimental for someone over a long period of time?
A.

I -- I saw no -- any kind of mental or physical behavioral

15

-- any kind -- any kind of significant change in it.

If -- if --

16

huge weight gain or loss was an issue.

17

or mental state was definitely apparently eroding, then it would.

18

That’s why there was times during -- you know, I would ask, hey, how

19

do you feel now?

20

Manning, for real, tell me.

21

right now?

22

know if this is a quote or not, but pretty close -- I feel as good as

23

the day I got here or, you know, and I was like for reals, tell me.

If -- you know, his conduct

Like I remember one time -- break it down, like,
You know, compared to -- how do you feel

And then he would -- I remember him saying -- I don’t

4511

08398

1

You know, and he stressed that he felt as when he got here.

2

I mean I did -- so I guess I was concerned enough to ask that.

3

at no point did I see cause for concern coming from his appearance,

4

his -- the way he -- you know, the way he behaved, the way he spoke,

5

noth -- there’s no significant change in anything.

6

Q.

personnel put people in POI?

8

frequently?
A.

But

In your experience, I mean, how often do -- do brig

7

9

So I --

Yes, ma’am.

Is that something that’s done

It’s done -- it’s done pretty frequently.

I

10

tell you out at Camp Pendleton -- and I hate to mention Camp

11

Pendleton when we’re talking about Quantico, but it’s just an example

12

of a completely different facility.

13

now is maybe 30 - 35 depending.

14

It’s rare that we don’t have at least one on POI.

15

that we don’t have one on almost on -- not quite as often for SR, but

16

POI; there’s almost always one on POI.

17

MAX for a very long time.

18

Q.

Out there my average count right

There’s always at least one on POI.

There’s plenty that are on

You also testified that PFC Manning’s behaviors were not

19

normal for a person in maximum custody.

20

maximum custody do in his cell from 0500 to 2200?

21

A.

It’s almost rare

What does a normal person in

A lot of time they sit there -- reading and watching TV is

22

a huge one, ma’am.

23

that’s a big one.

Crossword puzzles, write letters, Sudoku -Crosswords and Sudoku are very popular.

4512

08399

1

Q.

In a couple of the entries you said that PFC Manning would

2

sit on his bed Indian style I guess staring straight ahead or staring

3

at the floor --

4

A.

Yes, ma’am.

5

Q.

-- was that just for those two entries or was that

6
7

consistent conduct along the way?
A.

It was consistent along the way.

8

in those two entries and no other ones.

9

along the way.

I don’t know why I put it

I mean it was consistent

It wasn’t -- I’m not going to say every time I walked

10

down there he was sitting there like that.

11

for me to walk down there and see him sitting like that.

12

went down there and he’s just -- sometimes he was reading.

13

he was standing up.

14

that note aside from maybe it just popped in my mind as I was typing.

15

Q.

Okay.

But it wasn’t uncommon
Sometimes I
Sometimes

So I don’t know why specifically I put it in

And the last question I had is were you aware of any

16

other prisoners or detainees -- explain to me that again; what’s the

17

difference between -- a detainee is no longer a detainee, it’s a

18

prisoner -- it’s a pretrial prisoner?

19

A.

It’s all about legal status, ma’am.

A detainee or a

20

pretrial prisoner now is somebody that’s confined awaiting court-

21

martial.

22
23

Q.
used word.

Okay, I know that.

But I guess detainee is no longer the

It’s now pretrial prisoner?

4513

08400

1

A.

No, ma’am, if we’re out talking, I very well may use the

2

word “detainee.”

But as I write policy out at Camp Pendleton, the

3

word detainee is not going to be in any policies.

4

post-trial or pretrial prisoner.

It’s going to be

5

Q.

When did that start?

6

A.

Once the -- it -- it comes from the BUPERS instruction,

7

ma’am.

That became our -- I don’t know when it became, hey, this is

8

now an authority -- directive for us to follow.

9

period before that was an official directive for us that we knew it

There was a long

10

was coming.

11

started looking at the BUPERS instruction as well even though stuff

12

in there wasn’t required.

13

when it actually came into effect as our -- as a governing directive

14

for us.

15

post-trial.

16

instruction.

17

Q.

18
19

So we started -- doing a preemptive strike to where we

We knew it was coming.

So I don’t know

But the BUPERS instruction is what changes from pretrial to
And the SECNAV Instruction is actual senior to BUPERS

Were any pretrial -- other pretrial detainees housed

anywhere near PFC Manning so he could talk to them?
A.

Yes, ma’am.

There was -- there was times where somebody

20

was, you know, right next to him.

21

somebody -- leave one cell gap and somebody next to him -- or next to

22

that cell, I mean.

23

Q.

There was times where there was

Would PFC Manning be able to talk to somebody two cells

4514

08401

1
2

away in a low conversational tone?
A.

Oh, yes, ma’am.

I’ve done it with multiple prisoners.

The

3

way -- the way the rows are -- the long rows, there’s 12 cells on the

4

long row.

5

conversations with prisoners from both ends of the row as a group

6

conversation, sitting there talking to them about -- either talking

7

about football or something like that, ma’am.

8

echo and -- it’s just designed, you can have a conversation with --

9

from cell 1 to cell 12 without having to scream.

I’ve stood in the middle of that row and I’ve had

I mean, the way the

Now if it’s hot in

10

there and we have the fans and the blowers on it’s obviously harder.

11

But, no, it doesn’t -- you don’t have to yell to talk to somebody two

12

cells away.

13
14
15
16

Q.

Was there any effort by brig personnel to keep people away

from PFC Manning?
A.

Pretrial ----

I -- I never -- I was never told, hey, nobody lives here --

nobody lives near Manning.

17

Q.

Did you ever see him talk to any other pretrial prisoners?

18

A.

Not specifically, ma’am.

I know there was somebody that we

19

had that did talk to him or as least attempt to talk to him.

Now I

20

don’t know which way the communication went.

21

tried to talk to this other prisoner or if the other prisoner tried

22

to talk to Manning.

23

And I don’t -- and, again, I don’t know remember which one, but one

I don’t know if Manning

But there was an attempt at some kind of dialog.

4515

08402

1

of them didn’t want to talk to the other one.

2

was from Manning or the other detainee’s side.

3

I don’t remember him ever actually conversating outside of maybe a

4

quick, hey, how’s the chow or something like that.

5

engaging and developing any kind of relationship with anybody.

6

MJ:

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

But aside from that,

Never actually

Any follow-up based on that?

9
10

I don’t know if that

No, Your Honor.
Just one question, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. Coombs]:
Q.

You were asked whether or not you ever expressed any

12

concern of PFC Manning about being on POI for a great length of time.

13

Do you recall that?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And you -- you said that you asked PFC Manning a question

16
17

because you were concerned?
A.

Yes, sir.

I mean, being that I asked that question I guess

18

I did have some kind of concern enough to ask that question.

19

was never seriously concerned like, wow, I think this is really

20

messing Manning up.

21
22
23

Q.

But I

And if his response to you was “yes” when you asked that

question, yes, this is really messing me up what would you have done?
A.

At first I would have asked him -- I would have went off of

4516

08403

1

that comment, hey, like how?

Tell me -- tell me what’s -- you know,

2

how’s it messing you up?

3

you don’t look any different.

4

You’re not behaving any different.

5

got a 100 different directions related to -- my -- my actions would

6

be dependent on the total -- the totality of that conversation if it

7

happened.

I’d tell him -- ask him -- look, I don’t -You’re not talking any different.
So tell me how.

I mean we can

8

Q.

Is causing him to be depressed and withdrawn?

9

A.

I mean, at a bare minimum?

I would definitely talk to

10

Master Sergeant Papakie, the CO, and depending on which psych was

11

there, I mean, I -- I always did try to talk to the psych.

12

Russell I was able to speak to pretty well.

Colonel

13

Q.

And what would you try to do then?

14

A.

I’d talk to the psych like, hey, where do we go from here?

15

Like what’ll -- how do we fix this?

You know, as simple as that.

16

How do we fix this and at the same time protect him from himself and

17

maintain security?

18

I don’t have that answer.

19

between leadership at the brig and the psych’, you know, we’d be able

20

to come up with an answer.

21

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

22

WIT: Yes, sir.

23

MJ:

How do we accomplish all of our objectives?

And

And hopefully collectively, you know,

Thank you.

Is there anything else that we need from this witness?

4517

08404

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

No, Your Honor.

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

No, Your Honor.

3

[The witness was permanently excused, duly warned, and withdrew from

4

the courtroom.]

5
6
7

MJ:

All right, counsel, is there -- well, before I proceed,

defense, 435I, what is this and where did it come from?
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Your Honor, 435I was provided to the defense

8

in discovery. I believe what it is is a documentation from the C&A

9

board on that day.

10

And it also covers the conversation by both Gunny

Fuller and Gunny Sergeant Blenis with PFC Manning.

11

MJ:

Okay, so you got this in discovery from the government?

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

13

MJ:

Yes, Your Honor.

All right, in light of the time I’m thinking perhaps it’s

14

best to address the government’s motion to reconsider perhaps at the

15

next session?

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

18

MJ:

19
20

Yes, ma’am.
Yes, Your Honor.

Anything else we need to address before we recess the court

today?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma’am, there’s only one other thing.

It’s an

21

administrative issue.

The government tonight is updating its witness

22

list to delete witnesses from the government’s witness list and is

23

changing some of the descriptions.

4518

So we just need to get it marked

08405

1

so we can put it on the record -- the marking of it the next session.

2

MJ:

That’s fine.

3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

4

MJ:

Yes, ma’am.

Is there anything else that we need to address other than

5

the start time for court at the next session, which I believe is the

6

5th of December?

7

Looking at the witnesses we have to go through, perhaps 9:30 is a

8

better start time again?

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

The default had been before to begin at 10 o’clock.

Yes, ma’am.

10

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

MJ:

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

MJ:

15
16

Okay.

Yes, ma’am.

Anything else we need to address?
No, ma’am.

No, ma’am.

Court is in recess.

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 2014, 2 December 2012.]
[END OF PAGE]

4519

08406

1

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 0932, 5 December

2

2012]

3

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

4

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

5

again present in court.

6
7
8

Do we have any housekeeping matters that we need to address
before we proceed with the witnesses?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

Yes, Your Honor.

On--during the last session, after it recessed, the United

10

States filed with the Court and the defense the updated prosecution

11

witness list, dated 2 December of 2012.

12

and has been marked as Appellate Exhibit 437 and a redacted

13

unclassified version has been filed as Appellate Exhibit 436.

14
15

MJ:

All right, is there anything else we need to address before

we call the witnesses?

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

MJ:

19

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

20

The original is classified

No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.

All right, please proceed.
Your Honor, the United States calls Master

Sergeant Brian Papakie.

4520

08407

1

MASTER SERGEANT BRIAN PAPAKIE, U.S. Marine Corps, was called as a

2

witness for the prosecution, was sworn, and testified as follows:

3
4
5

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT VON Elten]:
Q.

Just for the record, you're Master Sergeant Brian Papakie;

6

Projects Manager; Plans, Policies & Operations, Marine Corps,

7

Washington, D.C.?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

Thank you.

10

Good morning, Master Sergeant.

11

A.

Good morning, sir.

12

Q.

How long have you been in the Marine Corps?

13

A.

Twenty-one years, sir, just over.

14

Q.

And how many of those years have you been in corrections?

15

A.

All 21.

16

Q.

And what work have you done in corrections in the Marine

17
18

Corps?
A.

I've held every key position within the facility; all the

19

junior positions, all the way up to all of the chief billets, each

20

department, to include the administrative chief, programs chief,

21

operations, and security.

22
23

Q.

Would that include being--having been a duty brig

supervisor?

4521

08408

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And would also that include having been a counselor?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

How long were you a counselor?

5

A.

Approximately a year.

6

Q.

And what did you do as a counselor?

7

A.

At first, I started out in the brig.

Basically, your

8

average counselor duties, as far as dealing with prisoners, their

9

commands; making sure that they were in touch with their lawyers; any

10

issues that they had with, like, the programs that they were

11

attending; and I also worked out of correctional custody unit.

12

Individuals that were NJP'd, we were restoring them back to duty and

13

I did counselor duties out there; did a lot of teaching classes in

14

conjunction with my counselor duties.

15

Q.

How long were you at the brig at Quantico?

16

A.

Four years.

17

Q.

What positions did you hold there?

18

A.

While I was there, I held the programs chief billet,

19

administrative chief, and brig supervisor.

20

Q.

How long were you the brig supervisor?

21

A.

[Pause] All of 2010 and 2011, almost 2 years.

22

Q.

Thank you, Master Sergeant.

23

And what is your duty title today?

4522

08409

1

A.

The special projects manager for Washington, D.C.

2

Q.

And what do you do as a special projects manager?

3

A.

I handle the Corrections Department, the individuals that

4

the departments up there under the CORMIS--the CORMIS system, parole

5

and clemency, victim-witness, the schools for the MOS, everything

6

gets routed through me.

7

Q.

And what does that entail?

8

A.

Just making sure that the operations as far as, like, with

9

schools, for example, making sure that all the individuals within our

10

MOS are getting the proper school seats, whether they're in a Marine

11

Corps facility or a Navy facility; dealing with victim-witness,

12

making sure that all the brigs are reporting the victim-witness

13

reports appropriately and then reporting that up the chain; parole

14

and clemency, making sure that we're in the guide--within the

15

guidelines of NAMALA.

16

Q.

What is "NAMALA"?

17

A.

That's the--I forget the acronym, sir; I apologize.

18

the branch that fronts the parole and clemency.

19

has to be routed through them.

20
21

Q.

That's

All of our paperwork

So let's talk a little bit about your time in Quantico as

the brig supervisor.

What did you do as the brig supervisor?

4523

08410

1

A.

I basically ran the facility, sir.

I was basically in

2

charge of making sure that that facility and every department ran

3

smoothly on a daily basis.

4
5

Q.

And would that include being in charge of the Programs

Group?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And what does the Programs Group do?

8

A.

Programs in a Marine Corps facility, in Quantico, for

9

example, basically we handle the counseling of the prisoners and

10

detainees that are within the facility but also handling the

11

Programs, and when I say "Programs" I mean interest groups that come

12

into the facility to support the prisoner detainee activity, such as

13

the chaplains, maybe substance abuse; anything that is in conjunction

14

with their treatment, any type of treatment that a prisoner is

15

receiving while they're there.

16
17
18

Q.

And how would a pretrial prisoner receive mental health

treatment?
A.

We would have to arrange that, obviously through Pro--

19

through the Programs Department, and that's basically done through

20

one of their counselors and is usually routed through either, like,

21

maybe the senior counselor or the Programs chief, depending on what

22

that facility has, and we'll contact the Mental Health Department or

23

medical first to make sure that that takes place.

4524

08411

1

Q.

2

health care?

3

A.

We usually do that through the medical officer at OCS.

4

Q.

And can a pretrial prisoner request mental health

5

And who initiates making sure pretrial prisoners get mental

treatment?

6

A.

They can.

7

Q.

What if a pretrial prisoner requires mental health

8
9

treatment but doesn't request it?
A.

We would still make sure that they got that treatment.

10

MJ:

What is "OCS"?

11

WIT: Officer Candidate School, ma'am.

12

Q.

What other counseling is available to detainees?

13

A.

When you say "other counseling," sir, you know, besides the

14

things that I described, basically day-to-day interaction, making

15

sure that they don't have any kind of problems within the facility;

16

needs with their commands.

17

Q.

What about something like PTSD?

18

A.

We had an outside group come in.

Ms. McClain used to come

19

in and deal one-on-one with the PTSD prisoners and detainees that we

20

had housed within the facility and that was actually her specialty.

21
22

Q.

And what do you think the purpose of confinement is for

pretrial prisoners?

4525

08412

1

A.

Pretrial prisoners are basically warehoused within the

2

facility to ensure that they get to trial and because they're a

3

flight risk.

4

Q.

Master Sergeant, let's talk a little bit about Captain

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Were you working at the brig when Captain Webb committed

5

8

Webb.

suicide?

9

A.

I was, sir.

10

Q.

And how did he commit suicide?

11

A.

He had taken several pills the night before and put a

12

plastic bag, plastic trash bag over his head.

13

Q.

What was the brig's response to the suicide?

14

A.

We had never experienced anything like that before, so

15

everything tightened up quite a bit.

16

charge of the investigation that came over on a regular basis to

17

conduct the investigation, but we basically from that standpoint just

18

kind of reviewed our procedures to make sure that, you know, all the

19

t's were crossed and all the i's were dotted.

We had a colonel that was in

20

Q.

And what did the investigation ultimately conclude?

21

A.

That we were not at fault.

4526

08413

1

Q.

2

Quantico.

3

the brig?

Let's talk a little bit about PFC Manning's confinement at
When did you first learn that PFC Manning was coming to

4

A.

I'm going to say maybe 2 weeks before he got there, sir.

5

Q.

And how did you learn?

6

A.

I think it was through an e-mail.

7

that was sent out.

8
9

It was a mass e-mail

Q.

What was your typical response when learning about any

detainee coming to the brig?

10

A.

Just your average detainee coming to the facility.

The

11

only thing that was different about this one was he was coming from

12

Iraq.

13

Q.

So what steps did you take?

14

A.

The only thing that we did really different was we made

15
16
17
18

sure some of the senior staff was on hand the night that he came in.
Q.

What interaction did you have with the duty brig

supervisor?
A.

I stayed there throughout the night until PFC Manning was

19

actually housed in his cell; went through the paperwork after it was

20

complete.

21

confinement process and stayed out of the way; that's his

22

responsibility, that's his job, and he's perfectly capable of it.

I let the duty brig supervisor basically conduct his

23

4527

08414

1

Q.

Is this part of the in-processing process?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And how often does a DBS, a duty brig supervisor, override

4

a decision based on the initial classification sheet?

5

A.

I'd say maybe 30 to 40 percent of the time.

6

Q.

And what happens if a DBS overrides that decision?

7

A.

Headquarters, Marine Corps gets--it's kind of like they get

8

a ping that the system was overridden, because everything that we do

9

on paperwork gets entered into an electronic system and they get kind

10

of like a notice, so to speak, through the system that says, hey,

11

this--the status of this custody has been overridden and they usually

12

ask for justification.

13
14
15

Q.

What kind of paperwork did PFC Manning or came for PFC

Manning prior to or with him during in-processing?
A.

There really wasn't much at first.

We had to go back to

16

the command and ask for--ask for more.

17

charge sheet.

18

entailed, and then there were--there was some basic things about what

19

had taken place during his confinement while he was in Kuwait.

20
21
22
23

Q.

It was a--it was a very basic

I don't remember the specifics as far as what it

When during in-processing does the brig explain to a new

detainee how to address the guards?
A.

It starts from the moment they walk in the door.

Basically, when they walk in for the most part the staff that's there

4528

08415

1

during the confinement process addresses the guards that bring the

2

individual first, explain what's going to take place, and then from

3

the moment that the individual's addressed, the detainee or prisoner

4

rank structure is immediately started off with.

5

Q.

And why is it started immediately?

6

A.

So that they understand, basically, how everything is

7

structured within the facility as far as the ranks, the positions;

8

how to address the staff so that there's no confusion about how to

9

address the staff; how to follow orders; how to respond to the

10

orders.

11

Q.

12

new detainee?

13

A.

And when does the staff explain the grievance process to a

Some of it is explained there in Receiving and Release upon

14

the confinement, but then it's further explained once they get to

15

their cell because that's where the--they receive--the grievance

16

process is basically a DD Form 510; it's a chit that basically

17

requests for the inmate to speak to anybody that they wish to within

18

the facility, and it's further explained once they get to their cell.

19
20
21

Q.

And when does the brig staff explain the other rules and

regulations of the brig?
A.

During indoc; there's an indoc class that takes place, and

22

they go through the ins and outs of the facility; what to do; what

23

not to do; what programs are available.

4529

08416

1
2
3

Q.

And how does the brig staff know a detainee understands the

rules and regulations?
A.

They take a test, and if they don't pass that test, we go--

4

we go over it again with them, remediate them, and then have them

5

take the test again and we'll continue the process until they

6

understand.

7
8
9

Q.

What did PFC Manning say during his in-processing about his

background summary that you remember?
A.

I remember he had a writing, something about he had

10

actually had a form of assault that--you know, the one thing that

11

does stand out is that when asked about suicide, if he had thoughts

12

about it, he had checked the box but didn't stop there.

13

and made a comment in the lines below it that said that he was

14

"always planning, never acting."

15
16
17
18

Q.

He went on

After in-processing, how often did you interact with PFC

Manning?
A.

Every day, although the interactions were fairly short.

I

made rounds through Special Quarters every day.

19

Q.

How would you interact with him?

20

A.

When I go down there, I talk to each individual prisoner or

21

detainee that's down there; just basically go down there and check on

22

their status; make sure that they don't have any problems with chow;

23

no problems, of course, with the guards; make sure that their well-

4530

08417

1

being is okay.

For the most part, sometimes I'll spend, you know, 5

2

or 10 minutes talking to any one individual, because they usually

3

enjoy the company.

4

Q.

Did PFC Manning ever raise concerns to you in person?

5

A.

No; no, sir.

6

Q.

What would the staff report to you about PFC Manning?

7

A.

It was for the most part kind of erratic behavior; just

8

peculiar actions within his cell as far as him making faces or

9

they'll say he played peek-a-boo in the mirror; one time tried to

10

pluck his unibrow with his glasses; lifting fake weights.

11

one time that he was licking the bars of the cell.

12

than that, when he wasn't doing anything, he would just kind of sit

13

Indian style on his rack.

14
15
16

Q.

I was told

And then other

And what would the brig staff say about the level of

communication with PFC Manning?
A.

There really wasn't much.

You know, he didn't really talk

17

to the guards that much at all, but even more so when I pinged some

18

of the senior staff to find out what their interactions were, it was

19

basically the same as mine:

20

think if he could have shooed me along, he would have told me to

21

please move on.

22
23

Q.

quick, short, to the point; I'm fine.

And how did these reports affect your assessments of PFC

Manning?

4531

I

08418

1

A.

I had a lot of concerns.

You know, during my time as a

2

counselor, even as a junior corporal, all the way up to where I'm at

3

now, never had a prisoner or detainee not want to talk to me.

4

had several interactions with all sorts of individuals in there for

5

committing crimes or in there for alleged, you know, awaiting trial,

6

and either case I haven't had an issue.

I've

He was kind of the first.

7

Q.

But what if a detainee is just shy and not very talkative?

8

A.

I've had that before; kind of talked to the--talked to the

9

other guards or whatever and make sure that there's not a problem;

10

talk to the counselor.

If that's the case, try and spend maybe a

11

little bit more time with them, but you usually can get a vibe with

12

open-ended questions of whether or not they really want to talk to

13

you or not.

14

Q.

Did you report your concerns to the Brig OICs?

15

A.

I did, sir.

16

Q.

Why?

17

A.

It's my responsibility as the brig supervisor to report

18

everything that happens within that facility.

19

supervisor was to, basically, know the ins and outs of the facility,

20

everything from the structure to the prisoners and detainees that are

21

confined in it and report everything that I saw that was going on.

22
23

Q.

My role as the brig

So what recommendations did you ultimately make to the Brig

OICs?

4532

08419

1

A.

I can't think of one instance where I didn't go in there

2

and express my concerns with--I thought basically that he was going

3

to hurt himself.

4
5
6

Q.

How did your recommendations change as PFC Manning's

confinement continued?
A.

There was, I want to say it was around the December time

7

frame, a few of us staff members had considered recommending taking

8

him off of POI.

9

two and then January 18th took place so that kind of--it changed our

10

We had talked about it, I'd say, maybe for a week or

mindset.

11

Q.

How often did you talk to then Gunnery Sergeant Blenis?

12

A.

Every day.

13

Q.

And what would Gunnery Sergeant Blenis tell you?

14

A.

He basically explained in full lengths and detail almost

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

every counseling session between PFC Manning and himself.
Q.

And how often would you talk to members of the

classification and assignment boards?
A.

I'd say, on average, maybe 50 percent of the time after the

board.
Q.

And what effect did those conversations have on your

recommendations?
A.

It raised more concerns.

4533

08420

1

Q.

Did you talk to the classification and assignment--what did

2

the classification and assignment board members tell you after PFC

3

Manning appeared in January before the board?

4

A.

He appeared before the board I believe twice, and the one

5

time I don't really recall what took place, but the other time, the

6

instance that kind of stood out was that he was asked a question

7

regarding his confinement paperwork:

8

acting."

9

meant and he--his statement was that that could have been false; and

10

then I don't really recall what was asked after that, but it kind of

11

was an opportunity to put PFC Manning--kind of answer it differently,

12

to give him an opportunity to answer it differently, and he answered

13

it the exact same way and it just--it really gave cause for concern

14

because the senior member of the board asked him again.

15

you understand what I just asked you?" and I--like I said, I don't

16

remember exactly what was said, but I know he was given an

17

opportunity to check himself, make sure he understood what he was

18

asked, and he answered the exact same way.

19
20
21

Q.

"always planning, never

The senior member of the board asked him kind of what that

He said, "Do

And how often do classification assignment boards document

their findings on a form?
A.

We didn't at first.

Just kind of to better our practices,

22

I would say, December, January time frame, I don't remember when it

23

was, we started documenting everything.

4534

08421

1
2
3
4
5

Q.

What is typical in Marine Corps practice for documentation

of classification and assignment boards?
A.

It's not done.

That's a brig Form; that's an in-house form

that we generated ourselves.
Q.

There's not a requirement for written.

Master Sergeant, you just mentioned--we just talked a

6

little bit about Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.

7

you have in him?

How much confidence did

8

A.

A hundred percent.

9

Q.

Why?

10

A.

I've known him through the career, drill field, working

11

over at the battalion, company gunny, the different duties that he's

12

been assigned; his background, where he came from.

13

motor transport; came over from motor transport with a real good

14

background and I hadn't heard not one negative thing about him.

15

knew what his tempo was as far as his work performance, his

16

interactions with people; a hundred percent confidence.

17

Q.

He was originally

Let's change topics for a second and talk a little bit

18

about PFC Manning, the conditions of his confinement.

19

Manning's cell get natural light?

20

A.

I

There's actually three areas.

Where did PFC

There was a skylight kind

21

of--kind of offset but almost over top of his cell; at the end of the

22

row that he was on, the very far end, there was windows down that

23

side; and then right by his cell, the hatch that was there had a

4535

08422

1

porthole, like a 12 by 12, right outside that were windows in the

2

main hallway that let in natural light.

3

Q.

And where was PFC Manning's cell located?

4

A.

He was the very first cell on Alpha row.

Basically as soon

5

as you walk in Special Quarters, he was right there on the right-hand

6

side.

7
8

Q.

And how many others prisoners were housed in Special

Quarters?

9

A.

On average, I'd say between 7 and 13.

10

Q.

How many prisoners were not housed on Special Quarters?

11

A.

There were none.

12

Q.

Why was that?

13

A.

That was designated as our place of confinement.

14

All of

our prisoners and detainees were housed in Special Quarters.

15

Q.

And what about a light outside of PFC Manning's cell?

16

A.

We had the row lights, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta row

17

all had lights on in the hallways that remained lit throughout the

18

night.

19

Q.

And why did those lights remain lit?

20

A.

It's for the guard staff so they could see what they're

21
22
23

doing.
Q.

Would a detainee be able to talk to an inmate who was in a

cell two cells down?

4536

08423

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

How often did PFC Manning have a detainee in an adjacent

4

A.

One time.

5

Q.

And how often did PFC Manning talk to other detainees that

6

you know of?

7

A.

3

cell?

I only recall two individuals being anywhere near him.

8

One--the one that was right next to him, I know they had a few

9

conversations, because I actually spoke to the individual that was

10

housed next to him; and then not long after we ended up moving him

11

for whatever reason.

12
13

Q.
related?

14
15

In your experience, how are recreation call and status

A.

I'm sorry.

Can you ask the question again?

I was a little

distracted.

16

Q.

That's all right.

17

A.

Thank you, sir.

18

Q.

In your experience, how is the amount of recreation call

19

related to a detainee's status?

20

A.

Recreation call is pretty much a standard.

You know, each

21

prisoner or detainee is supposed to get an hour of recreation call a

22

day.

4537

08424

1
2
3

Q.

Why would a detainee, then, get 20 minutes of sunshine

A.

In SECNAV, the brig CO basically states in there that they

call?

4

have the restriction due to suicidal reasons or other hazardous or

5

security concerns to restrict some of their activities.

6
7

Q.

Let's talk a little bit about PFC Manning's--the

restrictions placed on his confinement.

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

By the end of 2010, how often had PFC Manning complained

10

about his custody and status?

11

A.

When in 2010?

12

Q.

By the end of 2010.

13

A.

I don't really recall any instance where he had complained.

14

Q.

And how many other prisoners use the chit system?

15

A.

All of them.

16

Q.

How frequently?

17

A.

I'd say on a regular basis.

You know, they used it for

18

anything that you could think of, maybe a--couldn't--had trouble

19

calling home; hadn't heard from their command; had concerns about,

20

you know, maybe their wife or their spouse or something that was

21

going on at home; a book that wasn't on the book card; you name it,

22

they used the request system for that.

4538

08425

1
2

Q.
2011.

3

Let's talk a little bit about the morning of 18 January

Do you remember what happened on that day?
A.

Yes, sir.

He had had--PFC Manning had had an incident

4

while he was at recreation call where he had kind of fell back on his

5

butt and then had kind of ran away from the guards and started

6

crying.

7

Q.

What do you remember about protests around that time?

8

A.

Honestly, until last week I didn't know the protest--I know

9
10
11
12
13

now--I didn't know that the protest was that weekend prior to that
date.
Q.

And when did you first learn that PFC Manning had fallen to

the ground on that day?
A.

I was at chow when it happened, so I was out.

As soon as I

14

came back in the facility, the guard--the guard staff, I believe it

15

was the DBS had come to tell me about it and then Gunnery Sergeant

16

Fuller shortly after.

17

Q.

And how did you respond?

18

A.

They were writing the incident reports.

I wanted the

19

incident reports right away, so I made sure that the guard staff that

20

was on hand down there that saw it was relieved and that they were

21

writing their incident reports; wanted the paperwork right away.

22

seemed like the situation was handled, so I didn't really think

4539

It

08426

1

anything of it.

I went down later on just to make sure that PFC

2

Manning was okay.

3

Q.

How much later on did you go down?

4

A.

I'd probably say an hour after I was back in the facility.

5

Q.

And what did you find when you went to go investigate?

6

A.

I went down to his cell, kind of stood there and just asked

7

him about what took place down at recreation call, and, you know, it

8

was his typical demeanor, kind of calm at first.

9

asked him about the incident, he got kind of worked up, almost to the

10

level of hyperventilating, breathing heavy, like he was going to have

11

a panic attack.

12

Special Quarters, told him--I was calm in my demeanor--"Calm down;

13

there's nothing to get excited about," and we just kind of started

14

through the situation; and then shortly after that, Chief Warrant

15

Officer Averhart walked in because he had heard about it when he came

16

back to the facility.

Then when I had

I kind of leaned back against the glass window in

17

Q.

And what happened next?

18

A.

When Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in, I went to go--

19

I had stepped--I had stayed in there for a little while during the

20

conversation.

21

had come back in, PFC Manning had--he kind of raised his voice a

22

little bit to Chief Warrant Officer Averhart and said, "Why are you

23

yelling at me?"

I had stepped out for a little bit, and then when I

Chief Warrant Officer Averhart just calmly said,

4540

08427

1

"That's my voice.

I have a deep voice," and then PFC Manning had

2

gotten really upset at that point, you know, breathing heavy.

3

think Chief Warrant Officer Averhart actually had him sit down on his

4

rack at that point just to calm down, and they talked for a little

5

while longer.

6

Manning didn't seem like he--it seemed like he was questioning more

7

why he was on POI status, and Chief Warrant Officer Averhart was

8

going through the explanation of why, the precautions that were being

9

taken, security measures, so on and so forth.

It seemed like everything was calm.

I

He didn't--PFC

10

PFC Manning had gotten upset, said that he was being

11

analyzed all the time, kind of pointed to the glass, you know,

12

"They're all--everybody's always watching me."

13

at that point and started hitting himself in the head, and then he

14

had kind of lunged out of his rack like he was going to punch and

15

then kind of head-butt the bulkhead but then stopped probably an inch

16

before his head hit the bulkhead.

He got real sporadic

17

Q.

And how did he hit himself in the head?

18

A.

If I recall correctly, it was closed fisted on the

19

forehead, just kind of with his fists up.

20

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

21

Q.

The witness put his fist to his forehead.

How much force did he use?

4541

08428

1

A.

It was pretty hard.

You know, I don't remember at the

2

time, but I'm sure as hard as he hit himself, there was probably some

3

red marks.

4
5
6

Q.

And how did that event affect your recommendations going

forward?
A.

It was a major cause of concern.

Neither one of us were

7

down there to make him stressed out.

8

de-escalate the situation, both of us were, and he didn't look at it

9

like that.

10
11
12
13

We were down there to

He thought he was being analyzed.

Like I said, almost

like he was having a panic attack.
Q.

Let's move a little bit forward in time.

When was PFC

Manning counseled about returning his clothing at night?
A.

I want to say the date was somewhere around the beginning

14

of March.

I don't remember exactly what day it was.

15

the next day, and I had received an observation report from one of

16

the corporals down in Special Quarters that he was basically--that

17

PFC Manning was questioning the orders.

18

uniform away, his clothing away, and he didn't want to do it and just

19

basically kept saying that he didn't understand why he had to do it,

20

so I went down there to address the issue with him; kind of talked at

21

length about how he's supposed to follow orders; why his clothes were

22

being taken away.

23

had told me that, no, he didn't understand.

The guard went to take his

I had asked him if he understood.

4542

I had come in

He repeatedly

He didn't understand why

08429

1

he was on the POI status.

2

or four times while I was standing in front of the cell, starting at

3

"A" and finishing at "Z" as to the how's and why's he was on POI

4

status, but even more so that I was down there to address the issue

5

that he is to follow the orders of the guard staff no questions

6

asked.

7
8
9
10

Q.
point.

I probably went through it with him three

Let's talk a little bit about his morning routine at this
What time would his morning begin?

A.

Forgive me it's been a year since I worked in the facility,

so reveille was either at 0-5 or 0530.

I think it was 5:30.

11

Q.

And how would he get his clothing back?

12

A.

The guard staff would put the clothing out prior to

13

reveille, and then once count was secured they'd go through handing

14

out toothbrush, toothpaste, razors, the items to prepare for the day.

15
16
17

Q.

And what was the expectation regarding getting his clothing

and putting it on?
A.

Clothing was supposed to be handed out prior to reveille so

18

the prisoners that have their attire taken away, whether they were

19

Suicide Risk or POI, have their attire to put on prior to count.

20

Q.

Is that the practice in the Marine Corps?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

Have you--what if a prisoner is on Suicide Risk and has no

23

clothing?

4543

08430

1

A.

They're still going to get some sort of attire after

2

reveille, but I know that during my--during the times where I've

3

done--I've been a DBS and have conducted count, they wrap themselves

4

in a blanket or whatever they have and they maintain that blanket on

5

their person.

6

attention during the count process.

7

Suicide Risk with the blanket, we really don't care; we just want

8

them covered.

9

Q.

And is that typical practice in Marine Corps corrections?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

What did PFC Manning tell you about his underwear on

12
13

It's just kind of a modified--we have them stand at
The individuals that are on

2

March 2011?
A.

That was when I had went down there to address the issue

14

about him not following orders from the guard staff and giving up his

15

attire.

16

he really wanted to hurt himself that he could do it with his flip-

17

flops or the elastic band in his underwear.

18

point.

19

he might do something drastic, so addressed it quickly with the guard

20

staff and then quickly went to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis and Chief

21

Warrant Officer Barnes to address the issue.

22

Q.

He had talked about how absurd it was, and he said that if

I was concerned at that

I didn't want to show him that I was concerned for fear that

Why were you concerned?

4544

08431

1

A.

I'm the brig supervisor, making my rounds.

To make a

2

comment like that to me, you've put some serious thought into whether

3

or not you're actually going to say that to that individual.

4

know, I hold a lot of weight in that facility, and for someone to say

5

something--that to me I can't--I can't just brush that off.

6

was certainly some raise for alarm there.

7

right away with Chief Warrant Officer Barnes because I thought that

8

certain measures needed to be taken.

You

There

I needed to address that

9

Q.

What if it's just a sarcastic quip?

10

A.

It may--could have been, but in a confinement facility, in

11

a jail, whatever you want to call it, you don't use words like

12

"escape" or "suicide" and that was along the line--that was along the

13

lines of suicide.

14

those words without repercussions.

You just simply--you just simply just can't say

15

Q.

And how did--and what was the response by the brig staff?

16

A.

We had obviously, like I said, some concerns.

I had told

17

the guard staff before I left to keep a close eye on him.

18

probably be some changes coming down later on that afternoon into the

19

evening; and after talking with Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, I mean,

20

the decision was--it was no questions asked that we--that we needed

21

to make sure that he wasn't going to hurt himself; and if he made a

22

point to point out his underwear, then we had to take his underwear.

23

Q.

What happened the next morning?

4545

There will

08432

1

A.

The next morning, he didn't have his clothing, of course.

2

He had the blankets that he slept with, and when he had stood up for

3

count, for whatever reason he stood naked during count.

4

Sergeant Terry came through and conducted count, he stopped real

5

quick when he noticed that he was uncovered, told him to cover up,

6

and then simply moved on with count.

7

in the morning, Staff Sergeant Terry addressed it with me, and we

8

made sure that PFC Manning was aware that he was supposed to cover

9

up.

10
11
12

When Staff

By the time I had gotten there

Q.

How did you make sure he was aware he was supposed to cover

A.

I believe it was Ms. Barnes that actually went--Chief

up?

13

Warrant Officer Barnes that actually went and addressed it with him

14

herself; that was something that she wanted to take care of.

15

the--we had the conversation--I usually get there before her--had the

16

conversation and she wanted to go down there and talk to him herself

17

about it.

18

Q.

What complaints did PFC Manning file in response?

19

A.

I don't remember any complaints.

20

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

21

WIT: Yes, sir.

22
23

Thank you, Master Sergeant.

[Pause]
MJ:

Go ahead, Mr. Coombs.

4546

We had

08433

1
2
3
4

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

Master Sergeant Papakie, PFC Manning was assigned to

Special Quarters, correct?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And Special Quarters, in your words, was kind of separate

7

from everything else?

8

A.

No, sir.

9

Q.

You don't recall telling that to the defense?

10

A.

No, sir.

11

Q.

So you wouldn't consider Special Quarters being separate

12
13
14

from everything else?
A.

In a normal confinement facility, yes, but Quantico, it

changed; that was their regular housing unit.

15

Q.

And you were required to go through that twice a day.

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And generally you'd go through and check on PFC Manning

18

real quick.

19

A.

20

rounds.

21

Q.

22
23

No, not real quick.

I would go through and make my regular

All right, well I don't want to put words in your mouth, so

would you spend a lot of time with PFC Manning?
A.

I would try to.

4547

08434

1

Q.

And how so?

2

A.

Talk to him, trying to get--trying to get him to talk.

3

Q.

So would you say that you spent a lot of time with him or

4
5
6
7
8

you went through and didn't spend a lot of time with him?
A.

If I didn't spend any time with him, it wasn't by my own

part; it was by his.
Q.

All right, so you occasionally would have a conversation

with him.

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And you said, at least to the defense, that that

11

conversation would never take place for very long.

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

You told the defense that you didn't notice a change in his

14

behavior over time; is that correct?

15

A.

No, that's not correct.

16

Q.

So today, on the stand, you noticed a behavior his--in his-

17
18
19
20
21
22

-or change in his behavior?
A.

I stated earlier that after January 18th he had a--he had a

drastic change.
Q.

All right, so on the stand today, you're saying now after

January 18th he had a drastic change.
A.

Yes, sir.

4548

08435

1
2

Q.

So how about we back up then.

Between 29 July and January

18th, you didn't notice a change in his behavior.

3

A.

Not really, sir.

4

Q.

In other words, it wasn't one way at the very beginning

5

when he got there and something different, apparently, prior to

6

January 18th, correct?

7

A.

Correct, sir.

8

Q.

You did say that sometimes it was sporadic, though.

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

You told the defense that sometimes he would talk more and

11

sometimes he would talk less.

12

A.

No; I don't recall saying that.

13

Q.

You don't recall ever saying that to the defense.

14

A.

No, sir.

15

Q.

So is your testimony now as you sit there, under oath, that

16

he never talked more sometimes and other times talked less?

17

A.

No, sir.

18

Q.

Well, let's just do it with you, because that's what you

19

It was dependent on who he talked to.

would know, correct?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

All right.

22

So is your testimony that he would never

sometimes talk to you more and sometimes talk to you less?

4549

08436

1
2

A.

You're saying never would talk to me more and never talk to

me less.

3

Q.

You had----

4

A.

The way it sounds is you're saying that he never talked to

Q.

No.

5
6

me.
What I'm asking is a simple question.

Do you recall

7

telling the defense that sometimes when you spoke with Manning, he

8

would sometimes talk to you more and sometimes talk to you less?

9

A.

Only when I tried to get--I would ask him kind of open-

10

ended questions, and he'd kind of open up, but for the most part, he

11

wouldn't.

12
13

Q.

So is that a yes, that he would sometimes talk to you more

and sometimes talk to you less?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

PFC Manning was never disrespectful to you.

16

A.

No, sir, he was not.

17

Q.

He was never threatening to any of the staff.

18

A.

No, sir, he was not.

19

Q.

And for the first 6 months, until 10 December 2010, PFC

20

Manning was only authorized 20 minutes of sunshine call, correct?

21

A.

Correct, sir.

22

Q.

And when PFC Manning was on sunshine call, he would be in

23

full hand and leg restraints?

4550

08437

1

A.

For that time, I don't--I don't really remember.

2

Q.

Okay, I'll refresh your memory.

3

[The civilian defense counsel handed a document to the court

4

reporter.

5

handed it to the civilian defense counsel.]

6

The court reporter marked the document as AE 438A and

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I'm handing the witness what's been marked as-

7

---

8

[There was a pause in the proceedings while the civilian defense

9

counsel handed another document to the court reporter to mark.

The

10

court reporter marked the document as AE 438B and handed it to the

11

civilian defense counsel.]

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

13
14
15

I'm handing the witness what's been marked

both as Appellate Exhibit 438A and 438B.
Q.

Master Sergeant, if you would, just take a look at that for

a moment.

16

A.

[Did as directed.]

17

Q.

All right, so, Master Sergeant, again, for the first 6

18

months, until about 10 December, PFC Manning was only permitted 20

19

minutes of sunshine call, correct?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And when PFC Manning was on sunshine call, he would be in

22
23

his full hand and leg restraints?
A.

Yes, sir.

4551

08438

1

Q.

And if he was indoors for his rec call because of inclement

2

weather, his hand restraints would be kept on but the belt and the

3

leg restraints would be taken off.

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

And because of that, being on a bike was acceptable, but in

6

your opinion, being on the treadmill was not.

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

And that was because of a--of the hand restraints; is that

9

correct?

10

A.

For safety reasons, yes, sir.

11

Q.

So if he fell, he wouldn't be able to brace himself as well

12

as he could have without the handcuffs.

13

A.

Correct, sir.

14

Q.

Now did you--do you see where you discuss a difference

15

between PFC Manning and two other detainees?

16

A.

Example, example, example?

17

Q.

Exactly.

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And you don't need to use the other detainees' names, but

20

when he was in full restraints for those 6 months on sunshine call,

21

is my understanding correct that a guard would have to walk with him

22

to prevent him from falling?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

4552

08439

1
2

Q.

And in this outside yard is my understanding correct that

this was a fenced in area with razor wire on top?

3

A.

It was.

4

Q.

And were there security cameras?

5

A.

Not actually pointing to the entire portion of the cell,

6
7
8

but, yes, there was.
Q.

And how many guards would be required to be with PFC

Manning when he was on the outside rec area?

9

A.

Two.

10

Q.

And what about the indoor rec area?

11

A.

Two.

12

Q.

Was the DBS required to be with the two guards?

13

A.

Yes, sir; that's something that we did with all MAXs.

14

Q.

So at a minimum you would have three staff members.

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

Now you never sat on a C&A board, is that correct, as far

17

as for PFC Manning?

18

A.

I don't believe so, sir.

19

MJ:

Can I interrupt you for just a minute?

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

MJ:

22

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

23

MJ:

Yes, ma'am.

What are the numbers of these two e-mails?
The 438--I'm sorry.

Which one?

4553

Alpha----

08440

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: ---- is the multiple-page one, Your Honor.

2

MJ:

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

MJ:

Okay.

Thank you.

5
6
7

And 438B is the single page.

CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

So mainly it was if--from the records it looks like either

8

Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Gunnery Sergeant Fuller, Staff Sergeant

9

Buck, or Staff Sergeant Jordan that sat on these boards; is that your

10

memory?

11

A.

Also I think another staff member was Staff Sergeant Lee.

12

Q.

I'm sorry?

13

A.

I think another member might have been Staff Sergeant Lee.

14

Q.

Lee, okay.

15

And you said that PFC Manning's comment on his intake

16

questionnaire "always planning, never acting" stuck real hard in the

17

staff's mind; is that correct?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And other than the time that PFC Manning appeared before

20

the C&A board on 21 January 2011, do you know if he was ever asked

21

about that statement?

22
23

A.

I believe Gunnery Sergeant Blenis--Master Sergeant Blenis

now--asked him about that statement.

4554

08441

1

Q.

And why do you believe that?

2

A.

We had talked about it.

3

Q.

So from your memory, you would say that Gunnery Sergeant

4

Blenis asked PFC Manning about this statement?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

Would it surprise you if Gunnery Sergeant Blenis said he

7

never asked him about this statement?

8

A.

It would.

9

Q.

From your memory, what do you recall Gunnery Sergeant

10
11

Blenis telling you about this conversation?
A.

It was a long time ago.

I don't--I don't really recall.

12

just remember that he did address it with him, and at the end of the

13

conversation, there was no reason to remove any concerns that he had

14

about him making the statement.

15
16

Q.

Do you recall when this conversation might have taken

place?

17

A.

Not long after he arrived, sir.

18

Q.

So----

19

A.

I would say probably within the first week.

20

Q.

All right, so from your memory, it was addressed with PFC

21
22

Manning during, maybe, the first week after he arrived?
A.

Kind of speculate, but yes.

4555

I

08442

1
2

Q.

And what do you recall Gunnery Sergeant Blenis telling you

about PFC Manning's response?

3

A.

It didn't make him any more comfortable with----

4

Q.

Do you recall specifics, though?

5

A.

No, sir; no specifics.

6

Q.

And, I guess, other than this one week after conversation,

7

was this statement ever addressed with PFC Manning again prior to 21

8

January 2011, to your knowledge?

9

A.

Not to my knowledge, sir.

10

Q.

You had told the defense, though, that you thought the

11

statement by PFC Manning was, quote, his devious way of letting us

12

know that there was something going on in his head, end quote.

13
14
15

Do you recall saying that?
A.

I don't recall saying it but apparently did.

It sounds

like something I would say.

16

Q.

As you sit there on the stand today, do you believe that?

17

A.

To an extent, I really don't feel any different that he

18
19
20

was--he was planning something.
Q.

And that made you uncomfortable about his thought process,

correct?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And you were involved in sometimes providing the results of

23

the C&A board to the Brig OIC, correct?

4556

08443

1

A.

I just did it in conjunction with the board.

I didn't

2

actually always present the board results; that was the board's

3

responsibility.

4

Q.

But sometimes you did.

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And as soon as this is marked, I'm going to show you an e-

7
8
9

mail and I just want to ask you a few questions about it, okay?
A.

Yes, sir.

[The civilian defense counsel handed a document to the court

10

reporter.

11

handed it to the civilian defense counsel.]

12
13

Q.

The court reporter marked the document as AE 438C and

I'm handing you what's been marked Appellate Exhibit 438C

and retrieving from you Appellate Exhibit 438A and B.

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Master Sergeant, this was an e-mail that you sent to Chief

16

Barnes on 4 March 2011; is that correct?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And you were talking about few--a couple other detainees

19

that had been downgraded, correct?

20

A.

I do.

21

Q.

Now I just want you to use the first initial of the

22

detainees if you're going to reference them, okay, with the

23

exception, of course, of PFC Manning?

4557

08444

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

Now looking at Detainee India, I, the medical--it says the

3

medical report for this detainee said that the POI status was not

4

necessary, the risk of harm was low, and all categories were the

5

lowest factors; do you see that?

6

A.

7

Give me a minute [reviewing exhibit].
I do.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

MDI, correct?

And Detainee I was on MAX SR and then downgraded to

10

A.

[Reviewing exhibit.] Yes, sir, he was.

11

Q.

Then you see Detainee K?

12

A.

I do.

13

Q.

And the same thing, the medical report said POI was not

14

necessary, the risk of harm was low, and he was recommended to come

15

off of MAX and POI.

16

A.

[Reviewing exhibit.] I do.

17

Q.

And he was, in fact, reduced down to MDI; you see that?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

Then PFC Manning had a similar report.

His report said his

20

anxiety disorder was in remission; his risk assessment is stable and

21

low; and all categories circled were of the lowest factor.

22

A.

I do.

4558

08445

1
2

Q.

But unlike the other detainees, PFC Manning was not taken

off of MAX and POI, correct?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And can you explain why, from your standpoint?

5

A.

Well, first, I can't compare them to the other--I can't

6

compare him to the other individuals because each individual is

7

different, but just looking at what is written here, Detainee I has

8

strong family ties; no previous diagnosis of depression; all

9

categories were circled in the lowest factor.

Detainee K, all his

10

psychological stressors have been resolved.

11

both of those statements and knowing that Detainee Manning, all his

12

stressors haven't been resolved.

13

lengthy court-martial, potential time at sentence, so it's definitely

14

not the same thing.

15
16

Q.

Well, just looking at

He was still pending a pretty

So Detainee I had a better family relationship and Detainee

K didn't have as many stressors as PFC Manning?

17

A.

Oh, that was just two things that I point out, yes.

18

Q.

How about just any reason why at this point that PFC

19
20

Manning was still on MAX and POI, from your perspective?
A.

From my perspective, if I thought--if--I put myself in the

21

brig CO's shoes.

22

that PFC Manning was going to hurt himself or kill himself.

23

Q.

If I was the brig commander, I would have thought

And why is that?

4559

08446

1

A.

I was very uncomfortable with his lack of interaction with

2

the staff; just kind of the way he removed himself from everything

3

more----

4

Q.

Now was this--and I just want to make sure I----

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

---- know your--understand your testimony.

"Removed

7

himself from everything," this apparently was persistent all the way

8

through up--are you talking about from July 29th to January 18th or

9

are you talking about January 18th afterwards?

10

A.

I would have to say more so after January 18th, because

11

earlier I had stated we had all considered--and I don't remember the

12

time frame but I know we all had the conversation, the brig staff,

13

about what's the possibility of us recommending he come off of POI.

14

Q.

15
16

And we'll talk about that conversation.
Okay, well, let's change gears for a moment.

You knew that

weekly reports were being done on PFC Manning, correct?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And it was out of the norm to do these weekly reports.

19

A.

Definitely.

20

Q.

No other detainees that you were aware of were having

21

weekly reports sent up the chain.

22

A.

No, sir.

23

Q.

And you knew that these were going to Colonel Oltman?

4560

08447

1
2

A.

I think the end result was Colonel Choike, the Base

Commander.

3

Q.

But you knew initially they were going to Colonel Oltman.

4

A.

I believe so, yes.

5

Q.

And then they were going to Colonel Choike.

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

There was obviously a lot of media attention on Quantico or

8

at Quantico----

9

A.

There was, sir.

10

Q.

---- at this point, correct?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And the media was constantly asking questions.

13

A.

They were.

14

Q.

You had a lot of public affair officer questions that were

15
16
17
18
19

being sent to the brig?
A.

Yeah, for the most part, the questions were routed through

Public Affairs and Public Affairs would contact us.
Q.

Right; they would contact you in order to get you to weigh

in on some of the answers that they should provide.

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And going back to what was 438A, that was basically a

22
23

response to questions from the PAO, correct?
A.

Can I see it again, please?

4561

08448

1

Q.

You----

2

A.

I don't remember who it was to and from.

3

[The civilian defense counsel retrieved AE 438A from the court

4

reporter.]

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I'm handing the witness again 438A.

6

WIT: Thank you, sir.

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

It's not a problem.

8

[There was a pause in the proceedings while the witness reviewed AE

9

438A.]

10

WIT: Yes, sir; that is correct.

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12
13

I'm retrieving from the witness 438A and also

438C.
[END OF PAGE]

4562

08449

1
2
3
4

CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

So when PAO would send questions, you or a member of the

staff, if they could, would respond with an answer.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Now you also had people calling the brig about PFC

7

Manning's treatment?

8

A.

Yes, sir; for the most part, those were more anonymous

9

phone calls.

10

Q.

But you were--the brig staff was receiving calls.

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And you had people writing letters to the brig about PFC

13

Manning's treatment?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

You had earlier testified about at least one protest that

16

you were aware of, but you were aware of other protests outside of

17

the Quantico base, correct?

18

A.

I only recall two, that one and another.

19

Q.

And you testified on direct that you recall--you didn't

20

recall the protest being, you know, that weekend before, but then you

21

read something or saw something that refreshed your memory recently?

4563

08450

1

A.

Yes, when I had arrived here for the hearing, reviewing

2

documents.

I had never realized that the dates were in conjunction

3

with each other.

It just never occurred to me.

4

Q.

Okay, so it was based upon reviewing some document.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Now these protests were disruptive to Quantico, correct?

7

A.

To the installation; I wouldn't say so much the brig.

8

Q.

And I just said to Quantico.

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

They required extra manpower to deal with the protests?

11

A.

The Security Battalion did.

12

Q.

And the Security Battalion, that's Colonel Oltman, correct?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And you kept hearing from the base that you're not--they

15

weren't used to having such a high profile detainee, correct?

16

A.

I did hear that, yes.

17

Q.

You also said to your staff in November that, “The subject

18

Manning comes up more often than you think.

19

it's on the news, and it's in our hands as long as he's confined in

20

this brig”.

21
22

Do you recall that?
A.

I do, sir.

4564

It's on the Internet,

08451

1

Q.

Now the Brig OIC, I want to talk about that for a moment.

2

Because of the high profile nature of this, the Brig OIC would have,

3

pretty much, weekly meetings with you and your staff, correct?

4

A.

Nothing scheduled; just kind of spur of the moment.

5

Q.

And these spur-of-the-moment meetings would be about PFC

6
7

Manning.
A.

I wouldn't say specifically just him.

It was more so

8

everything that was going on in the facility.

9

were ones that actually directly involved conversations about him.

10
11

Q.

Occasionally, there

Do you recall some of these meetings being usually held at

the guard mount?

12

A.

There was a couple.

13

Q.

And the Brig OIC wanted to talk to the staff and make sure

14

the staff was okay.

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

Particularly in light of the media attention that was

17

coming upon the staff, correct?

18

A.

[Pause] Yeah, I suppose so.

19

Q.

And you believed that Colonel Oltman and Colonel Choike

20
21

increased their visits to the brig during PFC Manning's time there.
A.

I wouldn't say that Colonel Oltman changed the way he

22

visited at all.

His visits were kind of on a regular basis.

23

to come over prior to on a regular basis and then even after PFC

4565

He used

08452

1

Manning left.

2

that he probably wouldn't normally have come over there.

3
4

Q.

I did see Colonel Choike come over on two occasions

All right, and they would go through the brig with the Brig

OIC when they came over.

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And you knew that Lieutenant General Flynn had his eyes on

7

the Manning situation as well, correct?

8

A.

I suspected.

9

Q.

You were copied on at least one e-mail with Lieutenant

10

General Flynn also on the cc line, right?

11

A.

Okay, I don't--I don't remember that, but yes.

12

Q.

And so obviously at that point--well, I want to make sure

13

your--I know your testimony.

14

were you aware that Lieutenant General Flynn was involved in the

15

case?

16
17
18
19

A.

I am now.

As you're sitting there on the stand,

I mean, I'm not going to say I am now.

It's

been a long time; just probably simply forgot.
Q.

Okay.

Did Colonel Oltman ever talk to you about Lieutenant

General Flynn?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

He never said to you that you shouldn't be pressured by the

22
23

fact that a three-star general is watching?
A.

I don't recall that.

4566

08453

1

Q.

You don't recall Colonel Oltman coming down to the brig and

2

telling the brig staff, you know, you're doing the right thing;

3

continue what you're doing; don't be influenced by Lieutenant General

4

Flynn or anyone else?

5

A.

I remember him coming several times and telling all the

6

staff that we were doing a good job.

7

battalion formations, brig MPs doing a solid job; it was nothing out

8

of the ordinary.

9

Q.

Also in conjunction with

But specifically him saying with regards to attention by

10

Lieutenant General Flynn and others above him that you, the brig

11

staff, should not be influenced by that; you don't recall him coming

12

down and saying that?

13

A.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15
16

No, sir, I do not.
Your Honor, before I continue, may we have a

10- or a 15-minute comfort break?
MJ:

17

All right, why don't we make it 15.
Court is in recess till 5 minutes to 11.

18

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1040, 5 December 2012.]

19

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1056, 5 December

20

2012.]

21

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

22

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

23

again present in court.

The witness is on the witness stand.

4567

08454

1

Mr. Coombs.

2
3

CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. Coombs]:

4

Q.

Master Sergeant Papakie, I remind you, you are still under

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Now you had testified on direct about the anxiety attack

5

8

oath.

PFC Manning had on 18 January 2011, correct?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And I want to ask you a few questions about that.

11

You

recall filling out a incident report on that day, correct?

12

A.

On 18 January, I don't recall.

13

Q.

I'm handing you what's been marked Appellate Exhibit 438D.

14

Does that look familiar to you?

15

A.

It does, sir.

16

Q.

And you filled this out, apparently, right on that day,

17

correct?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

So at the time when the events were the freshest in our

A.

Yes, sir.

20
21

mind.

4568

08455

1

Q.

And I imagine just like anything that's filled out in

2

writing you took care to put down in writing what you believed

3

happened.

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

You didn't leave out any details?

6

A.

Let me look over it real quick [reviewing exhibit].

7

Q.

Well you certainly wouldn't leave out important details,

8

correct?

9

A.

I wouldn't think so, no.

10

Q.

And that's because you know that somebody's going to be

11

looking at this voluntary statement at a later date.

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Plus you actually put your name down on it and you sign it,

14

correct?

15

A.

I do; yes, sir.

16

Q.

So let's talk about what happened on that day.

In the

17

incident report, you say that when you went to speak with PFC

18

Manning, it was approximately, I guess, 1545 hours?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And at that point he displayed confusion and was unable to

21

complete a sentence; is that correct?

22

A.

Correct.

23

Q.

And you asked him to calm down.

4569

08456

1

A.

I did.

2

Q.

And PFC Manning told you that he did not understand why he

3

was being analyzed by the guards.

4

A.

He did.

5

Q.

You then asked him for an example of how he felt he was

6

being analyzed?

7

A.

I did.

8

Q.

And PFC Manning became frustrated and quickly moved towards

9

the back wall, acting as if he was about to punch the wall.

10

A.

He did.

11

Q.

But he didn't punch the wall, correct?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And you instructed him to sit down on his rack?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And he did so.

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And PFC Manning looked at you and clearly stated to you

18

that he did not really understand why he was on POI.

19

A.

[Pause to review exhibit] Yes.

20

Q.

PFC Manning told you that he didn't understand the rules or

21
22
23

the guards.
A.

[Pause to review exhibit] That's not in here but,

basically, yes, sir.

4570

08457

1

Q.

Actually take a look again.

2

A.

[Pause to review exhibit] A----

3

Q.

You see the--towards the bottom of the first paragraph,

4

third sentence from the bottom.

5

A.

Oh, I do; yes, sir.

6

Q.

So he told you he didn't understand the rules or the

7

guards?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And he pointed at the guards' office mirror window, across

10

from his cell, and stated, "I don't understand that."

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

As you began to explain what POI was and his status, that's

13

when Chief Averhart arrived.

14

A.

It was; yes, sir.

15

Q.

I'm sorry?

16

A.

Yes, it was, sir.

17

Q.

And Chief Averhart asked PFC Manning what happened.

18

A.

He did.

19

Q.

And PFC Manning became upset again.

20

A.

He did.

21

Q.

He was having difficulty completing a sentence.

22

A.

Yes.

4571

08458

1
2

Q.

And you told him to calm down and just to speak with you

as--or speak with Chief Averhart as he spoke with you.

3

A.

I did.

4

Q.

And that's when you stepped out for about 5 minutes.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

You don't know what happened during those 5 minutes.

7

A.

No, sir.

8

Q.

So you don't know what Chief Averhart said to PFC Manning.

9

A.

I do not.

10

Q.

You don't know how he said it to PFC Manning.

11

A.

No, sir.

12

Q.

When you returned, PFC Manning was still upset.

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

He still could not complete a sentence.

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

He was still stuttering.

17

A.

He was.

18

Q.

And he said he did not understand why he was being looked

19

at all the time.

20

A.

[Pause to review exhibit] Yes.

21

Q.

And again he said he did not understand his POI status.

22

A.

He did.

4572

08459

1
2

Q.

And that's when Chief Averhart then addressed PFC Manning's

question.

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And PFC Manning apparently interrupted Chief Averhart by

5

saying that it sounded to him that Chief Averhart was yelling at him.

6

A.

He did.

7

Q.

And Chief Averhart said he wasn't yelling.

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

He just said, "I have a deep voice."

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Was his voice level from your memory, Chief Averhart's, the

12

same voice level you addressed PFC Manning on that day?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

You were more quiet than Chief Averhart?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

So then you have Chief Averhart there talking to PFC

17

I was probably a little bit more quiet.

Manning, correct?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And Chief Averhart told PFC Manning that he was there to

20

find out, quote, what was going on with him.

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

And PFC Manning became extremely frustrated and started

23

fidgeting on his rack.

4573

08460

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

He covered his ears with his hands.

3

A.

He did.

4

Q.

He then pulled his hands back quickly and slapped both

5

palms of his hands against the side of his head.

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And you specifically wrote "both palms," correct?

8

A.

I did write "palms."

9

Q.

Not "fists."

10

A.

Correct, sir.

11

Q.

And then PFC Manning yelled, "This is what I'm talking

12

about."

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And when PFC Manning said, "This is what I'm talking

15

about," Chief Averhart stood up and directed you to place PFC Manning

16

on suicide watch.

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

PFC Manning then said, "Why are you doing this to me?"

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

He asked what did he do?

21

A.

[Pause to review exhibit].

22

Q.

Do you recall PFC Manning asked what did he do?

4574

08461

1
2

A.

He probably did.

It's--I don't see that in the statement,

but I'm sure that he did.

3

Q.

And then that's when Chief Averhart left.

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And that's when you started talking to PFC Manning.

6

A.

I did.

7

Q.

Now before we talk about what you spoke to PFC Manning

8

about, I want to go back to what you testified on direct.

9

A.

Okay.

10

Q.

You had a kind of slightly different version of the events

11

on direct.

12

punching himself with a closed fist.

13

You said he started hitting himself in the head; started

Do you recall testifying on direct that----

14

A.

I do.

15

Q.

Do you see that anywhere in your voluntary statement?

16

A.

No.

17

I'm kind of just out of sequence; just didn't recall

until I read it.

18

Q.

I'm sorry.

19

A.

I didn't recall exactly the manner in what--which what he

20

I don't understand.

did until I read it.

21

Q.

So----

22

A.

If I wrote "palms," it was palms.

4575

08462

1
2

Q.

Oh, okay.

So as you're sitting there now, it's what is in

your voluntary statement is----

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

---- what actually happened.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

You also testified that he attempted to head-butt the cage.

7

A.

Not the cage, sir, the bulkhead, the wall.

8

Q.

Head-butt the bulk?

9

A.

Bulkhead.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

The wall.

12

Q.

All right, and do you see that anywhere in your statement?

13

A.

[Pause to review exhibit] I do not.

14

Q.

And so just so I understand your testimony, is your

15

testimony that that happened or now that you've seen your voluntary

16

statement that that probably did not happen?

17

A.

Probably did not.

18

Q.

And then you said that he hit himself pretty hard to where

19

he probably had some red marks.

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Again, do you see that anywhere in your statement?

22

A.

No.

4576

08463

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