Title: Volume FOIA 030

Release Date: 2014-03-20

Text: 09128

Volume 30 of 111
SJAR ROT
FOIA Version

VERBAT IM 1

RECORD OF TRIAL2

(and accompanying papers)

of
(Name: Last, First, Middie initiai) (Sociai Security Number) (Rank)
Headquarters and
Headquarters Company,
United States Army Garrison U-S- Army FCDIJC Ml/er: VA 22211
(Unit/Command Name) (Branch of Service) (Station or Snip)
By
GENERAL COURT-MARTIAL
Convened by Commander

(Titie of Con vening Authority)

UNITED STATES ARMY MILITARY DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
(Unit/Command of Con vening Authority)

Tried at

Fort. Meade, MD on see below

(Piace or Piaces of Triai) (Date or Dates of Triai-9

Date or Dates of Trial:

23 February 2012, 15-16 March 2012, 24-26 April 2012, 6-8 June 2012, 25 June 2012,

16-19 July 2012, 28-30 August 2012, 2 October 2012, 12 October 2012, 17-18 October 2012,
7-8 November 2012, 27 November - 2 December 2012, 5-7 December 2012, 10-11 December 2012,
8-9 January 2013, 16 January 2013, 26 February - 1 March 2013, 8 March 2013,

10 April 2013, 7-8 May 2013, 21 May 2013, 3-5 June 2013, 10-12 June 2013, 17-18 June 2013,
25-28 June 2013, 1-2 July 2013, 8-10 July 2013, 15 July 2013, 18-19 July 2013,

25-26 July 2013, 28 July - 2 August 2013, 5-9 August 2013, 12-14 August 2013,

16 August 2013, and 19-21 August 2013.

1 insert ?verbatirri or ?surrimari'zeo? as appropriate. This form be used by the Army and Navy for verbatim records of triai

2 See inside back co ver for instructions as to preparation and arrangement.

DD FORM 490, MAY 2000 PREWOUS OBSOLETE Front Cover

09129

1

A.

Page 26 of 26.

2

Q.

All right, so that would be an example of what you would

3

expect to see if the C&A board needed to capture any more facts?

4

A.

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

6
7

Right -- on the continuation, yes.
All right.

I’m retrieving from the witness

Appellate Exhibit 441D [retrieving the document from the witness].
Q.

So at least from your memory of events there was an

8

exchange between PFC Manning and the board that apparently troubled

9

the board, correct?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And the statement really dealt with his intake statement on

12

whether or not that was truthful or not and whether or not he was

13

being truthful now when he’s saying he was not intending to harm

14

himself?

15

A.

That’s true, sir.

16

Q.

Now did you -- were you troubled by that?

17

A.

I mean -- honestly, sir, I was because -- the way I looked

18

at it is; you’re in front of the board, this is your chance to -- to

19

kind of explain things because, to be very honest, you know, I don’t

20

know what he was going through before that.

21

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

22

A.

So it just kind of troubled me because the statement always

23

planning, never acting is concerning, but then when they just ask you

5237

09130

1

and you don’t answer directly -- you know what, this statement I’m

2

making today that I don’t want to harm myself, that is a true

3

statement, and this is why it’s true.

4

review, blah, blah, blah, but this is why it’s true.

5
6

Q.

I know what you have to

And so -- because you were troubled by it, did you go to

PFC Manning and say I want to ask you about this thing?

7

A.

Not on the day of the board, sir.

8

Q.

No, I mean just at any time -- did you go to him and say I

9
10
11

Again, I ----

want to ask you about this statement?
A.

Yeah, I talked to him a little bit about it.

And I just

said ----

12

Q.

What did you ask him?

13

A.

I just kind of talked to him about the board.

I said, hey,

14

you need to appear on the board more and give them, you know, solid

15

answers.

16

really made me feel uncomfortable.

17

have ran back to, you know -- honest communication is -- is one of

18

the things I’m looking for.

19

Q.

I just -- I was honest with him, sir, and I told him it
And, again, I kind of, you know,

But I was asking you -- did you actually say I want to talk

20

to you about this statement that you made on your intake

21

questionnaire?

22
23

A.

Did you have that question with him?

I remember discussing it one of the times we sat down

because I was explaining to him what things were concerning me.

5238

So -

09131

1

- and I listed that as one -- and I said, you know, you have to just

2

be able to tell me, no, this is -- ma’am, I know what you read, but

3

here’s the real deal.

4

yes, I know at least on one occasion we talked about that.

5

again ----

I’m speaking to you truthfully right now.

6

Q.

And I want to go into that conversation then.

7

A.

Yeah.

8

Q.

So how did you bring that conversation up to him?

9
10

So,

And,

What did

you say to him, and what did PFC Manning say back to you?
A.

I mean, from what I recall, sir, it was one of those

11

conversations when I had, hey, look, you know -- I kind of reminded

12

him -- hey, when I got here I told you I’m big on communication even

13

if you’re reporting to a staff member, that’s fine.

14

you know, hey, all the privileges you had extended; I’m going along

15

with it still -- things like that.

16

this board, you know, I’m -- I told him -- I said, I don’t know

17

what’s going on, I said, but I noticed you’re not talking as much.

18

And I -- I just kind of told him -- I said, you know, communication

19

is important.

20

talking about changing the POI.

21

doing that, I said, but, you know, when you make comments like you

22

made to the one on the board it doesn’t make me feel comfortable.

23

And I told him -- questions like -- you can’t answer it like that.

I reminded him,

And I said, hey, look, as far as

And -- I can’t remember -- it was something about -And I said I don’t have problems

5239

I

09132

1

mean, I’m not telling you what to say, but -- I just was honest with

2

him.

3

listed the other factors as well, sir.

4

was -- ‘cause, again -- we sat down a few times with just me and him

5

and no guards, so I couldn’t tell you if it was -- you know, we went

6

into that detail on the first conversation or the second one, but I

7

did cover that, sir.

8
9

And I told him that it did not make me feel comfortable.

Q.

All right.

And I

So I couldn’t recall if it

So if I’m understanding your answer correctly,

the extent at which you covered this issue was just to tell him, hey,

10

the statements you made at the board; I was uncomfortable with that,

11

and you can answer that way?

12
13

A.

Well, it wasn’t just that.

Again, sir, I listed all the

other things that concerned me, and I just ----

14

Q.

Well, I know that.

I’m just talking about this -- what I’m

15

trying to get at is did you ask -- ever point blank say, you made

16

this statement; always planning, never acting.

17

about that.

18

want you to make me feel comfortable right now with why you said

19

that.

20

What did you mean by that?

I want to ask you

Why did you say that?

I

Did you do that with PFC Manning?
A.

I recall, sir, I just kind of said, hey, what -- what are

21

you -- I mean -- what’s that supposed to mean, you know.

22

to be honest with you, sir, I kind of recall -- I think he kind of --

23

not laugh in a disrespectful way or anything, it was just kind of --

5240

And he --

09133

1

it was almost like, oh, I’m having to explain this again maybe -- you

2

know what I mean.

3

like lecture him or, hey, you’re wrong for this -- never that -- it’s

4

just -- again, when I talked about it, it was kind of bringing those

5

things up -- letting him know I didn’t feel comfortable.

6

what do you want me -- how do you want me to interpret that, you

7

know.

8
9

Q.

So to be honest with you, I really tried not to

I mean,

And that’s what I want to get at ‘cause you were talking

that it was important for communication.

So it seems to be the best

10

way to break down the barriers of communication is to ask a point

11

blank question.

12

statement?

13
14
15

So did you point blank say tell me why you made this

A.

No.

But I asked him -- I said what does that statement

Q.

Did you point blank say to him, look, you made -- this

mean?

16

statement could have been false; you said that to the board.

17

you say that to the board?

18

A.

No.

Why’d

Tell me why you said that?

I mentioned the comment he made, and I said, you know,

19

how are the board members supposed to take it?

20

-- when you say that what do you want me to know?

21

it’s kind of hard to describe, but if, “You make that statement,”

22

that’s what I said, if you made that statement to the board members,

23

I said, obviously it doesn’t make me comfortable either, but what

5241

I mean, what are you
Like -- I mean,

09134

1

exactly did you mean?

2

one of the board members also said, wait a minute.

3

understand what we just asked you?

4

that up.

5

interpret it or what are we supposed to make out of it?

6
7
8
9

Did you understand them?

Because I believe
Did you

And he said, yes.

And I brought

I said -- I mean, what -- what am I -- how am I supposed to

Q.

And what did PFC Manning say back to you when you said

A.

Something along the lines of -- you know, he just kind of

that?

reiterated what he told them -- that his thing is, hey, I just want

10

to be off of POI -- well, okay, the statement could have false -- but

11

honestly, sir, he never said, well, ma’am, I said this because I was

12

just being sarcastic or ----

13

Q.

And I would imagine that you would want to know that.

So

14

that’s why I’m trying to get at -- did you then -- when you brought

15

this up apparently with him, and he said I just want to be off of

16

POI, did you say, well, that’s not responsive to my question.

17

question is why did you say this to the board?

18

A.

My

I mean -- when he said that I said -- I think I might have

19

said something along the lines of, hey, I understand that, but you

20

need to make me feel comfortable.

21

so that I know because I don’t know on any given day what could be

22

troubling -- maybe he got bad news from home.

23

my thing to him was, hey, look when you -- you know, when you make

5242

You need to explain things to me

I don’t know that.

So

09135

1

these comments I have to know what -- what exactly you mean or how

2

you meant it or whatever the case is.

3

comments like that it’s -- you know, if they continue it’s not going

4

to make me feel any better.

5
6
7

Q.

And I understand that.

But to be removed from POI --

So then when you say that to him,

you know, what does PFC Manning say back to you then?
A.

He kind of just -- I think he kind of just -- well, okay,

8

ma’am, kind of thing.

Because, again, you know, I didn’t want to

9

lecture him or make him feel like he had -- he was forced to stand

10

there and talk to him.

So I would -- made that comment -- he would

11

just say, okay, ma’am.

And that was it pretty much.

12

Q.

So you -- when he said “Okay, ma’am” you didn’t say, well,

13

no, I’m not okay.

14

this statement.

15

A.

You’re going -- you need to tell me why you made
I want to understand.

You didn’t do that?

No, sir, ‘cause, again, I did it once before and I just

16

didn’t want to badger him or continually, you know, hound him.

17

mean, I just told him, hey, look, I need for us to communicate.

18

trust me -- just like you trust me to make sure you’re safeguarded or

19

go to -- I need to be able to trust you when we talk or when we build

20

rapport and have honest open communication so that I can make

21

adjustments.

22

Q.

23

I
You

If you would turn to Page 9 of Enclosure 26, I believe ----

or 9 of 26 of Enclosure 32.

That’s the second time ----

5243

09136

1

A.

[Looking the document] 9 of -- can you say that again ----

2

Q.

Sure it’s ----

3

A.

---- ‘cause this is saying 9 of 26.

4

Q.

---- yeah, 9 of 26 to Enclosure 32, which is -- this is the

5

enclosure ----

6

A.

Okay, gotcha [looking at the document].

7

Q.

This is the second time that PFC Manning appeared before

8

the board, correct?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] Now I see this page -- it was

10

copied, but somebody wrote in a 4, so -- I mean, it’ll be hard for me

11

to tell ‘cause it couldn’t see if it was 9 or whatever, but I believe

12

----

13

Q.

If you look to the bottom of it?

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Oh, yep, you’re right.

15
16

That

would be the second one.
Q.

All right, so when he appeared in front of the board this

17

time, PFC Manning asked to be taken off of MAX and POI as well,

18

correct?

19
20

A.

[Looking at the document] I would guess that he did.

That’s why he would appear, sir.

21

Q.

And this was under your command at this point, correct?

22

A.

That’s right, sir.

23

Q.

And the board chose to retain him on MAX and POI?

5244

09137

1

A.

Well, they recommended that to me, yes.

2

Q.

And for this appearance were you informed that PFC Manning

3

showed up with documentation about how he had been over the past six

4

months?

5

A.

He showed up with documentation?

6

Q.

Documentation that he received from his defense counsel

I don’t recall that, sir.

7

documenting his observation and evaluation reports by Gunny Sergeant

8

Blenis.

9

A.

10

recall.

11

and we’re not reviewing him, we’re reviewing other people.

12

so to be honest, sir, I don’t recall.

13

Q.

Did anyone tell you about that?
[Looking through the documents] Honestly, sir, I don’t
But, again, when you have so many of these boards, you know,
I mean --

And in this board did anyone ever inform you that he got up

14

and he went through every one of his observation and evaluation

15

reports saying that he was polite, respectful, following the rules,

16

courteous, and basically said to the board I don’t understand why I’m

17

on POI and MAX?

18

A.

I remember them saying that, sir, but to be honest, I don’t

19

recall them bringing document -- him bringing documents in there.

20

But I know, you know, he did -- obviously he don’t agree with being

21

on POI -- and he was correct.

22

disciplinary reports or anything like that.

23

talked to them and said, you know, he’s not a troublemaker or

I mean, he wasn’t -- he didn’t receive

5245

So I am aware that he

09138

1

anything; why is he on POI?

2

saying, well, he brought all these documents ‘cause, again, all these

3

documents would be in his book anyways.

4
5

Q.

All right.

But, again, I just don’t remember them

And so after this he appears before the board a

third time, correct?

6

A.

I’m pretty sure he did, sir.

7

Q.

If you’d turn to Page 12 of 26.

8

[The witness did as directed.]

9
10

Q.

This is when PFC Manning appeared before the board on 25

February 2011.

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

12

Q.

Do you see where he -- where it shows that he came to the

13

board?

14
15
16
17

A.

Yeah, it says that he chose to -- yes, sir, he initialed

Q.

And PFC Manning again came to the board and asked I want to

that.

get off of POI and MAX?

18

A.

Say that again, sir?

19

Q.

PFC Manning came to the board again and said I want to get

20

off of POI and MAX custody?

21

A.

Okay, sir.

22

Q.

Is that correct?

23

A.

I mean -- I would imagine.

5246

Let me a quick second to read

09139

1
2
3
4

the notes here.
Q.

Sure.

It’s been a long time.
Go ahead.

[The witness read through the document.]
A.

Okay, according to the notes it said he requested to appear

5

but had no new issues to bring to the board’s attention that were not

6

already voiced in his previous appearances before the board.

7

Q.

Exactly.

So those -- those remarks show that he went to

8

the board but apparently he had nothing new to offer the board that

9

they hadn’t already heard the previous time he came correct?

10

A.

That’s right, sir.

But one other thing as well is a

11

prisoner could go in front of that board and say I don’t want to be

12

on interior work detail.

13

this is just a general example -- he might just say, well, I just

14

don’t want to be on it.

15

don’t want to be on interior work detail because somebody -- this

16

other detainee that’s on that work detail -- we’re testifying against

17

each other and I’m worried or something like that, then -- you see

18

what I’m saying?

19

to be MAX/POI and you say -- you know, this is why I think you should

20

take me off.

21

and training reports, him being good really didn’t -- like I said no

22

disciplinary reports or anything, but the main issue is, again, just

23

coming out directly and saying I do not want to harm myself.

Okay, well ask them why?

That’s not good enough.

You know, and

Now if you say I

So if you give them -- you say, hey, I don’t want

Okay, yes, I’m a good detainee, but, again, the work

5247

This is

09140

1
2

why -- I know what you guys looked at.
Q.

Here’s what has changed.

Now -- and I want to follow-up on that. So if PFC Manning

3

appears before the board and -- on 4 February, and lays out all the

4

facts that he says why I should not be on.

5

now for the 25 February and he lays out the facts again -- or he

6

tries to and they say to him, you’re not telling us anything we

7

haven’t already heard.

And then he comes again

8

A.

Okay.

9

Q.

Could you -- could you see then how PFC Manning might think

10
11
12

But, again, sir ----

that the board doesn’t want to hear anything from him?
A.

I could see that, but you’ve got to remember, sir, again,

when you talk about I’m a good detainee; check --

13

Q.

Right.

14

A.

-- you know, I haven’t had any issues, even outside the

15

facility; check.

16

average; good.

17

thing is where are you at in terms of wanting to harm yourself.

18

Because remember, sir, confinement in itself, to be very honest, is

19

obviously they’re deprived of things.

20

they want -- that kind of thing.

21

interactions with the board, yes, he would come in and say I got work

22

and training reports, blah, blah, blah, but, again, the main issue

23

was that they really didn’t a -- I don’t want to kill myself.

My work and training reports are average or above
However, those are easy things to look at.

The tough

They can’t get up and go where

So, again, sir, from my

5248

This

09141

1

is why.

2

Q.

Okay.

And the people that were on this board -- again,

3

this board here is Fuller, but for the most part it was always Gunny

4

Sergeant Blenis as the senior board member, right?

5

A.

As a programs chief, yes.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

And I’m showing you now in Enclosure 22 of

7

Appellate Exhibit 259, can you look at that and tell me what that is

8

[handing the document to the witness].

9

[The witness looked through the document.]

10

Q.

Are those the weekly reports that were sent up?

11

A.

Those are the weekly progress reports, sir, that was sent

12
13

up, yes.
Q.

And I’m sure, because you reviewed them, you would agree

14

with me that week, after week, after week, PFC Manning was telling

15

Gunny Sergeant Blenis I’m not suicidal, I don’t want to harm myself.

16

He’s telling his counselor that.

17

A.

Sir, I’m not in there when they talk.

And his counselor --

18

you know, I can’t say that every time they sat down that they

19

discussed that.

20

things like he’ll discuss maybe basketball or ----

21

Q.

I mean, when I looked at the notes I would see

Take a look at the counselor’s notes; every one of them

22

documents the fact that PFC Manning told him he was not suicidal and

23

hadn’t been suicidal since he arrived at Quantico?

5249

09142

1
2
3

A.
sir.

Well, I would obviously have to go through all of these,

I mean I can’t ---Q.

Well, we’ll take one random one -- you open up randomly and

4

we’ll just take one.

5

[The witness looked through the documents.]

6

Q.

You have to turn to the second page.

7

A.

Okay, sir, I’ll get there.

8

I’ll get there.

[The witness looked through the document.]

9

Q.

Did you find it there in that counselor’s note?

10

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay, I saw one.

11

Q.

Okay, you take as much time as you want.

12

[Pause while the witness looked through the document.]

13

A.

Okay, for the few that I reviewed, yes.

14

Q.

Yeah, so week after week he’s telling the one person, in

15

addition to yourself that you said he should be talking to, he’s not

16

suicidal and he doesn’t want to harm himself, correct?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

So -- I know now you said he was good behavior; check, no

19

adverse spot evaluations; check, wouldn’t you then go to -- and is he

20

telling us he’s not suicidal and doesn’t want to harm himself; check?

21

A.

Yes he’s saying that, sir, but, again, when he’s not

22

discussing, hey, I made a comment that would cause you all concern,

23

not once, but twice.

And I mean he’s not again addressing that,

5250

09143

1

sure, you ask the prisoner are you suicidal or homicidal at this

2

time; no.

3

make those comments?

4

commit suicide; they’re not going to tell us that.

5

But, again, he’s not addressing, you know, why did you

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

And, again, sir, somebody who really wants to

And I’m going to just show the witness the

6

transcript from Appellate Exhibit 435 Hotel [handing the document to

7

the witness].

8

Q.

9

So, Chief, I know you’ve got a copy in front of you -- this

is Appellate Exhibit 435 Hotel.

This is a transcript of PFC Manning

10

on 18 January in a conversation with his counselor.

And he talks

11

about -- and you can see it in front of him where he’s saying,

12

[reading from the document] I mean, ‘cause I’m getting -- every day

13

that passes by I’m getting increasingly frustrated.

14

lie ‘cause I’m trying to do everything that I can not to be

15

concerned, therefore, I appear as though I am causing more concern --

16

or I -- or it seems that I’m causing more concern and everyone’s

17

looking for something to cause concern.

18

me; trying to work out the most politically way of -- and then Gunny

19

Sergeant Blenis says, let’s go back to today.

20

anxiety attack -- and he tries to compare that with what happened in

21

Kuwait.

22

the same.

23

wasn’t lucid.

I’m not going to

So that’s what’s frustrating

And he talks about the

And PFC Manning tells him at that point that the two are not
He says that when he was in Kuwait he was actually -- he
He wasn’t aware what was going on.

5251

But here at

09144

1

Quantico he is lucid.

He is aware of what’s going on.

Isn’t that

2

what you were looking for, for him to say, hey, I know what you guys

3

saw back there, but that’s not what -- that’s not a worry because

4

back then I wasn’t lucid, but here and now I am lucid?

5

A.

Okay, sir ----

6

Q.

Wouldn’t that be a check for you?

7

A.

And just give me a minute, sir --

8

Q.

No, no, you take as much time as you want.

9

A.

-- ‘cause, again, I don’t know where this came from and --

10
11
12

if this is transcribed word-for-word -- but ---ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

Ma’am, this could be helpful if the defense

asks if she’s ever seen this before.

13

WIT: Yes, ‘cause this is news to me.

14

need to review this Word document that’s typed.

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

That’s why I’m saying I

Ma’am, I don’t think -- and I have no

16

problem taking the time to look at it.

17

has seen it before.

18

his counselor that what happened in Kuwait was because he wasn’t

19

lucid and now he is lucid, that directly goes to what Chief Barnes

20

was saying.

21
22
23

MJ:

It’s not important that she

The important fact is if PFC Manning’s telling

Does the Government agree that that’s a verbatim transcript

as close as you can from what happened in the video?
ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

Yes, ma’am, but the point is that the

5252

09145

1

witness was not present then and -- and there wasn’t even a proper

2

foundation whether she even watched the video or seen the video.

3
4

MJ:

No, I’ll let it go forward.

Go ahead.

[Examination of the witness continued.]

5

Q.

So really what I’m asking you, and you can take the time

6

you need to look at that to answer that question, but if PFC Manning

7

conveyed to his counselor that the stuff that you’re concerned about

8

in Kuwait was due to me not being lucid then, and now I am lucid,

9

wouldn’t that be then the explanation that you’re looking for in

10

order to feel comfortable?

11

A.

Well, I mean, that just a tiny aspect, sir.

But, again,

12

other things like the behavior in the cells; that’s not addressed.

13

The issue of how he’s coping with the gender issues; that was not

14

discussed with me either.

15

sir -- okay, he said in Kuwait I wasn’t lucid; it was like a dream.

16

And then Gunny Blenis said at that time, well, they both ultimately

17

ended up with you having an anxiety -- anxiety attack.

18

let me just finish going through it, sir --

I mean, so -- as I’m looking through this,

But, again,

19

Q.

Sure.

20

A.

-- ‘cause, again, this is the first time I’m looking at

Q.

And when you’re thinking -- when you’re looking through

21
22
23

this.

that, I’ve got issues with the behavior in the jail and gender

5253

09146

1

identity is two other things the he hadn’t covered with you yet.

2

I’m going to ask you if there’s anything else that you felt he didn’t

3

cover with you.

4

A.

5

problem, sir.

6

[The witness read through the document.]

And

Okay, well let me go through this first -- and I have no

7

MJ:

Mr. Coombs?

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9

A.

Yes, ma’am.

It’s a little hard to follow along because in some of the

10

responses I’m seeing is tied to yes, Master Sergeant, but I’m not

11

seeing anything from Master Sergeant Papakie.

12

in -- there on the 18th --

As you know I was not

13

Q.

Sure.

14

A.

-- but the answer to your question -- and you are correct.

15

If he said, okay, I wasn’t -- I wasn’t lucid in Kuwait, I’m lucid

16

here. But, again, this was one time he was asked about, well, you had

17

a similar incident like this in Kuwait and it came up then.

18

again, from -- from what I can see, you know, that’s -- yeah, that’s

19

one thing -- okay, I was lucid then -- I wasn’t lucid then, I’m lucid

20

now.

21

with this because it’s a lot of um, um, or things cut off.

But,

But -- and, again, sir, it was kind of hard to follow along

22

Q.

Right.

23

A.

So.

I know you can’t help the video tape -- I don’t know

5254

09147

1

the quality, but -- so to answer your question, if he said -- if that

2

comment -- yes, that could be one thing that could be considered as

3

well.

4

Q.

And then you had indicated that in addition to the stuff in

5

Kuwait or his intake, that there were behaviors that you were

6

concerned about and the gender identity disorder wasn’t addressed.

7

A.

Say that again, sir.

8

Q.

I believe you said that there are two other things you were

9
10

concerned about in addition to what you saw in Kuwait.

That was his

behaviors over a period of time --

11

A.

Right.

12

Q.

-- and that the gender identity disorder was not discussed.

13

A.

No, sir, that -- you know, as far as if that’s the fact of

14

him in confinement or maybe, you know, any struggles he may be

15

facing, that could affect things.

16

Q.

Well, I just wanted.

I don’t know.

And that’s why I said, you know, tell

17

me the other things that you were concerned about.

18

while he was there -- the behavior issues.

You said issues

19

A.

Yeah, decreased communication; I think we covered that.

20

Q.

Okay, and we’ll cover that in more detail.

21

to make sure I have all your factors.

22

-

23

A.

But I just want

So decreased communication ---

Now we’re talking as far as maintaining the POI, right, and

5255

09148

1

not the MAX -- the custody because those are two different?

2

you’re talking about maintaining the status or the custody?

3

Q.

Neither.

So

What I was talking about was you -- you were

4

saying for communication.

5

got it ----

One of the things he could have done --

6

A.

Right.

7

Q.

---- check, he’s got behavior; check, he’s not a problem.

8

And then this instance now; check -- at least one time he’s explained

9

his other behavior.

10

And you said that there were other things that

were still not explained.

And so I just wanted ----

11

A.

Right -- beyond that ----

12

Q.

---- to ----

13

A.

---- right -- so, again, you know, the behavior -- why was

14

there a shift for example -- and I’m not just talking about the

15

things with his glasses frame and the acting out things, but the very

16

clear difference in behavior when he would be in with the

17

psychiatrist and stuff like that, and when he would be with us.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

You know, again, we mentioned the -- the -- the not really

20

going into detail with what did you mean on the C&A board, the intake

21

forms; that kind of thing.

22

Q.

Anything else?

23

A.

Aside from the decreased communication with me, not that I

5256

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1

can think of right now, sir.

2

Q.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

Okay.

might be good at this point to take a lunch break.

5

MJ:

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7
8
9

Ma’am, before I continue with my cross, it

Okay.

well, 1400.
MJ:

And what would you like?
If we could come back at, I guess, 13 --

Is that possible?

Well, government, any objection to that or do you want to

go forward?

10

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

11

MJ:

12

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I mean we’d prefer to go shorter, ma’am.

Yeah.

14

defense.

15

MJ:

16

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

17

MJ:

Depending on how long it’s going to take.
Anything over an hour would be good with the

So, even if it’s an hour and 15 minutes that would be fine.
All right, why don’t we do it at 1345.
Yes, ma’am.

Court is in recess until 1345 or 1:45.

Same rules apply.

18

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1230, 7 December 2012.]

19

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1353, 7 December

20

2012.]

21

MJ:

This Article 38(a) session is called to order.

Let the

22

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

23

again present in court.

The witness is on the witness stand.

5257

Mr.

09150

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

Coombs?
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

And, Chief Barnes, I remind you you’re still

under oath.
WIT: Yes, sir.
[Examination of the witness continued.]
Q.

Now, Chief, you said over a period of time after March you

started to notice a difference in PFC Manning’s behavior?
A.

I said over time.

I don’t recall the month.

But I did say

over time, yes.
Q.

Well he went from being fairly cheery to being kind of

quiet and withdrawn, is that correct?

12

A.

Oh, yes, sir.

13

Q.

And even though he was quiet and withdrawn, he wasn’t

14

disrespectful?

15

A.

Nah.

I just had to counsel him one time and that was it.

16

Q.

And you were particularly concerned that PFC Manning

17

appeared to have a different demeanor with the doctors than he did

18

with you and the staff?

19

A.

That’s right, sir.

20

Q.

The reason you think this is because sometimes the staff

21

would walk by where PFC Manning was speaking with the doctors and you

22

can see them speaking.

23

talking with the doctors quite a bit?

And you could see that he was -- seemed to be

5258

09151

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

He looked like he appeared to be happy?

3

A.

From what I saw, sir, yeah.

4

Q.

And from what you saw it looked like he was very talkative

5

with the doctors?

6

A.

That’s right, sir.

7

Q.

You noticed that he was smiling at times?

8

A.

A couple of times I noticed that.

9

walking through making rounds.

But, again, I was just

As a habit -- just looking into

10

special quarters as I’m on my way to check my exterior hatch -- that

11

kind of thing, so from glances that I saw, yes, sir.

12
13

Q.

Okay, and sometimes he would spend an hour to upwards to

two hours with the doctors, is that correct?

14

A.

That’s right, sir.

15

Q.

And then when he would be back to his cell he wasn’t happy?

16

A.

Well, yes, we would notice -- they would notice a chance in

17

his demeanor, sir, yes.

So I wouldn’t necessarily say he wasn’t

18

happy, but, again, what they saw as far as, I guess, the talking back

19

and forth, eye contact; yeah, that wasn’t the case, sir.

20

Q.

Yeah, he wasn’t talkative when he went back to his cell?

21

A.

No, sir, not that I was told.

22

Q.

And you didn’t notice or nor were you told that he was

23

smiling a lot when he was back in his cell?

5259

09152

1

A.

No, sir.

2

Q.

And I think what you said was that generally when asked

3

questions he would give short, one word answers when he was back in

4

his cell?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And that raised some eyebrows not only with you but also

7

with your staff?

8
9
10

A.

Yes, sir, they noticed a decrease in communication, yes,

Q.

And you thought that there was a very clear difference in

sir.

11

how PFC Manning was interacting with you and how he was interacting

12

with the doctors?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

The difference that you saw was a factor that you

15

considered when deciding if he needed to be in MAX and POI, is that

16

correct?

17

A.

Again, sir, the decreased communication, yes, that -- as

18

far as the POI status, yes.

19

that’s slightly different; the factors are a little bit different

20

there.

21
22
23

Q.

But as far as the maximum custody thing,

So the decrease in communication only went towards the POI

determination?
A.

Well, for the most part, sir, yes.

5260

09153

1

Q.

Okay.

And you said that when you first got there in late

2

January, and for the first month into February, his interaction with

3

you was much more open at that time?

4

A.

In the first few weeks, sir, yes.

5

Q.

And he seemed to be in a pleasant mood at that point?

6

A.

Yes, sir, when I would talk to him.

7

Q.

And it was only at some point later after, I guess, the

8

first few weeks or so that he became more withdrawn?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

Did you consider that PFC Manning might have become more

11

withdrawn because he was upset about having his underwear taken away

12

from him at the first -- basically the 2d and 3d of March?

13

A.

I’m sure he would be, sir.

14

Q.

Would you consider that as a possibility of why he might

15
16

have become more withdrawn?
A.

Well some of that being it took place before the incident

17

with his underwear, to be very honest, sir, so -- as far as kind of

18

like decreased communications.

19

something that upset him.

20

opportunity to discuss that with me.

21

Q.

You know, that could have been

But, again, I afforded him every

Did you consider that, at least as we go into March and

22

then in April when you document it even more how he’s withdrawn, that

23

PFC Manning believed words that he said might be used against him?

5261

09154

1

A.

Yes, sir, ‘cause there’s an incident where we talked --

2

going back to the voluntary statement, that kind of thing, and I just

3

kind of told him I understand, but communi -- communication with the

4

staff is sort of vital.

5

never do that, but I would just let him know it helps you out, you

6

know, if you communicate more.

7

Q.

I mean I can’t force him to talk, and I’ll

You indicated that you had some detailed conversations with

8

him that were more detailed than the walking by the cell and asking

9

how you’re doing --

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

-- is that correct?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And in some of these conversations you would stress to PFC

14

Manning the importance of being open and honest with communicating

15

with you and also with the staff?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And you told him that you had no issues -- and I believe

18

you even testified on direct -- you had no issues taking him off of

19

POI?

20

A.

That’s correct, sir.

21

Q.

He just had to do the work that you believed he needed to

22
23

do to give you the reasons to do that?
A.

That’s right, sir.

5262

09155

1
2

Q.

And you told him that it was really up to him whether or

not he would remain in MAX and POI?

3

A.

I said -- I don’t recall if I said that exactly, but I did

4

say, hey, you can effect change.

5

to do.

6

And I’m telling you what you need

But I need to see that from you.

Q.

And I think an example that you gave and the note that we

7

wrote down was just basically something along the lines of him saying

8

to you, I respectfully request to be removed from POI; I’m not

9

suicidal.

I understand the way you might have taken certain things

10

that I might have done or said in the past, and that might have made

11

you uncomfortable.

12

the type of mood I’m in.

13

removing me from MAX and POI?

But I’m telling you now as I sit here that’s not
And, you know, would you please consider

14

A.

Honestly, sir, yeah.

15

Q.

So if -- if he said something along those words, you know,

16

essentially, that would have given you at least a -- a better feel

17

and perhaps a desire to take him off MAX and POI once you heard that?

18

A.

In addition to -- to behavioral changes ‘cause, again, it’s

19

not just so much him saying, well, I don’t want to kill myself, but,

20

again, based on the behavior and the things he was doing in his cell,

21

yes.

22

statement along those lines, sir, yes.

23

Had I seen that that stopped and in addition to making a

Q.

And we covered the statement that he made to Gunny Sergeant

5263

09156

1

Blenis on the 18th of January.

And I think you agreed that that was

2

an example of a kind of -- the statement you might be looking for --

3

that was one example of it, correct?

4

A.

Could you repeat that, sir?

5

Q.

Right.

The statement PFC Manning made to Gunny Sergeant

6

Blenis on 18 January where he said, hey, what happened in Kuwait, you

7

know, is totally different from here.

8

wasn’t lucid, here I’m lucid.

9

statement that you were looking for -- some assurances from him?

10
11

A.

What happened in Kuwait; I

That was an example of the type of

One of the -- along those lines -- something like that,

sir, yeah.

12

Q.

Okay.

And you thought that PFC Manning needed to show you

13

that you would be making the right decision if you removed him from

14

MAX and POI?

15

A.

Can you repeat that question, sir?

16

Q.

Sure.

When you were talking to PFC Manning, you’re

17

basically telling him that he needed to show you that you’d be making

18

a right decision if you ultimately said I’m taking you off MAX and

19

POI; and he’d show you that through his conduct and what he would

20

say?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And at a certain point, I guess in the March and April

23

timeframe, the C&A board notes and your weekly progress reports start

5264

09157

1

to document the fact that PFC Manning is not communicating with you,

2

is that correct?

3
4

A.

you’re talking about.

5

Q.

6

[Pause]

7
8
9
10

I’d have to take a look at those, sir, to see which ones

Sure.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m handing you Enclosure 22 of Appellate

Exhibit 259; these are your weekly ---WIT: Okay.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:
Yes.

---- progress reports -- and let me make

11

sure of that.

So if you’d glance that that for a moment

12

[handing the document to the witness].

13

WIT: Which dates did you want me to look at, sir?

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

If you start going into March and April,

15

Chief.

16

[The witness did as directed and reviewed the documents.]

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m also going to show you Enclosure 32 of

18

Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing the documents to the witness].

19

are the ----

20

WIT: Okay, sir, but can I get through this first though?

21

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

22

WIT: Okay.

23

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Sure.

These

These are the C&A board reports.

So these will also document towards the

5265

09158

1

bottom then concerns that you had about him ----

2

WIT: Okay.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

---- not speaking to you.

So you might be

able to marry them up with the weekly reports.

5

WIT: Okay, sir.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

So really here -- this might be the quickest

7

way you can find it; March 4th, which is Page 13 of 26 for Enclosure

8

32, is the first time you start to say his behavior’s erratic.

9

then as we go into the subsequent ones, you start to document the

10

decreased ----

11

MJ:

12
13
14

Are you talking about the weekly reports -- is that what

you’re looking at?
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Two things, ma’am, the C&A board, which is

Enclosure 32, and then the weekly reports as well.

15

WIT: Okay.

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

17

documents to the witness].

18

[The witness reviewed the documents.]

19

But

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

And I’ll just set this here [handing the

And, Chief, just so we know, I’m not asking

20

you to find like a particular example; just that -- from your memory

21

-- and you might be able to say this from your memory without looking

22

at this, that you start documenting in the March and certainly in the

23

April timeframe the decrease in communication by PFC Manning with you

5266

09159

1

and the staff.

2

WIT: Okay.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

So if you need to look at that to refresh

4

your memory, that’s fine.

5

as well.

6

[Pause while the witness reviewed the documents.]

7
8
9

Or if you can testify to that, that’s fine

WIT: Yes, I made some annotations there, sir.
[Examination of the witness continued.]
Q.

Okay, do you see how your -- both your weekly reports and

10

then -- even the annotations on the C&A board start to document more

11

in the March and April timeframe the fact that PFC Manning’s no

12

longer really communicating well with you and the staff?

13

A.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

Right.
No I’m handing you what’s been marked

Appellate Exhibit 441E [handing the document to the witness].

16

WIT: [Looking through the documents] Okay.

17

Q.

Now this is an email from you where you communicate to

18

Colonel Oltman some of these same concerns.

19

April ----

This email’s dated 12

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

---- and you told Colonel Oltman “I told him that when he

22

does not capitalize on opportunities such as using the DD Form 510

23

process, appearing in front of the C&A board; he’s not helping his

5267

09160

1

case.”

Do you see that?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And basically in this one you’re talking about the fact

4

that PFC Manning is not communicating well with you and the staff?

5

A.

May I read that whole paragraph for a second, please?

6

Q.

Oh, sure.

7

[The witness reviewed the document.]

8

A.

9

but -- okay.

10

Q.

Oh, yeah, I mentioned appearing in front of the C&A board,

And basically the overall tenet of this email is the ball’s

11

kind of in PFC Manning’s court; if he wants to do the work, you’re

12

willing to meet him halfway and perhaps take him off of MAX and POI?

13

A.

That’s correct, sir.

14

Q.

And you’re talking to him again about his lack of

15

communication with you and the staff?

16

A.

Say that again, sir?

17

Q.

You’re -- when you’re doing this, you’re telling PFC

18

Manning about your concern of his lack of communication with you and

19

the staff?

20

A.

Right -- and other things.

21

Q.

Right.

That’s right, sir.

Now you remember on particular conversation where

22

PFC Manning got a little disrespectful or a little testy with you, is

23

that correct?

5268

09161

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And he was testy because he was frustrated about his MAX

3

and POI status?

4

A.

That’s right, sir.

5

Q.

And you had to remind him he was speaking with a

6

commissioned officer and could, in fact, be written up for

7

disrespect?

8

A.

If it continued; I did, sir.

9

Q.

And you suggested that he might have to go back to his cell

10
11

to calm down in order for you to continue your conversation?
A.

Yeah.

I told him -- I said, you know, if you’re

12

frustrated; I understand that.

That’s a natural reaction and I’m

13

good with that, but the way you c -- the way you communicate your

14

thoughts is the key thing.

15

you can go back to your cell for a few minutes if you want or we can

16

continue to talk.

17

don’t tolerate disrespect.

18

usual.

19

just kind of cautioned him real quick and -- so he kind of

20

understood.

And I told him, I said, if you want --

I said, but from this point on now that you know I
I said, we’re carrying on business as

So there was never a kind of chastising him in that sense.

21

Q.

And he, in fact, apologized?

22

A.

Yes he did.

23

Q.

And then you continued your conversation?

5269

I

09162

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And during that conversation you went into detail that as a

3

detainee his entire record could actually show up in court?

4

A.

Yes, I said that.

5

Q.

And you told him that if there was negative stuff in his

6

record that that could, in fact, impact the sentence that he might

7

receive?

8
9
10
11
12

A.

If a progress report is requested, yes, I explained that,

Q.

And you asked him not to put you in that position to where

sir.

you might be putting something negative into your weekly reports?
A.

I did.

I just kind of said, hey, I don’t like prisoners

13

getting -- detainees getting written up.

14

put me in that position.

15

can’t pick and choose what I put in it.

16

the standard name ----

I said -- so please don’t

‘Cause, again, with the progress reports, I
It has to be -- you know,

17

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

18

A.

---- work assignment, custody, but behavior issues have to

19

be annotated as well.

20

me in that position to write something negative.

21

Q.

So I did say, you know, hey, please don’t put

And you told him that when you write up your progress

22

reports and it’s negative, he would only be hurting himself at that

23

point?

5270

09163

1

A.

I don’t recall if I said that exactly.

But I just know I

2

kind of stressed the point that, you know, if we’re asked for

3

progress reports it’s in your best interest if it looks good.

4

you know, it helps you out, or something along those lines.

So,

5

Q.

6

saying?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And can you see how what you were saying could be perceived

9
10

And PFC Manning indicated he understood what you were

basically as a -- a threat to him?
A.

No because -- to be very honest, sir, I’m -- I was talking

11

to him just like I’m talking to you now.

And I just kind of -- for

12

me it’s one of those things I like to let prisoners know -- or

13

detainees -- hey, here’s the rules in case you don’t know.

14

well anybody could take it as a threat, like, hey, you better behave

15

or else, but that’s certainly not how I communicated it.

16

was talking to him in the same tone like I’m talking to you ----

But he --

Again, I

17

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

18

A.

---- and, again, by me asking him, hey, please don’t put me

19

in that position, I wouldn’t think -- I would see that as, hey, I’m

20

trying to help you, because if this continues to happen then you’ll

21

get a disciplinary report, and you don’t want that.

22

what I said to him in conjunction with my demeanor, I don’t see how

23

he would have taken it as a threat.

5271

So I just think

But, again, we’re two different

09164

1

people -- and he could have -- but it wasn’t expressed to me if he

2

did take it that way.

3
4

Q.

And could you see if he did take it that way why he might

become less talkative with you and the staff?

5

A.

Possibly, sir.

6

Q.

All right.

Now aside from the differences you observed

7

between PFC Manning with the doctors and with the staff, another one

8

of the factors that you considered for MAX and POI was the general

9

behaviors that were being documented, is that correct?

10

A.

Well, for the POI part, sir, yes.

11

Q.

And what specifically from the standpoint of the general

12

behaviors were you documenting?

13

A.

I didn’t hear you, sir.

14

Q.

Right.

Could you say that again?

For the general behaviors that were being

15

documented that you considered, do you recall what those behaviors

16

were?

17

A.

At one time I was down there and he was sitting on his rack

18

either pretending to be fishing or doing something -- I mean, to be

19

honest with you, sir, I didn’t see that like every day that I went

20

down to special quarters.

21

notice it ‘cause, again, I would make more than one trip down there.

22

You know, I was told about the incident, you know, he talking to

23

himself in his cell, or acting things out; things like that.

But there were times that I happened to

5272

09165

1

Q.

2

[Pause]

3

Okay.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate

4

Exhibit 441E and handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441F

5

[retrieving and handing the exhibits as indicated].

6

WIT: Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Now in this email you describe what you just testified to;

8

of seeing PFC Manning either talking briefly to himself or talking to

9

himself when you were walking by, correct?

10

A. [Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

11

now.

12

[Pause]

13

WIT: Okay.

14

Q.

15

I’m reading through it

And you -- you believe that when you were walking by PFC

Manning was actually talking to himself, right?

16

A.

That’s -- that’s what I noticed, sir.

17

Q.

And I think what you noticed -- or what you believed he was

18

either mumbling or saying things with no one else around?

19

A.

That’s correct, sir.

20

Q.

And you considered that unusual?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And did you talk to PFC Manning about that?

23

Did you stop

and talk to him to say, why are you talking to yourself?

5273

09166

1

A.

No, sir, because when I brought some of these concerns up

2

to Colonel Malone, you know, he said that -- to be honest, he said

3

that’s no real cause for alarm, and to, you know -- he wouldn’t -- he

4

said, I wouldn’t engage him on that.

5

Q.

Yeah ----

6

A.

‘Cause that’s -- again, I respect the -- their expertise.

7

And, also, me myself I would just ask questions even outside of, you

8

know, what they put down.

9

I just kind of -- but, you know, again, whenever I got in front of

So I do remember him saying that.

And so

10

his cell, very respectful -- he’d stand up -- good morning, ma’am, or

11

whatever.

12

Q.

So -- and it just stopped.
Okay, so when you addressed these behaviors with Colonel

13

Malone, you also addressed the fishing rod behavior with Colonel

14

Malone as well, correct?

15
16
17

A.

I just gave him example of things we saw -- we saw, sir,

Q.

Yeah, the email captures where you talked to Colonel Malone

yeah.

18

about PFC Manning acting as though he’s casting a rod and fishing.

19

And even with that, Colonel Malone said that that was not something

20

that you needed to be alarmed with as far as a mental health issue,

21

correct?

22

A.

Right.

23

Q.

Colonel Malone told you that PFC Manning was fine from a

5274

09167

1

psychiatric prospective and there was really nothing to treat him

2

for?

3

A.

That’s correct, sir.

4

Q.

Now you also gave another instance of PFC Manning using his

5

glasses basically as tweezers?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And do you know with regards to that if you addressed that

8
9

behavior with Colonel Malone?
A.

I mean I could have.

To be honest with you, sir, again,

10

when they first come into the facility I kind of talk about, hey,

11

this is what the staff’s reporting, or whatever the case is, and go

12

over that.

13
14
15
16

Q.

So it’s very possible that I could have discussed that.
And was that behavior something that caused you to think

that he was trying to harm himself?
A.

Not that in particular, sir.

I mean, he wasn’t like trying

to break it off and jab it into his neck.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

I mean -- and the guards just happened to see him.

19

says, hey, you know, what are you doing?

20

him, “Hey, just wear your glasses, don’t use it for that.”

21

Q.

And he

And the guard just told

Okay, so what PFC Manning was doing with his glasses was

22

not something that was causing the staff alarm as far as him trying

23

to take his own life or harm himself?

5275

09168

1

A.

Not at that time, sir, no.

2

Q.

Now you talked about PFC Manning not being a disciplinary

3

problem.

There were a couple of times where he had to be counseled

4

though for minor issues, correct?

5

A.

That’s correct, sir.

6

Q.

But overall would you say as you’re on the stand now that

7
8
9
10
11
12

PFC Manning was overall a good detainee?
A.

Overall, sir, yes.

I mean, I wouldn’t go as far as to say

perfect or model ‘cause there’s been prisoners in there who’s never
been counseled before.
Q.

Okay.

But generally, yes, he’s a good detainee.

And let’s talk about some of the instances where you

had to counsel him though, okay?

13

A.

[No response.]

14

Q.

If you go to Page 99, I believe, of 109 within your weekly

15

reports.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

I think it’s 99.

18

What page, sir?

[looking through the documents that the witness has].

19

A.

Okay.

20

Q.

It is -- okay.

21

Let me see if this is the right one

Let me just turn it for you [turning the

page in the documents for the witness].

22

A.

Okay.

23

Q.

All right.

Here.

So this, again, your weekly progress reports on

5276

09169

1

PFC Manning?

2

A.

[Looking at the document] Right.

3

Q.

And on this report you document where PFC Manning initiated

4

movement by himself when restraints were being put on, correct?

5

A.

Okay, well I myself didn’t document that.

6

- this is typed up and brought to me for my review.

7

are you reading, sir?

This is, again What paragraph

8

Q.

It should be where I’ve -- I’ve marked it for you.

9

A.

[No response.]

10

Q.

And just so -- I’ll wait till you’re done then -- let me

11

know.

12

[Pause while the witness looked through the document.]

13
14

A.

You said where it’s marked.

same page?

So which one -- is this on the

Could you point out ----

15

Q.

Sure.

Do you ----

16

A.

---- was that what you’re referring to?

17

Q.

---- do you see anywhere where he is counseled for moving?

18

A.

[Looking through the document] No visitation ----

19

Q.

[Looking at the document with the witness] Not to move.

20

A.

[Reading from the document] He just said, okay, I counseled

21

-- SM was suspected of.

Okay, this is Gunnery Sergeant Blenis and

22

not me, sir.

23

was just saying that although he’s used to the routine of restraints

So that -- I was just a little confused there.

5277

But he

09170

1

being applied, he’s to follow the direction of the staff member and

2

not to move forward in the process until given instructions.

3
4

Q.

Okay, and -- so I understand, again, these weekly progress

reports; you ultimately sign off on them, right?

5

A.

That’s correct, sir.

6

Q.

And I guess when you do that you’re verifying the

7

information within it is correct to the best of your knowledge?

8
9

A.

That’s correct, sir.

I mean ‘cause most of the time if an

incident report is filled out, it’ll come to my desk, I’ll review it,

10

sign it, so 9 out of 10 times when I get this it’ll have that in it.

11

So -- I mean it captures the same information, sir.

12

Q.

Okay.

And so Gunny Sergeant Blenis in his counseling notes

13

documented the fact that PFC Manning needed to be counseled because

14

he moved or initiated movement when restraints were being placed upon

15

him?

16
17

A.

Yes.

When he says “counseled,” sir -- let me just explain

it briefly ----

18

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

19

A.

---- that -- that could be something as simple as, hey, you

20

know -- something simple as, hey, tuck in your shirt or something

21

like that.

So, you know, it’s not necessarily punitive or bad.

22

Q.

Right.

23

A.

But, again, something like that, we just -- that’s just the

5278

09171

1

term we use when we say, hey, we counseled them on or -- that means

2

we explained to them, hey, don’t do this or don’t do that.

3

Q.

Right.

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

---- or it could actually be written, correct?

6

A.

That’s correct, sir.

7

Q.

And it could wind up on a hard card?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

All right, in this instance he was told not to do that, and

10
11

And the counseling could be verbal ----

Normally they annotate that on the hard card.

do you know if PFC Manning ever violated that after this time period?
A.

I’d have to look at his hard cards, sir.

I mean, to be

12

very honest, this is going back well over a year and I can’t say.

13

But, I mean, for the most part they did document things on the hard

14

card, negative or positive.

15

Q.

So.

From your memory, and I know it has been over a year -- and

16

you can say I don’t recall -- but do you recall him ever being

17

counseled again for initiating movement?

18

A.

I don’t recall, sir.

19

Q.

Okay.

And in this instance the reason why he was counseled

20

for initiating movement was, you know -- that could be

21

misinterpreted, correct?

22
23

A.

Well a couple of things -- yes, it could be misinterpreted

as, hey, you know, you trying to make a move?

5279

What are you trying to

09172

1

do?

2

fall and hurt himself ‘cause, again, you know, leg restraints, that

3

kind of thing has to be applied.

4

sir, again, is just safety -- not moving around, and just pushing

5

your hands through the feed tray before the guard is ready -- we

6

caution inmates about that, sir.

7

The other concern we have though -- so that he doesn’t possibly

Q.

Okay.

And, you know, the main concern,

And do you ever recall saying the reason why he was

8

counseled is because if he falls his attorney might have a field day

9

with that?

10

A.

I don’t recall saying that, sir.

I mean -- you know,

11

again, my issue is the safety, security, and custody of those

12

prisoners.

13

around.

14

having a field day with that.

15
16

Q.

And, you know, again, for me, I’m just big on safety all

So I don’t recall making a comment as far as his attorney

Okay.

If you’ll look at your 23 February report -- and

also -- I guess it’s 23 February through 1 March.

17

A.

[Looking through the documents] Wait a minute.

18

Q.

You document -- and you might be able to testify from

19

memory on this -- where PFC Manning was counseled several times for

20

lining out statements on a voluntary report.

21
22
23

A.
sir.

[Looking through the documents] Hold on.

You said 23 February?
Q.

Right.

Just from your memory ----

5280

Let me get there,

09173

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

---- and if you have to resort to that, that’s fine.

3

do you recall PFC Manning being counseled for lining through

4

voluntary statements?

5

A.

But

Yeah, he was crossing out words on the form and things like

6

that.

7

recall -- you know, don’t alter the form.

8

out the voluntary statement or whatever, you know, that’s one thing.

9

But altering the form itself, no, you don’t do that.

10
11

And he was told, hey, that is an OPNAV form -- for what I

Q.

If you don’t want to fill

And PFC Manning explained that his attorney advised him not

to fill out voluntary statements?

12

A.

He told me that, sir.

Yeah.

13

Q.

And he was counseled though for -- for -- when he chose to

14

-- for drawing out or lining through portions of the voluntary

15

statement?

16

A.

Right.

He was just told, hey, look, if you’re going to

17

fill it out, just put the information in there and do not cross the

18

words out or “X” things out.

19

Q.

That’s correct.

And were you ever told that the reason why he was crossing

20

through some of the voluntary statements was because he wasn’t

21

voluntarily giving up his rec call?

22
23

A.

No, sir.

He told me that the reason why he was doing it

was because you told him do not fill out forms or make statements.

5281

09174

1

And he did mention the word “sworn” and I said, you know, this is a

2

voluntary statement.

3

want to give up rec call.

4

He knows that.

5

Sergeant Blenis and Master Papakie.

6

getting rec call, believe you me, that had better come from him as he

7

said he didn’t want it.

8

couple of times he didn’t feel well.

9

Everything was all right.

But, no, he’s never said that because he didn’t
Again, sir, I hold the staff accountable.

He’s heard me express that in front of Master
And something like him not

I mean, there were times when, you know -- a
They called the doc.

He just -- times he just did not feel like

10

going, which is fine.

So definitely he never said that I did that

11

because, well, it wasn’t voluntary.

12

recreation call, that was solely because he said “I don’t want rec

13

call today.”

14

Q.

No.

Whenever he did not get

And that he’s entitled to do that.

And you wanted the voluntary statements because you wanted

15

to make sure it was PFC Manning’s choice not to do rec as opposed to

16

the staff just saying we don’t have time in the plan of the day to

17

give you your rec call?

18

A.

Absolutely.

Not that I distrust the staff, but, again, I

19

just like to make sure that prisoners are taken care of.

20

know, if that’s something he gave up, whether it was that or

21

visitation, that I needed to know -- hey, ma’am, you know, I just

22

didn’t feel like rec call.

23

Q.

And, you

All right, and you also note in one of your weekly reports

5282

09175

1

that PFC Manning was counseled for making a head call when a female

2

was present.

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And do you recall the circumstances of that?

5

A.

No.

Do you recall that?

I was briefed on it.

And they put a note on his hard

6

card.

But, again, if I don’t see chronic infractions of the same

7

thing, I don’t go crazy.

8

class in indoc -- obviously there are females on the staff, so all

9

inmates are told of that.

Okay, he was told -- and they give those

I don’t know if one day maybe he forgot or

10

really had to go.

11

little entry on the hard card.

12

and over then obviously they could have done a disciplinary report.

13

And to my knowledge that wasn’t the case.

14

Q.

Okay.

So being counseled on it, again, it’s just one
Now had he done that over and over

And then also in your weekly reports you document

15

that he was counseled by the staff for covering himself completely

16

after taps.

17

A.

Do you recall that?

Oh, yes, sir.

That -- they brought it to my attention.

18

And, again, at that level when they make simple corrections, hey,

19

don’t do this, don’t do that -- some minor documentations just to

20

say, hey, we told him that.

21

actions are standard with all inmates.

22
23

Q.

But, again, these things -- these
So.

And in -- my understand is that he was wearing the suicide

smock at this time, correct?

5283

09176

1

A.

Well it would depend on the day, sir.

2

Q.

If it was -- if it were in the latter part of March?

3

A.

Yes; if it was later in March then that would be correct,

Q.

And he was covering himself then with -- in order to cover

4

sir.

5
6

himself it would have been with his suicide prevention blanket?

7
8
9

So I’d have to look.

A.
them.

Yes, he would have to use that, sir, because he had two of

So he would -- that’s probably what he covered himself with.
Q.

And that would be doing something that -- unless the staff

10

knew he was doing right when he went to bed, he would be doing that

11

when he was asleep, correct?

12

A.

Say that again, sir.

13

Q.

Yeah.

14

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

15

Q.

---- and the staff sees you do it like right when you go to

Like if you’re in bed ----

16

bed -- cover yourself -- that would be a voluntary action on your

17

part, right?

18

A.

Well, yeah, but, again, they’re not allowed to cover their

19

heads at any time, sir, whether they first lay in the rack or -- or

20

if they wake up in the night, use the head, and do it.

21

they’re not supposed to do that.

22
23

Q.

But, no,

And if they do it when they’re asleep, you know, they cover

themselves just while they’re asleep, then in that instance that

5284

09177

1

would be involuntary behavior, would you agree?

2

A.

I mean, I don’t -- I mean I don’t know exactly what you

3

mean.

I mean if they cover themselves, they cover themselves.

4

mean -- but I’m not -- are you trying to get at the point that, okay,

5

he’s sleeping, and then maybe he rolls over and somehow he ends up

6

with his head being covered or something like that?

7

Q.

Right.

8

A.

Well, I mean, if that’s the case, sir, then, yes.

9

I

But in -

- even in that instance they will, you know, definitely try without

10

awaking him or -- or if they can’t -- if -- you know, they’ll kind of

11

try to tell him without him or the rest of the detainees -- please,

12

uncover your head.

13

was actually sleeping that, you know, that that occurred.

14

sure.

15

Q.

Okay.

But, again, I’m not sure that during the times he

And there was another occasion where he was

16

counseled because he didn’t eat his entire noon meal.

17

that?

18

A.

I’m not

Do you recall

I don’t believe he was counseled in that sense like, hey,

19

you did something wrong.

But, you know, we try to encourage them to

20

finish their meals because -- especially at dinner.

21

again.

22

the morning.

23

try to finish your -- your meal.

It’s a long time

They don’t eat again until -- till -- till breakfast time in
So, you know, he was -- he probably was just told, hey,

5285

09178

1
2

Q.

Do you recall if he was counseled based upon his response

when he was told to finish his meal?

3

A.

I don’t recall, sir.

I would have to either look at the --

4

the incident report or the hard card.

5

say.

6
7
8
9
10

Q.

It’s kind of hard for me to

Go ahead and take a look at your 23 March 2011 report.

[The witness did as directed.]
Q.

Actually it carries from 23 March to 29 March.

So I’m not

for sure if he would have had -- it might have been the later part of
the page.

11

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

12

Q.

And I think it’s going to be on the second page [assisting

13

Okay.

the witness looking through the documents].

14

A.

15

[Pause]

16

A.

All right [looking through the documents].

[Reading from the document] Well it says he was also upset

17

about being questioned as to why he did not eat his entire noon meal.

18

SND was told not to take these personally and that the staff is going

19

to make corrections when necessary or ask questions if they see

20

something out of the ordinary.

21

how come you didn’t eat all your chow today?

22

And it probably was something as simple as that, sir.

23

Q.

And that’s just as simple as, hey,
Or is everything okay?

Was he counseled for his response or not?

5286

09179

1

A.

2

[Pause]

[Looking at the document] Let’s see.

3

MJ:

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5

MJ:

6
7

Are you on 23 March?
That’s the 30 March one.

30 March.

[Pause while the witness read the document.]
A.

[Reading from the document] No, it just says one behavioral

8

observation report submitted on 28 March 2011 annotating SND’s lack

9

of desire to eat his full noon meal.

So something like that is not a

10

counseling like he’s doing something wrong.

11

annotate for the record so if we see a pattern of missing meals, then

12

we can go back and say, hey, this started on this day or whatever.

13

So it’s not a thing of, you know, he’s being counseled like, well,

14

you absolutely did something wrong.

15

some reason he doesn’t have an appetite, we’re not going to ram the

16

food down his throat.

17
18
19

Q.

Right.

Those are things we

If he doesn’t feel good or for

So.

But then he -- he got upset -- and was he counseled

for his response?
A.

I don’t see that that’s suggested here though.

I mean, he

20

just -- I just see what Gunny Blenis said that -- that he said.

21

just kind of -- you know, he just kind of seemed irritated that --

22

that they even asked about it.

23

Q.

Okay.

5287

He

09180

1

A.

So I don’t know that the counselor -- the counsel was

2

achieved for him -- you know, responded to them and then

3

disrespectful then -- I don’t know, sir.

4
5

Q.

All right.

The entire time that you were at Quantico, you

had PFC Manning in MAX and POI, correct?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And you recognize that holding people in MAX is a manpower

8

intensive endeavor for your staff?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

It’s also taxing on the detainee, is it not?

11

A.

I’m sure it is, sir, absolutely.

12

Q.

And you would only hold a detainee in MAX if it was

13

absolutely necessary?

14

A.

That’s right, sir.

15

Q.

Now let’s talk about some of the restrictions that PFC

16

Manning was held in while he was in MAX under your command.

17

A.

Okay.

18

Q.

Did you continue all the same restrictions as Chief

19
20
21
22
23

Averhart?
A.

I mean the handling letter, yes, remained the same.

But

any MAX POI or MAX SR, sir, yes, those were the same.
Q.

So you agreed with each of those restrictions that Chief

Averhart had prior to you taking command?

5288

09181

1

A.

Oh, yes, sir.

2

Q.

And you believe each were absolutely necessary?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

for any other MAX detainee anywhere else.

5

Q.

6

is true.

7

of rec?

8

A.

9

But, again, that was nothing out of the ordinary

And I want -- I want to use your experience to see if this
For MAX detainees, you said that MAX detainees get one hour

All prisoners get one hour of rec call, sir, to include

maximum.

10

Q.

And why is that?

11

A.

I mean, recreation is important.

I mean, they get a chance

12

to go outside or indoors if it’s below 32 degrees.

13

inside for them to use.

14

of the day because we feel it’s important that they get recreation

15

call.

16
17

Q.

We have equipment

But recreation call; we had it on the plan

So would I be wrong if -- like you say you’re coming now as

your position as the Deputy IG, right?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

If I’m the commander of a facility, you come in and you see

20

all my MAX detainees are getting 20 minutes of Sunshine Call, and you

21

ask me about that as a Deputy IG.

22

minutes of Sunshine; that’s by reg.

23

A.

And I tell you MAX people get 20
What do you say to me?

And I say, you know -- because things like rec call and

5289

09182

1

Sunshine Call, that’s at the CO’s discretion.

2

based on a lot of things; behavior or whatever.

3

discretion, but -- well this -- that wouldn’t be an IG issue

4

necessarily, but -- to be honest with you -- me -- I might ask you,

5

you know, do they get recreation call?

6

available?

7

somewhere for them to go do rec call -- that kind of thing.

8
9

A.

And, you know, it’s
So the CO has that

Do you have facilities

What do you do if it’s cold outside?

Do you have

And what if I tell you as the commander; if you’re in MAX

you’re automatically only given 20 minutes of Sunshine.

That’s the

10

way I read SECNAV instruction.

And let’s say a whole bunch of the

11

detainees complain about it to the IG and that’s why you’re there.

12

A.

Okay.

13

Q.

Are you coming with your correctional experience saying

14

that I’m wrong?

15

say you only get 20 minutes of Sunshine Call if you’re a MAX?

16

A.

Or are you saying -- are you saying the SECNAV does

Well, I would go with what the SECNAV says.

But, again, I

17

would also reiterate the fact that recreation call, if possible and

18

if feasible, should be given.

19

So me personally, I would prefer the rec call, but that’s something I

20

would ask you like why are you only doing Sunshine Call, you know.

21

What’s the deal with recreation call?

22

don’t have equipment or something is wrong in the outside perimeter

23

that it can’t be done.

And the SECNAV outlines that as well.

Is it that he -- maybe you

So I would ask those questions.

5290

09183

1

Q.

And I guess that’s what I’m trying to get at.

To your

2

knowledge does the SECNAV restrict MAX detainees to 20 minutes of

3

Sunshine Call?

4

A.

I -- that’s something I’m not sure of, sir.

But, again,

5

from my experiences and everything we’ve always done an hour of rec

6

call.

7

depending on, you know, behavior -- that kind of thing -- that I was

8

-- I mean, in other facilities where, yes, they would do -- take them

9

out to Sunshine Call 20 minutes -- 30 minutes.

10
11

But I do -- I am familiar with other facilities with MAXs --

But, again, a lot of

this, sir, is at the CO’s discretion based on behavior.
Q.

And now let’s talk about with you -- just you as the CO;

12

when would you take a MAX detainee’s one hour of rec call away and

13

say you’re only getting 20 minutes of Sunshine Call?

14

A.

I wouldn’t.

Now if there’s an issue with -- with behavior

15

problems or, you know, not using the equipment properly, we would

16

give them a chance to say, hey, look this is not what you do, blah,

17

blah, blah.

18

something, you know, like this person is just like very belligerent,

19

disciplinary problem -- because recreation call is really an

20

incentive, you know, for them to work towards.

21

maybe they did something really out of line and -- or they have a

22

patterns of little -- getting counseled on times for things, then

23

that could be one of the things I might restrict or limit.

But I mean me personally, unless it was some grave

5291

So for me, unless

09184

1

Q.

Would you see a problem if a detainee’s otherwise very

2

compliant, following the rules, continuing a detainee on just 20

3

minutes of Sunshine Call for say 5 months -- would that ----

4

A.

I wouldn’t do it, but, again ----

5

Q.

And why?

6

A.

I mean for me -- again, I look at things that are important

That’s what I want to get at.

7

to inmates; recreation call, mail call, visitation, chow, phone

8

calls.

9

important to them that I recognize.

So for me they’re just some things that I know that’s
So whenever possible, I always

10

try to make sure that they’ll be afforded all those opportunities,

11

again, unless it’s a disciplinary problem, they’re abusing some kind

12

of privileges, some kind of way.

13

those -- get those incentives.

14
15

Q.

Okay.

But, no, I -- I like that they keep

Have you ever had a detainee where you kept them

with just 20 minutes of Sunshine Call for five months?

16

A.

No, sir.

17

Q.

Now let’s just talk about -- I just want to verify the

18

restriction -- or conditions under your view of MAX, okay?

19

A.

Okay.

20

Q.

My understanding is that PFC Manning was placed in a cell

21
22
23

directly in front of the observation booth?
A.

Well his cell’s changed from time to time so it wasn’t --

you know, they could see him most -- most of him in his cell.

5292

But he

09185

1

changed cells from time to time.

2

lot of vision on him, yes.

3
4

Q.

A.

Yes, sir.

But it’s just -- depending on the cell; some had

more -- they could see him more than maybe other.

7
8

The other cell that he was in was that still within

eyesight of the observation booth?

5
6

But one of them -- yes, they had a

Q.

And my understanding PFC Manning and everyone else was

awoken at 05 and then 2200 were taps?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And during the duty day was not allowed to lie down on his

A.

No inmates are allowed to lay on their rack or sleep unless

11
12
13
14

Reveille was 05 and taps was 2200, sir.

rack?

they’re on medical segregation and the doc’ orders that.
Q.

And I imagine -- we’ve heard other testimony where -- if

15

there’s other positions that you might go into that they wouldn’t

16

allow you to go into because you -- it might induce sleep.

17

could -- could you lie down on your stomach reading a book?

Like

18

A.

No, sir.

19

Q.

And that reason why would be that might bring on falling

20

asleep?

21

A.

And it’s still laying in their rack.

And, again, sir, it’s

22

pretty busy in there during the day between either the brig chaplain

23

coming on MO, the corpsman, me making my rounds, it could be the

5293

09186

1

battalion commander -- from time to time, he came by to see the

2

inmates.

3

other inmates who worked, they weren’t allowed to sleep either.

4

we always tell them, you know, hey, sit up on your rack.

5

given time they may have an attorney visiting.

6

allow any inmates, again, to sleep unless it’s a medical condition

7

that allows that and we -- the doc’ tells us so.

8
9
10
11

Q.

So, to be honest with you, we always kept them up.

And so -- and I understand that.

The
So

At any

So, no, we don’t

So are there any

positions that a detainee is not allowed to be in on the rack because
of the fear that you might fall asleep?
A.

Well, I would say laying down in any form, sir.

I mean

12

it’s -- they’re probably more likely to get more comfortable laying

13

down and could fall asleep.

14
15

Q.

What about if -- if you’re on the rack and you’re sitting

down and you’re leaning up against the wall.

Can you do that?

16

A.

Yeah, if he’s sitting on his rack.

17

Q.

You wouldn’t be told you couldn’t lean your back against

18

I don’t.

the wall?

19

A.

I never told the inmates that.

20

Q.

Okay.

Now at night you indicated that if the guards

21

couldn’t see PFC Manning clearly, meaning his head or whatnot, they

22

would do their best not to wake him up, but they would have to wake

23

him up in order to check on him, correct?

5294

09187

1

A.

That is correct, sir.

2

Q.

And whenever PFC Manning was outside of his cell, because

3

he was MAX, you would lock down the facility?

4

A.

All MAXs, yes, sir.

5

Q.

And when he was taken to anyplace he had to be in full

6

In that case, yes.

restraints?

7

A.

That’s correct, sir.

8

Q.

When he was on his one hour of recreation call were all the

9
10

restraints from him at that point?
A.

They were, sir.

Again, seeing that he was that problem

11

detainee, you know, he’s in custody for a long time -- obviously nine

12

months or even now it’s a very long time for somebody to be in

13

pretrial confinement.

14

certain things that you could afford them, you know, that’s -- that’s

15

not an issue, you know.

16

guards there.

17

static machine with, you know, restraints.

18

something that we say, hey, remove all restraints.

19

best out of that one hour a day that he can.

20
21
22
23

Q.

So when you look at behavior, you look at

He’s in an enclosed area.

There are two

So, you know, obviously he cannot do pull ups on a
So that’s not -- that’s
Let them get the

Now would you ever have a detainee go on his rec call and

then keep him in full restraints?
A.

No, sir.

I mean, again, it’s either they’re inside -- but,

again, it’ll be two guards in there.

5295

If it’s outside and it’s an

09188

1
2

enclosed area, remove them -- I remove restraints.
Q.

Would you see any point -- well, how about if you had him

3

on 20 minutes of Sunshine Call?

Let’s say disruptive detainee or for

4

whatever reason you’ve taken the one hour away and you put him on 20

5

minutes.

6

restraints for his 20 minutes?

You bring them outside, would you keep them in full

7

A.

Probably not, sir.

8

Q.

And why not?

9

A.

I mean, again, if -- unless this is a type of prisoner

10

that’s assaulting, stabbing, that kind of thing, then he probably

11

wouldn’t even get that Sunshine Call.

12

outside and enclosed in an area that’s secured, I -- I wouldn’t keep

13

the restraints on unless, like I said, that is one of those prisoners

14

that even with staff there’s caution that needs to be taken.

15

Q.

But, me personally, they’re

And what about on the indoor area if -- if they only got 20

16

minutes for the indoor rec area that you had, would you take the

17

restraints off with the exception of the handcuffs and leave the

18

handcuffs on them?

19

A.

No, sir.

Again, I would give them the full hour.

And in

20

his case I specifically told them if you ask for more time, that’s

21

not an issue.

22

‘cause, again, between the static pull up machine and dips and the

23

other equipment we had in there, it just doesn’t make sense.

So he -- but, no, I wouldn’t leave the restraints on

5296

How’s

09189

1

he supposed to use it?

2

Q.

Right.

3

A.

Now if he elects not to use it; that’s one thing.

4

I wouldn’t keep the restraints on.

5
6

But, no,

Q.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

Now PFC Manning was

authorized noncontact visits, correct?

7

A.

He was authorized what kind of visits?

8

Q.

Noncontact visits.

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

And my understanding is that this was on Saturdays and

11

Sundays between 1200 and 1500 hours?

12

A.

And on holidays as well, sir, yes.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

And during these visits, he would have to be in his

hand and leg restraints though, correct?

15

A.

That’s correct, sir.

16

Q.

And that was because he was MAX and he was outside of his

18

A.

That’s right, sir.

19

Q.

And my understanding of having been there the observation -

17

cell?

20

- the noncontact booth was about 4 by 6 with a class partition in

21

between it?

22

A.

That’s right, sir.

23

Q.

And when you were the brig OIC was his communications still

5297

09190

1
2

being recorded to your knowledge?
A.

Yes, sir, they briefed me that that’s something that they

3

wanted continued.

4

I made it very clear that there is going to be no mix up with a

5

personal visit and attorney’s visit.

6

step to make sure on which booth was monitored so that there wasn’t

7

any problems or anything were maybe he had a visit with you and then

8

next thing you know it’s being recorded.

9

me about that, I made sure I asked about that.

10

Q.

Okay.

And immediately I asked for clarification because

So I kind of took the extra

So that’s -- when they told

And when he was in with just a family member of a

11

visitor, was your requirement to keep the door slightly ajar have a

12

brig staff member there?

13

A.

That’s standard, sir.

In all facilities that I’ve worked

14

in they never closed the door all the way where the guard -- there’s

15

no visibility.

Now that’s -- but that just the standard then.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

Right.

18

Q.

And because of his status he was not permitted any work

19
20
21

So that continued because it’s standard?

details or work duty, right?
A.

According to SECNAV MAX custody detainees do not get

assigned a job in the facility, sir.

22

Q.

Let’s talk about then now POI, okay?

23

A.

Okay.

5298

09191

1

Q.

My understanding was because he was on POI, he needed to be

2

checked on or some notation on him every five minutes, is that

3

correct?

4

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5

Q.

And if the guards did, in fact, come out to PFC Manning to

6

say; PFC Manning, you okay, is everything fine, under the brig rules

7

PFC Manning would have to respond?

8
9

A.

I mean anybody -- yes, if a prisoner is spoken to then,

yes, they are required to address the staff.

10

though.

11

Q.

Right.

Yes, that’s all inmates

And in that instance he would say -- when asked the

12

question, he would respond, yes, and then the rank of whoever asking

13

him?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Was he -- he was -- at that point still required to eat all

16
17
18
19
20

of his meals in his cell still?
A.

All MAX detainees eat in their cells for every meal, sir.

That’s correct.
Q.

And because he was POI was he given -- he was only given a

spoon, I imagine, right?

21

A.

That’s correct, sir.

22

Q.

And from your memory was that a -- a plastic spoon or a

23

metal spoon?

5299

09192

1

A.

I’m pretty sure it was plastic, sir.

2

Q.

Okay.

And you said that there -- where he was at he was

3

moved occasionally.

Sometimes he was in one cell and then another

4

time he might be moved to another cell that’s close by?

5

A.

Yeah, we do that with everybody.

6

Q.

And wherever he was though was always within sight of the

7

But, yes.

observation booth, right?

8

A.

That’s correct, sir.

9

Q.

And why would he be moved from on cell to another?

10

A.

I mean, once -- as you -- you probably don’t know, but

11

periodically we go through the cells -- we just look for anything

12

that’s breaking down or any repairs that need to be made.

13

could be that.

14

different cell, sir.

15

periodically we just move them around.

16

Q.

So it

And then just to get them used to being in a
So, again, for maintenance issues and

And we heard testimony that detainees were not placed next

17

to PFC Manning for two reasons; one, national security concern, and

18

then -- and then, two, it was -- it just wasn’t done because the one

19

side he had his equipment and the other side they just left blank.

20

A.

Nah, there were periods of time when somebody was housed

21

next to him.

22

we have, you know, 12 cells on each side, 6 in the middle.

23

again, depending on what somebody’s status is or custody, yes,

Again, you know, when we have -- in special quarters,

5300

So,

09193

1

typically we try to create distance, but if we’re at full capacity

2

then we don’t have a choice.

3

but there were times when somebody was housed next to him briefly.

4

And, again, because we understand that we control when those cells

5

open and close, you know, if that’s the case and we’re at full

6

capacity or for some reasons we try to keep all the POIs on one side

7

for easy accountability, then we’ll do that.

8
9
10

Q.

But it wasn’t on a regular occurrence

From your memory how many times was there somebody in a

cell either to the left or to the right of PFC Manning?
A.

Sir, to be honest, not very often.

We weren’t at full

11

capacity very often so that’s not something where I could say, you

12

know, for four months somebody lived next to him though.

13

wasn’t -- wasn’t frequent though.

14

Q.

But it

And we’ve heard testimony that’s kind of conflicting.

I

15

just want to get your take on this.

16

could talk in a low conversational tone to any detainee on the row as

17

long as it was low conversational tone and other testimony where

18

unless the detainee was to your immediate right or left you could not

19

talk to them.

20

A.

Some that said that detainees

What was it from your prospective?

Well -- I mean, they are allowed to talk in a low

21

conversational tone, and it would make sense if they, say somebody

22

that’s close to you -- now somebody that’s five, six cells down,

23

obviously you’d have to speak very loud for them to hear.

5301

And we

09194

1

just don’t -- anything that disrupts good order, discipline, or the

2

peace down there, we don’t allow it.

3

they probably weren’t allowed to talk unless they were near to them.

4

Because, again, with all the cells down -- and not only that -- with

5

the heat and AC being on, they would really have to talk loud for

6

somebody like five or six cells down to hear them.

7

Q.

So I can see why somebody said

So.

So if you saw a -- if a -- one of your lower brig staff is

8

saying, ma’am, I make it to where they have to be on the left or

9

right of them because anything else they have to talk too loud, would

10

that be surprising to you?

11

A.

Not really, ‘cause, again, if somebody’s on the left or

12

right but then it’s an empty cell or two cells and then there’s

13

somebody else, again, be -- just because I know how loud it can be in

14

there at times, they would have to speak really, really loud.

15

I’ve never been told through none of this -- I wasn’t aware that they

16

say, hey, you can only talk to the person to the left or right of

17

you.

18

would probably have to speak really, really loud.

19
20

But

But, again, for them to want to speak to other detainees, they

Q.

Okay.

Now also because of being on POI, PFC Manning was

not given a standard mattress, correct?

21

A.

Right.

22

Q.

And he wasn’t given a pillow?

23

A.

Right.

It was all-in-one.

5302

09195

1

Q.

And he also wasn’t given any sheets.

2

A.

The blankets.

3

Q.

-- the two POI blankets?

4

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5

Q.

He was also because of being POI not permitted to have

6

He was just given --

personal items in his cell?

7

A.

That’s correct, sir.

8

Q.

And was it still the case where he’s only permitted to have

9
10

one book or one magazine at a time?
A.

Yes, sir.

Well he could change it out if, you know -- if

11

he said, okay, hey, I’m done with this.

12

they would give it to him.

13
14

Q.

Okay.

Can I have another one?

But whenever he had a book that was -- he only got

one book at a time?

15

A.

That’s right, sir.

16

Q.

And was it still the case that if he wasn’t actively

17

And

reading either the book or the magazine it would be taken from him?

18

A.

Yes, sir, if he was done, sir, yes, they would take that.

19

Q.

And why couldn’t he keep a book in his cell?

20

A.

Again, sir, some POIs -- that was just our standard. We --

21

we kind of look at what actions could we take to mitigate risk, and

22

we kind of look at that for everybody.

23

daytime, yeah, they allow one book.

5303

So, again, during the

If they’re not actively using it

09196

1

they’ll turn it back in.

2

why he can’t have all his gear in his cell; we just try to mitigate

3

risks, sir.

4
5

Q.

But we just, again, just like -- the reason

And you had testified that for the last month you -- you

allowed him to have pen and paper along with the book?

6

A.

Right.

7

Q.

And that was so he could take notes or do whatever he

8

wanted to do?

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

And was that the same that if he wasn’t actively reading

11

the book and using the pen and paper that that stuff would be secured

12

from him?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

If he indicated he was done -- I mean, you know,

14

he may have said, well, I’m just taking a quick break for a couple of

15

minutes; then that’s fine.

16

yes, they would take it, sir.

17

Q.

But if he indicated he was done then,

And as the Brig OIC under -- for your rules, was -- let me

18

ask you this -- actually this ways -- I’m sorry -- were detainees

19

allowed to exercise in the cell if they were MDI?

20
21

A.

If they’re MDI but not SR or POI they would -- they’d be

allowed to do calisthenics in the cell.

22

Q.

And what -- was there a limitations or anything?

23

A.

I mean they were told, you know, don’t overexert yourself,

5304

09197

1

you know, don’t try to do things like inverted pushups; that kind of

2

thing, you know.

3

basic pushups.

4

exercises that maybe you do in your barracks room where you could

5

hurt yourself.

6

Q.

Okay.

So just basic running in place, let’s say, or just
So, yes, we just told them, hey, do not do any

And then because Manning was -- was either -- well,

7

you tell me, either MAX or POI, which one prevented him from

8

exercising, or was it both?

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16

A.

While on POI or SR they’re not allowed to exercise in their

cells, sir.
Q.

So if you take POI/SR away and he’s just MAX could you

exercise in your cell?
A.

I can’t remember what my handling letters were for just MAX

without those conditions, sir, to be honest with you.
Q.

Okay.

But in Manning’s case at least because we know he’s

POI, that’s what prevented him from being exer --

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

-- being able to exercise?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And then at least after -- I guess prior to 2 March before

21

his underwear was taken from him, what would Manning have to be in at

22

taps basically?

23

A.

What was he allowed to have on him?

I believe they allowed him to have his underwear prior to

5305

09198

1

taps.

Yeah, he had to turn in his -- the detainee uniform or sweats,

2

whatever he had on during the day.

3

Q.

So he would have to strip down to his underwear?

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

And he had his two blankets.
And then after 2 March, but before receiving the

smock on 7 March, he would have to strip down and sleep naked.

7

A.

With the two blankets, yes, sir.

8

Q.

And then, I guess, on 7 March, he would have to strip down

9
10
11
12
13

and then he would put on the suicide smock?
A.

Well, he would put it on and then remove his underwear,

right.
Q.

Okay.

At the end of the night he was in the suicide smock

and nothing else?

14

A.

And the two blankets, sir.

15

Q.

And because of being in POI he was not permitted to have

16
17

hygiene items in his cell?
A.

Right.

It was given to him -- like I said, close to

18

reveille they’ll just put it on the feed tray.

19

and return it.

20
21

Q.

And he would use it

And he was, I guess, permitted for a razor -- they would

give him a razor in the morning to use?

22

A.

Yes, he was allowed to shave, sir.

23

Q.

And what would happen once he was given the razor?

5306

09199

1

A.

He would shave -- I imagine they watched him.

And he would

2

turn it -- he would turn it back in for accountability because they

3

count how many razors are given out and received.

4
5
6
7
8
9

Q.

Okay, so someone would watch him at all times when he had

the razor?
A.

Well, I mean, I wasn’t there, sir.

But I would imagine

that that’s what took place.
Q.

And then with toilet paper; he had to ask for toilet paper

still?

10

A.

All POI and SR detainees, sir, yes, upon request.

11

Q.

Was PFC Manning permitted to have shoes in his cell?

12

A.

I believe he just had his socks and flip flops, sir, I

13

think.

14

WIT: Now can we take a break, sir?

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

16

WIT: Is that fine?

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

18

MJ:

19

WIT: Just 10 minutes, ma’am, if that’s okay.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

MJ:

All right.

All right.

Yeah, certainly.

Certainly.
How long would you like?

That’s fine.
That’s fine.

Court is in recess until 10

22

minutes after 3 or 1500.

23

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1500, 7 December 2012.]

5307

09200

1

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1512, 7 December

2

2012.]

3

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

4

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

5

again present in court.

6

Coombs?

7
8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Mr.

Chief Barnes, again, I remind you you’re

under oath.

9
10

The witness is on the witness chair.

WIT: Yes, sir.
[Examination of the witness continued.]

11

Q.

Now, Chief, I want to talk about the roles of the doctors,

13

A.

Okay.

14

Q.

The main doctor that you had seeing PFC Manning during your

12

15

okay?

command was Colonel Malone, correct?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And there were a couple other doctors as well though, is

18

that right?

19

A.

Right.

20

Q.

There was a Lieutenant Colonel Russell who saw PFC Manning

21

in the April timeframe towards the end of PFC Manning’s time at

22

Quantico, correct?

23

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5308

09201

1

Q.

And there was also a Doctor -- is it Yao [pronounced] or Ya

2

[pronounced]?

3

A.

Doctor Yao, sir.

4

Q.

And what was Doctor Yao’s role?

5

A.

She came in towards the end, sir.

I believe Doctor Malone

6

requested her services.

7

come in and address the behavior issues that we seeing in his cell,

8

sir.

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I think she was a forensic psychologist to

I’m showing you what’s been marked Appellate

10

Exhibit 441G [handing the document to the witness].

11

WIT: Okay [looking through the document].

12

Q.

13

And this is an email basically to Master Sergeant Papakie,

Gunny Sergeant Blenis and Gunny Sergeant Fuller, correct?

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes -- yes, sir.

15

Q.

And it’s basically talking about the fact that Doctor Yao

16

was going to come and start seeing Manning -- PFC Manning as well?

17

A.

Say that again, sir?

18

Q.

It was an email where you’re informing your staff that

19

Doctor Yao would be coming to see PFC Manning in addition to Colonel

20

Malone?

21

A.

Right.

22

Q.

And apparently from the email, she was going to working

23

And Lieutenant Colonel Russell -- that’s right.

with him on personality issues?

5309

09202

1

A.

That’s correct, sir.

2

Q.

And attempting to build a relationship with him?

3

A.

Say that again, sir.

4

Q.

And attempting to build a relationship with him?

5

A.

I mean I would -- I would gather that, sir -- and working

6
7
8

closely with him.
Q.

Okay.

And then there was also a Doctor Margaret Louie.

Do

you recall her?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And what was she -- her role?

11

A.

She was one of the providers that was stationed on

12

Quantico.

And, again, as a psychologist, they asked her to come in

13

from time to time to kind of help us out to make light of some of the

14

things we were seeing.

15

was asked to come by.

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

So towards the end -- in the late half, she

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate

17

Exhibit 441G [retrieving the document from the witness].

18

the witness Appellate Exhibit 441H [handing the document to the

19

witness].

20

WIT: Okay [looking at the document].

21

Q.

I’m handing

Now this is an email where Colonel Oltman is talking about

22

-- well actually it’s an email from you to Colonel Oltman, and then

23

Colonel Oltman responds.

But it’s talking about the fact that Gunny

5310

09203

1

Sergeant Blenis has contacted Doctor Louie to debrief her on PFC

2

Manning’s behavior, and then she agrees there wasn’t anything there

3

that was due to any psychiatric reasons.

Is that correct?

4

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5

Q.

Now there was also a -- a Doctor Bui, is that right?

6

A.

Yes, Commander Bui, sir, yeah.

7

Q.

And who was Commander Bui?

8

A.

He was a medical officer assigned to OCS at the time, sir.

9

Q.

And how often would he come down and see PFC Manning?

10

A.

I mean, he would make the brig runs in general once a week

11

or more as needed.

So it wasn’t a set thing, okay, where he only

12

comes on that day.

He comes one day -- once a week.

13

needed him more than that, he would come over, sir.

14
15

Q.

But if we

And Doctor Bui; would be then the medical officer, is that

right?

16

A.

That’s assigned to the brig -- yes, sir.

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right, I’m retrieving from the witness

18

Appellate Exhibit 441H [retrieving the document from the witness].

19

I’m handing the witness 441I [handing the exhibit to the witness].

20
21
22
23

Q.

And you said that Doctor Bui would come once a week on

average, I guess?
A.

Nah, usually it would be a little bit more than that.

But

the standard is just for any MO; once a week, again, unless we ask

5311

09204

1

them, you know, for different reasons to come over more frequently,

2

sir.

3
4

Q.

And with Doctor Bui -- you had testified on direct that

there was the medical officer and then there -- there was a corps --

5

A.

A corpsman --

6

Q.

-- a corpsman?

7

A.

-- right.

8

Q.

And is there a difference between the two -- of a medical

9
10

officer and a corpsman?
A.

Yes, sir.

Usually the corpsman -- obviously they’re in the

11

pay grades of like E2 to maybe E4, and they come over to do sick call

12

and medication call.

13

to make sure that in the morning and afternoon they would receive

14

med’s.

15

Q.

So inmates were taken -- they would come over

And with the corpsman it -- the corpsman -- ‘cause it’s E2

16

to E4, a corpsman is just giving med’s that a doctor has prescribed,

17

right?

18

A.

Right.

19

Q.

They not prescribing anything on their own?

20

A.

No, they don’t write prescriptions, sir.

21

Q.

So they’re basically your -- like doctor’s assistant or

22
23

And they ----

No.

something like that, would that be right?
A.

Yes.

And to finish answering your question, Commander Bui,

5312

09205

1
2

of course, instead of commander, he’s the medical officer.
Q.

Okay.

And I imagine with the -- Doctor Bui, he was just

3

there to -- for physical checkups on PFC Manning, not mental

4

checkups, right?

5

A.

No, sir.

He would make the rounds -- check on all

6

prisoners.

However, we could call him the in event let’s say a

7

prisoner’s having a breakdown or something like that -- we may feel

8

that they’re suicidal.

9

arrangements we made.

He can still come over.

That’s one of the

And the other doc’s, I know, were good with

10

that arrangement.

11

let us know, hey, this is beyond my scope; we need to get somebody

12

else in.

13

quickly to help us out, yes, he would do that.

14

Q.

Now anything obviously beyond his scope, he would

But just for a quick getting somebody in the facility

Okay.

And I imagine because of -- of the fact that they’re

15

doctors, you gave weight to each of their opinions if it impacted the

16

decision on MAX or POI for PFC Manning, correct?

17

A.

Yes.

I mean -- but, again, you know, that’s only -- you

18

know, we have that rapport.

19

they may say to me or ask me about -- yeah.

20

Q.

And, yes, I gave weight to things that

Now I want to talk now briefly about each of the doctors.

21

We’ll start off with Doctor Bui and the email that you have in front

22

of you.

23

receive an email from Doctor Bui, correct?

This -- on 9 February you sent an email -- or actually you

5313

09206

1

A.

[Looking at the document] I did, sir.

2

Q.

[Reading from a document] And he states that Manning has

3

been here for many months now, and it’s hard on him in getting on

4

hour of outside his cell.

Is that right?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And he said that it would be therapeutically beneficial for

7

PFC Manning to have more time outside of his cell?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

[Reading from a document] And your response to him was that

10

“He has been briefed by me and my predecessor on occasions too

11

numerous to count on asking for extra rec call.”

12
13
14

A.

Well, I said a lot more, but that’s part of what I said,

sir, yes.
Q.

Okay.

And did you mean by that that you’ve heard this

15

request from the doctors before or you briefed this to PFC Manning on

16

numerous times?

17

A.

No, it just means what it says; that I briefed him, you

18

know, numerous occasions.

Because that’s my way of letting him know,

19

hey, look, remember we had this talk when I first took over.

20

want you to know that nothing has changed.

21

letting him know, you know, hey, if you want extra rec call or

22

something else, just let me know.

23

providers had said, hey, you know, he needs to be out of his cell

5314

But I

So that was just me

So that wasn’t because all the

09207

1

more.

2
3

Q.

Now did you -- did you give PFC Manning more rec time

outside of his cell?

4

A.

I offered it to him.

He -- he said, no, he was good.

I

5

mean at times he would finish less than hour from what I was briefed.

6

So I just told him, hey, if you want it, just let me know.

7
8

Q.

Okay.

I want to make sure I understand your testimony; you

offered him more time outside of his cell --

9

A.

For recreation call.

10

Q.

-- and PFC Manning told you -- for recreation call --

11

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

12

Q.

-- and PFC Manning told you no?

13

A.

Well he just said -- I said, hey, if you want extra rec

14

call or something just let me know.

15

Q.

All right, so you didn’t -- you just told him if he wanted

16

it to let you know.

17

and he said, no, I don’t want it?

18
19

A.

Q.

No, I just offered it him.

I said it’s up to you.

If you

Now you do point out that PFC Manning’s correspondence time

was increased from one hour to two hours, correct?

22
23

But you didn’t say I’m giving you and extra hour

want it, let me know.

20
21

He said, okay, ma’am.

A.

Right.

But that was before my watch.

that.

5315

And I continued

09208

1
2

Q.

And -- and to be clear, that correspondence time takes

place in the cell though?

3

A.

Yes, in the evening, sir.

4

Q.

So at least from Doctor Bui’s request, PFC Manning was

5

never given extra time outside of his cell?

6

A.

Say that again, sir?

7

Q.

Based upon Doctor Bui’s request of you --

8

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

9

Q.

-- you did not give PFC Manning any extra time outside of

10
11

his cell?
A.

12

it to him.

13

of it.

14

Q.

I mean -- no I did not.

But it doesn’t mean I didn’t offer

Again, sir, I offered it to him; he didn’t take advantage

And when you forwarded this to Colonel Oltman, or at least

15

cc’ed him on this, Colonel Oltman responded with who is this guy and

16

why is he making this recommendation?

17

A.

That’s correct.

18

Q.

And your response was he’s a doc’ from OCS who comes over

19

to support, and that’s why I responded.

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And what did you mean by that?

22

A.

I mean, he come over to the brig -- again, he makes the

23

rounds to see the prisoners.

He -- if other appointments needed to

5316

09209

1

be may, let’s say off Quantico, he would make those appointments for

2

them.

3

identifying who he is -- and that he comes over to support us.

4

“Support us” meaning, hey, look, aside from making the rounds with

5

the inmates, he lets us know, hey, look, I’m going -- you know, this

6

prisoner needs appointments at Belvoir.

7

going to give you the dates do you let the unit know, hey, this is

8

what day and time, you know, you need to be here so he’s taking all

9

his appointments on time; things like that.

10
11
12

So I just said, you know, he’s a doc’ from OCS -- just

Q.

I’m going to set it up.

I’m

And the last part -- and that’s why -- that’s why I

responded did you mean anything by that?
A. [Looking at the document] Well, I just mean -- that’s why I

13

responded to his concern about him having more time out of his cell.

14

I mean, my intent when I emailed Colonel Oltman was to let him know -

15

- of course, identify who Commander Bui was, but to let him know -- I

16

responded because of his -- you know, in my email -- if you read the

17

whole thing -- it says I appreciate the concerns [reading from the

18

document].

19

quickly to let him know, hey, sir, I appreciate the concern, but --

20

and then once I sent that email, I believe the next time we saw each

21

other he said, hey, good, that makes sense.

22

But everything’s covered.

23

and asked him, and he said he was good to go.

So my thing was I responded to him obviously fairly

I just thought I’d ask.

And, again, he himself has walked around

5317

09210

1

Q.

Who said that makes sense?

2

A.

Commander Bui ‘cause -- in -- in -- when I answered his

3
4
5

email.
Q.

All right.

So did Commander Bui then, I guess, no longer

giving him additional time outside of his cell?

6

A.

7

though.

8

answered it.

9

was -- he was good with that, sir.

10

Q.

I don’t recall, to be honest with you, sir.

I doubt it

I mean it was just one of those things he had a concern; I
He understood -- he said it makes sense to him.

Okay.

And he

And then Lieutenant Colonel Russell, as we know, was

11

a doctor that came to see PFC Manning at the beginning of April and

12

towards the middle of April, correct, of 2011?

13

A.

Roughly in that timeframe, yes.

14

Q.

And I want to talk about an email that you sent to him on 4

15

April -- actually that you received from him on 4 April and then

16

responded to.

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m handing -- actually I’m retrieving from

18

the witness Appellate Exhibit 441I [retrieving the document from the

19

witness], and handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441J [handing the

20

document to the witness].

21

WIT: Okay.

22

Q.

23

Now on 4 April 2011, you received an evaluation from

Lieutenant Colonel Russell regarding PFC Manning, correct?

5318

09211

1

A.

[Looking at the document] On 4 April you said?

2

Q.

Yeah.

3

A.

Probably so, sir.

4

Q.

And the next day you sent him an email back that said --

5

and you can read along with me -- [reading from the document] hey,

6

sir, I thought about something and wanted to run it by you, the

7

defense side may try to pick apart your eval because you lined out

8

one and --

9

A.

What page?

10

Q.

-- circled another ----

11

A.

Excuse me, sir, what page are you on?

12

pages.

We’ve got like four

What pages, sir -- what page are you on, sir?

13

Q.

Your -- I guess your response to him.

Do you see ----

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay, you’re on Page 2.

15

Q.

All right, you can follow along again.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

[Reading from the document] “Hey, sir, I thought about

Okay.

18

something and wanted to run it by you.

The defense side may try to

19

pick apart your eval because you lined out one and circled another

20

answer on the evaluation.

21

course, but I have experience testifying and this is something that

22

they will put a lot of weight into to question what you really meant.

23

You do not have to change it, but these are tactics defense attorneys

It is a well written evaluation, of

5319

09212

1

use especially when they are struggling to present a good case.”

2

you see where you write that?

Do

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

So you expressed concern about, I guess, a defense attorney

5
6

picking apart Lieutenant Colonel Russell’s evaluation?
A.

Well the concern wasn’t that so much, it’s just for clarity

7

when something’s crossed out I just want to make sure what exactly

8

you mean.

9

Q.

And you suggested that he might think about changing it?

10

A.

I suggested that?

Let me go back [looking through the

11

document].

[Reading from the document] Nah, I said you do not have

12

to change it.

13

Q.

But?

14

A.

[Reading from the document] But these are tactics defense

15

attorneys use especially when they’re struggling to pro -- to present

16

a good case.

17

Q.

18
19

And based upon that he does, in fact, change his form,

correct?
A.

Well he changed it, but he made it known that the original

20

-- he cannot change the date because I mentioned the date on the

21

eval’ --

22

Q.

[Responding in the affirmative.]

23

A.

-- but he did -- let me read his response in a minute

5320

09213

1

[looking through the document].

2

Q.

3

[Pause]

4

A.

Sure.

[Reading from the document] My apologizes for making this

5

infinitely more difficult.

6

resend.

7

Q.

Right, so he --

8

A.

-- say ----

9

Q.

-- changes the form based upon your discussion with him?

10

A.

Certainly.

11

Q.

I know.

12
13

I will rewrite without changes and

‘Cause basically he’s --

But he didn’t have to, sir.

And then when he sends you the new write-up, it’s

dated 6 April and not the 1st like the original evaluation, correct?
A.

[Looking through the document] Let me look through this

14

email traffic.

15

kill me, but you dated the eval for the 6th instead of the 1st of

16

April.

17

made a mistake.

18
19

Q.

[Reading from the document] I said, okay, sir, don’t

So, yes, we like the eval’s date it occurred.

So, again, he

And he tells you he can’t backdate the eval because it’s a

medical evaluation?

20

A.

Right.

21

Q.

And that’s why the one we have in the record now is 6

22
23

April?
A.

Well I’m sure that’s the one he has there -- maybe.

5321

09214

1

Q.

2

[Pause]

3
4

Okay.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m showing the witness from Enclosure 21 of

Appellate Exhibit 259, Page 31 [handing the document to the witness].

5

WIT: Okay.

6

Q.

Do you see the date of Lieutenant Colonel Russell’s report?

7

A.

[Looking at the document] Yep, he wrote the 6th.

8

Q.

All right, so that’s why you have the 6th April instead of

9

the 1st of April when he actually saw PFC Manning?

10

A.

Okay.

11

Q.

Is that correct?

12

A.

I would guess so, yes.

13

Q.

All right, so now let’s -- let’s talk about Captain Louie

14

for a second.

15

A.

Okay.

16

Q.

Now she was brought in towards the end of PFC Manning’s

17

confinement, correct?

18

MJ:

A Navy captain or Army Captain?

19

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

20

Q.

Is that correct?

21

A.

Yes, sir, sometime in the later half, yes.

22

Q.

And how did she get brought in to your knowledge?

23

A.

Basically -- I know Colonel Choike had a meeting.

A Navy captain, ma’am.

5322

And he

09215

1

was saying, hey, look, certainly there has to be other services we

2

can get to help support him.

3

meetings with him -- I guess Colonel Malone -- and just discussing

4

some things that they think could assist them.

5

with a pretrial facility that unlike Level 1, 2 and 3 facilities, we

6

did not have a social worker on board 24 -- all the time as other

7

facilities had.

8

recall exactly when, just saying, hey, look, we don’t have a social

9

worker, we know that, but can we -- are there any psychologist or

10
11
12

Of course, you know, there’ve been

One of the problems

So basically a meeting was held -- and I don’t

anybody else available that can lend some services to PFC Manning.
Q.

Okay, so this was basically in response to what Colonel

Choike was trying to push?

13

A.

Yes, getting additional services, yes, sir.

14

Q.

And am I correct, based upon my understanding, Gunny

15

Sergeant Blenis was required to call her after every doctor eval in

16

order to basically double-check with her on PFC Manning’s mental

17

health issues?

18

A.

Well I won’t say to call it a double-check on them.

19

Obviously they’re trained in two different fields.

20

one of those things -- if we saw that behavioral stuff and it wasn’t

21

on, for example, on the day that, you know, Doctor Malone or Doctor

22

Russell would come down, to just consult with her.

23

Choike did want that to be on a regular basis especially for the

5323

But it was just

But Colonel

09216

1

weekly reviews -- so just to keep her informed.

2

so she wasn’t able to come to the brig, you know, very often.

3

Q.

Yeah.

She had a case load

And my understanding is that she would be called and

4

Gunny Sergeant Blenis would share with her the facts, and then get

5

whatever feedback from her, and then that would be included in -- in

6

your reports.

7

A.

Is that right?

Right.

Well the C&A deliberations, sir, yes.

She did try

8

to come a couple times, but, again, she still had to maintain her

9

patient load.

10

So that’s why the phone calls were made, sir.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right.

I’m retrieving from the witness

11

again Appellate Exhibit 441J [retrieving the document from the

12

witness] and handing back to you Appellate Exhibit 441G [handing the

13

document to the witness].

14

WIT: Okay.

15

Q.

16

Now the other doc’ that you had coming was a Doctor Yao, is

that right?

17

A.

Right.

18

Q.

And how many times did Doctor Yao see PFC Manning?

19

A.

No, sir, it wasn’t very much.

I think it may have been one

20

to -- like two to three times or something like that.

21

transferred shortly thereafter -- after she started coming.

22

Q.

23

A.

But he was

And who directed that Doctor Yao see PFC Manning?
Colonel Malone brought it up, sir.

5324

He says -- or he thinks

09217

1

she’ll be good to address some of the behavior things.

2

that.

3
4

He suggested

And the chain was onboard with that and didn’t have an issue.
Q.

All right, so this is Colonel Malone basically trying to

address some of the concerns that you, the command, raised with him?

5

A.

Right.

6

Q.

The same concerns that he said, from a psychiatric

7
8
9
10

standpoint, he didn’t see as being very important?
A.

Well, from a psychiatric standpoint, nothing that raises

concern or alarm, right.
Q.

Right.

And so he wanted to bring in another doctor to help

11

work with PFC Manning to ensure that these behavioral issues you were

12

noting wouldn’t continue or his behavior would adjust?

13

A.

Right.

14

Q.

And you stated that it would be a while before you could

15

expect to see any results, and that would all kind of depend on how

16

quickly Doctor Yao and PFC Manning established a bond?

17

A.

Right.

18

Q.

Now did Doctor Yao tell you or give you any reports after

19
20

her two to three times with PFC Manning?
A.

To be honest, sir, the first day she came, I wasn’t there,

21

but I knew she was coming.

And I -- I had to leave.

22

Sergeant Papakie probably spoke with her.

23

any write-ups from her.

I told Master

But I don’t recall seeing

I did get to meet her one time -- once.

5325

And

09218

1

I kind of talked to her briefly.

2

coming from Maryland.

3

of thing.

4

of things.

And, you know, I knew she was

I said, hey, I really appreciate it; that kind

But it wasn’t -- I just kind of gave her a quick overview
And she was good with that.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

I don’t recall getting any, sir.

7

Q.

All right.

8

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

9

Q.

He was, as you said, PFC Manning’s primary caregiver during

10

So never any sort of report to you from her?

And then let’s now talk about Colonel Malone.

the time that you were the commander, correct?

11

A.

That’s right, sir.

12

Q.

And when you came to Quantico, you reviewed all of Doctor

13

Hocter’s evaluations I imagine?

14

A.

Yes, I went through them, sir.

15

Q.

And you didn’t like the fact that they were basically one

16

line assessments, is that correct?

17

A.

That’s correct, sir.

18

Q.

And at that point you had a long talk with Colonel Malone

19

about the fact you didn’t like the one line assessments?

20

A.

21

meat?

22

a draft.

23

great.

Right.

I just kind of said, hey, can we add some more

He says he agrees.

It’s definitely good.

He asked me to look at it.

I told him I think it was

And that’s when we started using it, sir.

5326

And he came up with

09219

1

Q.

And you also explained to him that you didn’t -- in

2

addition to the one line assessments, you did not like forms that

3

were being filled out where the doctors were asking that PFC Manning

4

to be taken off of MAX or be taken off of POI?

5

A.

Well I just -- I don’t recall saying that, but I know with

6

all the providers I told them -- I said, your job is not to tell me

7

what custody a prisoner should be in or what status -- POI,

8

protective custody, or anything like that.

9

share your expertise in what you’re seeing with him on the

Your job is to kind of

10

psychiatric part and just kind of give me some kind of background, of

11

course, without violating HIPAA.

12

whether it’s low, medium or high, you know, his affect, mood, you

13

know, things about how he’s -- how his -- maybe this order’s going or

14

if it’s improving or -- that kind of thing.

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay.

So things like the level of risk;

I’ve retrieving from the witness

16

Appellate Exhibit 441G [retrieving the document from the witness],

17

handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441K [handing the document to

18

the witness].

19

[The civilian defense counsel handed a copy of the documents to the

20

military judge.]

21

WIT: Okay.

22

MJ:

Thank you.

23

Q.

Now you see in this email where you explain that you didn’t

5327

09220

1

want one line forms being filled out where they’re asking basically

2

to take Manning off of MAX or POI?

3

A.

Right.

4

Q.

And what you say basically is you didn’t think it was the

5

job of the psychiatrist to be making those recommendations to you,

6

the Brig Commander?

7

A.

Right, to make decisions on custody or status.

8

Q.

And what you wanted basically -- you know, obviously as a

9
10

brig commander, you believe that a psychiatrist could not order or
direct a detainee off of POI, correct?

11

A.

No.

But they can off of SR.

But as far as POI, they can

12

make recommendations say -- like he did, hey, from a psychiatric

13

standpoint there’s no need for separation or removal from general

14

population, which is some of the things he wrote.

15

well in line to say things like that.

16

Q.

So, yes, they’re

Right, but you were telling them, look, it’s not your place

17

to say take them off of POI or he doesn’t have to be on MAX.

You

18

just tell me from your medical opinion X, Y and Z, and you as the

19

correctional specialist will determine whether or not he’s on MAX or

20

POI?

21

A.

Based on what they told me, yeah.

22

Q.

And as the commander that’s what you were telling Colonel

23

Malone?

5328

09221

1

A.

Right.

2

Q.

And you told Colonel Malone that you wanted to take to him

3

both before and after each of his visits, is that correct?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And you did, in fact, talk to him both before and after his

6

visits?

7

A.

Yes, when I was at work, sir, yes, that occurred.

8

Q.

And, again, that was because if they come into your brig --

9
10
11

whoever comes into your brig, if you’re there, they need to check in
with you as the CO?
A.

No, it’s not that at all, sir.

I mean, obviously I have

12

respect for their rank and their -- their services.

So it’s not a

13

thing of well, let me tell her I’m in the facility.

No.

14

build trust.

15

in an effort for me to learn as well, because, again, I’m not trained

16

in psychiatry just like he’s not trained in corrections.

17

both talk and we -- we share our words and the things we see and the

18

things we look at, it makes for a little bit more productive

19

relationship.

20

that’s rude.

21

person coming in, I need to know who are the religious laypeople, who

22

are the MFLCs, who are the TBI specialists, who were the

23

psychiatrists that comes in to see people?

It’s to

It’s to build a good working relationship.

And that’s

So, no, they wouldn’t check in with me.

So when we

I think

But it’s just one of those things where as the new

5329

And I have that

09222

1
2
3

relationship with everybody, not just the psychiatrist.
Q.

All right.

Well you told Colonel Malone that you wanted to

get a detailed evaluation?

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

And we heard testimony from Colonel Malone that the two of

6

you would, in fact, talk about his visits after he was done seeing

7

PFC Manning, correct?

8

A.

Yes, we would talk, sir.

9

Q.

And so you would talk about his recommendations to you?

10

A.

He would, sir.

11

Q.

And you would ask questions in order for him to explain why

12
13

he’s making certain recommendations?
A.

Yeah.

But also -- I’d ask questions on -- well, sir, I

14

know you’ve seen this, but here’s what we see.

15

just -- again, me wanting to learn more and just kind of figure out,

16

you know -- I know you have one world that you -- you’re working in.

17

But because I have to consider your world, my world, and other

18

issues, I kind of need help here because it’s -- it’s kind of -- some

19

of this is not jiving with me.

20

Q.

Okay.

So a lot of it is

And I believe his words were after your

21

conversations you got to the point where you would just agree to

22

disagree.

23

A.

Would you agree with that characterization?
I don’t recall that.

I mean -- I know at times, you know,

5330

09223

1

I would say, hey, people don’t always agree.

2

don’t take things personal.

3

can recall him kind of explaining that.

4

different worlds, and those two worlds have to kind of connect in

5

some why where things make sense.

6

was help -- to aid in that effort.

7

Q.

All right.

And that’s fine.

I

And I don’t hold grudges, you know.

I

But, again, you know, two

And a lot of my questions to him

So you don’t recall getting to the point where

8

the two of you just simply said, okay, we’re going to agree to

9

disagree?

10

A.

No, sir.

We had a very good relationship.

11

Q.

And why do you think you had a very good relationship?

12

A.

I mean for one, I was very appreciative of them coming

13

down; whether it was directed or not.

14

know, he was -- he was always open to communication.

15

questions.

16

know, I appreciate you coming down.

17

that are providing services to inmates.

18

approach to him he understood and I think we both had the same thing,

19

you know, all inmates -- have their best interest at heart; that kind

20

of thing.

21

I mean, two, he would -- you
He would answer

I think he liked the fact that I said, hey, sir, you
I like to interact with people
So I just think with my

So I just think we had some things in common, sir.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Retrieving from the witness Appellate

22

Exhibit 441K [retrieving the document from the witness], and handing

23

the witness Appellate Exhibit 441L [handing the document to the

5331

09224

1
2
3
4

witness].
Q.

Now based upon just talking with Colonel Malone, you were

familiar that he knew about PFC Manning’s medical history in Kuwait?
A.

Yes, ‘cause one of the things I did, sir, was to let him

5

know, hey, at any time you want to look through his book to review

6

anything, please do.

7

you know, and Doctor Russell, just so they can -- again, in that

8

effort to kind of understand our concerns and things like that, yes,

9

he -- he was told about that.

10
11

So that’s something I made available to him,

And he, again, could have -- he was

offered the opportunity to look at his book if he had questions.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I want you to hold on to that exhibit.

And

12

I’m handing you now Appellate Exhibit 441M [handing the document to

13

the witness].

14

WIT: Okay.

15

Q.

On 23 February 2011, you sent an email to Colonel Oltman

16

expressing concern with the treatment that PFC Manning was getting

17

from Colonel Malone, correct?

18

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes.

19

Q.

And the email was about PFC Manning being taken off of

20

several medications?

21

A.

And being weaned off of some, yes, sir.

22

Q.

And you disagreed with Colonel Malone’s decision to take

23

PFC Manning off of Zoloft, which was an anti-depressant, correct?

5332

09225

1

A.

2

detail.

3

Q.

4

[Pause]

5

A.

[Looking that the document] Well let me read the email in
I don’t recall, sir.
Okay.

[Reading from the document] Well in here I stated that the

6

concern I had in regards to this was because that write-up was

7

identical to another detainee’s and I just wanted to clarify -- not

8

to question his judgment.

9

little uneasy.

10
11

Q.

But, yes, with the medication I was a

But, again, I am not a psychiatrist.

So.

Yeah, but you express your concern to Colonel Malone about

the fact that PFC Manning is being weaned off of medication, right?

12

A.

[Looking at the document] Let’s see.

13

Q.

You see in the first page where you say I told Colonel

14

Malone that I was concerned [reading from the document]?

15

about the eval’s; making sure he was accurate?

16

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me take a look.

And it was

But I was

17

concerned because it was identical to the detainee’s eval’.

18

it was accurate.

19
20

Q.

Right.

He said

And you explained to Colonel Malone your opinion

about the stressors in PFC Manning’s life at that point --

21

A.

Right.

22

Q.

-- in particular the limitations of confinement and the

23

uncertainty of his legal situation?

5333

09226

1

A.

Right.

2

Q.

And Colonel Malone said that he was comfortable taking PFC

3

Manning off of his medication?

4
5

A.

Manning agreed.

6
7

[Reading from the document] Yes, he said him and PFC

Q.

And you expressed your discomfort with this medical

decision to Colonel Oltman?

8

A.

I did.

9

Q.

You told Colonel Oltman “I’m looking at someone” -- and I

10

believe it says “someone who is not in an outpatient who is in the

11

freaking brig.

12

especially once the pace” -- “the pace of the legal proceedings pick

13

up.”

So that alone would add to his stress/depression

You see that?

14

A.

Yes, sir, I do.

15

Q.

[Reading from the document] You also say it’s only going to

16

get worse when the true weight of his legal situation future hits

17

him.

18

A.

Okay, I said that, yeah.

19

Q.

Now let’s go back to the other exhibit you have in your

20

hand, which -- if I could see it for one moment to make sure

21

[approaching the witness to review the documents].

22

Appellate Exhibit 441L.

23

it’s about a month later, you wrote to Colonel Oltman about his topic

Yes, it’s

Now in this email, which is dated 17 March;

5334

09227

1

again, correct?

2
3

A.

[Looking at the document] Yeah, but mostly about his

suicidal comments.

4

Q.

Right, well you said ----

5

A.

But I did mention ----

6

Q.

You write to him about the medication issue again, right?

7

A.

He -- it’s briefly mentioned in there, yes, sir.

8

Q.

And you said that you were thinking about the following,

9

“If we go by what PFC Manning statement when” -- “which is that he is

10

not suicidal once he’s put on med’s, then we have to ask ourselves

11

how come he’s not suicidal now that he’s off of med’s.”

12

that?

Do you see

13

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir, I do.

14

Q.

So you express to Colonel Oltman your opinion that if

15

you’re suicidal and then you’re put on medication, then -- and they

16

you’re -- you can’t be taken off those medications because you’d

17

become suicidal again.

18

A.

Is that your concern?

I’m just saying how uncommon -- again, I’m not a medical

19

professional, sir.

20

talking to Colonel Malone that, you know, that we tried to get

21

answered.

22

I’m not an expert.

23

Q.

These are some of the things, you know, and

‘Cause I can’t -- these are just questions I’m asking, but

Right.

And so as not being an expert you basically still

5335

09228

1

said you didn’t believe it was a good idea.

2

-- couldn’t see how someone wouldn’t be suicidal if they were taken

3

off of their medications?

4

A.

You couldn’t -- you were

Right, in conjunction with looking at the person’s in

5

confinement, the weight of the legal situation -- right, in addition

6

to those things -- right.

7

Q.

Now you didn’t do any research on this issue did you?

8

A.

As far as the effects of coming off of med’s -- being

9

suicidal, no, I did not do any research, sir.

10

Q.

Did you ask Colonel Malone about this issue?

11

A.

I think -- I didn’t address suicidal behavior, but I

12

remember talking to him about taking his off of med’s.

13

remember him saying, well, he would wean him -- wean him off

14

gradually.

15

And then they both agreed to come off of it because initially it was

16

a concern that -- that he refused to take his med’s.

17

realized, well, no, Doctor Malone took him off.

18

Q.

And I just

And he’ll watch his behavior as he’s being weaned off.

And then they

Well it looks like though your concern now about the fact

19

that -- the fact that he’s coming off med’s that he may become

20

suicidal.

21

A.

Was that your concern?
Well, I was -- not necessarily that he was suicidal, sir.

22

I just made a reference to the comments he made, you know, his --

23

Manning’s comments from his initial interview.

5336

And that’s just

09229

1

something that I asked.

2

be suicidal.

3

display behavior to express that?

4

this was just after the -- you know, the med’s issue and things like

5

that.

6

informed that’s all.

7

I mean, granted, at any time anybody could

You know, are they always going to verbalize that or
No, not necessarily.

But, again,

Again, these are just questions I’m asking, again, to be more

Q.

Well overall then, based upon this concern, this is part of

8

the calculus that you were taking into account when deciding should I

9

keep PFC Manning on POI certainly, right?

10

A.

Yeah, the coming off MAX?

11

Q.

Right.

12

A.

I mean -- I looked at -- he came off the medication but he

13

didn’t become suicidal.

14

knew about it, that wasn’t one of the, hey, now I’m really, really

15

concerned because he’s off medication.

16

was weaned off gradually, then he was off.

17

behavior was not seen, you know, after that.

18

Q.

Even though, yes, we talked about it -- we

I looked at the fact that he
And, again, suicidal

All right, but obviously if you’re concerned because he’s

19

in as you would say “a freaking brig” and the medication is something

20

that was needed to keep him from being suicidal, and now you’re

21

disagreeing or showing concern that he’s being taken off of it, this

22

was something you were at least considering when deciding what status

23

and classification he should be in?

5337

09230

1

A.

Yes.

Because, again, my concern is, hey, look some -- and

2

people adjust to confinement differently.

Some adjust just fine,

3

some don’t.

4

down the road.

5

How’s he going to deal with it?

6

seen flushing some of his legal documents down the toilet.

7

him, hey, don’t do that.

8

am not him.

9

though.

10

Q.

But, again, I was just trying to think ahead and look
Hey, look, the pace of things are going to pick up.
I mean at one point we -- he was
We told

So, again, for me, you have to understand I

I don’t know how much weight this is taking with him

Right.

And so when you’re addressing this with Colonel

11

Malone, he’s telling you, at least in his medical opinions each week

12

based upon the guidance he got from you, that there is no clinical

13

reason for him to be in POI, correct?

14

A.

Right.

15

Q.

He telld you this week after week?

16

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

17

Q.

And yet you retain PFC Manning in MAX and POI week after

19

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

20

Q.

Why?

21

A.

Well, sir, again, that’s from a psychiatric standpoint.

18

week?

22

Again, people who want to commit suicide; they’re not going to tell

23

you.

They’re not going to send you a memo.

5338

They’re not going to

09231

1

come out and do it.

2

do have to take into consideration.

3

Russell said, it’s very clear that he knows he has to do the leg

4

work.

5

want to kill myself.

6

the cell that’s causing them concerns, you know.

7

very honest, that’s one part -- the mental health piece, but, again,

8

we have just other factors to look at.

9

the decreased communication, the -- you know, the things he was doing

10

in the cell, not filling chits asking me for anything, offer an extra

11

rec call, things like that that I think might can -- that can help

12

him time -- or ease the burden a little bit -- none of that.

13

-- I mean, sir ----

14

Again, the psychiatry piece is one part that I
And, you know, like Doctor

He knows, hey, look, I have to tell them this is why I don’t

Q.

I have to stop doing these things that I do in
So -- I mean to be

So, again, when you look at

So just

Wasn’t one of your other concerns that if something

15

happened to PFC Manning, if he actually did do something under your

16

watch, that that would impact your career?

17

A.

I mean, sir, to be honest, that wasn’t in the forefront of

18

my mind.

Like I brief the Marines when I got on deck; I said, we’ve

19

just got to stick to basic corrections.

20

the prisoners?

21

prisoner, a MAX, medium -- and it doesn’t matter.

22

kept saying, oh, you know what, I’m going to keep him in MAX/POI

23

because I’m worried about my career.

Yes we do.

Do we continuously monitor

It doesn’t matter if it’s an officer

5339

I mean, I never

If that was the case, sir --

09232

1

you saw the emails that I put, I have no problems taking him off POI.

2

I made that clear to Colonel Oltman ----

3

Q.

Well do you recall telling the defense that my issue was as

4

a young corrections officer in the Marine Corps with under 20 years

5

of service, I have more to prove and more to work towards.

6

recall telling us that?

7

A.

No.

Do you

I recall when I spoke to Captain Tooman that I just

8

kind of said, hey, I take my job very seriously.

I love corrections,

9

been in the field my whole career except for one year.

But I do

10

remember saying, hey, look, I’m not -- you know, I’m a true

11

professional.

12

but, again, you know, I’m not going to go against correctional

13

judgment, you know.

14

my career -- no -- but, again, I do understand that, hey, with --

15

people get relieved for whatever, suicide, escape, whatever the case

16

is, you know, if they’re over 20 maybe they’ll tell them to retire.

17

Obviously I don’t have that option.

I’m going to do, you know, the things I need to do,

But, again, in my mind, you know, worrying about

But, again --

18

Q.

Yeah, and do you --

19

A.

-- my career ----

20

Q.

-- recall saying that to us -- something along the lines of

21

-- because, guess what, if I make a mistake and have a suicide on my

22

watch, there’s no, hey, Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, you need to

23

retire.

I’ll probably get put out with no retirement.

5340

So everything

09233

1

I’ve worked really hard for for the past 16 years goes down the

2

tubes.

3

so he could retire.

4

And then you talk about Chief Averhart had more than 20 years

A.

Do you recall saying that?

Vaguely, sir.

Again, we’ve talked on different occasions.

5

So, you know, we’ve talked more than once.

6

say.

7

I’m just going to keep him there.

8
9

So it’s kind of hard to

But, again, that was not a reason for me to say, well, too bad.

Q.

Well do you recall at least expressing that concern that,

hey, look, if something happens and somebody says I’m at fault and I

10

get relieved, I’ve only got 16 years -- and now 16 years and 8

11

months, I don’t have the luxury of retirement at that point?

12

A.

Yes, sir, I don’t recall.

We had different conversations.

13

But I just knew one of the things I said was I make decisions based

14

on my best correctional judgment.

15

otherwise; simply ask for it in writing so that I’m covered.

16

Q.

And when people ask me to do

Now when you say you don’t recall, are you saying that you

17

don’t recall saying that meaning that you didn’t say it or I don’t

18

recall because I just don’t remember it?

19

A.

Honestly, sir, I don’t remember.

We spoke a couple of

20

times, you know, maybe three -- four times.

21

was email traffic -- he was out, I was out, so to be very honest with

22

you, sir, I don’t recall.

23

Q.

Okay.

I know sometimes there

Now I want to look at the C&A board forms that you

5341

09234

1

signed off on each week, okay?

2

A.

Okay.

3

Q.

And I want to go ahead and have those in front of you.

4

might already have them.

5

witness in looking through the documents]?

6

A.

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Do you have those up there [assisting the
Yes, you do.

[Looking through the documents] Yep.
Okay.

I’ll go ahead and retrieve Appellate

8

Exhibit 441L and 441M from you [retrieving the documents from the

9

witness].

10

Q.

You

Now look -- again -- and I think we covered this a little

11

bit, but I want to make sure, even under your understanding when we -

12

- when we’re looking at boxes that are checked on each of these C&A

13

board eval’s --

14

A.

[Looking at the documents and responding in the

15

affirmative.]

16

Q.

-- those boxes are checked on the higher custody and lower

17

custody classification standards by the guidance -- by the counselor,

18

correct?

19

A.

That’s correct, sir.

20

Q.

And when there was a new form that was used with the

21
22
23

detainee’s election that was based upon your request?
A.

Right.

But one of the forms as you noted, that was dated

before I officially took over.

But, yes, that’s the question I

5342

09235

1

raised and they changed it.

2

Q.

Right.

3

report?

4

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay, sir.

5

Q.

Now I want to talk about some of the things that are

6

checked on that.

7

checked?

So can you turn to the 28 January 2011 C&A board

You see assaultive/disruptive behavior that’s

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

9

Q.

That’s presumably the 18 January incident or is that

10
11

something else?
A.

Yeah, that -- that incident -- and, of course, again, we

12

review everything we have -- that we got in when he came in.

13

the paperwork from Kuwait as well -- but, yes.

So --

14

Q.

And disruptive is actually circled --

15

A.

Right.

16

Q.

-- right?

17

A.

Right.

18

Q.

And the same box is -- is checked for the next four weeks.

19

And you can kind of flip through to see that.

20

ask you why is it checked for the next four weeks?

21

A.

And I just wanted to

[Looking through the documents] I mean, when they check

22

these they’re just looking at things in the history or things that

23

are ongoing.

They may change.

For example; let’s say he has better

5343

09236

1

family relationships.

2

and I are getting closer, we’re talking more, they’re visiting more,

3

then that, you know, over time that box would not be checked because

4

that’s a change.

5
6

Q.

He’s saying, hey, look, you know, my family

Yeah, but in -- specifically to the assaultive/disruptive

behavior box --

7

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

8

Q.

-- can you tell me why that box is checked for the

9

following four weeks?

10

A.

I mean, sir, like I said, when they present these things in

11

front of the board, they’re going off, you know, what’s documented as

12

history there.

13
14

Q.

All right.

There’s another box that’s checked there, the

poor home conditions or family relationships?

15

A.

Okay.

16

Q.

And this box is pretty much checked week after week.

17

Do

you know why that box was checked?

18

A.

I mean he -- that’s part of the answer he gave on his

19

intake form; he did say a few family ties -- I believe that’s what he

20

said.

21

relationship with family.

22

of his family and friends from his visitation list.

23

But, again, he never showed that he had a very close

Q.

And, as a matter of fact, he removed some
So.

So was there anything PFC Manning could do about the poor

5344

09237

1

home, family -- or home conditions --

2

A.

I mean, honestly, sir --

3

Q.

-- from the brig at least?

4

A.

-- if -- yeah, if they had improved, certainly that would -

5

- that would -- that box should not be checked.

6

where, hey, look, initially upon confinement, yeah, there were little

7

to no family ties, but we know sometimes in tough situations families

8

come together, people, you know, get closer maybe than they were

9

before.

If it’s a thing

So it could be a -- had it been a thing of over time like he

10

had a lot more visits, you know, he had family in Maryland -- I know

11

his mother’s overseas; that kind of thing -- was a thing where

12

they’re able to visit more -- he had a lot more interactions or

13

talking about them more, or writing to them a lot, or he was getting

14

a lot of letters from them and he’s expressing, hey, you know, my

15

family and I are getting real close again.

16

that kind of thing, then, yes, that’d -- that would be different.

17

Obviously that something that wouldn’t be checked.

18

Q.

This is good.

You know,

But obviously if -- if he’s in confinement and he as a poor

19

relationship with his immediate family, and that doesn’t improve,

20

then that box is going to continually be checked?

21

A.

Right, if it -- if it doesn’t improve, sir, that’s correct.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

And then another box that was checked week after

week was the length of potential sentence?

5345

09238

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And why is that relevant to the issue of MAX/POI?

3

A.

Again, sir, somebody that’s in the brig for one count of

4

Article 86, UA, obviously they would not face the same type of

5

sentence as someone with alleged charges such as these.

6

potential length of sentence by the SECNAV, that’s one of the factors

7

we can consider.

8

on the charge.

9

time, sir.

10
11

Q.

So the

And, again, it -- it clearly goes -- that depends
You know, each charge carry different amounts of

And obviously PFC Manning couldn’t do anything about the

potential length of sentence that he was facing, correct?

12

A.

That’s correct, unless the command provided me a new charge

13

sheet with more reduced charges or something totally different -- way

14

scaled down, then that’s something that we would definitely take a

15

hard look at.

16

or they said, you know, what, nope, all of that is done -- just 128

17

now.

18

So it’s not just okay, okay, we get a new charge sheet

Naturally, we can’t take the same course of action.
Q.

So if the charge sheet doesn’t change and it’s still facing

19

a potentially lengthy sentence that box is always going to be

20

checked?

21

A.

Yes, sir.

22

Q.

Now this week there are some typewritten remarks.

23

see that?

5346

Do you

09239

1

A.

Say that again?

2

Q.

On this 28 January 2011 eval’ there are some type-written

3

remarks?

4

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes.

5

Q.

And who typed those?

6

A.

That’s -- the counselor would do it.

7

we would do.

8

Q.

9

That’s normally what

All right, so that would be Gunny Sergeant Blenis in this

instance?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And these same exact word-for-word typewritten remarks are

12

verbatim for the -- from the previous two C&A boards.

13

A.

[Looking through the document] Let me check, sir.

14

Q.

Sure.

15

[Pause]

16

A.

Yes, sir, that’s correct.

17

Q.

And do you know why these remarks are basically just cut

18
19

and pasted into three consecutive C&A boards?
A.

Well obviously the first two was not on my watch.

On the

20

28th, again, when I first took over, I ordered them to do a review of

21

everybody.

22

me to see an additional whatever -- what other notes that they had.

23

So I just think it was in there for -- for that reason.

And maybe it’s just, hey, putting everything in there for

5347

But in

09240

1

addition, because the board members changed sometimes, you know,

2

things like that, it’s just to give general background information.

3

Q.

Okay.

Now your remarks on the bottom say that you reviewed

4

the mental health evaluations, then PFC Manning appears to be

5

moderate -- a moderate risk of self-harm per Colonel Malone, correct?

6

A.

That’s right, sir.

7

Q.

But Colonel Malone actually indicated that PFC Manning did

8
9
10
11
12

not pose a risk to himself during that week?
A.

Yeah, but if I wrote that that’s ‘cause he -- that’s the

box he checked though.
Q.

Can you check the -- I guess, the medical eval -- do you

have those up there, too?

13

A.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

[Looking through the documents] Let’s see.
Actually you don’t.

I’m going to hand you

Enclosure 21 [handing the document to the witness].

16

Q.

And what date would you look at for this one?

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Well, the eval that was done --

18

the latest eval that was done closest to that date, sir.

19

mean, I took over on the 24th -- I would have to look.

20

sure exactly of the date.

21

some date before the 28th.

So -- I
I’m not too

So I would guess it would obviously be

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

Between that and the -- sometime before that.

5348

09241

1
2

Q.

All right.

So there’s an eval on the 28th, would that be

the one that you’d look for?

3

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me see, sir.

4

Q.

And that, by the way, is Page 25 of 36.

5

A.

Yes, because the one before that was before me.

6
7
8
9
10

So, yes,

that would be the one, sir.
Q.

All right.

And does Colonel Malone indicate that the

inmate does not pose a risk to himself?
A.

[Looking at the document] Let me read through it if you’d

give me a minute, sir.

11

Q.

12

[Pause]

13

A.

Sure.

[Reading from the document] Yes he did say would not

14

require a higher level of psychiatric care to mitigate risk at this

15

point.

16
17

Q.

And does he also indicate the inmate does not need to be

segregated from the general population?

18

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me see on this one.

19

[Pause]

20

A.

Right; he checked that box, sir.

21

Q.

And he also said that PFC Manning would not require a

22

higher level of psychiatric care at this point to mitigate the risk,

23

correct?

5349

09242

1

A.

Right.

2

Q.

And he said that PFC Manning would be required basically

3

routine outpatient follow-up?

4

A.

Yes he did put that, sir.

5

Q.

And that’s nowhere in the C&A board report, correct?

6

A.

Well, again, sir, they look at this though.

So, I mean,

7

obviously it’s not a lot of room there.

8

a continuation sheet.

9

would -- you know, we’ll talk -- of course, he would go see him -- he

I mean sometimes they’ll use

But he would -- the way it would work is, he

10

would do his eval’.

11

they would discuss it.

12

it as well -- and I’ll talk to Colonel Malone.

13
14

Q.

And then the board members would see that and
And then, obviously, I would get briefed on

But not only is it nowhere in that report -- none of the

boxes on the lower custody status are checked, correct?

15

A.

Say that again, sir?

16

Q.

I said, not only is any of that information we just covered

17

from Colonel Malone’s eval not in the C&A board’s evaluation or

18

recommendation, but, also, none of the lower custody factors are

19

checked, is that correct?

20
21
22
23

A.

Well if they don’t apply, sir, they’re not going to be

checked.
Q.

Well do you see other there where you might be able to

check that and put in perhaps inmate does not pose a risk to himself

5350

09243

1
2

or doesn’t require psychiatric care to mitigate the risk?
A.

I mean to be honest, sir, because we use that and -- I get

3

this and the eval together, I mean, they don’t -- it’s not there.

4

But, again, I still see the eval though.

5

still made aware of the eval.

6

Q.

And the board members are

Well can you explain to me then why the box is checked

7

where it says a mental evaluation indicating serious neurosis or

8

psychosis is checked?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] I know initially there were some

10

an -- anxiety issues, again, the gender issues.

11

based on, you know, information that was in there before.

12

with me coming on board and looking at -- you know, I just can’t look

13

at, okay, what’s on the plate today.

14

we had from Kuwait and try to review as much as I can and look

15

through all that stuff.

16
17
18

Q.

And, again, this was
So, again,

I need to see everything that

But at some point that was the case.

Well, yeah, but I -- I guess it’s not the case at the point

the eval is being done, right?
A.

Right.

But, again, those factors, sir, when they checked

19

those boxes, those are things based on something in the record or in

20

history that are checked as something that occurred in the past or

21

something that’s part of his records.

22

the eval, yes, it’ll put -- you know, he had his eval that day and we

23

have this.

So -- but, again, when we have

So, again, it’s not -- everything that Doctor Malone put

5351

09244

1

in his eval is not on this C&A worksheet.

2

it wasn’t discussed or that the board members weren’t briefed on it.

3
4

Q.

Okay.

But it does not mean that

Can you look at that 4 February 2011 C&A board?

[The witness did as directed.]

5

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay.

6

Q.

Now several of these same boxes are ticked this week; the

7

disruptive behavior, the low tolerance of frustration, the poor home

8

conditions, and the length of potential sentence, correct?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And this week again the board ticks the box a mental

11
12

evaluation indicating serious neurosis or psychosis, correct?
A.

Again -- but that was one that was done prior to him

13

getting to us.

14

say that they’re not talking about, you know, okay, Colonel Malone

15

just did one.

16

prior to that --

And that is part of his records, sir.

So when they

Again, there was some evaluation done in his record

17

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

18

A.

-- to -- to address those things.

19

Q.

Okay, and can you look to Colonel Malone’s 3 February eval?

20

[The witness did as directed.]

21

A.

[Looking through the documents] What date was that, sir?

22

Q.

3 February 2011.

23

[Pause]

5352

09245

1
2

MJ:

Mr. Coombs, my exhibit goes from the 28th of January and

the next one is the 18th of February.

3

WIT: And that’s why I said ----

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5

WIT: -- they may have lost them.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m sorry, yes.

It’s --

-- these are the ones where -- we didn’t

7

have them, but they went into the weekly reports.

8

your weekly reports that you did.

9

So if you go to

WIT: Is that in this one?

10

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

WIT: That’s okay.

Yes.

I apologize.

It just want to make sure I was looking for

12

the right thing.

13

[Pause while the witness looked through the document.]

14
15
16
17
18
19
20

Q.

And this would be part of Gunny Sergeant Blenis’

documentation to you.
A.

[Reading from the document] Okay, it’s dated 7 February, so

the period 2 February through 7 February, is that the ---CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Let me look through just to make sure

[looking through the documents with the witness].
WIT: Okay.

21

[Pause]

22

[The civilian defense counsel was looking through the documents with

23

the witness.]

5353

09246

1

WIT: Okay.

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

3

WIT: All right, sir.

4

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

6

Q.

That way I’m not standing over you.

Your Honor, Page 80 of 109.
Yes.

So if we’re looking at Page 80 of 109, do you see where it

7

says Colonel -- excuse me, current mental health evaluation -- it’s

8

in Echo?

9

A.

10

[Pause]

11

Q.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

So there it’s documented that Colonel Malone saw PFC

12

Manning on 3 February, and concluded that he did not believe that he

13

needed to be segregated from the general population from a

14

psychiatric perspective, correct?

15
16

A.

[Looking at the document] Right.

But one thing -- let me

clarify, sir --

17

Q.

Sure.

18

A.

-- because of the layout of the facility and because it was

19

pretrial, all inmates were housed in special quarters.

Okay, so when

20

they keep saying “general population” it’s kind of hard ‘cause

21

they’re all housed there.

22

people out in the dorms and special quarters was only for MAXs or

23

people on medical segregation or protective custody, then it would

So -- but prior to that, when we had

5354

09247

1

apply more.

2

everybody was housed in special quarters.

3

just maybe meaning, well, just being a MAX; I don’t know.

4

again, with general population, just so it’s kind of clear, all

5

inmates were housed in that single -- in a single cell in special

6

quarters, sir.

7
8

Q.

So then -- and I tried to convey that to him before that

Right.

So I don’t know if he was
But,

And he also indicates that PFC Manning was a low to

moderate risk of self-harm, correct?

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

And he says that PFC Manning -- anywhere in there does he

11

say that PFC Manning suffered from a serious neurosis or psychosis?

12

A.

No it did not say that, sir.

13

Q.

All right.

14

And then the board obviously on that week

determined PFC Manning should stay in MAX and POI?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And -- right.

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

If you could look to your 11 February 2011 report.

19

They recommended that.
And you approved of that recommendation?

excuse me, 11 February C&A board recommendation.

20

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

21

[Pause]

22

A.

Okay.

23

Q.

And here, again, the C&A board recommends keeping or

5355

Or,

09248

1

retaining PFC Manning in MAX and POI, correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And the same boxes are checked, except this week the box

4

saying a mental evaluation indicating serious neurosis or psychosis

5

is not checked?

6

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

7

Q.

Do you know why?

8

A.

I remember brief -- addressing this.

9

make sure that there is consistency.

And I said we need to

I know in the beginning when I

10

spoke to ‘em a lot of the boxes were checked were from -- especial

11

with that eval’ were from, you know, the information received from

12

Kuwait, which is -- which was exactly right at the time.

13

remember why they told me that changed -- if was, okay, ma’am, well

14

we know you’re aware of the background -- now you’ve been here and we

15

didn’t check it.

16

there were differences that I did address it with staff, sir.

I honestly don’t remember.

And I can’t

But I know once I saw

17

Q.

The differences -- what do you mean?

18

A.

When different boxes are checked.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

I mean, obviously if -- if -- again, if a situation

So you --

21

improved or something is absolutely no longer the case then, yes, I

22

don’t expect it to be checked.

23

far as consistency, these boxes that are checked, some of it was

But my thing is if we’re using -- as

5356

09249

1

based on the information we received from Kuwait.

2

decide -- we’re not going back and forth.

3

documented and they were right in checking those boxes.

4

when I noticed that, that’s something I brought to their attention.

5

Q.

All right.

So we need to

So those things were
But, again,

If you look down at the remarks section, this

6

time it’s handwritten, and I imagine this is written by the counselor

7

again?

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

9

Q.

[Reading from the document] And it says SND has previous

10

demonstrated suicidal ideations and gestures.

11

----

12
13
14
15

A.

[Looking through the documents] Wait a minute.

looking at this worksheet, sir?
Q.

And by this I imagine

Are we

Where’s that at?

This is for the 11 February -- do you see where that’s

written?

16

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

17

Q.

Now -- so it -- on the 11 February report it’s written

18

about a previous -- previous demonstrated suicidal ideations and

19

gestures, is that correct?

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And by this I imagine whoever wrote this meant what

22
23

happened in Kuwait 7 months earlier?
A.

I mean that’s more than likely what they would be referring

5357

09250

1
2

to, sir.
Q.

[Reading from the document] And then the remarks further

3

say that SND has made written and verbal comments indicating

4

potential suicidal action?

5

A.

[Looking at the document] Right.

6

Q.

[Reading from the document] SND has stated that previous

7

written and verbal statements may or may not be false.

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Right.

9

Q.

Is that right?

10

A.

That’s right, sir.

11

Q.

And let’s break that down just for a moment by; the written

12

comments are you meaning the always planning, never acting comment?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And by the verbal comments are you referring to the

15

comments made by PFC Manning on 21 January when he appeared before

16

the board?

17

A.

[Looking at the document] I would think that would be one

18

of the comments, sir.

19

just based on some of the questions I’ve asked and -- yes.

20
21
22
23

Q.

But, again, I’m not, you know, in there.

So between 21 January and 11 February, none of this is ever

annotated on a C&A board form.
A.

But

Do you know why?

Well, again, sir, you know, we have his book, and I’m sure

it could have been in the counselor notes.

5358

It’s also in the initial

09251

1

-- the inmate’s background summary that the counselor types up at

2

that first interview.

3

not appear in a C&A worksheet before doesn’t mean it wasn’t discussed

4

or that it’s not annotated.

5
6
7

Q.

So to be very honest with you, because it did

Do you know why the board would want to annotate it now as

opposed to the previous weeks?
A.

To be honest with you, sir, I don’t see that there’s some

8

motive or something that’s behind that to be very honest.

I mean, I

9

would have to look at all the C&A sheets, you know, from when he

10

first got confined obviously.

But, to be honest with you, sir, I

11

really don’t think it’s anything -- or, wait, let’s do this now for

12

some -- some -- something underhanded that was going on.

13

think so.

I don’t

14

Q.

Okay.

Can you turn to the 18 February 2011 report?

15

A.

[Looking at the documents] Sure.

16

Q.

Again, this is for the C&A board.

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

18

Q.

Now this week is essentially the same in that the boxes of

19

disruptive behavior, low tolerance of frustration, the poor home

20

conditions and family relationships, and length of potential sentence

21

is checked, right [reading from the document].

22

A.

Right.

23

Q.

And the disruptive behavior, again, is from the anxiety

5359

09252

1

attack the month earlier; 18 January 2011?

2

A.

Right.

3

Q.

And then there’s a new box that’s ticked -- and it’s one of

4

the other boxes, and it says potential mental disorders [reading from

5

the document].

Do you see that?

6

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir, I do.

7

Q.

And why is that checked?

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me just read the remarks.

9

Do you know?

you’ll give me a second, sir.

10

Q.

Sure.

11

A.

Thanks.

12

[Pause while the witness read the document.]

13

A.

14
15
16
17

If

I believe they were referring to the gender issue.

I know

there was an issue with anxiety and that kind of thing as well.
Q.

And do you know why they would be referring to the gender

issue at that point?
A.

I mean -- no, sir.

I don’t -- I don’t know, you know, I’m

18

just -- by my -- by what I see that’s -- those are the things that I

19

recall being discussed.

20

was on there.

21

is something again where I talked about, hey, I noticed that, you

22

know, things are not consistent when factors didn’t change.

23

addressed that.

But, again, I don’t -- I don’t know why it

It wasn’t on there afterwards.

5360

And, again, sir, this

And I

09253

1
2

Q.

Okay.

And going back to Enclosure 21 for Colonel Malone’s

report on that day --

3

A.

Okay.

4

Q.

-- the 18 February 2011, which the C&A board would look at.

5

Can you explain why when Colonel Malone on that day checks -- or

6

actually circles the box that says mental -- mental disorder is

7

resolved?

Do you see that?

8

A.

9

affirmative.]

10
11
12

Q.

[Looking at the document and responding in the

So if Colonel Malone is saying the mental disorder is

resolved, why would the C&A board check potential mental disorder?
A.

[Looking at the document] Again, sir, there were a couple

13

different ones.

14

know, which one in particular was resolved.

15

different issues.

16

things in details as that borderline HIPAA things.

17

it was something where they just -- we’re going to make stuff up, to

18

be honest with you.

19

though they were looking at him, evaluating him -- evaluating him

20

saying there’s nothing from a psychiatric standpoint, again, you

21

know, we’re seeing behaviors.

22

still no jiving.

23

Q.

So -- to be honest with you, I didn’t know, you
I know there are

And, again, we don’t really discuss those kinds of
But I don’t think

Because, again, like I explained before, even

And it’s like, okay, something here is

Please help us out.

Do you see where on Colonel Malone’s evaluation he puts the

5361

09254

1

risk of self-harm as low?

2

A.

That’s correct, sir.

3

Q.

And the risk for violence is low?

4

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

5

Q.

And given what Colonel Malone’s evaluation was, do you see

6

any reason why that potential mental disorder box would be checked

7

then?

8
9

A.

Again, sir, to be honest with you, that could have been one

of those things, again, when I addressed the inconsistences.

So, you

10

know, there were other issues.

11

you’re saying he’s checking low -- low risk of suicide or low risk

12

for violence, but you notice that there’s a box that does not say at

13

no risk.

14

Q.

15

report?

16

A.

21 February you said?

17

Q.

25 February.

18

A.

25.

19

Okay.

But, again, if you notice -- yeah,

Can you look to the 21 February 2011 C&A board

I’m sorry.

[The witness looked through the documents.]

20

WIT: Can we take a break after this question, sir?

21

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

22

WIT: Okay.

23

MJ:

All right.

We can take a break now if you’d like?

How long would you -- is 10 minutes sufficient?

5362

09255

1

WIT: Yes, ma’am.

2

MJ:

3

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

4

MJ:

Is 10 minutes sufficient for everybody else?
Yes, ma’am.

All right, court is in recess until 25 minutes until 5

5

o’clock or 1700.

6

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1624, 7 December 2012.]

7

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1639, 7 December

8

2012.]

9

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

10

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

11

again present in court.

12

Coombs, please proceed.

13
14
15
16
17
18

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

The witness is on the witness booth.

Mr.

Chief Barnes, I remind you you’re still

under oath.
WIT: That right, sir.
[Examination of the witness continued.]
Q.

If you would turn to Page 12 of 26 for Enclosure 32.

That

should be the 25 February 2011 C&A board report.

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

20

Q.

And this week the box dealing with assaultive behavior is

21

not ticked, is that correct?

22

A.

[Looking at the document] That’s correct, sir.

23

Q.

And the other box is the low tolerance of frustration, the

5363

09256

1

poor home conditions, the length of potential sentence, those are

2

still checked?

3
4

A.

[Looking at the document] Hold on a second, sir.

The low

tolerance and what other boxes, sir?

5

Q.

Poor home conditions --

6

A.

Right.

7

Q.

-- and length of potential sentence.

8

A.

Right.

9

Q.

And this week a new box is added; pattern of erratic

10

behavior?

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay, I see that.

12

Q.

And another new box is added; based on previous written

13

statements of suicidal ideations.

14

A.

Okay.

15

Q.

And let’s look at each of those.

With regards to the --

16

the pattern of erratic behavior, there’s not a notation, at least in

17

the note section, what that means.

18

A.

Do you know what that box meant?

Again, sir, some of this background information is based on

19

what we received from Kuwait.

20

different.

21

different on this.

22

person as before.

23

of the same information, sir.

But, again, this is somebody

You would notice that -- you know, the board members were
So on that day obviously it wasn’t the same
But most times they’ll capture -- it’s about most

5364

09257

1
2

Q.

But for -- from you as a commander approving of the board’s

recommendation --

3

A.

[Responding in the affirmative.]

4

Q.

Did you know what pattern of erratic behavior meant ‘cause

5

you said earlier anytime there’s a new box you would find out what

6

they meant by that?

7

A.

Well I mean I talked to them in general.

And I just -- and

8

I asked if I was thinking correctly referring to, you know, the stuff

9

in Kuwait and then the incident on 18 January.

10
11
12
13
14

Q.

Okay, and so the erratic behavior meant what to you, I’m

sorry?
A.

I mean that was just something considered.

It wasn’t one

thing that stood by itself.
Q.

Okay.

Now the previous statements of suicidal ideations,

15

they were presumably from the intake questionnaire about seven to

16

eight months earlier, is that right?

17
18

A.

Some of that was in -- again, from the paperwork we

received from Kuwait.

19

Q.

So even older?

20

A.

That’s correct, sir.

21
22
23

Again, we review everything we get

with the confinement and that’s part of the record.
Q.

But this is the first time that that annotation ever

appears on a C&A board review that you’re a part of, correct?

5365

09258

1
2

A.

documents].

3
4

Q.

All of them are right there, so you can go ahead and look

real fast.

5
6

I would have to go back and check, sir [looking through the

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

Well actually that

comment was on the one dated 28 January.

7

Q.

Which is that?

8

A.

[Reading from the document] You said previous demonstrated

9
10

suicidal ideations and gestures; that -- that’s the one you were
talking about, sir?

11

Q.

Right, previous statements of it.

12

A.

All right, but you’re saying something about the one on 25

13

February -- if I had -- if I heard you right, that being the first

14

one.

15

were in there as well.

But I was just making a point that on the 28th those comments

16

Q.

Previous ----

17

A.

I just wanted to make sure I understood you.

18

Q.

Yeah.

19
20

The -- on the -- on the January 1, it states

previous statements of suicidal ideations?
A.

[Reading from the document] It says as -- from the one on

21

the 28th; SND has previous demonstrated suicidal ideations and

22

gestures.

23

Q.

Right.

So statements -- the first time you’re talking

5366

09259

1
2
3
4
5

about any sort of statement is on this report though, correct?
A.

As far as me on the 20th ‘cause that’s the first one I did

after taking over, sir.
Q.

Now Colonel Malone, if you look at Enclosure 21 to

Appellate Exhibit 259, it should be Page 27 of 36 ----

6

A.

Okay, which enclosure are we looking at, sir?

7

Q.

It’s the mental health evaluations.

8

A.

Okay, and which dates?

9

Q.

Page 27 of 36.

10

A.

[Looking through the documents] Oh, 27 -- okay.

11

Q.

And you see where Colonel Malone says that PFC Manning does

12

not need to be segregated from the general population, again?

13

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

14

Q.

And he also states that he would only need routine

15

examinations in the future, is that correct?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And he states that PFC Manning was in entering full

18

remission on his anxiety disorder.

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Do you see on the C&A board where you made your handwritten

21

notation -- and I’m pretty sure I’m reading this correctly, but you

22

can correct me if I’m wrong -- does it say seems to be handling the

23

stressors in a better fashion?

5367

09260

1

A.

Yes, that’s what I put, sir.

2

Q.

And what did you mean by that?

3

A.

Again, that was early like a little bit after I took over.

4

And, again, his mood was better, communication was better, but,

5

again, in talking to him I know things happened before I took over.

6

It may have been more stressful for him, but just upon my

7

observations -- and his attitude -- he was a little bit more jovial,

8

again, during that timeframe.

9

made that comment.

10
11

Q.

So that’s -- that’s probably why I

All right, and so that carries us almost to the end of

February, would you agree?

12

A.

Right.

13

Q.

And so at least at that time period I -- from the

14

documentation it appears that you haven’t noticed a dramatic --

15

dramatic drop off in PFC Manning’s communication with you?

16

A.

17

change.

18

say, okay.

19

a look, okay, we maybe it just wasn’t an isolated thing.

20
21

Q.

Not really.

It wasn’t dramatic, sir.

I noticed some

But, again, for me -- if I see something one time I kind of
But then if I see the pattern, that’s when I kind of take

And based upon everything you saw there, you approved of

the board’s recommendation to keep him in MAX and POI?

22

A.

Right.

23

Q.

Now if you’ll turn to Page 13 of Enclosure 32, this is the

5368

09261

1

C&A board documents again.

2

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

3

Q.

The C&A board took place right after the 2 March incident

4

when PFC Manning’s clothing was taken away from him, correct?

5

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes.

6

Q.

And you chose to keep him in MAX and POI based upon, in

7
8
9

part, the board’s recommendations to you?
A.

[Looking at the document] Okay, if you notice, sir, Master

Sergeant Papakie signed.

10

Q.

11

form, right?

12

A.

13
14
15
16

I was absent that day.

That’s what I was going to ask you, you didn’t sign the

No, it says “for” -- it says “for” and Master Sergeant

Papakie signed in that -- in for me because I was out that day.
Q.

In my experience normally when someone signs for they get a

VOCO from the person they’re signing for.
A.

In this case, sir, no.

He’s a brig supervisor.

He’s my

17

senior enlisted advisor, and when I’m away, you know, he doesn’t call

18

me to see what do you want me to put or whatever.

19

if I was deployed he would not be able to contact me, sir.

20

mean, to be very honest, that’s one of the -- you know, the luxuries

21

of being the senior enlisted advisor -- you make decisions in my

22

absence as long as they’re just or fair.

23

thing where even with me signing for my boss, I don’t call him.

5369

I mean, obviously
So, I

But, again, that wasn’t a
You

09262

1

know, if it’s something that I know by his billet as the Inspector

2

General -- that is -- there’s no delegation to me then, yes, if he’s

3

-- if I’m able to contact him then that’s what I’ll do.

4

routine matters when I’m able to sign “for,” I do the same thing,

5

sir.

6

Q.

But in

All right, so if I’m understanding correctly, on 4 March it

7

was Master Sergeant Papakie who made the decision, and only Master

8

Sergeant Papakie, on approving the board’s recommendation?

9
10

A.

But he would follow-up either with a

conversation or, you know, an email or something like that.

11
12

That’s right.

Q.

All right, and if you turn to Page 28 of 36 for Colonel

Malone’s eval.

13

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay.

14

Q.

You see on 4 March, Colonel Malone found PFC Manning’s risk

15

assessment was stable and low, correct?

16

A.

[Looking at the document] Oh, yeah, he marked low for risk,

18

Q.

And also stable?

19

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay, down below risk

17

20
21
22
23

yes.

assessment -- stable; low, uh-hu.
Q.

And they he also said that PFC Manning’s anxiety disorder

was in remission again; see that?
A.

Yes.

5370

09263

1
2

Q.

And he indicates that PFC Manning does not need to be

segregated?

3

A.

Right.

4

Q.

And I guess, because you weren’t the decider; Master

5

Sergeant Papakie was, he decided to follow the board’s recommendation

6

to retain PFC Manning in MAX and POI?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

If you’ll turn back to the C&A board reports; Page 15 of

9

26, this should be the 11 March 2011 C&A board.

10

A.

[Looking at the documents] Okay.

11

Q.

And this week the following boxes are ticked; the low

12

tolerance of frustration, the poor home conditions, and length of

13

potential sentence.

Do you see that?

14

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And the same box saying patterns of erratic behavior;

16

that’s also checked?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And, again, from that you’re just assuming it’s -- it’s

19
20

some sort of behavior or something else?
A.

Well, it’s not assuming, sir.

I mentioned before when you

21

asked me the issues he had obviously in Kuwait and then the issue

22

before my watch on 18 January -- ‘cause that behavior, to be very

23

honest, is not really common, sir.

5371

09264

1

Q.

Okay, so it’s something that occurred six or seven months -

2

- well, actually at that point eight months ago, and then something

3

occurred in January 2011?

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

And Colonel Malone evaluated PFC Manning on 11 March.

6

A.

Okay.

7

Q.

If you’ll turn to Page 30 of 36 you’ll see that.

8

[The witness looked though the document.]

9

Q.

10

In Enclosure 21.

And he found PFC Manning’s anxiety

disorder remained in remission.

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

12

Q.

I that right?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And Colonel Malone also indicated that PFC Manning was a

15

low risk for suicide or self-harm?

16

A.

Right.

17

Q.

And this time you did approve and kept him in MAX and POI

18

still, right?

19

A.

I did, sir.

20

Q.

If you go back to the C&A board; Page 17 of 26, this is the

21

18 March.

22

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay, sir.

23

Q.

And this week the following boxes are ticked; low tolerance

5372

09265

1

of frustration, poor home conditions, length of potential sentence.

2

A.

Okay.

3

Q.

The same box, same patterns of erratic behavior?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And in the remarks section at the bottom it says [reading

6

from the document] SND’s behavior has become secluded from the

7

majority of the brig staff and the -- and the previous visitors.

8

you see that?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And do you know who wrote that?

11

A.

That was Master Sergeant Papakie, sir.

12
13
14

that day.
Q.

Do

Again, I was out

He signed “for.”
And in the comment section that’s attached to that; the DD

Form 2719 -- if you turn the page.

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

16

Q.

Do you see where it says [reading from the document] SND

17

has recently begun to isolate himself showing limited to no interest

18

in conversation with staff or his counselor?

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

20

Q.

All right.

I see it, sir.

And at this point on 18 March you’ve already

21

ordered PFC Manning to be surrendering his underwear at night,

22

correct?

23

A.

Right.

5373

09266

1
2

Q.

And at this point; 18 March, PFC Manning’s already required

to wear a suicide smock every night, correct?

3

A.

That’s correct, sir.

4

Q.

And this was due to his comment to Master Sergeant Papakie?

5

A.

Oh, yeah, again, but that was one factor.

6
7

And Headquarters

Marine Corps made the call to purchase those.
Q.

Right.

But he’s no longer given his underwear and is

8

wearing a suicide smock directly due to the fact he made a certain

9

comment to Master Sergeant Papakie?

10

A.

That’s correct, sir.

11

Q.

Any chance at this point that PFC Manning is isolating

12

himself due to the fact that he believes any statement he makes might

13

be misinterpreted and used against him by the brig staff?

14

A.

I mean it could be, sir.

But, again, if you don’t feel

15

like making comments to me or the brig staff, you have your command.

16

You have the request mast.

17

are covered when they go through the indoctrination phase.

18

know, honestly, sir, there’s so many avenues for redress that -- you

19

know, they just have to -- to do it.

20

advantage of it.

21
22
23

Q.

Right.

I mean -- and these are all things that
So, you

They just have to take

And then one of the other avenues he has is to talk

to his mental health eval -- professionals, correct?
A.

Well, I wouldn’t say for redress.

5374

If he has a problem --

09267

1

when I say that, sir, the avenues I’m talking about such as request

2

mast, using a DD Form 510 asking to speak to me, contacting his

3

command -- I’m just talking about problems in general in confinement

4

-- looking for redress in that case.

5

definitely to talk to Colonel Malone or whoever he wishes.

But, yes, he is entitled

6

Q.

Or even his attorney --

7

A.

Yeah.

8

Q.

-- to help him file maybe complaints?

9

A.

Absolutely.

10

Q.

Okay.

And you also note that PFC Manning requested to have

11

-- and you’ve testified on direct -- 18 names removed from his mail

12

and visitation list.

13
14
15
16
17

A.

I that correct?

I don’t recall the amounts, but I know it was -- I know it

was a fair amount that he removed.
Q.

And when you first heard about this you were concerned

about PFC Manning?
A.

I mean there were already issues there.

I think at the

18

time he was removed -- he removed those things it was after -- I mean

19

communication had already started to break down.

20

March and the events of that day.

21

that kind of made -- that kind of alerted me.

22
23

Q.

All right.

It was after 2

So that was just something else

And so you were concerned that he was removing

people and that meant something to you?

5375

09268

1

A.

I mean I don’t know if it’s just wanting to isolate himself

2

even from family.

3

recreation call, these are all things in my whole time in corrections

4

that I know from experience that prisoners always look forward to.

5

You know, if it’s raining outside, it’s like, hey, please have that

6

indoor rec call or that kind of things.

7

an eyebrow, sir.

8
9
10
11

Q.

Because, again, sir, mail and visitation,

All right.

But, yes, that made me raise

And how did you find out that PFC Manning

removed people from his visitation list?
A.

The mail clerk; he had mentioned something ‘cause he would

have to submit the 510 to the mail clerk.

12

Q.

All right ----

13

A.

And I believe the staff may have also said something to me.

14

Q.

I’m handing you Appellate Exhibit 441N [handing the

15

document to the witness].

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

Now this apparently is an email from -- initially from

18

Lance Corporal Sanford telling you on 16 March about what PFC Manning

19

has done, correct?

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes.

21

Q.

And after Lance Corporal Sanford emails you this, you

22

forward the information to Colonel Oltman among others, is that

23

right?

5376

09269

1

A.

I did, sir.

2

Q.

[Reading from the document] And your email reads, fyi, he

3

did fill out a 510, but was annoyed he had to update the list.

4

well.

Oh,

Is that what you wrote?

5

A.

I did write that, sir.

6

Q.

And that email doesn’t seem concerned about PFC Manning

7
8
9

removing people from his visitation list does it?
A.

No, that’s because we had talked and they wanted -- you

know, I just -- I had told them, hey, you know, I just have concerns

10

about it.

When I said, oh, well, I was referring to him being

11

annoyed that he had fill out the chit.

12

tried to explain to him on different occasions -- I tried to explain

13

that it’s important for us to have documentation.

14

oh, well, was not in response to anything but that.

15

response to him being annoyed that he had to go through the trouble.

16

‘Cause on the chit he has to say exactly who he wants to remove.

17

then on the mail and visitation form itself he makes those changes.

18

So that was -- you know, it wasn’t that I didn’t care -- you know, it

19

was common sometimes that Colonel Oltman would call me after an

20

email.

21

said, hey, you know, obviously we can’t tell him who to put on his

22

visitation’s or remove it.

23

though.

Because, again, I -- like I

So my comment of
It was just my

So I’m sure that we had discussed it, you know.

And

And I just

So -- but I do remember discussing that

5377

09270

1

Q.

Isn’t it true that PFC Manning was -- wasn’t allowed just

2

to remove people -- like two people.

3

everyone he wanted to and then place back on a separate list the

4

people he wanted to keep?

5
6

A.

He was required to remove

I believe on those sheets he may have crossed out --

because that sheet -- it covers the mail and visitation.

7

Q.

Right.

8

A.

So for some he did not want the visitation but he still

9

wanted mail.

So the mail clerk could have made him fill out another

10

form -- maybe if there was not enough room or you needed to make it a

11

little bit more clear.

12

that’s that detainee’s handwriting and those are the people -- it’s

13

not a think of him telling the guard, hey, Lance Corporal Sanford,

14

can you take this person off?

15

Q.

But with us, we just like to make sure that

Well wasn’t that why PFC Manning was annoyed ‘cause he had

16

to fill out a new 510?

17

fill out a new 510 form?

18

A.

We won’t do that.

He couldn’t just remove people; he had to

Well, again, sir, the 510s; these are requests for

19

everything, whether it’s to change a mail and visitation, get a

20

magazine prescription[sic], that -- that’s just the norm, sir.

21

again, that’s just for documentation so we can show, hey, an inmate

22

asked for this and we gave it to him.

23

visitation form is different than the DD Form 510.

5378

And,

But, again, the mail and
And that’s where

09271

1

their ad -- addresses and names and stuff would be located.

2
3

Q.

Right, but when he was removing people he was required to

basically update the entire form again then?

4

A.

Pretty much to make the changes that he wanted.

5

Q.

Okay.

And you were -- were you aware that the majority of

6

people that he removed were people who had never visited him to begin

7

with?

8
9
10
11

A.

To be very honest with you, sir, I didn’t concern myself

with that.
people.

I just concerned myself with why is he removing all these

I mean ----

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Yeah.

And I’m retrieving from the witness

12

what’s been marked Appellate Exhibit 441N [retrieving the document

13

from the witness], and handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441O

14

[handing the exhibit to the witness].

15

Q.

Isn’t the real reason you were concerned or the primary

16

reason you were concerned about the removal of the visitors was

17

because it may draw media attention?

18

A.

That was one of my concerns because what happens is if they

19

decide, hey, look, I don’t want visits from somebody, we don’t

20

contact that person and say, hey, he just took you off his list.

21

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

22

A.

So my concern was if one of those people showed up and

23

they’re told, hey, look, you cannot visit Manning, yes, I -- in my

5379

09272

1

mind I just had a concern that, you know, that would infuriate people

2

-- infuriate people because we’re not allowed to say, well, we’ll

3

make him put you back on.

4

Q.

Right.

And in particular you told Colonel Oltman that one

5

individual in particular you were concerned about; David House, when

6

he hears that he’s not on the list, you said, it will be on the blogs

7

very quickly.

8

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me read through all that.

9

Q.

Sure.

10

A.

Yep, I see it, sir.

11

Q.

And you see where you believe there PFC Manning’s removal

12

Do you see that?

of people from his list might actually be a setup of the brig?

13

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me read through it.

Yeah, I

14

said, [reading from the document] this weekend also coincides with

15

the planned protest.

16

and all other contingencies, the MPs call back to the brig to verify

17

who’s on the inmate’s visitation list.

18

I’m sure he’ll be -- it’ll be a dramatic event.

And it may be a setup because for all protests

Once he hears he’s not on it
And so ----

19

Q.

And why’d you think it would be a dramatic event?

20

A.

Well, for one, sir, House himself -- I know he visited a

21

lot.

So all of a sudden to be told he can’t visit I’m sure there

22

will be questions or it would be met with negative reaction.

23

know -- and the thing about it is when these things are put in the

5380

So, you

09273

1

media, of course, because we’re not going to violate PFC Manning’s

2

rights and speak out and say, well, did you know this is what really

3

happens?

4

those things where I’m saying, hey, look, it maybe something -- I

5

don’t know -- I don’t know for sure, but I’m not saying 100 percent

6

he did that on purpose to cause trouble.

7

things like this, you know of planned protests, you know that House

8

comes to visit a lot, and because we know we cannot allow him to

9

visit bec -- if he gets upset, but -- and because Manning said, no, I

We’re not going to do that.

So for me it was just one of

No.

Again, when you see

10

don’t want visits from him, I -- that was just me saying, hey, look

11

we’ve just got to be prepared if this things goes viral.

12

Q.

In fact, you believe that it would appear that Quantico

13

stopped David House’s visits for no good reason -- that’s what you

14

were concerned about, right?

15

A.

Right.

16

Q.

And nowhere in your communication with Colonel Oltman on 16

17

March do you express concern that the removal by PFC Manning of these

18

people might be a -- a psychiatric problem with PFC Manning, correct?

19

A.

No.

Again, I didn’t feel it could have been a psychiatric

20

thing, I just said maybe, for whatever reason, he’s not getting along

21

with his family -- he just wants to isolate himself more, not

22

necessarily, hey, this is a psychiatric issue.

23

Q.

Would it surprise you to know that of the people he removed

5381

09274

1
2

only three of them had actually visited him?
A.

Well, sir, I mean, honestly, I did not go through all that.

3

My concern was why remove all those people.

4

case, sir.

5

Q.

So maybe that was the

But if that were your concern; why remove all those people,

6

wouldn’t the natural thing to do would be to go to PFC Manning and

7

say why did you remove all these people?

8
9

A.

Yes I had a conversation with him, sir.

clear that I’m not forcing him to change his mind.

Again, I made it
I just let him

10

know that I noticed that because that’s me letting him know that I’m

11

communicating with the staff.

12

- and I said, is everything okay?

So, yes, that was brought up briefly Yes, ma’am.

And that was it.

13

Q.

So you didn’t ask him why he removed the 18 people?

14

A.

Again, sir, at that point knowing he was still very

15

agitated knowing that he did not like to be spoken to a lot, I just

16

said, hey, I noticed this.

17

ma’am.

18
19

Q.

Okay.

Is everything okay?

And he said, yes,

So you never found out from PFC Manning that only

three of the people ever visited him?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

Did you express concern to Colonel Malone about PFC Manning

22
23

removing names from his visitation list?
A.

Whoever the psychiatric was that came in after that, that’s

5382

09275

1

something I would discuss.

2

came in.

3

when I said I would kind of give them updates on things that -- that

4

was going on since the last visit.

5

look [looking through the document].

6

Q.

Obviously I’d have to look to see who

But things like that is what I was talking about before

So I would have to -- have to

Did you ever express concern or find out from Gunny

7

Sergeant Blenis whether or not PFC Manning had a reason to remove the

8

names?

9

A.

I mean it -- it was discussed, sir.

I mean -- obviously I

10

believe he was on -- on one of the emails, but -- and I can’t

11

remember.

12

weekly reports to kind of see if he talked to him and what he said

13

‘cause I don’t recall off the top of my head, sir.

14

[Pause]

15

Q.

16

I’d have to go through is counseling notes on one of the

Did you note that PFC Manning was still receiving visits

from family after removing people from his list?

17

A.

18

don’t recall.

19

Q.

20

Well, again, I would have to check, sir.

I don’t -- I

I would have to check and see.

Can you go ahead and turn to Enclosure -- full Enclosure 22

and turn to Page 96 of 109?

21

A.

[Looking through the documents] What page was that, sir?

22

Q.

Page 96 of 109.

23

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

5383

09276

1

Q.

2

period?

3

A.

Do you see if any family visited him during that time

[Looking at the document] He had personal visits.

But,

4

again, I would -- I’m not clear on the dates that -- when he took

5

those names off.

6

saying, yes, he had -- he had a personal visit.

7

I don’t know if that was before or after he chose to take those names

8

off, sir.

9

Q.

So that’s something I’d have to look at ‘cause it’s
But, again, that --

All right, if you turn to Page 99 of 109, do you see where

10

Gunny Sergeant Blenis in his counselor’s notes talks about the fact

11

he asked about why friends and family were removed?

12

A.

[Looking at the document] Right.

13

Q.

And what does he say about that?

14

A.

[Reading from the document] He said that SND stated that

15

the majority of the individuals have not written letters or visited,

16

so he removed them.

17

Q.

Okay.

And then obviously you -- you keep track of people

18

who come, and so we could just -- if you want, let’s go ahead and

19

look at Page 108 of 109, so it would be the second to the last page.

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

21

Q.

Does he have any visits from friends or family during that

22

time period?

23

A.

[Looking at the document] He had two personal visits, sir.

5384

09277

1

Q.

From family and friends?

2

A.

[Looking at the document] Well a friend and his aunt --

4

Q.

Okay, so that would be family and friends, correct?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Was PFC Manning removing people from his list that never

3

7
8
9

yes.

visited him a reason why you kept him on MAX and POI?
A.

Absolutely not, sir.

I mean the thing is, again, when that

happened it just kind of made me raise an eyebrow.

But that’s not a

10

factor to say, okay, because you don’t get visits from people --

11

friends or family, we’re going to make you a MAX.

12

Q.

Well, I guess what I’m getting at is once you found out

13

from Gunny Sergeant Blenis that the majority of the people that he

14

removed had never visited him, were you now, in addition to not being

15

concerned about the media interests, were you no longer concerned

16

about PFC Manning’s action of removing people?

17
18
19
20

A.

I don’t think I understand what you asked -- are you trying

to ask me, sir.
Q.

Sure.

Can you repeat the question, please?
Once you found out that PFC Manning removed people

from his list that never visited him --

21

A.

Okay.

22

Q.

-- were you then no longer concerned that this was a

23

potential sign of him going downhill and wanting to harm himself?

5385

09278

1

A.

I mean the concern was still there because of those people

2

had visited before.

3

not visit -- and that’s fine -- so I looked at that once I realized,

4

you know, okay, most of them did not visit, but, again, sir, some of

5

them visited and visited regularly.

6

still kind of, hum, but that’s his -- you know, it made me think.

7

But, again, that’s his choice.

8
9

Q.

All right.

So even though, yes, the majority of them did

I don’t -- you know, that’s

So I guess, if I understand your answer then,

it was still a concern that he removed people that had visited him?

10

A.

Right.

11

Q.

And did you address that concern with Colonel Malone?

12

A.

Again, sir, -- yeah, when he -- again, when he came in --

13

I’m pretty sure he may have been the provider -- but, yes, I just

14

said that.

But ----

15

Q.

And what did Colonel Malone say back to you then?

16

A.

To be honest with you, I don’t recall his response.

17

Sometimes with him, you know, I’d brief him on things, and he’ll just

18

say, oh, okay.

19

him a direct question seeking more knowledge.

20

exactly what he said, sir.

And that was typically his response unless I asked
But I don’t recall

21

Q.

And did you address the concern directly with PFC Manning?

22

A.

Again, sir, when I talked to him about it, I didn’t go into

23

detail.

I simply asked -- I let him know that I was aware that that

5386

09279

1

had took place.

2

yes.

3

you know, I just didn’t want to keep talking to him.

4

something that irritated him.

5
6

And I asked if everything was okay, and he told me,

He -- you know -- again, he didn’t go into details, sir, and,

Q.

Okay.

I know that’s

Now if you look at the mental health eval done by

Colonel Malone on 18 March.

7

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

8

Q.

Do you see that on that date he indicates that PFC Manning

9

did not need to be segregated?

10

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

11

Q.

Is that right?

12

A.

That’s right.

13

Q.

And that PFC Manning was a low risk of self-harm?

14

A.

That’s correct.

15

Q.

He also states that PFC Manning’s anxiety disorder remains

16

stable in remission?

17

A.

That’s correct, sir.

18

Q.

And despite that, based upon the board’s recommendation,

19

you kept PFC Manning in MAX and POI?

20

A.

That’s correct, sir.

21

Q.

There’s a box that -- it’s entitled or titled apparently

22
23

stable mental condition on the C&A board eval.
A.

Okay, which [looking through the documents] ----

5387

09280

1

Q.

So if you go to the C -- any C&A board eval.

2

A.

Okay.

3

Q.

Do you see that on the lower custody classification?

4

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes.

5

Q.

That box is never checked on any of these C&A board eval --

6

eval’s.

Do you know why?

7

MJ:

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9

Which box are you talking about?
The box, ma’am, that says apparently stable

mental condition --

10

MJ:

Okay.

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

MJ:

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

A.

-- it’s on ----

Got it.
Yes, ma’am.

[Looking at the document] To be honest, sir, the way we use

15

that sheet, if we were looking to reduce that custody from MAX to

16

medium in, then we would focus on -- the focus would shift to

17

lowering -- to the lower custody factors.

18

question because you’re saying, okay, that’s what the doc’ put, how

19

come you didn’t put that?

20

they’re mostly used for when you’re looking at reducing that custody.

21

So -- from MAX to medium in or for -- or something like that -- or

22

medium in to medium out; those factors would be relevant for them.

23

And that’s what they -- they’re being used for, sir.

So I understand your

But those factors are different because

5388

09281

1

Q.

Okay, so if I understand you correctly; if the -- if the

2

focus of the board is to try to reduce the person’s custody status

3

they will then check boxes on the lower -- on the custody factors

4

that would support a lower classification?

5

A.

It that’s -- if that’s what the counselor wanted, sir, yes.

6

Q.

And if the focus of the counselor is not to lower but to

7

maintain or even raise they would only check the boxes on the higher

8

classification --

9

A.

That applies to the higher --

10

Q.

-- custody classification?

11

A.

-- classification, sir.

12

Q.

So I guess my initial impression that you would check boxes

13

on both sides if they applied and then you would use that as how you

14

would weigh out your recommendation, that’s not how the process

15

worked?

16

A.

No, sir.

Again, if they’re recommending to lower that

17

custody then they check off as many factors on the lower custody side

18

as much as possible.

19

what I’ve observed and what I know, I recommend that they remain MAX,

20

you know, then they look at the factors that deal with why he should

21

be a MAX custody.

And if the counselor feels, hey, look, based on

22

Q.

But then he wouldn’t check any of the lower custody boxes?

23

A.

Not if he’s not putting him up for -- if he’s -- not if

5389

09282

1

he’s not recommending to be reduced from MAX to medium in, sir.

But,

2

again, these reports are briefed to the board.

3

of times when either the doc’s came really, really late or something

4

like that and they didn’t really -- may have gotten to read it ahead

5

of time, but for the most part, sir, that’s -- that’s how it worked.

There were a couple

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

[Looking through the documents] Yes, sir.

8

Q.

Okay, so on this week the same boxes are ticked again of

9
10

Can you turn to the 25 March 2011 C&A board report?

low tolerance of frustration, poor home conditions, length of
potential sentence, correct?

11

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And you have the same annotation about PFC Manning

13

isolating himself and also removing names from his visitation list,

14

correct?

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay, let me take a look at

16

something --

17

Q.

Sure.

18

A.

-- on the continuation sheet?

19

Q.

Sure.

20

[Pause while the witness looked at the document.]

21

MJ:

22

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

23

[Pause]

Which date are we on?
25 March 2011, ma’am.

5390

09283

1

A.

Yes, the note is here -- first beginning to isolate

2

himself, yes.

3

Q.

And also removing names from his visitation --

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

-- list?

6

A.

Right.

7

Q.

So this is after getting, I guess, the -- from Gunny

8

Sergeant Blenis the reason why PFC Manning removed people but it’s

9

still being placed down as apparently a concern by the C&A board, is

10

that correct?

11

A.

I mean, these are just notes, sir, again, for the board

12

members to consider.

13

on that list did not visit anyway.

14

something for the board members because, again -- because the board

15

members change from time to time, that’s one reason why you’ll see a

16

lot of the same notes on there.
All right.

He explained obviously that most of the people
But, again, this is just

17

Q.

Can you now turn to the 1 April C&A board

18

report?

19

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay.

20

Q.

Again, here the usual boxes are checked; the low tolerance

21

of frustration, poor home conditions, length of potential sentence,

22

right?

23

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

5391

09284

1
2

Q.

And a new box is added; broken down communication with

staff?

3

A.

Right.

4

Q.

In the remarks section it says [reading from the document]

5

SND has been very guarded with staff?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And then if you look at the continuation sheet it says that

8

[reading from the document] SND has -- or remains withdrawn and

9

continues to not engage in discussions.

SND has recently been

10

counseled about his attitude and conduct towards staff.

11

that?

Do you see

12

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And I know we haven’t covered this yet, and we will, but

14

I’d like to backtrack just for a moment to 2 March 2011, okay?

15

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay.

16

Q.

On that day PFC Manning was speaking with Master Sergeant

17

Papakie about his frustration with POI and MAX, correct?

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

And he made a comment about his underwear being something

20

that, if he wanted to, he could use to harm himself?

21
22
23

A.

About it being the most dangerous piece from what I recall,

Q.

Now fast forward to the 1 April, approximately a month

yeah.

5392

09285

1

later, the C&A board notes that PFC Manning is guarded with staff,

2

right?

3

A.

[Looking at the documents] Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And then you, in fact -- I believe it’s you -- write on the

5

C&A board [reading from the document] SND’s mood has been somber;

6

there is no detailed conversations as in the past; no light contact

7

lately; has not requested any special accommodations; and has not

8

been appearing before the C&A board to give input and make a

9

difference.

10

A.

Right.

11

Q.

Is that what you wrote?

12

A.

Yes, sir, it is.

13

Q.

And this is part of what you considered, obviously, in

14

making your ultimate determination to keep him in MAX and POI?

15

A.

Yes -- part of -- for those things listed there, yes, sir.

16

Q.

And you said you -- and we’ve previously covered -- you

17

remember distinctly one conversation where you had to tell PFC

18

Manning to be careful in how he was speaking to you because you were

19

a commissioned officer and his tone was slightly disrespectful?

20

A.

That’s correct, sir.

But I also told him -- I said, I

21

don’t carry things over.

You understand that you were disrespectful.

22

He said -- he acknowledged that.

23

the conversation went back to being normal.

He apologized.

5393

And from then on

So definitely it wasn’t

09286

1

a think of me attacking him and then being very short or -- or -- you

2

know, brash with him after that point.

3

clear to you.

4

Q.

And that’s fine.

So I want to make that very

But you did inform him that if he

5

continued to be disrespectful that that could wind up in a report

6

that could impact his ultimate sentence if he were to be found

7

guilty?

8

A.

9

I told him if he continues to be written up, whether it’s

disrespect or something else, I said, yes, all those things are

10

annotated.

11

have to put those things in there.

12

help him and let him know frustration; that’s an emotion I

13

understand.

14

I do have an issue with you raising your voice and being

15

disrespectful to me.

16

Q.

And if we’re requested to provide a progress report, we
So I, again, was just trying to

And I don’t have an issue with you being frustrated, but

Okay.

And when PFC Manning appeared before the C&A board

17

on 21 January, he made comments that ultimately used against him,

18

correct?

19
20
21
22
23

A.

Well, I wouldn’t go as far as to say used against him.

It

made the board members feel uneasy.
Q.

Well, he made -- okay, we’ll go with that then.

comments that made the board members feel uneasy -A.

Right.

5394

He made

09287

1

Q.

-- and obviously impacted their recommendation?

2

A.

I’m sure it did.

3

Q.

And when he appeared before the board on 25 February 2011,

4

and reiterated certain comments it was annotated that he didn’t bring

5

any new issues for the board -- that they didn’t already know?

6

A.

Right.

7

Q.

And you’re using now the fact that PFC Manning is guarded

8

with the staff as a factor -- in one -- all of the factors that

9

you’re considering when making the decision of MAX and POI?

10

A.

Yes, sir, decreased communication.

This is one of the

11

things, again, it’s no necessarily because it’s decreased

12

communication I’m making him or maintaining the MAX, sir.

13

whole POI and the getting him to provide honest open communication,

14

that is difficult when he is guarded; he’s not talking as much.

15

kind of difficult for us to achieve that -- that type of rapport.

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Again, the

It’s

Okay, I’m retrieving from the witness

17

Appellate Exhibit 441O and 441F [retrieving the documents from the

18

witness], and handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441H [handing the

19

document to the witness].

20
21
22
23

Q.

Now you note that communication has been degrading at PFC

Manning’s choosing, correct?
A.

[Looking at the document] Let me read the email, sir, to

make sure that that’s what I said.

5395

09288

1
2

Q.

Okay.

[Pause while the witness read the document.]

3

A.

Okay, yes, I see it.

4

Q.

All right.

And you’re obviously using the fact that he’s

5

choosing not to appear to the C -- in front of the C&A board as a

6

factor also keeping him in MAX and POI, correct?

7

A.

Well, I’m using that to show, hey, look, he’s not appearing

8

to say -- give clear communication -- honest communication to those

9

tough questions that they’re asking him.

So, again, that’s one of

10

the things I’m looking at to say, hey, look, he’s not using the

11

avenues that are before him to -- to express this is why I need to be

12

off of POI.

13

little frustrating to me because, for me, I wanted that

14

communication.

15

said, when I had him in my office without guards present, just

16

thought maybe a change of scenery -- that might, you know, get him to

17

open up.

18

sir.

19
20

Q.

So.

I mean, after a while for me it also became a

And I’ve told him that more than once.

Again, like I

But -- you know, again, it’s just everything put together,

Let’s look at the email that you have in front of you --

the email to Colonel Oltman.

21

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

22

Q.

In there you discuss some of the reasons you’re keeping PFC

23

Manning in MAX and POI for that week, correct?

5396

09289

1
2
3

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir, I was just briefing him

on -- on the board.
Q.

Yeah.

And you said that you spoke to Lieutenant Colonel Russell,

4

and your interpretation of his medical opinion was that “Basically

5

Manning is the reason why he’s still in POI.”

6

A.

That’s what he told me, sir.

7

Q.

And Lieutenant Colonel Russell also explained to you that

8

PFC Manning feels like whatever he says gets distorted or blown out

9

of proportion.

10
11

A.
email.

Do you remember that?

[Looking at the document] Let me read that part of the
One second, sir.

12

[Pause while the witness read the document.]

13

A.

I know that part that you’re referring to came up with me

14

as well again when we went back to filling out the voluntary

15

statements for him not wanting rec call.

16

could have been something that, you know, was -- in talking to him

17

that Lieutenant Colonel Russell could have said as well.

18

Q.

So -- but, again, that

Could the fact that PFC Manning felt that anything he said

19

or did got distorted or blown out of proportion explain why he became

20

very withdrawn to the staff and yourself?

21

A.

Well, I mean, sir, to be honest I didn’t see anything where

22

he made a statement that, you know, the guard twisted his words or

23

came in and briefed me differently.

5397

And, again, that’s one reason

09290

1

why every day more than -- on more than one occasion throughout the

2

day I would go down there, talk to detainees -- prisoners.

3

mean --

4

Q.

Well we’ll talk --

5

A.

-- I don’t ----

6

Q.

-- about the 2 March incident, but isn’t that an example

But -- I

7

where something he said might have been distorted or blown out of

8

proportion?

9

A.

Well, in his opinion, sir, he could feel like that.

But,

10

again, in a correctional facility comments like that cannot be taken

11

lightly when there’s a history of suicidal gestures or ideations, you

12

know.

13

certainly, sir, he could feel like, well, you know it, I’m just not

14

going to say anything now because I made a comment, it was sarcastic

15

and now this is where it lands me.

16

given everything I knew in his history, I just couldn’t take it

17

lightly.

And when we see such big changes in behavior -- so --

But, again, my responsibility

18

Q.

If you could now look at the 8 April C&A board report.

19

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay, sir.

20

Q.

The following boxes are ticked here; low tolerance of

21

frustration, poor home conditions --

22

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

23

Q.

-- and the length of potential sentence, that’s not checked

5398

09291

1

right?

2

A.

[Looking at the document] No, sir, I don’t see that.

3

Q.

That was probably an oversight?

4

A.

And innocent mistake I would say, sir, because, again, his

5

charges had not changed to where it was very different -- maybe to

6

something much lower like 86 or 92.

7

checked.

8
9

Q.

So that box should have been

And there’s still a handwritten box that says broken down

communication with staff?

10

A.

Okay, sir.

11

Q.

And who signs for this one?

12

A.

There’s not a signature there, sir, but I’m pretty sure I

13

was on leave.

14

sheets.

15

Q.

So there’s no

16

A.

-- to be very honest --

17

Q.

-- signature at all on that one?

18

A.

What’s that?

19

Q.

Is there a signature at all for the approval?

20

A.

Not on the bottom block where my box is, sir, no.

21

Q.

And I guess that would be a-typical, right?

22

A.

Very, sir, ‘cause, again, every other one either had my

23

Every day that I was at work I signed those C&A

And --

signature of Master Sergeant Papakie’s.

5399

But, again, I recall being

09292

1

on leave quite a bit last year.

2

out.

3

Q.

So it could have been when I was

Now going back to your -- do you recall actually talk --

4

talking with Colonel Oltman about the fact that there’s been no

5

positive change in terms of interaction with brig staff and PFC

6

Manning?

7

A.

I recall some conversations.

But, again, you know, that

8

was just me keeping my chain informed of what’s going on.

9

I do recall just saying to him, you know, this is still occurring,

10
11

But, yeah,

and we’re just trying to get him engaged.
Q.

Okay.

And do you recall -- with him -- at least telling

12

Colonel Oltman that PFC Manning did interact well with chasers but --

13

people who took him out but not with the brig staff?

14

A.

Yes, sir, I believe that was one of the points I raised is

15

that the psychiatrist -- I don’t know -- other people who will come

16

in -- you know, I noticed that there would be a difference -- one of

17

the things I used to do was question the chasers just to make sure,

18

hey, did you guys feed him chow on time?

19

when he was being transported -- that kind of thing.

20

also ask Manning himself the next time I would see him or whatever

21

the case is.

22

was good.

23

anything.

Where there any problems
And I would

But it was noted that from the chasers that everything

He wasn’t -- you know, wasn’t really quiet or withdrawn or

5400

09293

1

Q.

All right.

So other than the brig staff, you saw it with

2

the forensic psychiatrist and with people who were taking him out for

3

meetings, probably with myself, that he was talkative with them?

4

A.

Well, I didn’t obviously see it -- I didn’t go with him on

5

those runs.

But just, again, in talking to ‘em just to find out,

6

hey, how have things been going?

7

his chow on time; that kind of thing?

8

everything’s good.

9

needs.

Is everything good?

Is he getting

They would say, yeah,

You know, he speaks up; he lets us know what he

10

Q.

Can you look at the 15 April C&A report?

11

A.

[Looking through the document] Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And you see there, again, back to the usual boxes of low

13

tolerance of frustration, poor home conditions, and length of

14

potential sentence, correct?

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And you write in your remarks [reading from the document]

17

SND remains guarded.

Spoke with SND on the 11th of Mar -- of April

18

regarding being more open and engaging in communication in efforts to

19

adjust handling, but no change has been seen.

20

me about coming off of POI, although I explained what he needed to do

21

so -- or needed --

22

A.

Needs to do, yeah.

23

Q.

-- needs to do, right?

5401

SND has not spoken to

09294

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

And by saying what he needs to do you mean to speak open

3
4

and honestly with you to convince you that he shouldn’t be on POI?
A.

That’s right.

And even his counselors, not just me.

I

5

tried telling him, hey, look -- ‘cause normally prisoners -- they’ll

6

find somebody to cling to.

7

supervisor they like.

8

they know the big role that the counselors play.

9

told him what he needed to do in terms of his interactions with me

10
11
12

It might be a particular duty brig

Most times it’s a counselor though because
But, you know, I

and the staff alike.
Q.

And speaking of the counselor; if you’d turn the page --

the DD Form 2719 --

13

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay.

14

Q.

-- do you see where it states there that -- with regards to

15

his counselor he’s been “More open to discussion this week and

16

appeared to be a good mood.

17

comfortable when speaking.”

He was calm and relaxed and seemed very

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

Do you see that?

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And you told the defense that at the end of the day you

22

didn’t care if he opened up to the brig staff, but PFC Manning had to

23

keep open lines of communication with two people; that would be

5402

09295

1
2

yourself and with the counselor, is that right?
A.

I don’t recall saying that.

I know I said, hey, look, the

3

role of a counselor is very different than the guards that are

4

actually posted in special quarters.

5

not like everybody or have the greatest relationship, but at least --

6

yes, his counselor and myself.

7

or implying that, well, screw the rest of the guards, only speak to

8

your counselor or me -- because, again, his counselor’s not at work

9

24 hours a day, and we get a lot of feedback from the security

And that, you know, he might

But, again, by no means was I saying

10

section.

So -- but I did remember saying of all the -- of the two

11

people that can advocate and really make positive changes for him --

12

those would be the two.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

MJ:

Who would be the two?

15

WIT: The counselor and myself, ma’am.

16

Q.

17

All right, I want to talk now specifically about what

happened on 2 March 2011, okay?

18

A.

Okay, sir.

19

Q.

Now on that day Master Sergeant Papakie was talking to PFC

20

Manning, is that right?

21

A.

That’s right, sir.

22

Q.

And PFC Manning, as we covered, expressed frustration with

23

his current conditions?

5403

09296

1

A.

Right.

2

Q.

And he told Master Sergeant Papakie that the restrictions

3

were absurd, and that if he wanted to harm himself the most dangerous

4

thing he had was perhaps the elastic in his underwear?

5

A.

Or words to that effect, sir.

6

Q.

And you were told that PFC Manning was smiling when he said

7

this, right?

8

A.

Well, like smiling or smirking -- something like that.

9

Q.

And your response was to order his underwear to be removed

10

at night after that, correct?

11

A.

That’s correct, sir.

12

Q.

Now you didn’t order him onto suicide risk status, right?

13

A.

That’s correct.

14

Q.

And that -- if you did do that it would have required a

15

doctor and the doctor’s concurrence to keep him there?

16

A.

On that status of SR, that’s correct.

17

Q.

Instead you increased the special handling instructions

18

under POI, is that right?

19

A.

Yes, sir, I made that adjustment, yes.

20

Q.

And if you had ordered PFC Manning to SR on 3 March and

21

Colonel Malone recommended only POI on 3 March then you would have

22

had to have taken PFC Manning off of SR on 3 March?

23

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5404

09297

1

Q.

Now from your standpoint as a brig OIC, what is your

2

understanding on how long you can wait to take somebody off of

3

suicide watch if the doctor tells you he doesn’t need to be on

4

suicide watch?

5

A.

I mean, there’s no timeframe.

They tell you that you

6

should take the person off, but me personally, I do it the -- if the

7

day the doctor says it, I would do it.

8

Q.

Yeah ----

9

A.

But, again, that’s just me.

10

Q.

And don’t they -- doesn’t the SECNAV actually say the words

11
12
13
14

“shall be taken off”?
A.

I think it says shall be returned to quarters or something

like that.
Q.

Okay.

And so from your interpretation -- and this is on

15

Page 106 of 388 -- that’s right here [pointing to the documents in

16

the witnesses’ possession].

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Oh, okay.

18

Q.

And I’m showing you Enclosure 47 of Appellate Exhibit 258.

19

A.

All right.

20

Q.

For your interpretation of when it says [reading from the

21

document] when prisoners are no longer considered to be a suicide

22

risk by medical officers they shall be returned to appropriate

23

quarters.

Would you do that the same day?

5405

09298

1

A.

I would, sir.

2

Q.

And why?

3

A.

Again, you know, for one, he has to be removed.

But I

4

would just do it because, again, the doctor says he’s not suicidal;

5

he needs to be removed.

6

-- comes with, you know, a lot of extra -- the extra requirements,

7

you know, guards sitting in front of your cell; that kind of thing.

8

And for anybody, whether you’re in confinement or not, somebody

9

sitting there all day watching you is unsettling.

Because we clearly understand that, you know

10

Q.

Right.

11

A.

So for me, I would not -- I would do it right away.

12

Q.

Now have you ever had an instance where the doctor has said

13

the detainee is not a suicide risk but you felt the detainee was and

14

you kept him on suicide risk?

15

A.

I haven’t had that in my experience, sir, to be honest with

17

Q.

Have you ever seen that in your 16 plus years?

18

A.

It’s hard to say because sometimes at the level where they

16

you.

19

are a CO, you know, and dependent on what my rank was at the time and

20

what my jobs where, that’s not something I would have -- you know

21

what I mean --

22

Q.

Right.

23

A.

-- readily available unless I was actually that dorm

5406

09299

1

supervisor or something, but to be very honest to go back and say for

2

sure -- I would not sit here and say that it has never been done, but

3

I just don’t know for myself.

4

experience, no.

5
6

Q.

Okay.

But I just know from my personal

Now Colonel Malone, as we know, evaluated PFC

Manning on 4 March --

7

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

8

Q.

-- and he concluded that PFC Manning’s statement about the

9

underwear was not due to a mental disorder, is that correct?

10

A.

Right.

11

Q.

He actually concluded that the statement did not mean he

12

wanted to commit suicide, but was rather part of his process of

13

intellectualizing the conditions of confinement that he was in,

14

right?

15

A.

He may have said that, sir.

16

Q.

Well, you received Colonel Malone’s evaluation, correct?

17

A.

[Looking through the documents] Okay, but that actual

18

comment is not on this.

19

discussing it, sir.

20

saying that --

I’d have to look at it.

He may have -- but I do remember him

It’s not here, but I do remember -- remember him

21

Q.

All right, and --

22

A.

-- or something along those lines.

23

Q.

-- and when Colonel Malone said that to you then did that

5407

09300

1

cause you to be less concerned about the underwear statement?

2

A.

No, sir.

And this is why -- and, again, it’s just a

3

difference between Colonel Malone and myself.

The thing about it is,

4

you know, if you had already by going on the C&A board looking at the

5

statements you wrote on your intake form, if you already know that

6

these are things that concern us -- I mean -- you know, making that

7

comment, whether it was to intellectualize something or just whether

8

it was sarcasm, whatever the case is, again, with everything we have

9

to look at, I just cannot take that lightly.

And I -- you know,

10

again, when I speak to Doctor Malone or even Doctor Russell, they

11

understand my concerns.

12

this comment means this.

13

Q.

I mean, obviously I’m not trained to say
Or this is what he meant by that comment.

But did Colonel Malone’s professional opinion that this

14

comment wasn’t a statement to harm himself, did that at all comfort

15

you?

16

A.

I mean to be honest, sir, no really.

Because the point I

17

try to drive home to these providers is that when you see them on

18

that one day, you make that determination on that one day.

19

Unfortunately for us we don’t just do things in snapshots of time.

20

We look at totality.

21

look at behavior; that kind of thing.

22

disrespecting him or gaffing him off, sir.

23

those points just trying to get past, okay, if you like to

We look at the information in the book.

5408

We

So it’s not that I was
Again, that was one of

09301

1

intellectualize things, please find a different way to do it because

2

it doesn’t make me feel comfortable.

3

Q.

And can you reconcile then for me your previous testimony

4

and also in your email where you said that people who are going to

5

harm themselves are not going to tell you how they’re going to do it?

6
7
8
9

A.

I may have said something to that effect; they’re not going

to come out and say, hey, I want to kill myself.
Q.

Right.

So if someone’s not going to tell you how they’re

going to do it or they’re going to harm themselves, then why wouldn’t

10

you look at this statement and say that he’s not really telling us

11

he’s going to harm himself with it -- that people don’t do that?

12

A.

Sir, again, I look at he said -- you know, if he wanted to,

13

he could have.

14

that thought crossed his mind a time or two.

15

you’re getting at, but at the end of the day, yes, he -- remember he

16

did not come out and say I am going to hurt myself or kill myself

17

with the waistband in my underwear.

18

well, if I really wanted to do it, I could do it again.

19

-- because at that very second -- I didn’t speak to Colonel Malone --

20

I don’t know that he’s -- okay, that’s how he intellectualizes with

21

himself or whatever the case is.

22
23

Q.

So the way I kind of looked at it, you know, maybe
I mean, I see what

But, again, just that notion of,
At that time

Okay, did there come a time though where maybe after the

first week or the second week or even the third week where you’re

5409

09302

1

removing the underwear nightly that you said maybe I don’t have to do

2

this anymore?

3

A.

Well, again, sir, had I see positive changes -- if I would

4

have seen something different, if he was speaking to me.

5

open to that.

6

again, when I expressed, hey, you need to let me know what’s going

7

on, whether you -- you -- you want to submit a DD Form 510, or

8

whatever the case.

9

he could have went above my head, sir, or to his command.

Yes, I was

I told Manning that on more than one occasion.

So,

And certainly if his conditions were that harsh,
And by all

10

means, I welcome anybody come into the brig to take a look for

11

themselves.

But ----

12

Q.

He did file a 138 complaint about it, right?

13

A.

Right.

But, again, that was, you know, kind of -- that

14

wasn’t right away when again it was frustration and a breakdown in

15

communication.

16

with me was in reference to the issue on 2 March.

17

problems that he had before that that I was not aware of was not

18

brought to my attention as far as him telling the command.

19
20
21

Q.

Yes, when -- he filed different ones, but the one
But, again, any

Now Captain Haberland contacted you on that day that you

decided to remove PFC Manning’s underwear, correct?
A.

I don’t know if it was that day.

22

could have been that day or the next day.

23

to him, sir.

5410

I can’t remember.

It

But I do remember talking

09303

1
2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

441P [handing the document to the witness].

3

WIT: Okay.

4

Q.

5

I’m showing the witness what has been marked

And Captain Haberland at the time was one of the trial

counsel for the case, correct?

6

A.

Yes, sir, he was.

7

Q.

And on that day he -- he said that he heard that you put

8

PFC Manning on suicide watch?

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

And you indicated that no you didn’t -- you didn’t put him

11

on suicide watch?

12

A.

That’s right.

13

Q.

At that point you didn’t tell Captain Haberland initially

14

about your order to remove PFC Manning’s underwear though, right?

15
16

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me take a look at the email,

sir.

17

[Pause]

18

A.

19

discuss that.

20

Q.

Not initially, sir, but in the other email traffic I did

Yeah, and it was only after Captain Haberland said he heard

21

that PFC Manning’s underwear was removed that you told him about

22

that, correct?

23

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5411

09304

1

Q.

And you said in summary, PFC Manning stated he did not

2

understand the POI status since he gets to keep his underwear with

3

the waistband, which is the most dangerous piece?

4

A.

Right.

5

Q.

And you also said in my opinion this means he at least

6

thought about it?

7

A.

Right.

8

Q.

And you further said that it’s very easy for me to defend

9

my position on this matter than to explain a suicide or an attempt?

10

A.

That’s correct, sir.

11

Q.

Now on 4 March 2011, Colonel Oltman asks you to synopsize

12

the rationale for your decision, correct?

13

A.

I do recall that, sir.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

And I want to again just highlight what you

15

wrote at least on March 17th, so I’m handing you Appellate Exhibit

16

441L [handing the document to the witness].

17

WIT: Okay.

18

Q.

And on March 17th, again, you noted in your email to

19

Colonel Oltman “It goes back to what I have been saying, anyone who

20

wants to kill themselves will not give signs or do a memo for

21

everyone to see.”

22

A.

Right.

23

Q.

See that?

5412

09305

1

A.

That’s right, sir.

2

Q.

And by this I imagine what you meant is that detainees

3

don’t tell you that they’re going to commit suicide?

4

A.

That’s right, sir.

5

Q.

And they don’t tell you how they’re going to commit

6

suicide?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

Even though you’ve been saying this to everybody and you

9

believe that -- and at least in this instance that when PFC Manning

10

made his comment about his underwear, he was at least thinking about

11

committing suicide?

12
13
14

A.

And that’s -- that he may have thought about it, sir.

And

that’s just my opinion.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right.

I’m retrieving from the witness

15

Appellate Exhibit 441L and 441P [retrieving the documents from the

16

witness].

17
18

Q.

I want to talk to you now just real briefly about the

SECNAV instruction, okay?

19

A.

Okay, sir.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m going to hand to you Appellate Exhibit

21

47 -- excuse me, AE 47 -- Enclosure 47, sorry, of AE 259.

22

Page 105 of 388 [handing the document to the witness].

23

WIT: [Looking through the document] Okay.

5413

And it’s

09306

1
2

Q.

Now you cited to Colonel Oltman the provision you believe

gave you the authority to remove PFC Manning’s underwear, correct?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And the provision you cited was the provision under 5(B),

5

is that correct?

6

A.

As far as the authority to remove his underwear?

7

believe that’s covered in (D)[sic].

8

the next page -- yes.

9

of the prisoner’s clothing when deemed necessary.

10
11

Q.

I don’t

Let me double-check -- oh, on

[Reading from the document] May direct removal

And that was the provision that you used as your authority

to do what you were going to do, right?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

Now there’s -- in this section there are Sections A, C and

14

D as well, correct?

15

A.

[Looking at the document] A, B and -- yes, sir.

16

Q.

And all these sections are under the heading of Suicide

18

A.

Yes, sir.

19

Q.

So Section B applies when you’re dealing with a suicide

17

20

Risk?

risk, correct?

21

A.

[Looking through the document] Yes, sir.

22

Q.

So, in fact, the first sentence of Section B says, which

23

you cite, is [reading from the document] prisoners who have

5414

09307

1

threatened suicide or have made a suicidal gesture but who are found

2

fit for confinement may be placed in a category of suicide risk or

3

observation, correct?

4

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5

Q.

And all the stuff that follows deals with prisoners who

6

have been placed in the category of suicide risk?

7

A.

That’s correct, sir.

8

Q.

The authority to remove clothing comes under the category

9
10

of suicide risk?
A.

Right.

But it also -- there’s another part of the SECNAV

11

where they talk about POI and it again mentions that.

12

just exclusive only on SR.

So it’s not

13

Q.

The authority that you cited was this provision.

14

A.

Yes, that I may direct removal of the clothing, yeah.

15

Q.

So that was the authority you were relying upon under the

16

SECNAV?

17

A.

Under the SECNAV instruction, yes, sir.

18

Q.

Do you remember receiving an email from CW5 Galaviz asking

19
20
21
22
23

you questions about the decision to remove PFC Manning’s underwear?
A.

I believe that was in a phone call, sir.

him emailing me directly.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I don’t recall

I’d have to take a look.
I’m handing you Appellate Exhibit 441K

[handing the document to the witness].

5415

09308

1

Q.

Do you see that?

2

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And that is an email from CW5 Galaviz to you, correct?

4

A.

That’s correct, sir.

5

MJ:

This is 441 what?

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

Q.

Quebec.

I’m sorry.

And in this email Chief Galaviz is talking to you about the

8

fact that he saw an Early Bird article, and he wants to find out

9

about the removal of the underwear, is that right?

10
11

A.

Right.

[Reading from the document] For either Master

Sergeant or myself to give him a buzz, yes, sir.

12

Q.

And did you speak with him?

13

A.

I did, sir.

14

Q.

And what’d you tell him?

15

A.

Well, when he asked me about it, sir, I pretty much

16

explained to him, yes, those reports are true.

17

about it is based on everything I have; his history -- everything I

18

looked at, I could not take that comment lightly.

19

going to kill myself?

20

do something in his cell like that time?

21

for me taking that comment with the history that he has, I just did

22

not feel that that was something that could go unnoticed.

23

explained that to him -- I said for me -- I know what -- with --

No.

I said the thing

Now did he say I’m

He made a suicidal gesture like trying to

5416

No he did not.

So, again,

And I

09309

1

people automatically kind of play taking the underwear -- they

2

automatically line that up with SR.

3

mentioned somewhere else in the SECNAV as well where clothing can be

4

removed at any -- when deemed necessary.

5

not feel like, you know, his underwear should be taken all day.

6

mean at night obviously; reduced visibility, less staff up, these

7

were the things I was thinking about when I did that.

8

that to him.

9

threaten -- to me he didn’t say well I’m going to kill myself or make

10
11
12

But, again, in POI -- it’s

But, again, for me I did
I

So I explained

And I just explained that at that time he didn’t

a suicidal gesture.
Q.

Okay.

And then do you recall Lieutenant Colonel Wright

sending an email to Colonel Oltman about the matter?

13

A.

Yes, sir, I recall that.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness 441Q

15

[retrieving the document from the witness], and handing the witness

16

Appellate Exhibit 441R [handing the document to the witness].

17

WIT: Okay.

18

Q.

Now Lieutenant Colonel Wright sent an email saying

19

basically that you’re not allowed to remove underwear unless you put

20

someone in suicide risk, is that right?

21
22
23

A.

[Looking at the document] He said they -- to take --

roughly that’s what he’s saying, sir.
Q.

And you didn’t agree with that interpretation though,

5417

09310

1

correct?

2

A.

I had a difference of opinion, sir.

3

Q.

And, in fact, after you received Colonel Malone’s report

4

saying that PFC Manning’s comment did not mean he would commit

5

suicide, you pointed out, at least in your mind, the wisdom of your

6

approach to Master Sergeant Papakie.

Do you remember that?

7

A.

I pointed out what?

8

Q.

The wisdom of your approach of just simply taking the

9
10
11
12

Say that again, please, sir?

underwear from PFC Manning but not placing him in suicide risk?
A.

Yes, that was something that I discussed with Master

Sergeant Papakie and Master Sergeant Blenis.
Q.

Right.

And that’s because looking at Colonel Wright’s

13

email he believed that the way you did business was if you’re going

14

to remove clothing you need to have the guy in suicide risk?

15

A.

Okay, sir.

But here’s the difference and here’s why that

16

needs to be looked at in a different light.

17

be very honest, in corrections I’ve seen it done both ways with SR;

18

some COs will still let them have their underwear and two blankets,

19

some COs won’t.

20

training or pattern -- I don’t know if you realize this, but for

21

corrections officers there’s no formal school after you complete the

22

basic warrant officer course.

23

expertise we have that’s derived from working with seniors and seeing

That’s one thing.

For one thing, sir, to

The other thing is there’s no set

So a lot of the experience and

5418

09311

1

how brigs are run.

You know, there’s some calls, you know, maybe a

2

previous decision you may not have made.

3

a difference of professional opinion, that occurs on a regular basis.

4

It’s just like, you know, they bought us brand new vans to transport

5

the prisoners in without seatbelts.

6

that.

7

prisoner is not going to enter that van and be transported anywhere

8

until seatbelts are -- are installed.

9

things, sir, like anybody else, I just honestly think sometimes

But to be very honest, sir,

I had a difference of opinion on

When those vans were delivered, I made it very clear a

So professional opinions on

10

people disagree on certain things.

11

just knowing that in some facilities COs have allowed them to have

12

underwear and the blanket, or no underwear and a blanket.

13

-- that had went both ways before.

14
15

Q.

And, again, from my experience

I honestly

But in this case the person that’s disagreeing with you is

up at PSL, correct?

16

A.

That’s correct, sir.

17

Q.

And that person is basically the proponent of SECNAV

18

Instruction 1640.9(c), correct?

19

A.

You could say that, sir, yeah.

20

Q.

Well, not only can you say that -- they are the proponent,

21

right?

22

A.

Well, again, sir, yes.

23

Q.

And they’re telling you that this is not the way you’re

5419

09312

1
2

supposed to do business?
A.

Well, again, sir, he expressed his own opinion that it’s

3

inconsistent with how they do business.

4

honest, the whole suicide thing, again, from my experience, does --

5

you’re on SR so that means you don’t get to have your underwear.

6

have done it differently, sir.

7
8
9

Q.

But, again, sir, to be very

COs

Did you call up Colonel Wright and say, look, I have a

difference of opinion with you, sir, I don’t believe you’re right?
A.

Well, no, sir.

For one, they’re not in my chain of

10

command.

The brig’s no longer -- and you probably didn’t know this;

11

the brig’s no longer belong to Headquarters Marine Corps, they belong

12

to the base commander.

13

with Colonel Oltman -- and I’m sure he might have briefed Colonel

14

Choike, you know, it’s really not my place to say, hey, sir, we

15

disagree.

16

some -- a professional opinion.

17

again, well, the day that I made that decision Colonel Oltman was in

18

the loop that day.

I called him -- I let him know -- so this was not

19

a surprise to him.

It’s just at the end of the day with briefing

20

things real quick -- he just wanted to make sure that he captured

21

those points very well.

22

Wright, but it’s not common that I would speak to Chief Warrant

23

Officer Galaviz’s boss.

So when I expressed my difference of opinion

He just felt -- let me go to her supervisor -- provide
And that’s what he did.

Because --

So he may have talked to Lieutenant Colonel

5420

09313

1

Q.

Right.

And in this instance because you didn’t have to

2

answer to Lieutenant Colonel Wright, the only person you had to worry

3

about would be Colonel Oltman or Colonel Choike, is that right?

4

A.

I mean I wouldn’t phrase it like that; the only people I

5

had to worry about.

6

-- you know, Lieutenant Colonel Wright himself did not call me or

7

email me directly.

8

my boss.

9

other issues.

10
11

Again, I just followed my chain of command -- he

I would have answered his email and still cc’ed

But the way that kind of worked, sir, is -- with that and
Lieutenant Colonel Wright has an issue, he contacted

Colonel Oltman.
Q.

All right, and you see where you respond to Colonel Oltman

12

after he’s asking you to synopsize your rationale.

That’s where you

13

breakdown your rationale for your decision, is that right?

14

A.

Right.

15

Q.

And that’s also where you cite your authority for your

16

position?

17

A.

That’s correct.

18

MJ:

Yes, Major Fein?

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

20

Your Honor, just at some point could we just have

a 10 minute comfort break?

21

MJ:

Okay.

22

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

23

MJ:

Okay.

Do you want to finish your line of questioning?
Yes, ma’am.

Go ahead.

And then ----

We’ll do that after that.

5421

09314

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right, I’m showing you Appellate Exhibit

2

441S [handing the document to the witness], and retrieving from you

3

Appellate Exhibit 441R [retrieving the document from the witness].

4
5

Q.

kind of the wisdom of your position, is that right?

6
7

Now here’s where you talk to Master Sergeant Papakie about

A.
sir?

[Looking at the document] Your wisdom?

Say that again,

When I’m talking to Master Sergeant Papakie, what?

8

Q.

What’s this email about?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] It was just me emailing Master

10

Sergeant just telling him a thought that came across my head and

11

something for him to think about.

12

Q.

And what was that?

13

A.

Well the thing with SR and the SECNAV it says when a doctor

14

deems that SR is no longer necessary or required to return them to

15

appropriate quarters.

16

the SECNAV is written it’s not written for a facility like mine.

17

when they refer to return to -- to appropriate quarters they would

18

then mean that’s in a Level 1 facility or Charleston or Chesapeake.

19

They would mean outside of special quarters -- returning them back to

20

the dorm or the pod where they live.

21

just -- you know, because obviously PSL did not agree, you know, and

22

my thing is what do we do with the underwear issue based on his

23

statement.

But, again, sir, you have to remember the way
So

But, again, for me, this was

So, again, that was just -- honestly, sir, a point that

5422

09315

1

Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz and I -- when I was explaining myself,

2

he didn’t address that comment too much.

3

emailing Master Sergeant just asking him to think about something.

4

Q.

So that was just me, again,

And you tell me if I’m wrong, I look at that and I

5

interpret it you basically saying, look, based upon PSL’s guidance,

6

if you would have made him SR, you would have had to return him to

7

special -- to POI.

8

authority to do anything with the underwear.

9

wrong?

And at that point then you wouldn’t have had the
Am I reading that

10

A.

Say that again, sir?

11

Q.

I see here where it says [reading from the document] hey,

12

Master Sergeant, based upon -- based on PSL’s guidance, making him SR

13

we would have to now return him to appropriate POI, right?

14

A.

[Reading from the document] Appropriate ----

15

Q.

[Continued reading from the document] And then what do we

16

do with the underwear issue based on his statement?

17

thought.

Food for

18

A.

Right.

19

Q.

And then you put exclamation point behind that.

So I look

20

at that and -- the way I’m interpreting it is you’re basically

21

saying, look, had we done this the way PSL says we’re supposed to do

22

it; and that’s put him on SR if you’re going to take clothing, once

23

Colonel Malone he’s not on SR, you would have to return the

5423

09316

1
2

underwear?
A.

Not necessarily, sir, ‘cause, again, it does not say when

3

they’re on SR that you have to take underwear or that you don’t allow

4

them to keep underwear.

5

no SR, whatever status the CO puts the person back in that’s what

6

they choose to do as long as it is not keeping him in SR.

7
8

Q.

Okay.

So, again, his thing is -- if he says, hey,

So how is it -- I understand in SR you can take away

the underwear or not take away the underwear, right?

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

And the provision we looked at for taking away clothing

11
12

falls under SR?
A.

Yes, sir, but, again, it’s not just -- there’s the -- some

13

believe also -- that also addresses that, just not in that section --

14

I can’t recall.

15

that -- from that section.

16
17

Q.

But, again, from what I quoted, yes, it was from

And PSL, the proponent of the regulation is saying that if

you’re taking clothing away, that’s SR?

18

A.

In their opinion, sir, yes.

19

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

20

take a break.

21

MJ:

We can go ahead and, ma’am, at this point

All right, court will be in recess for -- until -- want to

22

say quarter after 1800?

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma’am.

5424

09317

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

2

MJ:

Yes, ma’am.

Okay.

3

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1802, 7 December 2012.]

4

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1821, 7 December

5

2012.]

6

MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

7

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

8

again present in court.

9
10
11
12

Proceed.
CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

Chief Barnes, I again remind you you are

under oath.
WIT: Yes, sir.

13
14

The witness is in the witness chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:

15

Q.

I want to now talking about 3 March 2011.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

That morning PFC Manning was standing naked for count?

18

A.

Uh, huh.

19

Q.

And you indicated that the DBS came in and saw PFC Manning

20

Okay?

standing naked.

21

A.

That’s right, sir.

22

Q.

And we’ve heard previous testimony that DBS was Staff

23

Sergeant Terry?

5425

09318

1

A.

That is correct, sir.

2

Q.

And what did Staff Sergeant Terry tell you he did?

3

A.

Basically, when I came in, you know, I know that there was

4

a note that he had got counseled or something like that but

5

basically, uh, you know, kind of said what happened.

6

Q.

What did he tell you happened?

7

A.

He said as he went around for count the inmate was standing

8

there naked and it caught him off guard and I don’t recall exactly

9

what he said to him but again, you have to remember that through our

10

count the goal is to get through special quarters quick and make sure

11

everybody is there and accounted for so I’m pretty sure he said

12

something to him maybe along the lines of, ‘hey, get dressed’, or

13

whatever but I don’t recall exactly, sir, what he said.

14
15
16
17
18

Q.

Well, you would agree with me that having a detainee

standing naked for count is not a usual occurrence?
A.

Well, a detainee standing for count naked is not a usual

occurrence, that’s right.
Q.

To having part ----

No, and so you would also agree with me from a disciplinary

19

standpoint that if a detainee is choosing not to dress in clothing

20

that that’s an issue that you as the Brig OIC and your staff need to

21

address immediately?

22
23

A.

I mean, and it was, I’m sure again, Staff Sergeant Terry

spoke to him and again something like that because it’s not chronic

5426

09319

1

behavior.

2

But again I also know that Master Sergeant, I spoke to him about

3

that.

4

Q.

It’s just a counseling or, ‘hey, don’t do that anymore.’

Okay.

So having a person standing naked for count, doesn’t

5

rise to a level of actually doing an adverse spot evaluation or a

6

disciplinary report?

7

A.

Again, not a disciplinary report, sir, but again that was

8

the first time that it had happened.

9

again, we don’t kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

I mean, it’s just, I mean,
We use a fly

10

swatter.

11

counseled on it.

12

disciplinary report for something that he had not been doing

13

continuously.

14

because we don’t encourage that and it’s just unsettling.

15

wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do it, sir, okay?

16

me.

17

everybody else.

18

nudity, sir, that’s absolutely necessary in the case of strip search,

19

I don’t like that.

20
21

So that was the first time and of course, you know, he was
So we are not just going to jump straight to

I mean, it was not taken lightly.

I mean, but I mean,
Again, I

These kinds of things bother

When I was enlisted I was a guard sitting in the dorms like

Q.

I hated to do strip searches.

So, any form of

Now, you would agree with me that if PFC Manning was told

to stand naked for count that that would be problematic?

22

A.

Absolutely.

23

Q.

And you would also agree with me that as the DBS even

5427

09320

1

though he does have to do his count if he sees something unusual like

2

that he should do an on-the-spot correction?

3

A.

And, sir, again, I’m not sure exactly what Staff Sergeant

4

Terry told him verbatim, but yes, that is something I’m sure he

5

addressed.

6

addressed that -- and he went through special quarters to complete

7

his count.

8
9
10
11
12
13

Q.

But again, that was just one of those quick things he

Now, as the Brig OIC having this as an unusual event I

imagine what you did was tell everybody, let’s do up an incident
report and document what happened?
A.

I mean, I don’t have to tell them that, sir.

Things like

that that are out of the norm, you know, they document those things.
Q.

So, did you have people like Staff Sergeant Terry and the

14

other guard staff that was there fill out an incident report and

15

explain what happened?

16

A.

I’m pretty sure one was done, sir, but I can’t tell you

17

exactly who did it.

18

at the time.

19

very honest with you, sir, I don’t recall which one, but I know that

20

it was addressed and Master Sergeant Papakie himself went and spoke

21

to him which he did admit, I knew that it’s not appropriate to stand

22

naked and that I recall being on his hard card.

23

Q.

It could have been the special quarters Marine

It could have been an entry on his hard card.

Uh-huh.

5428

So to be

09321

1
2
3

A.

But as far as Staff Sergeant Terry’s statement I don’t

recall if one was done.
Q.

Alright.

So, I want to break that down a little bit.

4

Incident reports of people actually filling out statements we have,

5

at least I haven’t seen those, so do you recall any of those being

6

done by the Brig Staff?

7
8

A.

Incident reports on different things, yes, they were doing

that, sir.

9

Q.

No, for this incident.

2 March?

10

A.

Again, sir, I don’t ----

11

Q.

Or 3 March?

12

A.

---- recall.

I do remember on his hard card that Master

13

Sergeant Papakie spoke to him.

He made an entry on his hard card but

14

again, more than likely it was done, sir.

15

recall.

16

Q.

I don’t -- Again, I don’t

And your testimony now is that Master Sergeant Papakie had

17

a conversation with my client?

My client told him that he knew he

18

was not supposed to be standing naked?

19

A.

That’s what I was briefed on, sir.

20

Q.

Who briefed you on that?

21

A.

Master Sergeant Papakie.

22

went down there.

23

that you don’t stand naked, right?

He said he -- He said, ‘Ma’am, I

I spoke to him and I explained, hey, look, you know

5429

Because you have two blankets.’

09322

1

And from Master Sergeant Papakie told me he said he understood that

2

that was not something that was appropriate.

3
4
5

Q.

And did Master Sergeant Papakie tell you that PFC Manning

was told to put down the blanket and stand at parade rest?
A.

Definitely not, sir.

Again, Staff Sergeant Terry had told

6

me just like with the other detainees right before Reveille the gear

7

is put on the feed tray at the cell and it’s given to them.

8

again when you have two blankets you get up, you cover yourself and

9

when you wrap it around yourself there is a way where you can secure

But

10

it but again, usually when they get up they would just get, you know,

11

their stuff.

12

- they could be at parade rest or waiting around.

13

10 minutes where he could have gotten dressed.

14

count is 0510.

15
16
17

Q.

Now, maybe when they get the stand by for count their But again, that is

Reveille is 0500,

We heard testimony actually that the count occurred within

a minute or so of Reveille actually.
A.

Sir, I don’t see how that is possible.

You go to -- They

18

make the announcement, Reveille, Reveille, Reveille, all lights on,

19

all prisoners out of their rack, Reveille.

20

Sergeant Terry would go into special quarters and conduct a count a

21

minute after that.

22

sir, but on the plan of the day, Reveille goes at 0500.

23

that they do have to give them time to get up, maybe they have to use

I don’t see that Staff

That -- Obviously I wasn’t there that morning,

5430

They know

09323

1

the bathroom, but to say that count was a minute, commenced a minute

2

after the announcement was made for Reveille, sir, I would say that

3

is kind of unlikely.

4

Q.

And that would be unusual, wouldn’t it?

5

A.

Yes, because they go to Reveille and then they go to stand

6
7
8

by for count, and then they go to count.
Q.

And if the facts were that after PFC Manning got up and he

had the blankets on him ----

9

A.

Uh, huh.

10

Q.

---- and the guard told him, ‘Is that how you stand for

11

count?’ and PFC Manning put the blankets down and the guard didn’t

12

correct him or anything and there was no clothes in his food tray,

13

and if they had him stand at attention naked, I know you weren’t

14

there, but if those were the facts and you got them what would you do

15

as a Brig OIC?

16
17

A.

Obviously, sir, if that is what occurred and that’s what I

was briefed on, obviously I would take action.

Again I was ----

18

Q.

What action would you take?

19

A.

I mean that guard would be reprimanded.

20

Q.

How so?

21

A.

There is a bunch of different things I could do, sir.

I mean ----

22

Again, it can go anything from a counseling, a Page 11 entry, I

23

wouldn’t say it rises to a level of a court-martial, but of course,

5431

09324

1

sir, you know there are different ways that you handle situations.

2

But again, it would be addressed and it would not be something that I

3

would take likely because that to me would be deviant behavior.

4

Somebody is telling you, ‘hey, stand up naked for count.’

5
6

Q.

Right, and you already indicated to your staff that you are

not going to sweep anything under the rug, right?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

And so in this instance though what was told back to you

9
10

was apparently PFC Manning chose to do what he did and nobody
informed him that he had to stand naked, right?

11

A.

That’s what I was briefed on, sir.

12

Q.

And you actually told me that you thought that PFC Manning

13

purposely did what he did just to be provocative?

14

A.

When did I talk to you, sir?

15

Q.

When you were interviewed.

You indicated to the defense

16

that you believed that PFC Manning did what he did in order to make a

17

point.

18

A.

Do you recall saying that?
No, when I spoke to Captain Tooman it was not you, and he

19

specifically told me, identified himself as Captain Tooman and not

20

you when he made that, he asked me if I felt that maybe there was a

21

time when I think he said, may have manipulated a situation or done

22

something, and that was the example I gave.

23

find that, okay, at night-night, you won’t have your underwear so you

5432

I just said -- I just

09325

1

stand up the next day naked when you know you have two blankets and

2

you can cover yourself.

3
4
5

Q.

Alright.

So, you told my co-counsel that you believed he

was being manipulative when he decided to stand up naked?
A.

That’s correct.

If he wasn’t sure, sir, like with anything

6

else he could have asked the guard or could have said, ‘Hey, Lance

7

Corporal or Corporal,’ whoever was down there, ‘I’m getting up or

8

where’s my clothes?’

9

not behavior that I encourage.

10

Q.

Or anything like that but again, sir, that’s

And wouldn’t you then at that point do something to

11

document more so the fact that PFC Manning was doing something like

12

that, that it’s documented that his behavior was voluntary and

13

unacceptable?

14

A.

Master Sergeant had made that entry on his hard card, sir,

15

and again, you know, that’s just one of those things, you know, it

16

was addressed.

17

up or address that with him.

18

something.

19

do it then yes, I would get involved and then it will be an issue.

20

Q.

I didn’t feel the need to go back and bring it back
He just like other detainees, he did

He was corrected and that’s it.

Now, if he continued to

But we see time and time again in the weekly reports and

21

even in the C&A Board reports, behavior that occurred months and

22

months and months earlier and yet this behavior, the voluntarily

23

standing up naked is never referenced.

5433

Why is that?

09326

1

A.

I don’t know, sir, I would have to go back and look through

2

all of those but to be very honest with you I have to look at it and

3

see.

4

Q.

And again, if the situation were not what you believed it

5

was, that Manning -- that PFC Manning was trying to manipulate the

6

fact you or others because his underwear was taken from him and

7

instead was ordered to stand that way, then you would agree that that

8

would be problematic?

9
10

A.

that that is not something I would let go.

11
12

Again, sir, yes, you know, if the staff does something like

Q.
to wear.

Now, on 7 March 2011, PFC Manning was given a suicide smock
Correct?

13

A.

Yes, sir, he was.

14

Q.

And you weren’t the one who decided that he would be

15

wearing the suicide smock?

16

A.

No, sir.

17

Q.

The decision was made by someone over your head, a Captain,

18

well, you got an email from a Captain Dunn.

19

A.

I don’t recall.

Do you recall that?

I have to see the email but I don’t recall

20

him making a decision to purchase, I would have to see the email,

21

sir.

22
23

Q.

I’m showing you what’s been marked as Appellate Exhibit

441T.

5434

09327

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

In this email you are responding to Captain Dunn.

He’s --

3

It looks like he is perhaps an attorney within Major General Arye’s

4

office.

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And you tell him that the -- it was the -- the suicide

Do you see that?

7

smock isn’t mandatory but your higher headquarters, PSL, took the

8

liberty of purchasing them.

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And you believe and correct me if I’m wrong, you believe

11
12

that it was CW5 Galaviz who made that determination?
A.

Well, I had spoken to Mr. Radamate Peagon [phonetic] that’s

13

his deputy, so between him or Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz I

14

couldn’t say for sure but I just know that Mr. Peagon was the one who

15

called me and said, hey, because in general they just asked me did we

16

already have some and I said no.

17

facilities even having any and they just kind of said maybe that’s

18

something we’ll get for the other facilities as well.

19

Peagon was the one who kind of said, ‘hey, it’s going to be delivered

20

on this day.

21

Q.

22
23

And they had a question on other

So Mr. Ray

You can expect them.’

And so until you got that call you weren’t planning on

purchasing a suicide smock were you?
A.

I mean at the time he had those two blankets but again I

5435

09328

1

did not at that time say to myself well he is going to continue to be

2

like that so out of sight out of mind.

3

talking, I think it may have been to Gunny Blenis, just asking in

4

general, you know, whether it’s at the hospital, maybe at Walter Reed

5

or something just kind of see what they do but again we didn’t have

6

it and when I talked to Mr. Peagon he just said, yeah, he said,

7

‘well, we’ll just go ahead and order those,’ but again I did not see

8

when I made that decision that I was going to keep that long term

9

like, hey, this is permanent.

But I did -- I do remember

So, at the time I just said, you know,

10

he still has his two blankets and because I know he is given all of

11

his clothing during the day, it was not one of those things that

12

immediately, you know, I said, hey, give him this permanently.

13

Q.

Well, we do know that you never changed the handling

14

instruction of removing his underwear prior to him leaving on 20

15

April, correct?

16

A.

That’s correct, sir.

17

Q.

So, had the suicide smock not been purchased and you did

18

nothing else, PFC Manning would be sleeping naked each night with

19

just the two POI blankets, correct?

20

A.

Yes, but again, sir, that was -- I did question that or

21

bring up, hey, what else could we do and it just so happens that Mr.

22

Peagon he happened to take action at that point.

23

not to, okay, well every night now he has to sleep naked.

5436

But my intent was
That was

09329

1

not my intent, sir.

2

Q.

So, eventually you were going to do something about that?

3

A.

I mean, yes, I was going to review that and maybe look for,

4

again, that communication for him to say, hey, look, ma’am, that day,

5

well you already know what took place.

I was really frustrated.

6

honestly didn’t mean anything by that.

I mean, you know, again if he

7

had just spoken openly.

8

more communication or maybe even if he said, ma’am, I know

9

communication has been degraded some but I want to start it back up

I

If I had seen changes in behavior, maybe

10

again.

11

would have helped me because again, you know from the emails you

12

reviewed, I always made it clear, did not have a problem to change

13

his status and there was also email traffic that said, hey look, this

14

is going to be reviewed on and on and not just -- that wasn’t a

15

permanent decision.

16
17
18

Q.

I want to establish more rapport.

These are things that

Well, I guess my question though was were you planning on

doing any -- getting anything like a suicide smock for him?
A.

Yes, sir, because again I asked about it and Gunnery

19

Sergeant Blenis, uhm, you know, he had did research, he called around

20

to like Fort Buckner asking other facilities that houses military

21

offenders and things like that.

22

was, you know, okay that is something I made in my mind I did not say

23

look, that was going to be permanent.

So, again, you know, initially it

5437

But again, I thought well,

09330

1

we’ll see how things go but if things don’t change or that kind of

2

behavior continued or those kind of comments then, you know, nobody

3

would want to just sleep in two blankets period.

4
5
6

Q.

Okay.

So, it was just happenstance that PSL actually took

the initiative to purchase the suicide smock for you?
A.

Yes, I would say that, sir.

Because again, the questions

7

were up, hey, other brigs don’t really have this either and maybe

8

this is something we could buy for all of the facilities.

9
10

Q.

Now, this incident of having PFC Manning be required to

surrender his underwear at night ----

11

A.

Uh-huh.

12

Q.

---- prompted a lot of media attention.

13

A.

Yes, sir, it did.

14

Q.

And it also caused a lot of what you said, distain from

15
16
17
18

Correct?

people who support PFC Manning?
A.

Well, I mean, yes, I’m sure that was one of the things but

that was actually going on even before that incident, sir.
Q.

But this incident in particular caused a lot of people who

19

were supporting PFC Manning to become I guess more proactive and more

20

vocal?

21

A.

Just more upset, sir.

22

Q.

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate Exhibit 441T and

23

handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441U.

5438

09331

1

A.

Uh, huh.

2

Q.

Now this is an email to your staff and you CC Colonel

3

Oltman and you are talking about the fact that, you know, the

4

decision to remove his underwear is causing attention and distain

5

from those who support PFC Manning.

6

A.

Correct?

Those are not the exact words but I said, yes, keeping his

7

underwear and that comes with a lot of distain from others who

8

support him, yes.

9
10

Q.

Alright.

And you warned your staff to be prepared for

verbal attacks or either on the phone or at visitation.

Correct?

11

A.

That’s correct, sir.

12

Q.

And the media attention really though didn’t begin at this

13
14

incident as you previously stated, right?
A.

No, there were issues before, sir, and again these threats

15

that the staff was getting that was occurring even before I took

16

over, sir, so this has been kind of ongoing but my reference to this

17

is just okay, those threats might heat up some.

18
19

Q.

And the media attention in this case was ongoing even

before you got called, right?

20

A.

As I would assume so, sir.

21

Q.

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate Exhibit 441U.

22

Handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441V.

23

in fact, involved in formulating responses for media inquiries were

5439

Now sometimes you were,

09332

1

you not?

2
3

A.

Yes, sir, they were calling to ask me questions or a

definition of terms and stuff like that.

4

Q.

On 26 January 2011, First Lieutenant Villiard [phonetic]

5

wrote a response that he was planning on sending out to the media and

6

you indicated that it was very good.

Correct?

7

A.

But I added however though, that’s not my entire answer.

8

Q.

Right, you said, I’m screaming right now.

9

We never say

solitary confinement?

10

A.

That’s right.

11

Q.

You didn’t say, we don’t have a designation of solitary

12

confinement, you just simply say we never say solitary confinement.

13

Correct?

14

A.

That’s what I said, yes, sir.

15

Q.

And that’s because solitary confinement doesn’t sound good?

16

A.

Nor does an existence of Department of Defense Corrections,

17

sir.

I mean surely if it’s a thing with words ----

18

Q.

Uh, huh.

19

A.

---- yes, you know, someone could tear that apart and say

20

well you did not say it doesn’t exist.

21

Villiard on the phone before and other people and that’s why I said,

22

I am screaming because I remember talking to him in general, I mean,

23

even when dignitaries came to visit the facility I cleared that up.

5440

I have spoken to Lieutenant

09333

1

I said, the definition of solitary means no communication,

2

interaction with personnel, other inmates whatever the case is and

3

you are just left in a cell to rot away and that does not exist.

4

Q.

Okay.

So that is for you, I just want to make sure I know

5

what you’re definition of solitary confinement is then.

6

confinement is being left in your cell?

7
8
9
10
11

A.

So solitary

No interaction with anybody prisoner or staff, not being

fed or ---Q.

No interaction.

Well, obviously you would have to have

some interaction because you are getting food and stuff, right?
A.

Well, again, sir, if you are just going to base a

12

definition of solitary confinement, yes, it’s no interaction at all

13

or no type of exchange with other staff.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

Or with the inmates in general.

16

Q.

So, left in the cell, no interaction with staff and or

17

certainly other detainees, right?

18

A.

Right.

19

Q.

Any other characteristics for you that would say ----

20

A.

I mean, those are just the basic definition, sir.

But

21

again, I told him, hey, I’m screaming right now because you have to

22

understand, sir, they are not in corrections all the time and when

23

the media keeps saying solitary confinement.

5441

Solitary confinement.

09334

1

You know, that’s, you know, even in civilian corrections that’s a

2

term that’s used, but again, for us in military corrections, it

3

doesn’t exist.

4

Q.

Well, how is what you described as I guess, being left in

5

your cell and not having interaction different from how PFC Manning

6

was held?

7

A.

Well, there was interaction, sir.

explained.

9

out of the cell for recreation call, visits with you, telephone
calls, shower calls.

His counselor talked to him.

I

8

10

I talked to him.

You know that.

He was

Alright.

So, that will constitute interaction though.

11

Q.

I’m showing you Attachment 37 to Appellate

12

Exhibit 258.

13

This is the testimony before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on

14

Constitution, Civil Rights, and Human Rights Hearing dealing with

15

solitary confinement.

Your Honor, I’ll just provide a copy to the court.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

And this is the testimony of Professor Craig Haney and he

18

describes solitary confinement and I want you to -- to go ahead and

19

if you would turn to Page 4.

20

A.

Okay, sir.

21

Q.

Professor Haney starts off with, “I should acknowledge that

22

the term solitary confinement is a term of art in corrections.

23

Solitary or isolated confinement goes by a variety of names in US

5442

09335

1

Prisons; security housing, administrative segregation, close

2

management, high security, closed cell restriction and so on.

3

the units all have in common the fact that the prisoners who are

4

housed inside them are confined on an average of 23 hours a day in

5

typically windowless, or near windowless cells.

6

in dimensions from 60 to 80 square feet.

7

side of this range are roughly the size of a ----

8

TC [MAJ FEIN]: Ma’am.

9

MJ:

They commonly range

The ones on the smaller

Yes.

10

TC [MAJ FEIN]: That’s not a question for the witness.

11

MJ:

12
13
14
15

Well, that’s what I’m asking.

I’m thinking this too.

Are

you going to read the entire document to the witness?
CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

No, Your Honor.

If I can have another

moment, I’ll finish and ask the question.
MJ:

Okay.

Well, are we going to go paragraph by paragraph

16

through this document?

17

CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

18

MJ:

19

CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

20

But

No, Your Honor.

Is it going to stop after that question with this document?
No.

I’m not going to read any more out of

the document though, Your Honor.

21

MJ:

Alright.

I’ll let it go for now.

22

CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

23

Q.

Alright.

‘So the ones on the smaller side of the range are roughly

5443

09336

1

the size of a king-size bed.

2

sink, and all the prisoner’s worldly possessions.

3

solitary confinement sleep, eat, and defecate in their cells in

4

spaces that are no more than a few feet apart from one another.’

5

you see that?

6

A.

Okay, sir.

7

Q.

Do you agree or disagree with Professor Haney’s definition

8

One that contains a bunk, a toilet, a
Thus prisoners in

of solitary confinement?

9

MJ:

I’m -- please don’t answer that question.

There is plenty

10

of other things in here that I looked through that go along with

11

that.

12

So, please move on to a different area inquiry.

13
14

19

Well, ma’am -- would you agree in this instance that PFC

Manning was held in a cell for roughly 23 hours a day?
A.

Well, sir, honestly with rec call and coming out for shower

call, no, it wasn’t 23 hours a day.

17
18

So, that is not his entire definition of solitary confinement.

Q.

15
16

Do

Q.

How many hours a day on average was PFC Manning held in his

A.

I mean, sir, it would depend.

cell?
He would come out for

20

visits, shower call, rec call, so, sir, to get me to tell you every

21

day he was in that cell for 22.5 hours, I can’t do that, sir.

22

every day was different.

23

in that room, so to be very honest with you MAX custody prisoners,

People would talk to him.

5444

Again,

He would go out

09337

1

yes, are they in their cells for a considerable period of the day?

2

Yes.

3

into consideration rec call.

4

call, phone calls and visits.

But again, there’s no number that says that.

When you take

You take into consideration shower

5

Q.

How long did he get for shower call?

6

A.

I don’t recall exactly, sir, but it probably was, I don’t

7

know anywhere from 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it depends.

8

with having to suit him up, escort him down, again, sir, I’m not

9

there during that time but I’m sure he has an adequate amount of time

10

to shower.

But again

He will let them know when he’s done.

11

Q.

And his cell, did it have any windows in it?

12

A.

No, sir, his cell did not have any windows but again,

13

that’s just how the Brig is designed.

14

a functional area inspection.

15

doesn’t require, you know, when there are some cells are open-faced,

16

there were windows in special quarters, yes, but just not in his cell

17

because all of the cells are right next to each other.

18

open-faced cells.

Headquarters, Marine Corps did

The Brig is fine and by the SECNAV

Sir, they are

19

Q.

And his cell was 6 by 8.

20

A.

6 by 8 by 8, sir.

21

Q.

And so that would be less than 60 to 80 square feet, right?

22

A.

If you want to do the math that way, sir, okay.

23

Q.

Well, I mean, math is not -- mathematics is not an opinion

5445

Is that correct?

09338

1

it’s a fact, right?

2

A.

Okay, sir.

3

Q.

Alright.

4

So, in this instance here also he had a bunk, a

toilet, and a sink, is that right?

5

A.

Yes, sir, he did.

6

Q.

And he had to eat in his cell?

7

A.

That’s correct.

8

Q.

Sleep in there?

9

A.

That’s correct.

10

Q.

And obviously if he had to use the facilities he used the

11

facilities in his cell?

12

A.

Like every other detainee, sir, yes.

13

Q.

Now, when you looked at him for MAX and POI ----

14

A.

Uh, huh.

15

Q.

---- did there come a time where you thought, you know

16

what, maybe I’m being overly conservative in my custody and

17

classification of PFC Manning?

18

A.

No, sir, again, I just stuck to basic corrections.

I stuck

19

to the tenants that I gave him being honest, me having open

20

communication with him telling him, hey, this is what I need to do.

21

I don’t think that, you know, I was overly harsh or extra

22

conservative.

23

and they were all treated the same.

Again, he was not the only POI detainee that we had

5446

09339

1

Q.

Well, I don’t doubt that they were all treated the same but

2

do you have any other MAX/POI detainees for the length of PFC

3

Manning?

4

A.

No, not under my watch, no.

5

Q.

Now, with regards to his suicide smock you recall there was

6

an incident where he got stuck inside the smock, correct?

7

MJ:

Before you answer that, can I -- the question that you said

8

before there were no other POI detainees on your -- when you were ---

9

-

10
11

WIT: In that -- In that set of a very long period of time, no,
ma’am.

12

MJ:

13

WIT: Right.

14

MJ:

Okay.

15

Q.

Oh, no problem, Your Honor.

16
17
18
19

For a long time?

I’ve got it.

I’m sorry, go ahead.

So, with regards to or actually we’ll go back to that POI
for just a moment.
A.

And so we are done with this, sir, I don’t mean to

interrupt you?

20

Q.

No.

21

A.

Okay.

22

Q.

With regards to POI what was the longest you had another

23

detainee on POI other than PFC Manning?

5447

09340

1

A.

To be honest with you, sir, I don’t recall.

2

more than a few days.

3

that he had been in that status himself, sir.

4

Q.

Alright.

I know it was

But again, it was not to the length of time

Now talking about the suicide smock as you have

5

previously testified there was a time when PFC Manning got stuck in

6

that.

Is that right?

7

A.

I recall that happening, sir, yes.

8

Q.

And you recall PFC Manning saying that he hated the suicide

9

smock?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

Now, after that incident did you ever consider whether or

12

not the smock could be something that would pose a danger to PFC

13

Manning?

14

A.

No, sir.

Again, he was counseled on how to -- on what to

15

do or not to do and I don’t recall that it happened after that.

16

not too sure but, the way it is designed I didn’t think he could, you

17

know, hurt himself with it but again he was just told this is how you

18

wear it.

19
20

Q.

I’m

And if I understand or if I’m correct he was counseled not

to put his arms into the suicide smock again.

Is that right?

21

A.

I believe that’s probably what he was told, sir.

22

Q.

Now did you think the danger at this point by giving his

23

underwear back was greater than just having him wear the suicide

5448

09341

1
2

smock?
A.

Again, sir, I didn’t see any change in behavior.

He never

3

discussed that comment with me or anything like that.

4

obviously if I kept his underwear I still felt there was nothing that

5

I was seeing from him that made me feel comfortable to say, okay, you

6

know what, I don’t have an issue let’s give you your underwear back.

7

Q.

So, yes,

And I want to make sure I understand your testimony, is it

8

-- were you seeing anything from a conduct standpoint that would

9

cause you to be concerned about not giving him his underwear back?

10

A.

No, sir, because again, that’s one thing.

Even though he

11

did not carry on full length conversations, he was, aside from that

12

one instance, he wasn’t disrespectful or just like acting out

13

because, well, I don’t have my underwear I’m going to yell, I’m going

14

to scream or I’m going to do this or that.

15

Q.

No.

And you were consistently still receiving the

16

recommendations from your forensic psychiatrist that PFC Manning was

17

a low risk for self-harm during this time period, right?

18

A.

Right, but I believe there may have been others.

I’m not

19

sure if it was Lieutenant Colonel Russell at the time frame but it

20

wasn’t always marked low and again, they never state no risk.

21

Q.

Right.

No one is ever no risk, right?

22

A.

Right.

23

Q.

Now, in spite of his good behavior and getting favorable

5449

09342

1

recommendations from your mental health experts you kept him on this

2

because he hadn’t verbalized to you something that you wanted to

3

hear.

4

Is that correct?
A.

I mean, not just something I wanted to hear but actions

5

that I need to see, because again, even though he’s not being

6

disrespectful or not answering me maybe like when they call attention

7

on deck, he’s not standing up at attention.

8

types of things but again, sir, very reserved, very short with

9

answers, little to no conversation, that’s -- that’s -- those are the

He wasn’t doing those

10

things I’m looking at.

11

talk that he kind of understood, you know, it’s one thing maybe if

12

you don’t want to speak a lot, don’t want to answer a lot of

13

questions, but disrespect he understood clearly that day that if it

14

continued, you know, it wouldn’t help his case later on that he would

15

face repercussions like everybody else.

16

was he respectful when he answered?

17

something like that but again, the overall behavior, the interaction

18

with staff and with me and talking, that wasn’t there.

19

Q.

Naturally I would think after we had that

So, again, you know, yes,

Yes, ma’am, or no ma’am, or

But was there, in your mind, a time where you were going to

20

return his underwear to him if he didn’t start talking to you and the

21

staff?

22
23

A.

I mean, honestly, sir, out of my plan, again, sir, was to

engage him, but you see from his statements himself, getting agitated

5450

09343

1

really easily, even when the guards are correcting him on something

2

he’s doing wrong.

3

these things don’t make me feel comfortable.

4

willing to give you your underwear back, change POI, but you are not

5

doing the things I’m telling you to do.

6

Q.

So, for me, again, once I explained to you, hey,
I am open.

I am

Right, and so I guess my question is then if he didn’t

7

start doing those things he was still going to have his underwear

8

removed from him?

9

A.

To be honest with you, yes, sir.

I wouldn’t -- If I did

10

not see any positive change or any conversation from him telling me,

11

ma’am, you know what, some time has passed, now I am ready to talk to

12

you.

13

to talk.

14

because of the amount of MAXs we have and the requirements and that

15

tasks the staff.

16

development schools, other things are going on.

17

Manning.

18

Facility at any given time.

19

keep MAXs in general.

20

custody, something else.

21

that I have never ever just said, well, it’s a done deal that’s it.

22

You know, and I would go out of my way to engage him, talk to him,

23

hey, look, I’m telling you what you need to do.

I just was kind of heated still over things but now I’m ready
Again, sir, for me I take no pride and no joy knowing that

I have Marines that cannot go to professional

We have another Brig to run.

It’s not just about

There are other MAXs in the

So for me, it pains me when I have to

It could be a MAX escape risk.

MAX protective

So, I just want to make that point clear

5451

Now, if I wasn’t

09344

1

giving him that guidance or telling him clearly what he needed to do

2

then I would be at fault.

3

this is what you need to do.

4
5

Q.

It is my responsibility to tell him, hey,

I’m showing you Enclosure 47, again of Appellate Exhibit

259, the SECNAV Instruction.

6

A.

Okay.

7

Q.

Page 31 of 388, it says here that hazing, harassment,

8

unauthorized exercises, unnecessary restrictions, or deprivations and

9

demeaning treatment serve no useful purpose and are prohibited.

The

10

friction they cause creates tension between staff and prisoners and

11

leads to acts of aggression, retaliation, and serious individual or

12

mass disturbances.

13

A.

Okay.

14

Q.

Did you ever think that perhaps being on MAX and POI for

15

the length that he was and now having his underwear removed from him

16

was an unnecessary deprivation and restriction that was causing PFC

17

Manning to act out?

18

A.

No, sir.

Again, when I see those -- I understand what the

19

SECNAV says but again, he was not refused chow.

He ate everything

20

that we ate.

21

list of the meal choices, he gets to pick what he wants to eat and

22

again on special occasions he had steak and lobster, the same thing I

23

would eat.

Matter of fact he got fed first because he’s given a

I ate in the brig all the time.

5452

So, I did not feel -- to

09345

1

answer your question, I did not feel there was any deprivation or

2

anything that would cause him to act that way.

3

wasn’t denied anything whether it was rec call, chow, you know,

4

again, he asked for writing material and he got it.

I mean, again, he

5

Q.

But he was denied his underwear at night?

6

A.

Okay, sir, but again you know why I made that decision.

I

7

made it clear and again, it wasn’t that one comment.

8

that comment and you look in totality of between his history, the

9

things he said on paper, the things he said on the C&A Board, again,

10
11

When you take

sir, in the corrections environment, we cannot take that lightly.
Q.

Well, if he deemed the underwear being taken from him and

12

unnecessary restriction, could you see how that might cause tension

13

between him and your staff?

14

A.

Well, it could, sir.

But again, I limited that to between

15

Taps and Reveille.

16

up at night.

17

sweats.

18

fixed, he had his detainee uniform on.

19

his sneakers.

20

call, those kind of things.

21

yes, I could definitely see somebody like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

22

Why am I not getting fed?

23

kind of thing.

Again, because of reduced visibility, less staff

Again, during the day time he was allowed to wear his

I know there was an issue with the heat before they got it
He went out to rec call, had

Again, he wasn’t denied hygiene call, showers, rec
Now, if those things were occurring then

Why am I not allowed to go outside?” that

5453

09346

1
2
3

Q.

But you wouldn’t see that with why am I having my underwear

taking from me every night?
A.

I mean, again, sir, yes, could having your underwear taken

4

at night upset you or make you feel like, yes, but again, if you are

5

honest with yourself and somebody explains their actions to you, if

6

you are honest with yourself you might not necessarily have the same

7

opinion but you could say, you know what, I kind of see why.

8

like it but I understand your points.

9

agree on everything but to be very honest, sir, yes, again, like I

I don’t

So it doesn’t mean we have to

10

testified before maintaining just your clothing, we do everything to

11

allow them to maintain some sort of dignity even while they are

12

confined.

13

CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

Your Honor, I could go into another block

14

but I think that would be longer.

15

recess for the night.
Alright.

It may be good to go ahead and

16

MJ:

Any objection?

17

TC [MAJ FEIN]: No, Your Honor.

18

MJ:

Is there anything we need to address before we recess the

19

court?

We will be reconvening, will it be Monday morning then at

20

0930 as has been the norm?

21

CDC [MR. COOMBS]:

22

TC [MAJ FEIN]: Nothing new, or nothing else, Your Honor, 0930

23

Yes, Your Honor.

Monday morning.

5454

09347

1

MJ:

All right.

And once again, Chief Barnes, please do not

2

discuss your testimony or knowledge of the case with anyone other

3

than counsel or the accused while these proceedings are going on.

4

will see you at 0930 on Monday morning.

5
6
7

WIT: All right, ma’am.
[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1900, 7 December 2012.]
[END OF PAGE]

5455

We

09348

1
2

[The Article 39(a) was called to order at 0937, 10 December 2012.]
MJ:

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

3

record reflect that all of the parties present when the court last

4

recessed are again present in court, except there has been a change

5

in court reporters.

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Major Fein?
Yes, ma’am.

Mr. Dennis Robertshaw is absent, and

7

Mr. Robert [sic] Chavez is present and has been previously sworn.

8

Also, the witness is not currently present, but waiting, Your Honor.

9

MJ:

Counsel and I met in a brief R.C.M. 802 conference prior to

10

coming on the record today.

11

discussed.

12

by some additional witnesses.

13

those witnesses today.

14

desire to supplement what I have said for the R.C.M. 802 conference?

We’re going to proceed with Chief Barnes today, followed

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

18

Nothing really substantive was

And we may or may not be through with

We’ll see how it goes.

Does either side

No, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.

All right, anything else we need to address before we call

the witness?

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

20

MJ:

No, Your Honor.

Please call the witness.

5456

09349

1

CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER TWO DENISE BARNES, U.S. Marines, was recalled

2

as a witness for the prosecution, was reminded of her previous oath,

3

and testified as follows:

4
5
6

CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED):
Questions by the civilian defense counsel [Mr. Coombs]:
Q.

All right, Chief, I want to ask you just a couple questions

7

about after your decision to have PFC Manning’s underwear removed

8

from him----

9

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

10

Q.

You were contacted by Captain Haberland, correct?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And Captain Haberland wanted to address the issue with you

13
14

as to what was being done and why, is that correct?
A.

I’m pretty sure, sir, he asked the question--I think he

15

said he heard he was on suicide risk.

16

on suicide risk, sir.

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

18

And I said, I didn’t put him

I’m handing the witness what’s been marked

Appellate Exhibit 441X [handing the document to the witness].

19

WIT: Okay.

20

Q.

Is that email look familiar to you?

21

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

22

Q.

And this was the email where Captain Haberland asked you

23

about why you put PFC Manning on suicide risk, is that right?

5457

09350

1
2
3

A.

[Reading from the document] Yes.

He said that he heard

that he was on suicide watch and wanted to discuss it, sir.
Q.

And then you responded back to him that you--you hadn’t put

4

him on suicide risk, but you had, in fact, removed his underwear--

5

ordered the removal of his underwear essentially?

6

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me look.

There’s a bunch of

7

different chains here.

8

[Pause]

9

A.

Yes, sir, I did talk to him.

10

Q.

And when you spoke with Captain Haberland about the fact

11

that you were removing PFC Manning’s underwear at night ----

12

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

13

Q.

---- did Captain Haberland ever address to you concerns by

14

the government for that action?

15

A.

Concerns about the government?

16

Q.

From the government for that action?

17

A.

Honestly, sir, I don’t recall.

I just remember telling

18

him, no, I did not put him on suicide risk.

Yes, I did say that I

19

would like his underwear to be removed only as a precaution only

20

between taps and reveille--to clarify that--so he--so he understood

21

that he wasn’t on suicide risk.

22

said what is the concern for the government or whatever.

23

understood what I did, why I did it, and he just said he wanted

But I don’t recall, honestly, if he

5458

He

09351

1

clarification so he can brief his chain.

2

Q.

Okay, so he wasn’t second-guessing your decision?

3

A.

I didn’t get that impression from him, sir.

4

Q.

Now you--you claim--well you testified that no one has

5

ordered you to hold PFC Manning in a particular status, correct?

6

A.

That’s correct, sir.

7

Q.

And, in fact, you said that if Colonel Choike tried to

8
9

order you to do that, you would want documentation of that?
A.

Right.

I just said if I make a decision based on my best

10

correctional judgment and I’m being told to do something totally

11

different or being--my hand is being forced, then, yes, I would like

12

something in writing though.

13

Q.

And you had previously stated to the defense that if

14

somebody ordered you to hold a detainee in a particular way you would

15

have responded, hey, I’m the brig OIC, I’m the subject matter expert,

16

that’s unprofessional.

17

A.

I don’t ----

18

Q.

Is that not your testimony here?

19

A.

Okay, sir, for one, I remember, again, I had a few

20

conversations with Captain Tooman, and said--I remember saying I make

21

decisions on my best correctional judgment.

22

to do otherwise, I would like to be covered like I think anybody else

23

would want to be.

And if people force me

But I don’t, you know, don’t recall saying, well

5459

09352

1

it’s profe--I’m the SME, you can’t tell me what to do, or having an

2

attitude like that.

3

chain of command can give me orders like anybody else; what do I do?

4

You follow it, but, again, you ask for something to cover you though.

5

Q.

The bottom line is, at the end of the day, my

Okay, so if you did receive then an order from say

6

Lieutenant General Flynn to hold PFC Manning in some particular

7

status, you would have followed that order but requested some kind of

8

documentation of that order?

9

A.

I would have kept Colonel Oltman in the loop and said, sir,

10

this is what I’m being directed to do.

11

correctional judgment that we take this action, sir.

12

I would not probably get an email directly from General Flynn--I

13

mean--you know, that’s--they usually go through--go to our--our boss.

14

And, again, my review--reporting team is Colonel Oltman, my reviewing

15

officer was Colonel Oltman, so--but, again, had they directed me to

16

do something that I know, hey, this is not in the best interest

17

either of that detainee or in my best correctional judgment, I would

18

have asked my boss, sir, with all due respect this is not the course

19

of action that I suggest or I would take.

20

this documented, you know, that I’m being forced to do it.

21

sometimes people can call and say things but they’re not willing to

22

put it in writing.

23

5460

It’s not in my best
Because, again,

And could you somehow get
I mean

09353

1
2

Q.

Now if you had not gotten documentation would you have

followed the order or would you have insisted on documentation?

3

A.

At the end of the day, I have to follow orders.

That’s the

4

bottom line.

5

I was called on this particular day--some sort of justification.

6

But, again, sir, at the end of the day, you know, if he says, you

7

know, Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, this has to happen, and I go to

8

my chain or him and say, sir, this is against best correctional

9

advice or practices, at the end of the day if I’m given a direct

But, again, I would make my own note to myself maybe if

10

order, sir, active duty--it’s not what I like--we--you know, I’m sure

11

anybody else can say, at times--wherever you work--leadership or your

12

boss may tell you, hey, I want this done this way, you--they respect

13

you enough to ask your opinion, you give it, they still say, nope, I

14

want it done this way anyway.

15

thing to do.

16

can I disrespect anybody that’s senior to me whether it’s a three-

17

star or not.

18

been happy to do, but at the end of the day, in the military you

19

follow orders.

20

So it would not have been an easy

I would not have liked it, but at the end of the day

So, again, it’s not a--it’s not something I would have

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate

21

Exhibit 441X [retrieving the document from the witness] and handing

22

the witness Appellate Exhibit 441W [handing the document to the

23

witness].

5461

09354

1

WIT: Okay.

2

Q.

I want to ask you a few questions about this email chain.

3

A.

Okay.

4

Q.

I’d like you to look at the email from 10 March, that’s on

5

the second page, from Colonel Oltman, I guess, to Colonel Choike ----

6

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

7

Q.

---- and then--and then if you need to go ahead and glance

8

at the first page as well.

9

questions about the email chain, okay.

10

A.

And I just want to ask you a few

[Looking at the document] Okay.

You realize that I’m not

11

on these emails, so I’m going to need some time to read through it,

12

okay, sir?

13

Q.

Sure.

14

A.

Okay.

15

You take--take the time you need.

[Pause while the witness read through the document.]

16

A.

Okay, sir.

17

Q.

Okay.

So if you look at Colonel Oltman’s email on the

18

second page, he says that you were not acting “alone and unafraid in

19

your decision process with regards to PFC Manning’s status and

20

handling instructions.”

21

A.

Is that correct?

That’s correct, sir.

That day in particular when I made

22

that decision, I--before it was even executed, I called him.

23

sir, here’s what’s ----

5462

I said,

09355

1

MJ:

2

WIT: I’m sorry, ma’am.

3

A.

4
5

Who is “him”?

And I did explain what was going on and why I made the

decision.
Q.

Colonel Oltman.

He says, okay, he understood that.

And that was it, sir.

Now he indicates, at least in the email chain, that every

6

decision with you, much like with your predecessor, Chief Averhart,

7

was discussed with him and he concurred with all.

8
9
10
11
12

A.

Oh, yes, I would agree with that, sir.

wasn’t just about Detainee Manning.
to brief him on as well.
Q.

Is that correct?
And, again, it

There were other inmates I had

So that was just common practice, sir.

But Detainee Manning was the only one that you were doing a

weekly progress report on, correct?

13

A.

That’s correct, sir.

14

Q.

Now you see--if you go to the front page you see Colonel

15

Choike said he called you on 10 March 2011 because the instructions

16

he received from Lieutenant General Flynn were best passed on to you

17

personally.

18
19
20

A.

Do you see that?

[Looking at the document] It says he just got off the phone

with me and let me know the CG’s intent.
Q.

Well, that’s what I want to ask you about.

So what were

21

the instructions that you received from Colonel Choike, I guess--I

22

guess from General Flynn through Colonel Choike?

23

A.

Most of the conversation, from what I remember, sir, he was

5463

09356

1

just letting me know--hey, Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, I’m not

2

second-guessing you or anything you’ve done--you’re not in any

3

trouble with me--he just said--basically he just said with decisions

4

that are made now--he says--I don’t remember his exact words, but

5

basically they, I guess, would like to run it through the chain--I

6

guess past Colonel Oltman first before we actually execute or

7

something like that.

8

can remember is it was just, hey, we’re not second-guessing you,

9

we’re not saying you did anything wrong.

But the bulk of that conversation, sir, that I

So he did not call me to

10

say, hey, you will not do this or from now on you will do this--this

11

is what General Flynn wants, sir.

12

Q.

Okay, so--and I want to kind of--to the best of your

13

knowledge--I know it’s been a little while--but I want to try to

14

deconstruct that conversation a little bit, okay?

15

A.

That’s not a problem, sir.

16

Q.

All right, so he calls you up and he basically says, hey,

17
18

you’re not--you’re not in trouble.
A.

Yes.

Is that right?

He just kind of said, hey, you’re not doing anything

19

wrong or--you know, he just said I’m not second-guessing you--again,

20

most of the conversations from what I remember was just him letting

21

me know--obviously they want things differently now.

22

run up the chain first.

23

Colonel Oltman, hey, sir, this is what took place.

It needs to be

And not--I guess how I did it by briefing

5464

These are the

09357

1

actions I intend on taking.

2

give me instruction like you will not do this or anything like that,

3

sir.

4

Q.

This is why.

So, again, sir, he did not

But it appears that--and I want to see from your

5

understanding that there was a--hey, Chief, from this point forward

6

though before you make any changes it has to be briefed up the chain,

7

is that correct?

8
9

A.

Well, to be honest, sir, I didn’t make it--there wasn’t any

incidents that I recall--that I can recall that was as huge as the

10

issue with me saying, hey, I want to remove his underwear.

11

about it is we’ve had a couple meetings after that, you know, just

12

about Manning and getting him the extra help, but about the manpower

13

issues, shutting down the brig; that kind of thing, but there was

14

never to my knowledge any other thing where I call Colonel Oltman,

15

hey, this is going on.

16

standing by for the General’s guidance or anything.

17

General Flynn may have left at that time; he changed over.

18

don’t recall, sir, that there was some other situation----

19

Q.

The thing

I know I have to wait to execute, sir.

Well let’s stop for a moment.

I’m

And I think
So I

First of all, the--General

20

Flynn was still the MCCDC Commander at the time PFC Manning left, is

21

that correct?

22

A.

23

I don’t recall, sir.

I know he left.

exact time that he left.

5465

I don’t recall the

09358

1

Q.

Okay.

Then second, what I want to do is I want to

2

deconstruct that conversation; not whether or not you ever had to

3

execute anything, but based upon what Colonel Choike told you.

4

told you that if you’re going to make any other changes that that had

5

to be briefed up first to General Flynn before you actually did those

6

changes, correct?

He

7

A.

I don’t recall if he actually said those words, sir, again.

8

Q.

What do you recall?

9

A.

I recall, as I stated, sir, he just kind of said, hey, I’m-

10

-you know, you’re not in any kind of trouble or anything.

11

are doing great over there.

12

guess just kind of said, you know--basically--and I don’t, again,

13

recall the exact words, but just basically what Colonel Oltman is

14

saying that, you know, they want things briefed all the way up to the

15

General before they’re executed.

16
17

Q.

You guys

I’m not second-guessing you--and he--I

So.

And that’s what I’m trying to get for your understanding

because looking at the email----

18

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

19

Q.

----it appear that what Colonel Choike is saying is that

20

making changes without the CG’s concurrence at this point is not

21

going to happen anymore?

22

A.

Yeah, looking his email, sir.

23

Q.

And--and so we--we can read that from the email; that’s

5466

09359

1

plain English, but I wanted to see from your understanding with the

2

phone conversation was that also conveyed to you by the phone

3

conversation from Colonel Choike to you that changes were not going

4

to be made until the CG had an opportunity to concur or nonconcur?

5

A.

I mean, again, sir, I don’t recall his exact words telling

6

me, hey, Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, from now on when you decide to

7

take action on anybody or against mostly Manning, you--when you brief

8

your chain, you wait for it to be executed.

9

Colonel Choike felt bad that he made that call to me to be very

Honestly, I think

10

honest with you.

So, again, it wasn’t a very long conversation.

11

was kind of shocked ‘cause normally the base commander does not call

12

the Brig OIC.

13

Q.

Right.

14

A.

So, honestly, for me to try to sit here and say, well, yes,

15

he absolutely said that?

16

honestly, you know, what I recall from the conversation.

17

Q.

I can’t do it, sir.

And--and I understand.

I

I can only tell you

And that’s probably fair not to put

18

you in a position where you say these are the exact words that he

19

said to me.

20

conversation and that phone was hung up----

But how about I approach this way; when you left that

21

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

22

Q.

Did you understand that you could no longer make changes

23

with PFC Manning until the CG had an opportunity to concur or

5467

09360

1
2

nonconcur?
A.

I mean, yes, I understood things would be different.

But

3

by that time, sir, I had already been told the gist of the same thing

4

by Colonel Oltman though.

5

Q.

Okay, and--and so from--from your testimony now what I

6

understand is that you knew that if you’re making changes with PFC

7

Manning unless it was for, you know, life like changes----

8

A.

Right.

9

Q.

----like you actually had to make them on the spot, but

10

those changes would not be made until the CG had an opportunity to

11

concur or nonconcur?

12

A.

Well for the most part from what Colonel Oltman said as

13

well, sir, yes, he just told me, hey, if you have to make a decision

14

on something, brief me first and I’ll get back to you.

15

understood whether it was from--you know, first from Colonel Oltman

16

that that would be the case, sir.

17

Q.

I mean so I

And as you said that there was never an opportunity or

18

never a situation where the CG non-concurred with anything that you

19

did afterwards, correct?

20

A.

Say that again, sir.

21

Q.

There was never a situation where General Flynn non-

22
23

concurred with something that you did after the date of this email?
A.

No, sir, I never heard--I never heard anything from General

5468

09361

1

Flynn himself or from Colonel Oltman saying, hey, don’t do this,

2

don’t do that.

3

Q.

And so General Flynn never said--put any email down saying,

4

Chief Barnes, I think removing his underwear at this point is a

5

mistake.

Give him his underwear back.

6

A.

No, sir, I never got an email from General Flynn.

7

Q.

And, likewise, Colonel Choike didn’t pick up the phone

8

again and call you and say, Chief Barnes, it’s been now a week of

9

removing his underwear, we think that’s a mistake, give him his

10

underwear back?

11

A.

No, sir.

12

Q.

And nor did Colonel Oltman?

13

A.

No, sir.

14

Q.

And I--I guess because none of these individuals said they

15

disagree with your decision, then all these individuals, as you said,

16

were telling you they didn’t think you were doing anything wrong?

17

A.

Well, in general they talk about my overall running of the

18

brig, sir.

Again, it’s not just about Manning.

There were other

19

MAXs, other SR, other POIs that they got briefed on.

20

did not request that weekly progress reports on the other ones, but

21

just in general because they understood the issues with the staff

22

getting threatened.

23

things that can have an adverse effect on the staff.

Granted they

They understood the protests and all these

5469

So, again, when

09362

1

they said it, they just honestly from--you know, feedback with

2

Colonel Oltman from time to time was just like, hey, overall you’re

3

doing a good job running the brig.

4

reports every year, sir.

5

am executing my duties to their satisfaction or beyond their

6

satisfaction.

7

Q.

And they’re writing my fitness

So that’s kind of one way to let me know I

Yeah, and specifically Colonel Choike, when he made this

8

call to you, he told you, hey, we’re not disagreeing with anything

9

you did, you’re not in trouble, we’re not saying you did anything

10

wrong, is that correct?

11

A.

Right, generally, sir, that’s what I can recall.

12

Q.

Now you were at a meeting on 14 January 2011 prior to

13

taking command where Colonel Oltman was present, Captain Hocter was

14

there--

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

----do you recall that?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

And at that meeting do you recall a--kind of a heated

19

discussion between Colonel Oltman and Captain Hocter?

20

A.

I remember there was a little exchange, sir, vaguely.

21

Q.

All right, do you recall Captain Hocter raising the concern

22

that he didn’t understand why PFC Manning was still on POI;

23

prevention of injury?

5470

09363

1

A.

He could have, sir.

I wasn’t very close to them.

It was

2

on the mess deck where we had that meeting at.

3

not taken over the brig yet.

4

to be all in the forefront or answering questions.

5

on--on--I guess the whole POI thing--but, again, that was just one of

6

those times, too, where the discussion of we understand what your

7

role is, understand ours kind of thing.

8

words or whatever, but other people were chiming in as well ‘cause

9

there were quite a few people there.

10
11

Q.

Right.

And, of course, I had

So I just didn’t feel it was my place
It was an issue

So I don’t recall the exact

And this meeting was--when you say mess deck, this

was at the brig, correct?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And how large of a room was this meeting in?

14

A.

It’s pretty big, but it had a wall.

So I would say maybe

15

from where I’m sitting at, sir, to, I’d say, maybe a few pews down or

16

something like that--not as wide though ‘cause, again, it’s a big

17

area.

18

and the other part where the food is served and where the drink

19

machines are.

20

Q.

21
22
23

But there is a wall that separates where they sit down to eat

Would you agree with me from where you sit to a couple of

pews back maybe about 25 feet--30 feet long?
A.

Probably that or less, sir.

guess.

5471

It could be a little less, I

09364

1

Q.

And how--about how wide do you think the room was?

2

A.

Definitely not as wide as the courtroom, sir.

Probably

3

maybe from that wall to about maybe here--to where this little boxed-

4

in area is maybe, sir.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

Probably, sir, I--I mean.

7

Q.

That sound about right to you?

8

A.

It just looks closer in proximity, sir.

9
10
11

And it’s probably 20 feet, maybe?

It could be a

little smaller, a little bigger, sir.
Q.

All right.

So a room where definitely if you’re in the

room you can hear other people speak?

12

A.

Right.

13

Q.

And do you recall Captain Hocter telling Colonel Oltman

14

that he didn’t believe that there was a medical reason for prevention

15

of injury, and preferred that they didn’t keep PFC Manning in

16

prevention of injury?

17

A.

I don’t remember the exact words, sir.

But, again, there

18

were a bunch of other people there--people were kind of talking over

19

each other.

20
21
22
23

Q.

So, to be honest with you, I don’t recall.

Okay, and when you say you don’t recall it’s just I don’t

remember it--it’s not that you don’t think that happened?
A.

I just don’t remember it, sir.

I mean, honestly, you know,

with both of them going back and forth, other people are talking.

5472

09365

1

You got to remember in the brig it’s loud.

2

going also throughout the course of the day announcing different

3

things; work-call, chow, that kind of thing.

4

So to be honest with you, even though, yes, we were all in that room,

5

it’s--you’re not going to hear every single thing, you know.

6

Q.

There are announcements

So--medication calls.

But do you recall Colonel Oltman raising his voice and

7

telling Captain Hocter that, look, nothing’s going to happen to PFC

8

Manning on my watch?

9

A.

10

raised.

11

were kind of talking over each other.

12

that, sir.

13

never told me, hey, he will remain in this custody or this status or

14

anything like that.

15

know, Doctor Hocter was saying to each other as far as whether it was

16

him saying, no, he’ll stay in that, you know, status or not.

17

Q.

Honestly, sir, I don’t remember.
They were exchanging some words.

Again, I remember voices
But, again, other people

So I don’t recall him saying

All I know is from the time I took over to there, he

So, honestly, I don’t recall what him and, you

All right, so I take it from your answer you don’t recall

18

him saying also that our way of making sure of that is he’ll stay in

19

MAX and POI indefinitely.

Do you recall Colonel Oltman saying that?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

And when you say “no” are you saying I don’t remember that

22
23

happening or, no, I don’t--that he didn’t say that?
A.

Sir, if I don’t remember something I’m going to tell you I

5473

09366

1
2

don’t remember.
Q.

And I just explained----

No, that’s what I’m just trying to clarify.

Are you

3

saying, no, I don’t remember, or are you saying, no, that didn’t

4

happen--he didn’t say that?

5

A.

Sir, I’m telling you I don’t remember.

6

Q.

Okay.

7

is your boss?

8

A.

He was my reporting senior, yes, sir.

9

Q.

And if Colonel Oltman wanted PFC Manning to be in MAX and

10
11

Now obviously, as you’ve pointed out, Colonel Oltman

POI, as you said, you would follow that order?
A.

Well, you asked me about General Flynn.

But, okay--but if

12

he did that, again, sir, I would brief him and say, sir, this is

13

against best correctional practices.

14

direct order and telling me to do it, execute.

15

make my own notes to myself.

16

Q.

Okay.

But if you’re giving me a
But, again, I will

Now from this conversation as far as between Captain

17

Hocter and Colonel Malone did you get the sense that there was at

18

least a disagreement with how PFC Manning was being held between

19

Captain Hocter and Colonel Malone--and Colonel Oltman, sorry?

20

A.

Okay, I see what----

21

Q.

I know you don’t recall the conversation, but from

22

witnessing the conversation between Colonel Oltman and Captain

23

Hocter, did you get the sense that there was a disagreement with how

5474

09367

1

PFC Manning was being held?

2

A.

Yes, sir, that’s the sense I got because, again, that

3

wasn’t the only time where the issue came up.

4

with Captain Hocter, but just, again, from either reviewing his books

5

or just getting briefed by the staff, there were some issues there.

6

But, again, there was some sense that, okay, they didn’t agree.

7
8

Q.

Okay.

I mean I never worked

And after that con--after that meeting did you have

a conversation with Chief Averhart?

9

A.

Did I have a conversation with Chief Averhart----

10

Q.

Right, you were doing kind of----

11

A.

----about----

12

Q.

----a--you’re kind of a right seat.

13

A.

We were doing--yeah, we were--I was following him around

14

asking him questions, changing over.

15

him about anything.

16

that--you know, that conversation.

17

was just doing my best to do the changeover and learn and not step on

18

his toes or make decisions on anything, sir.

19

Q.

Right.

I mean, I could have talked to

I don’t recall talking to him specifically about
Again, he still had the brig; I

So what I was asking you is after this meeting do

20

you recall having a conversation with Chief Averhart about what was

21

said?

22
23

A.

I don’t recall, sir.

I mean, again, this is--you know,

during that changeover we talked a lot about different things.

5475

I

09368

1

don’t recall after this meeting having a discussion about him--to him

2

or with him about the meeting, sir.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Now I want to show you again Appellate

4

Exhibit 441S [handing the document to the witness], and retrieving

5

from the witness Appellate Exhibit 441W [retrieving the document from

6

the witness].

7

Q.

You see the original email is from Colonel Choike to who?

8

A.

[Looking at the document] To General Flynn, sir.

9

Q.

And the email is a report from Colonel Choike to General

10

Flynn essentially backing up your decision, would you agree?

11

A.

12

wasn’t on it.

13

Q.

Sure.

14

A.

Thank you.

15
16

[Looking at the document] Let me read the email, sir.
So let me read it and see what it says, okay?

[Pause while the witness read the document.]
A.

Yeah, he’s--he’s just telling him about the issues now with

17

the change of him having his blankets and that kind of thing.

18

that basically the board goes every Friday.

19

handling instructions can be changed at any time based upon his

20

observed ongoing behavior.

21

I

Q.

Right.

And

He’ll remain as is, but

But you see there where Colonel Choike is telling

22

Colonel Flynn--or excuse me, General Flynn what--what has happened.

23

And this email gets to you and you forward it to Master Sergeant

5476

09369

1

Papakie, correct?

2

A.

Right.

3

Q.

And your message to him is “This is what our

4

professionalism, knowledge, and hard work yields.

5

you and the rest of the gang on my staff,” correct?

I’m proud to have

6

A.

Right--yes, sir.

7

Q.

So it was your belief that your professionalism, knowledge,

8

and hard work yielded the support of your superiors; Colonel Choike

9

and how he’s briefing General Flynn, correct?

10

A.

Well, not just in that, but just in general, hey, look,

11

when we work hard, do the right things, and the leadership sees that,

12

it reflects good on us.

13

not the first time I’ve emailed Master Sergeant or the staff to tell

14

them, hey, good call--it happened--and things that had nothing to do

15

with Manning.

16

routinely send when there’re issues.

17

with a visitor breaching security--making a big deal in the brig--

18

disturbing the good order and discipline.

19

said, the guys were very professional.

20

next day--told them basically the same thing.

21

Q.

That’s--that was basically my gist.

This is

So this kind of email is something that I would
For example; we had an issue

No matter what that lady

When I was briefed on it the

Yeah, but in this email I guess what you’re sending out to

22

your subordinates is that Colonel Choike agrees and is at least

23

briefing General Flynn that he agrees with what is happening and how

5477

09370

1

PFC Manning is being handled, correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate

4

Exhibit 441S [retrieving the document from the witness], and I’m

5

handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441Y [handing the document to

6

the witness].

7

Q.

And just a--a few days later--this is a 9 March 2011 email.

8

You were forwarded an email chain, which contained emails from many

9

individuals including Major General Ary, correct?

10

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And you in turn forward this email to Master Sergeant

12

Papakie?

13

A.

I did, sir.

14

Q.

And you wrote [reading from the document] the big thing is

15

that Major General Ary is saying that he thinks we are doing business

16

the right way, correct?

17

A.

That’s correct, sir.

18

Q.

So you took the statement as validation from at least a--

19

the highest military attorney in the Marine Corps that your decision

20

to have--to remove PFC Manning’s underwear was the correct one?

21

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me just take a minute to scan

22

through these chains of email.

23

things were covered in here.

It seems like a couple of different

5478

09371

1

[Pause while the witness read through the document.]

2

A.

3

did say that.

4

Q.

5

Yes, in some parts of the email string--yes, General Ary

So you took basically this email chain as a validation that

your decision was the correct one?

6

A.

I don’t think it’s my--my decision to remove his underwear,

7

sir.

8

the facility’s running.

9

the most part all the facilities are running properly.

If you look at the email chain, it’s kind of in general on how
Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz said that for
So I’m sure

10

that’s one of the things.

But just in general--the way the pretrial

11

facility is run in general, they were also taking about that.

12

this email--when I forwarded that to Master Sergeant was just to

13

basically say, hey, you know, they think we’re doing business the

14

right way.

15

with a host of dignitaries to see the facility, ask questions--they

16

were all satisfied.

17

from being threatened, from these protests, and all these things that

18

occur--I mean, I feel it’s nice to let them know, even though I tell

19

them myself, hey, you’re doing a good job every day--and it’s not

20

just about Manning--just in general.

21

see or hear that somebody outside the brig at that level who’s

22

getting briefed by the head of corrections that, hey, they’re doing

23

business the right way.

So

I mean--he’s--General Ary had came down to the brig along

But, again, when you’re staff is under stress

But I guess it’s good when they

I mean it helps to--me personally--my

5479

09372

1

opinion, it just helps to, one, help them maintain that level of

2

professionalism and make them just as eager, if not more eager, to

3

continue to be professional.

4
5

Q.

All right.

But obviously Major General Ary, when he came

down to the brig, it was because of PFC Manning, correct?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And you write [reading from the document] FYI, the big

8

thing is that Major General Ary is saying that he thinks we’re doing

9

business the right way.

10

Are you saying that’s referring to

everything in general or referring to Manning?

11

A.

Honestly, just in general, not just related to Manning----

12

because him along with the other dignitaries did not just ask us

13

about Manning.

14

facility, what are the policies for this, they asked about rec call,

15

they asked about things like chow.

16

eat in the chow hall just about every day because that allows me to

17

see, okay, if I’m eating this this is what I know the detainees are

18

eating that kind of thing.

19

the main reason for the visit?

20

Ary and the other dignitaries--they didn’t just have questions on his

21

handling.

22

well.

23

They asked us about, you know, things we did in the

So when they understood that I

So to be very honest, yes--was Manning
Yes he was.

But they--Major General

For example; they asked about a lot of other things as

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate

5480

09373

1

Exhibit 441Y [retrieving the document from the witness], and handing

2

the witness Appellate Exhibit 441Z [handing the document to the

3

witness].

4

Q.

Now this is an email that you received basically from

5

Lieutenant General Flynn.

6

Waterboarding.”

7

to portray my client as a victim.

8
9

A.
sir.

He sent an email that he entitled “Hardly

It basically said that I was masterminding a scheme
Do you recall this email?

[Looking at the document] Let me correct you real quick,

He didn’t email me.

I got that email from Colonel Oltman.

10

Q.

Oh, I know.

11

A.

Well you said General Flynn, sir.

12

is clear----

13

Q.

Sure.

14

A.

----that he didn’t email me, okay?

15

Q.

Oh, that’s clear.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

All right, so you see the email where General Flynn

18

I’ll cover that.
So I just want to make

forwards up to Colonel Oltman and Colonel Choike and others----

19

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

20

Q.

----and he says hardly waterboarding.

21

A.

[Looking at the document] That’s the title, sir.

22

again, I didn’t--it’s been awhile, sir.

23

to see what else he’s discussing.

5481

Do you see that?
But,

I’ll have to read the email

09374

1

Q.

Go right ahead.

2

A.

Okay.

3

[Pause while the witness read the document.]

4

A.

Yes, the article from the daily news--it looks like that’s

5

what he had forwarded and--that’s what the subject line said.

6

looks like the article was forwarded from somewhere.

But it

7

Q.

And Colonel Oltman then sends it to you, correct?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And then you forward it to Master Sergeant Papakie, Gunny

10

Sergeant Blenis, and Gunny Sergeant Fuller?

11

A.

That’s correct, sir.

12

Q.

And I imagine you took this as further validation that you

13

didn’t do anything wrong?

14

A.

I mean I wouldn’t go so far to say I took that as

15

validation I didn’t do anything wrong.

16

article--that is a journalist or somebody’s opinion on what’s going

17

on.

18

tell anybody else.

19

them to see, okay, this journalist from this paper is saying, you

20

know, okay, hardly waterboarding.

21

me.

22

reading.

23

where, you know--and, you know, I guess it would be kind of hard for

I mean when you read the

Naturally I don’t know what your client tells you or what you
But, again, this is just an article, yes, for

I don’t agree with it.

And this kind of behavior disturbs

It’s not something that you enjoy

But at the same time, again, it’s just one of those things

5482

09375

1

you to imagine, sir--I’m not being facetious or anything like that,

2

but I guess when you go through that type of stress every day, and I

3

still demand that they’re professionals--that kind of thing, it’s

4

good to see that, you know, despite what’s reported in the media--

5

okay, well maybe one person decided this--this is not an Abu Ghraib.

6

The Marine Corps hasn’t had torture of detainees anywhere.

7

matter of fact, when I was deployed, I was a detentions evaluation

8

assessment program OIC.

9

detainees over there, regardless of what the charge--what the charges

As a

And my job was to make sure that those

10

were, were handled properly.

11

inspected the--the--the detainee collection points, these kinds of

12

things, I was very big on how they were treated.

13

action reports--and that’s one of the jobs I really took pride in

14

doing.

15

Q.

Okay.

So whether I went on convoys, whether I

Submitted after

So I want to go back for a moment to I guess your

16

statements of professionalism, knowledge, and hard work of your

17

staff.

Okay?

18

A.

Okay, sir.

19

Q.

Now in your opinion was Master Sergeant Papakie

20

professional?

21

A.

Yeah, with my interactions with him, sir.

22

Q.

And as far as Master Sergeant Papakie, I imagine you

23

trusted his opinions, correct?

5483

09376

1

A.

I did, sir.

I mean, he’d been in close to 20 years, maybe

2

a little bit more.

3

Collection Unit, I was at the brig at Lejeune at the time, and I had

4

to do a lot of business with him on the phone.

5

him be very professional, knowledgeable.

6

I hear he was doing a good job there as well.

7

Q.

And I’ve--I--when he was at the Marine Absentee

I always remembered

Saw him in Iraq.

From what

So.

Now on 4 March after you started removing PFC Manning’s

8

underwear at night, did you ask Master Sergeant Papakie to ensure

9

that PFC Manning was given his panties back before he lays down?

10

A.

I didn’t say that, sir.

11

Q.

So the word “panties” would not be a word that you would

13

A.

No, sir.

14

Q.

And is that a term that Marines use for male underwear?

15

A.

I know some drill instructors--they--from what I

12

use?

16

understood, you know, they’ll make, you know, jokes about that kind

17

of thing.

18

But me personally, I wouldn’t say, hey, make sure his panties are

19

removed at night.

Or they’ll say skivvies--they call it different things.

20

Q.

Why wouldn’t you say that?

21

A.

I mean I prefer to say underwear, sir.

22

simple.

23

Q.

It’s just that

Well would you consider using the word “panties” to refer

5484

09377

1
2
3

to PFC Manning’s underwear as professional?
A.

Of course not, sir.

Whether it was the term they used with

recruits or anybody.

4

Q.

And why is that?

5

A.

Again, sir, I just--it is underwear.

Whether it’s boxer

6

shorts, whether it’s females’ panties, whatever, there’s a clear

7

difference.

8
9

Q.

So I--I prefer the term underwear, period.

Did you know that Master Sergeant Papakie called PFC

Manning’s underwear panties to his subordinates; Gunny Sergeant

10

Blenis, Staff Sergeant, I guess, Bofo [phonetic], Staff Sergeant

11

Buck, and Gunny Sergeant Fuller?

12

A.

I wasn’t aware of that, sir.

13

Q.

Now if you had known of that what would be your reaction?

14

A.

Obviously I would tell them, hey, don’t refer to them as

15
16

panties.
Q.

I mean--it’s not fun--I don’t think it’s funny, sir.
Okay.

And you also indicated that two of the most

17

important people at the brig, at least for PFC Manning to speak to,

18

would be yourself and to his counselor, correct?

19

A.

I--yes, sir.

20

Q.

And PFC Manning’s counselor was Gunny Sergeant Blenis?

21

A.

That’s right, sir.

22

Q.

And you believe that the role of a counselor is to be an

23

I recall saying that, sir.

advocate for the detainee?

5485

09378

1

A.

That’s right, sir.

2

Q.

Someone that the detainee can trust and open up to?

3

A.

Yes, I would say so, sir.

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Appellate

5

Exhibit 441Z [retrieving the document from the witness], handing the

6

witness Appellate Exhibit 441AA [handing the document to the

7

witness].

8
9

TC[MAJ FEIN]: Ma’am, objection.

The witness is not on this

email----

10

MJ:

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]: ----and it’s predated her even arriving at

12
13
14
15

May I see it, please?

Quantico.
MJ:

And what’s the point of this?

It’s already been gone

through with the other witnesses.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

The point, ma’am, would be that she

16

testified about Gunny Sergeant Blenis’ ultimate professionalism.

17

so I’d want to see whether or not this would, I guess, in her opinion

18

question his professionalism.

19

MJ:

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

And

Hand it to the court, please?
Yes, Your Honor.

That’s your copy [handing

the document to the military judge].

22

MJ:

Overruled.

23

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m handing the courtroom exhibits to the

5486

09379

1

court reporter.

2

[Examination of the witness continued.]

3
4

Q.

Now as the trial counsel pointed out you--this was before

your time, but have--have you ever see this email?

5

A.

[Looking at the document] Obviously not, sir.

6

Q.

Well, I don’t know.

7

A.

[Looking at the document] No I have not.

I just--have you ever seen the email?

8

email.

9

everything he talks about with his staff.

10

Q.

I mean----

I’m not on the

And Chief Warrant Officer Averhart don’t talk to me about
I mean.

Now in this email chain Gunny Sergeant Blenis talks about

11

sending back a package that they believe might have been a birthday

12

gift for PFC Manning.

13

And then he ends it because we “felt like being dicks.”

14

that?

And he talks about the various reasons why.
Do you see

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

16

Q.

And, again, in this instance would you consider that a

17
18

professional action by Gunny Sergeant Blenis?
A.

I mean, sir, obviously it’s an unprofessional comment.

19

main point was that he told the CO why that package was returned;

20

obviously for his safety.

21

had to have EOD scan it at the post office.

22

something, sir----

23

Q.

The

Do you understand that some packages we

[Responded in the affirmative.]

5487

Let me tell you

09380

1

A.

----I don’t take this crap lightly.

Okay?

2

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

3

A.

The point is, you know--and we felt like being dicks,

4

excuse me, is--is not professional.

5

sit here for an hour and discuss that.

6

going to use now to say after all the years off and on of knowing

7

Gunny Sergeant Blenis and him working for me and looking at the

8

products that I got from him every day not just with him handling

9

Detainee Manning, but other people, I’m not going to take this one

10

little comment now--all of a sudden he’s not so professional, he’s

11

not the Marine staff NCO I want on my staff.

12

I told you again, it’ll be a very welcomed opportunity to work with

13

him again.

14

highlighting all the stuff he’s done.

15

which we all can agree is not professional, if you want me to say

16

that that’s going to change my mind and think he’s so unprofessional-

17

-I have no confidence in him as a Marine staff NCO, you’re not going

18

to get me to say that.

19

Q.

We know that.

I’m not going to

But that is not something I’m

Like I told you before,

Before he left, he got a Navy commendation medal.

Again,

So if one comment like this,

Well--and I’m not trying to get you to say that.

But Chief

20

Averhart indicated that he counseled Gunny Sergeant Blenis on this.

21

Would you have done the same?

22

A.

Obviously, sir, yes.

I mean----

23

Q.

And would you have removed Gunny Sergeant Blenis as PFC

5488

09381

1

Manning’s counselor after this?

2

A.

No, sir, I would not have.

3

Q.

And why not?

4

A.

Because, again, this is one small comment--okay--one small

5

comment.

The bottom line is, that package--the most important thing

6

to me is that some package, which was delivered not the correct way

7

by the U.S. Postal Service--that’s the biggest issue to me.

8

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

9

A.

I don’t know what’s in there.

I don’t want something to

10

friggin’ explode and hurt Manning or the staff.

11

thing to me.

12

hey, let’s not refer to that--and, again, you know, even the email

13

you just cited from Master Sergeant to the DBS’s; did you see me on

14

that email?

15

that.

16
17

Q.

Okay?

No.

Okay.

Now--yes, I would have corrected him and said,

Maybe he--he figured, okay, she doesn’t joke like

Now you--you indicated that you would have had EOD

look at packages, and you’ve done that in the past, right?

18

A.

There was--there was an incidence once where a package came

19

in.

20

not good with that.

21

did scan that package.

22
23

That’s the biggest

It was very unusual.

Q.

And the post office called us.

They were

And, yes, we did have to call ATFP and, yes, EOD

Now my understanding is if--if a package got to you in a

way that would not be the ordinary, and you scan the package and it

5489

09382

1

was cleared, would you then return the package or would you give the

2

detainee the opportunity to accept the package?

3

A.

Well for one, sir, if they just walk up to the brig to hand

4

us something, no, we will not accept it.

5

sure it says right here--because for the most part you have to

6

understand detainees are given their--the mailing address here.

7

They’re told do not put detainee or prisoner so and so.

8

understand when packages come in they need to be approved ahead of

9

time, whether it’s books, whether it’s hygiene items, whatever the

They

10

case is.

11

up--and they tell their families that because they get mail the right

12

way through the postal system--the mail clerk goes down there.

13

for somebody to just walk up, hey, give this to Manning; no, we’re

14

not going to put him at risk like that.

15

Q

So the inmates all know that.

The thing about it is--I’m

So for somebody to just walk

So

No, the situation I think was that UPS had dropped it off

16

to a construction worker that was outside the front of the brig at

17

the time the brig had construction going on.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

And so the construction worker just brought it to the

20

front.

21

receive a package you’re not aware of that--do you give opportunity

22

to the Soldier then to look at the package and try to accept it?

23

A.

I just wanted to understand from you standpoint if you

It’s rejected.

No, sir.

5490

Again, especially with an

09383

1

instance like this, for one, UPS and FedEx, they’ve come to the brig

2

before, and they always know to come inside to the staff.

3

them to even give it to somebody out there, that’s--that’s very odd.

4

Q.

Okay.

So for

And with regards to Gunny Sergeant Blenis, did you

5

know that he referred to the weekly report as the Manning Times and

6

something that would warm you if you were to read it?

7

A.

I don’t recall him saying anything like that to me.

8

Q.

Would you consider referring to the weekly report as a

9
10

Manning Times to be professional?
A.

I mean, sir, anybody can take that any different way.

11

again, if he says it, I would say, well, what do you mean?

12

are you referring to it like that?

But,

Or why

But, again, sir, [pause]

13

Q.

Go on.

I’m sorry.

14

A.

I mean--but, again, what--okay, if he says--if he refers to

15

some--the progress report as the Weekly Manning Times--again, sir,

16

you have to understand something, even though these things--with

17

comments like that could seem, okay, they’re a little bit

18

unprofessional, but at the end of the day, if--and I’m not saying I

19

condone a lot of unprofessionalism--what I’m saying if they make

20

little jokes like that--yes, would I say something?

21

same time it’s not something that they’ll be severely punished for.

22

I mean, maybe with the stress and everything else that’s going on the

23

facility, if joking maybe was their way to deal with it, who knows.

5491

Yes.

But at the

09384

1
2
3

Q.

Well would these jokes be condoned if they’re at the

expense of PFC Manning?
A.

I mean I just told you, sir, I didn’t think those things

4

were funny.

5

things you pointed out wasn’t even said to me.

6

told you, you know, if I came across it, I would say, hey, you know,

7

knock it off.

8

about Manning or telling, you know, hey, in the latest edition of the

9

Manning Times--I mean, come on, sir.

10

All I’m telling you is if--and, again, some of the
So, again, like I

I mean nobody’s going outside the brig making jokes

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right.

I’m retrieving from the witness

11

Appellate Exhibit 441AA [retrieving the document from the witness],

12

and handing the witness Appellate Exhibit 441AB [handing the document

13

to the witness].

14

Q.

This is an email from Gunny Sergeant Blenis to you saying

15

attached is the latest Manning Times.

16

on that email?

17

A.

Did you do any actions based

[Looking at the document] Honestly, sir, I’m--I probably

18

said something to him because I’m also forward--when he sends those,

19

you know, you look at the Subject: Manning Report, double-click the

20

attachment--that was my biggest--in getting to the attachment.

21

looking at it--for me to say, you know, yes I definitely said, hey,

22

Gunny, knock this off.

23

could have addressed, but it’s not something--again, I see the

So

Or, no,--again, it’s probably something I

5492

09385

1

subject report--the subject line says Manning Report, open the

2

attachment real quick.

3

Q.

Okay, but if I understand you correctly, that would be

4

something that you would counsel Gunny Sergeant Blenis on to knock it

5

off?

6

A.

I mean I wouldn’t--yeah, I would just say, hey, you know,

7

this is not the Manning Times or whatever the case is or something

8

like that.

9

not something that when outside, you know, security battalion--

But, again, sir, in the grand scheme of things, this is

10

outside to Colonel Oltman--again, see the subject line, double-click

11

the attachment--my thing is, hey, let me hurry up and read this.

12

me see if he had visitors; that kind of thing.

13

say, you know, every single time he sent it, you know, to read that--

14

but that’s something if I would have caught it or saw it at the time,

15

that’s something I would have said something to him about.

16
17
18
19

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay.

So to be honest and

I’m retrieving from the witness

Appellate Exhibit 441AB [retrieving the document from the witness].
Q.

I want to ask you a few questions about the SECNAV

Instruction, okay?

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

And so I’m going to hand you Enclosure 47 to Appellate

22
23

Let

Exhibit 259 [handing the document to the witness].
A.

All right.

5493

09386

1

MJ:

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

3

Q.

4

What are you looking at?
The SECNAV Instruction, ma’am.

Now we have had some testimony, and you’ve referred to it

as well, of prevention of injury, correct?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And I want to ask you under the SECNAV Instruction where

7

that falls under, okay?

8

A.

Okay.

9

Q.

So if you would turn to Page 104, it should be towards the

10

very back, Chief.

11

[The witness did as directed.]

12

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

13

Q.

And do you see that--you’re dealing in the section of

14
15

administrative segregation, is that correct?
A.

[Looking at the document] Let me look at this real quick.

16

Well it’s talking about that Section 4205 talking about Special

17

Quarters--and just that some prisoners require additional

18

supervision, yes.

19
20
21

Q.

Right.

That section is the administrative segregation

section, is that--is that correct?
A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, part of it talks about a

22

hearing to determine the need for continued administrative

23

segregation.

5494

09387

1

Q.

And do you--do you see where administrative segregation is

2

appropriate--what they--what they say would be--when that would be

3

appropriate?

4

A.

[Looking at the document] Well let me take a look here.

5

MJ:

Are you looking at 104?

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

MJ:

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9

That’s entitled “Special Quarters.”

WIT: Well it’s----

11

MJ:

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

Right.

That’s the administrative

segregation section of the reg.

10

13

Page 104, ma’am.

Why don’t we call it what the SECNAV Instructions call it?
Sure.

Even within the special quarters it

refers to it as administrative segregation, correct?
WIT:

Well, special quarters is not referred to as

15

administrative segregation.

16

again, it--just in special quarters in general--‘cause as I explained

17

the other day, most facilities, the prisoners for the most part after

18

indoc, they live in a dorm or single cells.

19

rem--the ones that remain in special quarters could be for medical

20

segregation, escape risk, POI, SR, prevention--or protective custody;

21

those kinds of things.

22
23

Q.

Right.

This paragraph here is talking about,

And the ones that are

So.

So generally what would happen is--and I know

Quantico is slightly different ----

5495

09388

1

A.

Right.

2

Q.

---- but generally you would have a--your MDI’s in general

3
4

population where it would be open bay type issue, correct?
A.

Well previously--prior to 2010, before it was downgraded to

5

a PCF, then, yes, that’s how it would be.

6

entire time there, to my knowledge, it was already determined that

7

all of the inmates would be housed in special quarters.

8
9
10

Q.

Right.

But, again, his--Manning’s

And then special quarters prior to kind of like the

change, special quarters was for your--you administrative
segregation; either your medical ----

11

A.

Right.

12

Q.

---- or prevention of injury.

13

A.

Right.

14

Q.

Okay.

Is that correct?

So I’d like you to look at the--the section dealing

15

with prevention of injury.

16

used by you, the Brig OIC, for prevention of injury?

Do you see where special quarters can be

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Oh, yeah.

18

Q.

And so basically this--could you explain to me from your

19

perspective as a Brig OIC when you would use admin’ segregation or

20

special quarters for prevention of injury in general--on in this

21

case, but just in general?

22

A.

I’m not quite sure what you’re asking me, sir.

23

Q.

So as a Brig OIC ----

5496

09389

1

A.

Uh-huh.

2

Q.

---- just from your prospective, when would you use special

3

quarters for prevention of injury--just in general--not dealing with

4

PFC Manning, but in general.

5

A.

If they’re in POI, sir, then, yes, we will place--if you’re

6

talking about a brig--a regular brig prior to--not how Quantico is or

7

was before it closed--but if you’re talking about a standard Level 1

8

facility where they’re special quarters and their living quarters for

9

the rest of the population.

10

If you’re asking me in a jail that’s set

up like that ----

11

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

12

A.

---- then, yes, I would use special quarters for POI for

13

any administrative segregation; again, medical segregation, POI, or

14

something like that.

15

Q.

16

moment.

17

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay.

18

Q.

Where it talks about all prisoners in special quarters

19

Okay, and I’d like you to look on Page 105 just for a

shall be under continual supervision.

20

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

21

Q.

[Reading from the document] Special precautions shall be

22

taken in equipping, inspecting, and supervising their quarters,

23

prevent escape, self-injury, and other serious incidences.

5497

09390

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

[Reading from the document] They shall be sighted at least

3

once every 15 minutes by a staff member and shall be visited daily by

4

a member of the medical department and the BRIG O.

5

A.

Okay.

6

Q.

[Reading from the document] In addition, it is highly

7

desirable that prisoners in special quarters be visited daily by a

8

chaplain.

9

A.

Uh-huh.

10

Q.

Now in this instance it says that somebody from the medical

11

department has to visit the detainee every--every day when they’re in

12

special quarters, right?

13
14

A.

daily by a member of the medical department.

15
16

[Reading from the document] Yes, sir; shall be visited

Q.

And it also says that’s highly desirable to have the

chaplain visit every day ----

17

A.

Uh-huh.

18

Q.

---- if possible?

19

A.

That’s right, sir.

20

Q.

And then, finally, to have you as the BRIG O visit every

22

A.

Uh-huh.

23

Q.

And why as a corrections expert would you say that you want

21

day?

5498

09391

1

to have a medical--somebody from the medical department, the

2

chaplain, if possible, and the Brig OIC visit a detainee who’s in

3

admin’ segregation or special quarters?

4

A.

Well just--to be honest, sir, when they come to the

5

facility they look at everybody.

Okay, I know this is talking about

6

special quarters, but they just mean more so for the ones who are

7

not, I guess, in general population ‘cause those prisoners, they

8

would be out and about working, maybe outside the facility, on the

9

mess deck, whatever, but obviously, you know, the ones that are in

10

special quarters normally are MAX custody inmates, some of them are

11

not MAX custody inmates, however, they are medic--medical seg’ or if

12

they are POI or SR--yeah, it’s desirable to have these members come--

13

obviously the chaplain--I like that inmates still get to maintain

14

their religion.

15

who weren’t, you know--like say for example an inmate who’s a Muslim,

16

for example, we know that the--the chaplain is not an Islamic

17

chaplain, however, we would tell him, hey, Chaplain Rosenthal, could

18

you call D.C. or call around and get an imam to come to the brig;

19

that kind of thing.

20

personally ‘cause whether they confine--they’re confined or not, they

21

need to still exercise their religion, and we make provisions.

22

had Islamic inmates at various brigs I’ve worked at before.

23

during Ramadan when they had to pray--get up early; we made

As a matter of fact, if--well when we had detainees

So I think it’s important--it’s important

5499

We’ve

We knew

09392

1

provisions for that.

2

than when the other prisoners got up--reveille and all that kind of

3

stuff.

4

have oatmeal or something quick for them to have before that.

5

also realized that they need to eat because they have to fast.

6

we made sure that even though to mess hall was already shut down, we

7

always made sure that they had food ready and fruit to break the

8

fast.

9

for my personal practices, but for inmates as well.

10

We’ve had chow ready for ‘em.

It was earlier

But, again, we took the measures, which was just easy, to
We
But

So as far as the religion piece; that’s very big to me--just
They need to

have that opportunity.

11

As far as the medical officer; that’s very important.

I

12

get upset if I find out they’re out of med’s or somebody’s refill--

13

prescription wasn’t refilled on time; that kind of thing.

14

on the medical staff, we would have the junior corpsman come twice a

15

day for medication call to give out prescribed med’s, but also for

16

sick call.

17

once a week or more as needed because the thing is we don’t have a

18

medical officer, as Commander Buie, totally dedicated to the brig.

19

He has patients to see at OCS.

20

Candidate School--certain times throughout the year, they also have

21

candidates that they need to see.

22

were a few other providers that, if the one who was assigned to the

23

brig couldn’t make it, we would get some other provider to come in.

So, again,

And, again, the medical officer himself, he would come by

You’re well aware that Officer

5500

But, at the end of the day, there

09393

1

So.

2
3

Q.

Okay.

And so having the requirement of someone from the

medical department ----

4

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

5

Q.

---- every day, a chaplain highly desirable every day, and

6

you every day, would you agree with me that, at least under SECNAV,

7

the admin’ segregation or the special quarters is deemed to be

8

something that isn’t long term necessarily.

9

that?

10

A.

I mean, yes.

Would you agree with

Prisoners get reviewed all the time.

So

11

there’s never a thing where when somebody’s in special quarters--in

12

that custody, for example, MAXs or whatever, you know, no, there’s no

13

set, hey, they’re in there indefinitely so let’s make sure we have

14

all these people coming on.

That’s just standard practice.

So.

15

Q.

In--in your experience as--aside from PFC Manning ----

16

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

17

Q.

---- as the Brig OIC, what was the longest you’ve had

18
19

somebody in prevention of injury?
A.

I mean I’ve had some, you know, at other facilities--maybe

20

not as long as him, to be honest with you.

21

to that length of time.

22

back over the years.

23

Q.

But we’ve had some close

You know, it’s kind of hard to say going

But as far as ----

What about at Quantico when you were the Brig OIC?

5501

09394

1
2
3
4
5

A.

When I was there, to be honest, no, we did not have any--

have anybody in POI for the exact length of time as him.
Q.

What was the longest you had someone in POI as the Brig OIC

other than PFC Manning?
A.

Under my watch, I think, maybe a few days or no more than a

6

couple of weeks or something like that.

7

of different ones, so it’s kind of hard to say.

8

sure that it hasn’t been the 7 months or 9 months.

9
10
11

We had ----

Q.

Again, sir, we had a bunch
But I do know for

And do you recall Colonel Malone telling you that being on

POI for PFC Manning was an additional stressor for him?
A.

I don’t recall that.

He--I remember us having a

12

conversation, you know, and I recall just talking about different

13

stressors--‘cause for me--I was just saying--‘cause I think he had

14

made a comment about, I guess, if he would just seeing him--like

15

let’s say he was back at his command, it would be like routine, just

16

come in, outpatient kind of thing.

17

about, well, yeah, but that’s different ‘cause here now he has

18

stressors.

19

professional, just the fact that, okay, he can maybe get to watch a

20

certain channel or he can’t get to, well, I’ll just go ride my bike

21

on the trails tomorrow; he can’t do that.

22

itself can be a stressor.

23

mentioned, you know--it was something about--I don’t recall if he

But I--I remember talking to him

So even though we’re doing our job and being

So to me confinement

And I think Doctor Malone may have

5502

09395

1

said that exactly, but I remember it was some conversation where he

2

was trying to get at--when he was just--I guess trying to help us

3

explain like how he thinks or--or certain things like that.

4

don’t recall if he said, you know, that could be a stressor.

5

have, to be very honest.

6

conversations was what harm is that causing?

7

that.

So I
He may

But my main concern though with those
And I need to know

And I need to know that ASAP.

8

Q.

All right.

And after PFC Manning left ----

9

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

10

Q.

---- from Quantico, did you ever receive any sort of

11

guidance from PSL on being able to put POI detainees in MDI as

12

opposed to POI automatically meant MAX?

13

A.

Yes.

I don’t recall if it was after he left--it could have

14

been before.

15

-can’t remember who or how it came up--and basically his conversation

16

was, hey, I know in the past--and he said even him himself as a CO,

17

you know, people have all done it, but basically because of the

18

restrictions that are in place, they usually tie--if somebody is,

19

let’s say, SR/POI they’ll automatically make them a MAX.

20

was because of the same--basically if you look at a MAX that’s no POI

21

or SR and somebody else that’s POI, the restrictions are kind of the

22

same.

23

do administrative segregation and don’t tie the custody to POI or SR.

But Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz was asked a question-

And that

So he just came out with something that says, hey, look, let’s

5503

09396

1

And, again, he just kind of made it a point, yeah, over the years

2

we’ve all done it, but, again, somebody asked him about it; I’m not

3

sure who, and he came out with that guidance.

4

scheme of things that you make--when you think about it, if somebody

5

comes in for like, let’s say, one count of 86 and they’re just fine,

6

you know, they wouldn’t be in MAX anyway unless there’s a lot of

7

flags in the history or something like that.

8

out with something saying that--that we should not automatically tie

9

ER--I mean--I’m sorry, POI/SR to MAX.

10

Q.

So--and in the grand

So, yes, he did some

And prior to that coming out, am I correct that the

11

standard practice was if you were in POI or SR you would--you would

12

be in MAX?

Was that the default?

13

A.

Yes, sir--from my experience, yes.

14

Q.

And so after this, you know--I guess guidance coming from

15

Chief Galaviz ----

16

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

17

Q.

---- did you ever have somebody that was POI or SR and was

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And can you tell me about that?

22

A.

I’m not going to say the name ----

23

Q.

---- don’t tell me the person’s name, but just--yes.

18

21

MDI?

You don’t have to tell me

----

5504

09397

1

A.

---- but basically after that guidance came out--I can’t

2

remember if the person was already there or if it was somebody who

3

actually came into the facility--got confined after that.

4

discussed it.

5

letter.

6

seem weird ‘cause, again, when I’m not there the duty brig supervisor

7

is in charge 24 hours--so I made it a point--Master Sergeant Papakie

8

and I--even Gunny Blenis and the rest of the staff--I just kind of

9

sat down and said, hey, this is how we’re supposed to do business.

But we

We implemented the changes; changed the handling

And I spoke to the staff and I said, hey, this is going to

10

From now on let’s make sure that the--the duty brig supervisor’s

11

fully briefed and his staff is--just so they understand it’s not a

12

mistake, you know, on the handling letter.

13

recall.

It could have been more.

14

change.

And as a matter of fact, when I was updating the SOP for my

15

signature that was one of the things that I made sure I changed.

16
17

Q.

So there was one that I

But I do recall making that

And how did that work out having somebody in--was it POI or

SR the person was in?

Do you recall?

18

A.

I don’t recall, sir.

19

Q.

But how did that work out, I guess, regardless of which one

20
21

it was, having them in that and MDI?
A.

I mean, sir, to be honest the res--like the five minute

22

checks; that was still there, you know, that kind of thing.

23

just the custody was not MAX.

But it’s

So, therefore, when he would leave his

5505

09398

1

cell, yes--would he be under constant supervision as any other POI?

2

Yes.

3

restraint.

4

not tied to the POI or SR.

5

special quarters, yes, would he be escorted?

6

facility, for example, would not go into lockdown all these other

7

things that we would normally do for MAX custody, sir.

8
9

But medium in the facility they’re not required to be in

Q.

So it was just one of those things where his custody was
So, therefore, like if he had to leave
Of course.

But the

And, Chief, did--because the individual’s on MDI did that

allow them to also eat with other detainees ----

10

A.

No, sir.

11

Q.

---- or did they still eat in their own cell?

12

A.

All the--all the handling was the same.

I mean, we didn’t

13

say, okay, just because you’re not a MAX we’re going to now let you

14

have silverware and all of that.

15
16

Q.

No.

No, I just meant like could they--could they eat in the

cafeteria ----

17

A.

No, sir.

18

Q.

---- eat with a spoon?

19

A.

No, sir.

If they were POI, again, we would bring them out

20

obviously for attorney visits, you know, if the chaplain wanted to

21

see ‘em--we would bring them out to that room and things like that.

22

But, again, they were not, again, mixed in with--with the other

23

inmates who would, you know, be on the mess deck or something.

5506

09399

1

Q.

And what about for rec call?

Were they allowed ----

2

A.

They were still ----

3

Q.

---- to rec ----

4

A.

---- yep, they were still given rec call.

Again, the

5

restrictions that are in place do not include things like, okay,

6

recreation call--well, we’re not going to give you recreation call --

7

--

8

Q.

No, I meant were they able ----

9

A.

---- like that.

10

Q.

---- to do rec call with everyone else or ----

11

A.

No, sir, again ----

12

Q.

---- do they still do it by themself?

13

A.

---- you know, we try to--even though they’re not MAXs--and

14

that guy really wasn’t at the brig very long--I do remember that.

15

But, again, you know, even though he wasn’t a MAX, he was still on

16

POI or SR--I can’t remember which one--so was in his cell for most of

17

the day.

18

hygiene time, and everything like that.

19

when they’re still being evaluated by the MO, we--again, they--they

20

weren’t mixed with general populations though.

He was still given all his--all his, you know, chow,

21

Q.

22

WIT: I need to take a break.

23

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

But, you know, especially

Just a last couple of questions ---Is this going to be quick?

Yeah--no--

5507

09400

1

WIT: Okay.

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

3

WIT: All right.

4

Q.

5
6

---- yeah--I hope it is.

The--the guidance; do you recall when that might have come

out from Chief Galaviz?
A.

To be very honest, sir, I don’t remember.

It could have

7

came out--I think it might have came out before PFC Manning left the-

8

-it’s hard to say.

9

though him--as soon as he put the guidance out, making the change.

I don’t have a date, sir.

10

But I think it was before he came out.

11

obviously have to look at the email.

12
13

Q.

All right.

But I--I do remember

I’m not for sure.

I would

And--and then when did you begin relinquish

Brig OIC?

14

A.

When did what?

15

Q.

When were you no longer the Brig OIC?

16

A.

Well the brig itself closed for acceptance of prisoner 31

17

December of last year.

And so for all intents and purposes my job

18

was done.

19

I became the Deputy Command Inspector General, I was still--we were

20

doing the shutdown, getting all the assets back to the battalion and

21

gear back to PSO; that kind of thing.

22

purposes my job as a brig OIC at Quantico stopped 31 December.

23

had no more prisoners.

After that--between 1 January and the end of February when

So for all intents and

They were all transferred, sir.

5508

We

09401

1
2
3

Q.

Okay, and even though you can’t pinpoint when this order

was it was definitely before 31 December?
A.

Oh, oh, way before that, sir.

‘Cause, again, I remember

4

having that detainee--and the DBSs kind of said, wow, you know, for

5

this--this is practice now you have to undo ‘cause, again, it was

6

kind of standard--but I do remember it came out--again, it could have

7

even came out when PFC Manning was still there, you know.

8

again, I don’t--for me to tell you, okay, that email came out, you

9

know, February the 19th or April the 30th, I can’t say that.

10
11
12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:
have right now.
MJ:

But,

And, ma’am, if--that’s all the questions I

Can we have a 10 minute comfort break?

Court is in recess until 11 o’clock.

13

[The Article 39(a) recessed at 1051, 10 December 2012.]

14

[The Article 39(a) was called to order at 1303, 10 December 2012.]

15

MJ:

The Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

16

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

17

again present in court.

18

court reporting equipment?

19
20

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

The court reporting equipment is fully

functional now, ma’am.

21

MJ:

22

this morning?

23

Captain von Elten, what is the status of the

All right, has it captured everything that has transpired

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Yes it has, ma’am.

5509

09402

1

MJ:

2

proceed?

All right.

Anything else we need to address before we

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: No, ma’am.

5

MJ:

6

witness stand.

All right.

No, ma’am.

Let the record reflect the witness is on the

Captain von Elten, please proceed.

7
8
9
10

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT VON Elten]:
Q.

Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, what spell check equipment or

spell checking capabilities does CORMIS have?

11

A.

To my knowledge it doesn’t have one, sir.

12

Q.

And how often would staff draft documents in programs like

13
14

Microsoft Word to enter them into CORMIS?
A.

No, you just go into CORMIS.

Once you log in, sir, and you

15

click like on the prisoner--detainee that you’re looking for--no, you

16

just type the information in there, sir.

17

Q.

What if you wanted to draft and entry and use spell check?

18

A.

You--I mean you would have to do it in Word and then cut

19
20
21

and paste it into CORMIS because CORMIS itself doesn’t have it.
ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I’m handing the witness Appellate Exhibit
441D [handing the document to the witness].

22

MJ:

441D you said?

23

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Yes, ma’am.

5510

09403

1
2
3
4
5

[Pause]
ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I’m also handing the witness Enclosure 24 to
Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing the document to the witness].
Q.

Would you please turn to Page 25 of Enclosure 24, Chief

Warrant Officer Barnes?

6

A.

[Looking through the document] Turn to Page 25 you said?

7

Q.

Yes.

8

A.

Okay.

9

Q.

Would you review that for a moment?

10

A.

Okay [doing as directed].

11

MJ:

Is it Page 25?

12

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Yes, ma’am.

13

[Pause while the witness reviewed the document as directed.]

14

Q.

[Looking through the document] Okay, sir.

Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, how does Enclosure--or Page

15

25 of Enclosure 24 to Appellate Exhibit 259 compare to Appellate

16

Exhibit 441D?

17

A.

It’s not reading verbatim, sir, it’s not the same thing.

18

Q.

How would you describe them in comparison?

19

A.

[Looking at the documents] Well in CORMIS, sir, they kind

20

of have these columns because you have to pick what it is; either a

21

counselor entry or C&A board results.

22

on Page 25.

23

Q.

The date was put up here first

It wasn’t the case on the--on the Word document.

How would you compare the content of the Word document to

5511

09404

1
2

the content of the CORMIS entry?
A.

It’s very different.

In the CORMIS entry it listed up

3

front, you know, the recommendation. [Reading from the document] And

4

that said named detainee requested to appear before the board and was

5

granted his request.

6

Q.

How would you compare the description of PFC Manning’s

7

statement before the classification and assignment board between the

8

two documents?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] Just give me a quick second, sir.

10

[Pause]

11

A.

12
13
14
15
16

I’m looking here during--on the Word document, sir, it

says---ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: The witness identified Exhibit 441D-Appellate Exhibit.
A.

Yes, sir.

[Looking at the document] One second, sir, let

me just go look through here.

17

[Pause while the witness read through the document.]

18

MJ:

19

Q. Just trying to ask you what is it--what does it say about

Captain von Elten, what are you trying to get at?

20

PFC--what does Enclosure 24 say about what PFC Manning said before

21

the classification and assignment board on 21 January--or 20 January.

22
23

A.

[Looking at the document] It said--it’s a couple of

different things that he said in here, sir.

5512

I mean, they’re--

09405

1

they’re--I mean, he was----

2
3

Q.

What does it say about what he said with regards to his

statement about always acting[sic], never planning[sic]?

4

A.

5

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Your Honor, may I have a moment?

6

MJ:

7

[Pause]

8

A.

9

Oh, I didn’t get down that far, sir.

One second, please?

Yes.

He was asked about the statement he made on his intake form

about, you know, about the suicide piece as far as have you ever

10

considered it?

And he--they asked him--well, you wrote always

11

planning, never acting.

12

that could have been false--or that may have been false.

And they asked him about it.

And he said

13

Q.

What does it say generally in Appellate Exhibit 441D?

14

MJ:

Is your point going to be that those two say the same

15

thing?

16

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Yes, ma’am--or somewhat.

17

MJ:

18
19
20

Can I--do I need to do that through this witness?

read.
ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I--it--it was in context of the previous
question, ma’am.

21

MJ:

22

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I can move on, ma’am.

23

I can

All right.

Go ahead.
I’m retrieving 441D

and Enclosure 24 [retrieving the documents from the witness].

5513

I’m

09406

1

handing the witness Enclosure 32 to Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing

2

the document to the witness].

3
4

Q.

Chief Warrant Officer Barnes, defense counsel reviewed the

entry for--on Page 12.

Could you please turn to it?

5

A.

[Looking through the document] Okay, sir.

6

Q.

What is your assessment about PFC Manning’s state of being

7

at that time?

8

A.

9
10

[Reading from the document] On this one the note I wrote

was concur with the board.

SND seems to be handling his stressors in

a--in a better fashion, sir.

11

Q.

And what is the date?

12

A.

25 February, sir.

13

Q.

And what happened approximately a week later on 2 March

A.

Kind of got a little frustrated down there in special

14
15

2011?

16

quarters.

17

that day he had a couple other things going on as far as receiving

18

new additional charges, and he also received Colonel Choike’s

19

response, which did not grant him relief on his Article 138

20

complaint, sir.

21
22
23

Q.

He was talking to Master Sergeant Papakie.

What changes did your opinion of the custody and status for

PFC Manning have during that time?
A.

But, again, on

I’m sorry, sir, can you say that again?

5514

09407

1
2

Q.

What changes did your determination for the custody and

status for PFC Manning have during that time?

3

A.

On the 25th or are you talking about a week later?

4

Q.

Between the 25th and 2 March?

5

A.

Could you rephrase the question, sir?

6

Q.

How would describe your assessment of PFC Manning on 25

7
8
9

February?
A.

I mean in talking to the board and just, you know, of

course, after I probably had spoken to Doctor Malone or to whoever

10

the psych’ was that day, you know, just--I mean, to me--hadn’t been

11

any like major breakdowns or anything like that.

12

seems as though, you know, he’s handling his stressors in a better

13

fashion.

14

to either wean him or take him off his med’s.

15

exactly, sir.

16

Q.

And a week later would you have said the same thing?

17

A.

I mean, on that particular day probably not because--I

So I just said it

And that could have been around the time when they decided
I don’t recall

18

mean, he--he was not a type of detainee like every day we had a

19

problem with him or had outbursts and stuff like that every day.

20

when I was briefed on the conversation--it was kind of how it went--I

21

said, okay, well, obvious--the--with the things that happened earlier

22

in that day, you know, maybe that--that added to the stress or maybe

23

made him a little bit more frustrated, sir.

5515

So

09408

1
2
3

Q.

So how did your assessment of PFC Manning change from 25

February, when after PFC Manning made the comments on 2 March 2011?
A.

I mean, sir, like I said, the comments caused me concern.

4

It’s not something that I feel comfortable with, of course.

So--and

5

that’s, you know, what let me to decide to take the actions that I

6

did that day.

7

Sergeant Papakie and Gunny Blenis at that time.

8

between the three of us, that’s close to 50 years of military

9

experience.

I mean--like I stated before, I did talk to Master
And in that room,

So, again, not that I need their permission, but out of

10

respect for them as individuals and their rank, it’s like, hey--you

11

know, of course, I asked some questions to them--mostly to Master

12

Sergeant.

13

this--do you think in your opinion is it unreasonable or anything

14

like that?

15

don’t know if--you know, if it was the two things that happened to

16

him--happened earlier that day that he just became a little bit more

17

frustrated--something else, I don’t know.

18
19
20

And then when I made my decision, I asked them--I said, is

So my assessment kind of was like, you know, hey, I

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Retrieving Enclosure 32 [retrieving the
document from the witness].
Q.

What circumstances is it app--in what circumstances is it

21

appropriate to place restraints on a detainee during recreation call-

22

-or Sunshine Call?

23

A.

I mean they’re allowed to do it.

5516

I mean if they make the

09409

1

call to remove restraints, I mean, that’s on them.

But I guess for

2

me--you know, a lot of things is pretty much at the CO’s discretion.

3

Q.

Okay.

And when did you first meet PFC Manning?

4

A.

Well when I came to the facility, sir--obviously I was

5

doing my walk arounds beforehand, but when I officially took over

6

that’s when I talked to each detainee or prisoner, sir.

7

Q.

How many chits did PFC Manning file with you?

8

A.

I didn’t get any chit, sir.

9

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I’m handing the witness 441K [handing the

10

document to the witness].

11

Q.

At the end of the email what do you note that you offered

12

PFC Manning?

13

A.

14

[Pause]

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Let me take a quick look, sir?

I put in the email that [reading from the document] I spoke

16

to Manning today to advise him that I kept him in POI status and that

17

he can submit a DD Form 510 to me if he’s not happy with the custody

18

classification and assignment.

19

me in private about it and he stated, no.

20

stated that he understands.

He was asked if he wanted to talk to
He took the news well and

Thanks, sir.

21

Q.

And what is the date of the email?

22

A.

28 January, sir, 2011.

23

Q.

And when did PFC Manning take the opportunity to talk to

5517

09410

1

you personally and privately?

2

A.

When I approached him--to be honest, sir, on a few

3

occasions.

4

me to talk in private, sir.

5
6

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I’m retrieving 441K [retrieving the document
from the witness.]

7
8

But he’s never asked or put a chit in the CO’s box asking

Q.

How often do you put--when you put a detainee on suicide

risk, how often do you put them on one-to-one watch?

9

A.

Well if all--outside, sir, somebody’s in front of that

11

Q.

Most of the time?

12

A.

No.

10

13

cell.
Some of the time?

If they’re SR, sir, that Marine sits in front of that

cell 24 hours a day, sir.

14

MJ:

15

WIT: Suicide risk, ma’am, SR.

16

Q.

17

This is on suicide risk?

And after you ordered PFC Manning’s underwear removed, how

often was he placed under one-to-one observation?

18

A.

No, it was still the five minute checks for POI, sir.

19

Q.

How was--how were the conditions of PFC Manning’s

20

confinement as a maximum custody detainee different from other

21

maximum detainees?

22
23

A.

It wasn’t different, sir.

always try to stress.

And that’s one of the points I

I mean he was not the only MAX detainee we had

5518

09411

1

at the time.

He was not the only MAX detainee POI or SR that we’ve

2

had at any given time.

3

the handling letters were the same, sir.

4

because, again, realizing how long he was in that custody and status-

5

-when Chief Warrant Officer Averhart gave him a little extra

6

correspondence time, I went along with it.

7

that.

8

the day, I gave him that was well.

9

his compared to the MAX’s.

So his conditions, sir, were the same.

All

His was just different

I had no issues with

And when he asked for letter writing material to have during
So those things were different on

But as a standard rule as far as no

10

calisthenics in the cell, you know, that kind of thing--toilet paper

11

will be given to you on request; all those things were exactly the

12

same, sir.

13

Q.

And how did those conditions compare to conditions

14

implemented at confinement facilities across the Marine Corps for

15

maximum custody detainees?

16

A.

Sir, to be honest, it’s no different.

I mean--again,

17

because there’s no formal corrections school, and the SECNAV, as you

18

see, has a lot of leeway.

19

a little bit, but in my time in corrections the standard for MAXs,

20

POI, SR, as I described, sir, that’s what I’ve seen.

21
22
23

Q.

All right.

To be very honest, some practices may vary

You just mentioned extending his note taking

time, I believe?
A.

Chief Warrant Officer Averhart did that before I got there

5519

09412

1

and I kept it in place.

2
3

Q.

When did you give PFC Manning the ability to have note

taking equipment in his cell?

4

A.

Well, I don’t recall exactly when that was, sir, but he may

5

have said something to Gunny Blenis.

He--Gunny Blenis came and

6

talked to me.

7

didn’t have an issue with that.

8

actually another detainee as well that had asked.

9

both, sir.

I mean he says he thinks he should have it.

And I

So he was--not just him, there was
And we said yes to

10

Q.

And who approved that decision?

11

A.

It was me, sir.

12

Q.

And with whom did you seek approval above you?

13

A.

Nobody, sir.

14

Q.

What confinement decisions did you seek approval from a

15

higher officer on?

16

A.

To be honest with you, sir, there is nothing that I called

17

Colonel Oltman and said, hey, sir, can I have permission to do this,

18

or I want to do this.

19

something.

20

like that, I didn’t feel it was, you know, unreasonable to give it to

21

him.

22

for approval to make a change.

23

I’ll wait for you to come back and say

There wasn’t a situation like that, sir.

Again, things

So--but to be honest, there wasn’t a time where I had to call

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Thank you.

5520

09413

1

MJ:

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

3

MJ:

4
5

All right, I have several questions for you.

Questions by the military judge:
Q.

The--has it been your experience in other facilities where

clothes are taken from people on POI status?

8
9

No, Your Honor.

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL

6
7

Redirect--recross?

A.

To be honest, ma’am, I can’t--I can’t recall.

But I just

know that in general if there is a need for it that it--that by the

10

SECNAV rule I could do that.

11

where that’s the case.

12

I was a dorm supervisor--before--that was very young in my career.

13

And most of my time after that was the administrative chief for the

14

most part.

15

done.

16

But I don’t recall, honestly, ma’am,

‘Cause even though I worked on security where

So to be very honest, ma’am, I wouldn’t say it was not

I--it’s kind of hard for me to say, ma’am.
Q.

As I look at the SECNAV Instruction, the portion that you

17

cite as authority to take away the clothes is the part that deals

18

with--that talks about suicide risk.

19

SECNAV Instruction that talks about removal of clothes to your

20

knowledge?

21

A.

Is there anything else in the

That same wording, ma’am, is in another part of the SECNAV

22

when they talk about disciplinary segregation.

23

about special quarters, ma’am.

But they--I’m sorry,

But to be very honest, it--once I

5521

09414

1

reviewed it, I realized that it did not address POI.

2

I thought that it did.

3

covered in a different section.

4

paragraph where they were talking about suicide, ma’am--suicide risk.

5

Q.

And initially,

So the same content initially, ma’am, is just
But, again, it was under the

And I think I’m a little confused on that.

Is your

6

testimony that in addition to the paragraph on the suicide risk that

7

authorizes taking of clothes there’s another paragraph in the SECNAV

8

Instruction that authorizes it in other circumstances?

9

A.

No, ma’am, not in other circumstances.

That’s why I--not

10

in other circumstances, ma’am.

11

was still along the lines of addressing a suicide, ma’am.

12

Q.

It was mentioned again, however, it

So what is your testimony today regarding your authority--

13

any brig commander’s authority under the SECNAV Instructions for

14

taking a detainee’s clothes when they’re not on suicide risk?

15

A.

To be very honest, ma’am, there’s nothing else that says if

16

they’re in POI status clothing may be removed as deemed necessary.

17

POI, prevention of injury, is not mentioned very much in the SECNAV,

18

ma’am.

19

clothing can be taken deemed necessary--although that day after

20

talking to the staff and getting briefed, I did not--by his comments

21

did not feel though he was suicidal or he made a gesture or threat in

22

suicide by his comment, but just given the history, ma’am, and

23

knowing that at nighttime more of an opportunity will exist, I made

So it is correct that in the SECNAV--although I knew, yes,

5522

09415

1

that decision.

2

says outside of SR that in POI or some other circumstance that you

3

may remove the underwear, ma’am.

4

Q.

But, again, ma’am, there’s nothing in the SECNAV that

In your experience in other correctional facilities is rem-

5

-had--have you seen--have clothes and underwear been removed from a

6

pretrial detainee who’s not in a suicide risk status?

7

A.

I’m not--I can’t recall, ma’am, to be honest with you.

8

Again, when I was on the security section in a dorm such as the

9

special quarters Marines that were in there, that was very young in

10

my career as a PFC and lance corporal.

11

I picked up E4 and E5, I rose up then--admin’ chief, sex offender

12

coordinator, vic coordinator, DNA coordinator, so a lot of my

13

experience, honestly, ma’am, has not been--like for most of my career

14

on security itself where you’re--you know, in the weeds with that

15

kind of thing, ma’am.

16
17
18

Q.

And pretty much from the time

Did you follow--when you first arrived did you follow Chief

Averhart’s brig policy--I think you had one that was fairly thick?
A.

He had one, ma’am, but one of the first things I did was I

19

told the staff at least for the first 30 days until I start getting

20

into the swing of things, I said, yes, that is the Brig SOP.

21

started making changes to that.

22

Advocate, and I was giving him like one--one to two or three chapters

23

at a time, ma’am.

But I

I made liaison with the Staff Judge

5523

09416

1
2

MJ:

Trial counsel, can you pull the enclosure that was the brig

policy and give it to the witness so I can talk to her about it?

3

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]:

4

MJ:

5

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: I’m handing the witness Enclosure 48 to
Appellate Exhibit 259 [handing the document to the witness.]

8
9

Thank you.

[The assistant trial counsel did as directed.]

6
7

Yes, ma’am.

Q.

Is that the policy--the one that Chief Averhart when you

arrived at Quantico?

10

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, ma’am.

11

Q.

Look at Page 18.

12

[The witness did as directed.]

13

Q.

14

training.

15

page.

Under 2007, it talks about exercise, recreation, and
And it has Number 1 and Number 2, which is on the next

16

A.

Yes, ma’am.

17

Q.

I believe you testified about this earlier; what was your

18

understanding of the amount of exercise and regulation--I’m sorry,

19

exercise recreational training that maximum security detainees were

20

allowed?

21

A.

Can I just have a quick second?

22

Q.

Certainly.

23

A.

Thank you, ma’am.

Certainly.

5524

09417

1

[Pause will the witness read through the document.]

2
3

A.

Meaning as far as my understanding, ma’am, they would get

rec call for an hour.

4

Q.

And that would be maximum security detainees as well?

5

A.

Yes, ma’am, I didn’t have any restrictions or anything on

Q.

So did that--that piece remain the same in your policy as

6
7
8
9

that.

well or something similar to it?
A.

It probably did, ma’am.

Again, just going through it--I

10

was just kind of looking out for big things.

11

when we got told about custody being tied to PR, that’s something--

12

definitely something I put in there.

13

pretty much could have just said an hour because even though it’s at

14

our discretion, I prefer an hour.

15

Q.

And as I stated before,

But as far as the exercise, I

That’s what--really the crux of my question; is exercise

16

call--Sunshine Call per the SECNAV, is that completely up to your

17

discretion, or is there certain amounts of minimum that you’re

18

supposed to give?

19

A.

I don’t think it gives times, ma’am.

I think it just kind

20

of says, you know--of course it’s based on behavior because it’s kind

21

of seen as an incentive, you know, to get recreation call; that kind

22

of thing.

23

wise is because the way the SECNAV is written--it’s not really

And one of the reasons why it may not be addressed time

5525

09418

1

written for a PFC like mine ‘cause--a PCF--I’m sorry, ma’am--like

2

mine.

3

And I remember having to conduct exercises first before they got

4

recreation call.

5

set time like you can only give ‘em 20 minutes or whatever.

6

a lot of it--based on behavior, you know, how the prisoner’s doing,

7

ma’am.

8
9

So they’ll talk about an exercise program which was mandatory.

Q.

So, to be honest, ma’am, I don’t recall that it’s a
I think

In the policy there, the other part that I’m a little

confused on is--if you look at Page 101.

10

[The witness did as directed.]

11

A.

Okay, ma’am.

12

Q.

It has the POI on E there; [reading from the document] it

13

says those prisoners who have given an indication that they intend or

14

are contemplating harming themselves or others will be assigned

15

maximum custody.

16

A.

Is that the part that you changed?

That’s--yes, ma’am.

And that--after the guidance came out

17

from Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz we did that.

And traditionally

18

because of all the restrictions that are synonymous between somebody

19

that’s on POI and just on MAX custody inmate, period, who is not POI

20

it, to be honest, has been common practice in facilities to do that.

21

So as I was going through the rewrite--when we had--the change came

22

out that came down from Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz, I made sure

23

that I changed that.

‘Cause even the SJA, Lieutenant Colonel Greer,

5526

09419

1

as we’re--when I submitted those chapters, I would say, hey, sir,

2

these are the chapters I got.

3

said, sir--and I also have the new guidance from Headquarters Marine

4

Corps in there as well.

5

Q.

And I would reiterate the guidance--I

But, yes, that was in my change, ma’am.

So before you made the change was--I mean were there

6

actual--the C&A board and you, did you make two separate

7

determination on POI and MAX custody, or did you just--did you say we

8

decided POI so, therefore, MAX kind of always went along with that?

9

A.

To be honest, ma’am, we--we looked at them separately

10

because with the custody the factor such as the seriousness of the

11

alleged offense, one of which involves--or could have been involved

12

at least in the matter of national security, we looked at the length

13

of potential--length of sentence, that he had few family ties.

14

you know, low toleration of frustration.

15

looked at, ma’am, because the custody thing, again, as they pointed

16

out, depending on the charge, if they come in for one count or UA,

17

Article 86, so because now they’re SR they should not be made MAX,

18

but to be very honest, ma’am, in my mind I didn’t say, hey, let’s

19

just lump everything together.

20

Q.

So

So those are the things we

Did someone--taking the POI issues aside, would someone

21

arriving at Quantico with the identical charges of PFC Manning, would

22

they always be a maximum custody?

23

A.

They would be in maximum custody, ma’am, if the charges

5527

09420

1

were the--were the same.

2

that involved national security of some--of any degree, we try to

3

make sure that we protect that detainee or that prisoner.

4

Q.

Because for one, anything, again, ma’am,

Well is maximum security status--maybe I’m confused here. I

5

thought protective custody was protecting someone.

Is maximum

6

security----

7

A.

Oh, the PO--the----

8

Q.

----designed to protect someone?

9

A

Well to the--remember, ma’am, because they’re not--the MAX

10

custody, ma’am, they’re not allowed to mingle in with the other

11

inmates.

12

protective custody.

13

another status.

14

it’s very violent crimes, Article 118, and things like that, they are

15

separated and put on higher restrictions based on some of those

16

factors that I just listed, ma’am.

17

other detainees in addition to protecting detainees from them, you

18

know, based on the charges, ma’am--on the alleged charges.

19

Q.

I think maybe I confused about bring up the term PC or
And I apologize for that, ma’am.

But that’s

But the MAX custody itself for prisoners, whether

Yes, to protect them also from

And I guess here’s my confusion--and maybe you can help me

20

clear it up a little bit.

21

someone would go into if they needed protection from other detainees.

22

Is that right?

23

A.

Right, ma’am.

Protective custody is a status that

In the case that I cited--for example; if

5528

09421

1

you have prisoners testifying against each other, yes, we would put

2

them in protective custody.

3

said, hey, this person has threatened me or this detainee put this

4

note on my feed tray threatening me or something like that, then,

5

yes, they’ll be in protective custody because, one, they requested--

6

of if we saw a need for it, you know, based on, again, court

7

proceedings where maybe that person is testifying against somebody

8

else.

If a prisoner came to--came to us and

9

Q.

Could a person in protective custody be in MDI status?

10

A.

Yes, ma’am.

11

Q.

So going back then to the hypothetical that I gave you

12

initial, would PFC--someone with PFC Manning’s charges comes to

13

Quantico----

14

A.

Yes, ma’am.

15

Q.

----no other--the family relations are fine, no issues on

16

tolerating frustration, the only one you have on that block, if he

17

comes with those charges, would he be an automatic maximum custody

18

inmate or detainee, excuse me?

19

A.

Pretty much, ma’am, because of the one that deals with the

20

national security issues--and the thing about it is, again, even

21

though we may--you know, you look at the nature--the serious nature

22

of the alleged charges, that’s definitely one of the--the big

23

factors.

And all we have to go on is the confinement order or--you

5529

09422

1

know, if the unit, for example, did maybe the IRO hearing--whatever

2

came out of that.

3

then more than likely, yeah.

4
5

Q.

So with serious alleged charges like that, ma’am,

Understanding the initial custody level would more than

likely be MAX as you’ve testified----

6

A.

Yes, ma’am.

7

Q.

----over time would it automatically--or would it

8

automatically stay maximum for the entire period of the pretrial

9

detention because of the charges themselves with nothing else?

10

A.

No, ma’am.

And the--and the thing is, again--that’s one of

11

the reasons why we stay engaged with the command to tell them, hey,

12

when you guys update things, we need it.

13

something like a new charge sheet.

14

experience I’ve had to get on units because I would hear it through

15

the grapevine somehow and then wouldn’t know--and then I would say,

16

hey, we need that so we can put this person back on the C&A board.

17

So, no, ma’am, I wouldn’t say it’s automatic just because of that one

18

thing.

19

know, that is taxing on the staff, and it’s not something that should

20

be done arbitrarily, ma’am.

21

Q.

22

[Pause]

23

Q.

‘Cause it could be

And I know personally in my

And then we also realize that keeping somebody in MAX, you

Okay.

Before you took over at Quantico, had you had experience

5530

09423

1

with C&A boards in other correctional facilities?

2

A.

Yes, ma’am.

3

Q.

Were there--were there counselors--was the detainee’s

4

counselor ever a voting member of those boards that you’re aware of?

5

A.

No, ma’am.

Most of the time in the facilities that I

6

worked at, they were Level 1; they were a little bit larger.

So most

7

of the time, you know, the counselors would be there to kind of--in a

8

way, I guess, feed the case--hey, this is what I want for my

9

detainee.

So in other brigs that I have worked out, with the

10

staffing issues, usually the counsel--when there weren’t--I’m sorry,

11

the counselors usually would be there for feedback or if they had

12

questions.

13

ma’am.

14

Q.

But--and that’s what I’ve seen in other facilities,

When you arrived at Quantico and you saw the way that the

15

C&A board was structured at Quantico, did that concern you in any

16

way?

17

A.

To be honest, ma’am, no.

I mean we were talking to

18

Headquarters Marine Corps as far as staffing.

And, you know, a lot

19

of times we were told, well, hey, the TO was changed; this is all you

20

guys have.

21

Yes.

22

administrative chief?

23

comprise the board.

So for me when I looked at do we have a programs chief?

Do we have a security chief?
Yes.

Yes.

Do we have an

And those are the basic members that

So me personally, I didn’t see an issue with how

5531

09424

1

the boards were run.

2

last functional adequacy inspection the Headquarters Marine Corps

3

did.

4

fact, programs got a noteworthy.

5

the counselors and the C&A board falls under, ma’am.

6

And, again, when I took over I asked about the

And I reviewed that.

Q.

And there were no issues.

As a matter of

And programs is the section that

Going back to the 2d of March, you testified earlier that

7

PFC Manning received new charges on that day and he also got Colonel

8

Choike’s Article 138 response.

9

A.

Yes, ma’am.

10

Q.

How much notice did you have ahead of that day that that

11
12

was going to be happening?
A.

Lieutenant Colonel Greer emailed me--I think it could have

13

been earlier--that--that morning, I think, about the new charges

14

coming down.

15

time they would be at the brig--the best that I can recall, ma’am.

16

But I’m pretty sure it was either earlier that day, but it wasn’t a

17

lot of notice like, you know, 30 days or a month out.

18

was pretty close, ma’am.

19
20
21

Q.

And he said he did--himself did not know exactly what

I remember it

Were you concerned about having a mental health

professional on hand that day?
A.

That was discussed, ma’am.

Because, again, when Lieutenant

22

Colonel Greer said that--and he said, you know, this is pretty heavy.

23

Then I said, well, we’ll definitely have to monitor him and just to

5532

09425

1

see.

2

found guilty, that’s--to me is a lot to deal with.

3

you know, let’s make sure that we watch him closely.

4

to, you know, stand in front of his cell the whole time, but that we

5

need to OCS know, hey, we need the MO over here--that we’ll be trying

6

to get them over here quickly.

7
8
9

‘Cause anybody in that predicament, even though he’s not been

Q.

So I just said,
I’m not saying

Did you have notice that Colonel Choike’s 138 complaint was

going to come that day, too?
A.

Yes, I believe he had mentioned that.

‘Cause he asked to

10

make sure that he got the sheet that PFC Manning had to sign saying

11

that he got it--that they wanted that back.

12

told me that it was signed by Colonel Choike or ready to go--

13

something like that.

14

Q.

So I’m pretty sure he

Do you remember if the conversation between PFC Manning and

15

Master Sergeant Papakie where the underwear comment was made, do you

16

remember if that occurred before or after he--PFC Manning got his new

17

charges and the Article 138 complaint?

18

A.

I recall, ma’am--to be honest with you, when they came and

19

briefed me it was very close to the end of the day.

20

had gotten that stuff earlier.

21

things, you know, that I was a little concerned with.

22

[Pause]

23

Q.

And I believe he

And that’s kind of like some of the

The suicide blankets; is that unique to Quantico or are

5533

09426

1

they the typical suicide blankets that anyone would get in any Naval

2

Marine Corps correctional facility?

3

A.

It’s typical in other facilities, ma’am.

It’s--there’s

4

just the--the characteristics of it that are usually synonymous.

5

And, of course, it may be a different color or something, but as far

6

as it being very thick and not being able to be ripped and that kind

7

of thing, it’s pretty standard, ma’am.

8

Q.

How about the mattress?

9

A.

I don’t know about the mattress to be honest with you.

10

‘Cause I know they got that one from Rappahannock because PSO did

11

provide any ‘cause the regular mattresses that the other ones have is

12

very soft, very pliable, and could be pulled apart.

13

[Pause]

14

Q.

15

What about the suicide smock; was that something that had--

I believe you said Headquarters Marine Corps bought that?

16

A.

Yes, ma’am.

17

Q.

Did they buy just one or did they buy more than one?

18

A.

I believe--I know it was definitely more than two because

19

we actually had another detainee who wore it--wore the smock.

20

had at least two or three, ma’am.

21

But we definitely had more than two because I remember there was

22

Manning and another detainee at the time wearing it, ma’am.

23

Q.

So we

I can’t remember exactly how many.

Have you seen those smocks before at other facilities?

5534

09427

1

A.

No, ma’am.

Usually they were the same two blankets from

2

what I saw.

3

special quarters and--they would let me know--the way to let me know

4

when the person is up and covered in a blanket, ma’am.

5

that I hadn’t seen smocks in the facilities, ma’am.

6

Q.

‘Cause there were times when I would have to go to

But prior to

Other than PFC Manning, what was the longest time during

7

your tenure that a pretrial detainee stayed at Quantico--

8

approximately?

9

A.

Could you repeat the question, please, ma’am?

10

Q.

Other than PFC Manning----

11

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

12

Q.

----who was there since July of 2010----

13

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

14

Q.

----what was the longest period of time a pretrial detainee

15
16

stayed at Quantico during your tenure?
A.

Ma’am, several months to be honest with you.

Because I

17

remember myself just calling over to legal, hey, you know, what’s the

18

holdup?

19

do remember we had a couple that were there for several months.

20

know, five to seven in that timeframe.

And, you know, as far as getting them to court.

But, yes, I

21

Q.

Five to seven detainees----

22

A.

No, no, I’m sorry----

23

Q.

----or two detainees there for five to seven months?

5535

You

09428

1
2

A.

No, I’m just saying time wise, ma’am.

There were other

detainees that were in the facilities, you know, for several months.

3

Q.

What does several mean to you?

4

A.

I mean I would say, you know, like somewhere between five

5

to seven, ma’am.

6
7

Q.

Did Quantico have some kind of an MOU of what kind of a

facility it was going to be?

8
9

I mean----

A.

Before I took over, ma’am, it was Level 1.

And then

Headquarters Marine Corps decided to downgrade it to pretrial

10

confinement, which just means all detainees or post-trial up to 30

11

days.

12

So that was done and approved before I took over, ma’am.
Q.

Was there any kind of limitation on pretrial for a duration

13

of how long a pretrial person could stay--a pretrial detainee could

14

stay at Quantico?

15

A.

No, ma’am.

And that’s one of the issues, you know, that I

16

had.

And, you know, of course, I would call over to legal to say,

17

hey, what’s the holdup?

18

detainees themselves; hey, look, you’ve been here for a long time.

19

Are you in--I used to ask them, hey, are you talking to your

20

attorney?

21

I don’t control, you know, the courts, but when I see somebody

22

passing 120 days and it’s like, well, okay, what is the problem here?

23

You know, it’s just one of those things, ma’am, where there was

You know, sometimes I would talk to the

What--do you know what the holdup is?

5536

I mean, obviously,

09429

1

nothing that says we can only hold them, if they’re in pretrial

2

status, for let’s say for the 130 days and no more.

3

aware of anything like that, ma’am.

4

honest, from PSL standpoint is getting the ones who came back

5

adjudged, hurrying up to get them transferred to the larger

6

facilities.

7

Q.

I--I wasn’t

Their concern, to be very

I believe you testified earlier that--or we had testimony

8

that it’s not common for detainees to appear before the C&A board.

9

Is that--was that your testimony?

10

A.

Yes, ma’am.

I said I’ve seen where some detainees appear.

11

But to say on a regular basis like every time--‘cause we run the C&A

12

board every day, but to say that----

13

Q.

You run it every day?

14

A.

Yes, ma’am, because there are other things that we consider

15

like changing detainees’ work assignments, for example, things like

16

that.

17

detainee today--they come back adjudged tonight, then when the C&A

18

board meets the next day it’ll be to change them, okay, well, now

19

they’re a prisoner.

20

one that may be different.

21

weekly, ma’am, but we--we just meet every day ‘cause sometimes things

22

come up.

23

So--or if somebody comes back adjudged and they were a

Q.

And we’ll give them a work assignment, you know,
So the C&A board is only required to meet

Is it also uncommon for detainees in maximum custody to

5537

09430

1
2

appear before the C&A board?
A.

Honestly, ma’am, I don’t see them a lot.

Because what

3

happens is when--the counselor--of course they meet with their

4

clients once a week or more as they need it.

5

to ‘em and say, hey, this is what I’m recommending.

6

talk to their inmates ahead of time so--so they would know.

7

times they’ll say--they might ask them--and I know I’ve done it in my

8

time, you know, you can appear or is there anything you want me to

9

say other than what we’ve discussed?

10

And they kind of talk
And they usually
But most

But to be honest with you, it’s

not really common that you see MAXs at the board, ma’am.

11

Q.

How about people on suicide risk?

12

A.

Not really, ma’am.

13

Q.

POI?

14

A.

Not really because a lot of it, to be honest with you,

15

ma’am, again, the counselor talks to them a lot.

16

let them know, hey, look, we’re--we communicate with the medical

17

providers--that kind of thing, so they kind of know it’s a

18

collaborative thing.

19

MAXs or POIs or SRs--you know, like always say, hey, I want to appear

20

in front of the board.

21
22
23

Q.

And then with--we

And--but in my experience I really haven’t seen

On the 18th of January of 2011, were you--are you--you were

asked to review, I think, a transcript of what---A.

Yes, ma’am.

5538

09431

1
2

Q.

----transpired.

Have you ever seen the video that was

taken of that incident?

3

A.

Just a very short clip, ma’am.

And for whatever reason--I

4

don’t know if the CD either didn’t work well or whatever, but I did

5

not see the whole thing or--or, you know, was able to hear the whole

6

thing, ma’am.

7

Q.

8

On the POI checks did I understand your testimony to be

that it was every five minutes?

9

A.

Yes, ma’am.

10

Q.

What did a check--what--what is a check?

11

What does a check

require?

12

A.

Okay, basically, ma’am, the guard will walk past, you know,

13

he’ll take a look every five minutes.

14

stand up or what do you need or are you okay; that kind of thing.

15

‘Cause, of course, with anybody, you know, not just him, that

16

probably would annoy you a little bit.

17

they’ll walk past or take a look or say, hey, you good?

18

they’ll do it on this check.

19

again.

20

them, are you good?

21

it’ll be more times than that.

22

done eating, he’ll say, any problems with the chow or something like

23

that.

It wasn’t, hey, PFC Manning,

So for the most part, ma’am,
Maybe

And then a few other ones they’ll look

If they haven’t asked in the last few checks, they’ll ask
Or--but then, again, sometimes it could be-Like maybe, for example, when he’s

So--but as far as just the five minute checks it’ll--you know,

5539

09432

1

just them looking over, hey, how are you--everything good?

2

annotate on the DD Form 509, ma’am.

3
4

Q.

And just

So do I understand your testimony that every five minute

check doesn’t get an “are you okay”?

5

A.

Right--or forcing him to stand up.

6

Q.

You testified earlier that in the cells you try to create

7

distance.

8

A.

That I try to create distance?

9

Q.

In--in the spacing of cells.

Maybe you said--that’s

10

something I wrote down when you were testifying.

11

it your practice then if you had--if--if the facility wasn’t full,

12

what was your practice in assigning detainees to cells?

13

to put them all together so they could talk to each other?

14

separated farther apart so they had more of privacy?

15

A.

Did you--well was

Did you try
Were they

No, ma’am, because in the cells they can’t see each other;

16

they can just talk.

So I didn’t have like a set policy that says,

17

okay, nobody will be next to a POI, or nobody will be next to an SR.

18

I mean--yeah, I don’t recall saying--as far as creating the space.

19

As far as inmates being allowed to talk to each other; that’s not an

20

issue.

21

consecutive periods like the entire times he was there, but there

22

were times, ma’am, when people were housed next to him.

23

have issues with inmates in cells next to each other.

And people who were housed next to him before--not for long

5540

But I don’t

But we did

09433

1

separate the disciplinary ones, ma’am.

2

different part of special quarters.

3

Q.

We had those--excuse me--in a

In the C&A boards that were documented under your tenure, I

4

noticed on the 4th of March after the boards there was a continuation

5

sheet for each of the boards where there wasn’t before.

6

something that you instituted?

7

A.

No, ma’am.

I didn’t tell them to do that.

Was that

But that was

8

just something--I just remember kind of ask--and they just said, hey,

9

ma’am, some of the notes don’t always fit in the box on the worksheet

10

itself--the C&A worksheet.

11

again, with the C&A boards, they would bring me the worksheet and his

12

book.

13

things.

14

start doing this.

15

itself is kind of small.

16

information in there, ma’am.

17

[Pause]

18

Q.

19

So they’d just put stuff on there.

So I was still able to, you know, to go through and look at
So that wasn’t something that I said, hey, from now on let’s
You know, again, that block on the C&A worksheet
And they just used that just to put extra

So did I understand your testimony correctly; with PFC

Manning, when he changed his visitation----

20

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

21

Q.

----what hap--how did you first hear about that?

22

A.

The mail clerk had said something.

23

But,

And I think--I can’t

remember if Master Sergeant Papakie might have come in and also said

5541

09434

1

something to me.

2

know the people he took off, ma’am.

3

Q.

But Corporal Sanford did send an email letting me

Did PFC Manning have to go on the visitation list and just

4

cross out people’s names or did he have to draft a new visitation

5

order?

6

A.

No, ma’am.

The original ones he had--when I looked at it,

7

he crossed out the name and then initialed.

8

removed them from visitation, but he still elected to have mail

9

because on that sheet it has both.

Because what it was--he

So I remember him--I remember

10

seeing things lined out with his initials on there.

11

510; that’s something separate.

12

mail clerk, hey, I would like to change mail and visitation.

13

the sheet itself, because it’s quite a few sheets, ma’am, from what I

14

had seen he had lined out and initialed.

15

sheet--I don’t know if it was--it just wasn’t legible and they may

16

have asked him, hey, just fill out this one.

17

because it was multiple sheets, I saw things that were crossed out

18

and his initials.

19
20
21

Q.

But the DD Form

He did have to say, you know, to the
But on

Now maybe there was one

But for the most part,

When he filled out the DD 510, did he have to list every

visitor that he was going to remove?
A.

For one, ma’am, I don’t know if he did or not.

I can’t

22

remember the chit.

But something like that, we would want that on

23

there so there’s no mistakes on, you know, any misinterpretation

5542

09435

1

because if something happens down the road--well, I didn’t say to

2

take that off--then we would be able to have the chit.

3

more than likely he may have asked, hey, do you want to remove or

4

add, if that was the case.

5

Q.

So I’m sure

Just to make sure that I’m understanding; after the--the

6

change to the visitation, there’s--there’s a visitation form that

7

existed----

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

----and you said it was several pages?

10

A.

Yes, ma’am.

11

Q.

PFC Manning goes and makes changes.

12
13

Now is there still

only one form, or is there an old form and a new form?
A.

Ma’am, they’ll give him--they’ll show them the original

14

form that was filled out and then they’ll make the changes.

15

that’s why they’ll ask him to initial.

16

have been a form or so where--either from scratching it out or

17

something--it might not have been legible and they may have asked

18

him--but from what I recall, the originals--I saw quite a few pages

19

where he just lined out the item and initialed.

20

he wasn’t given a whole stack of, here--here’s some new mail and

21

visitation forms.

22

[Pause]

23

Q.

And

But, again, I believe it may

So to my knowledge

Fill out each on all over again.

And I just want to make sure I understood your testimony;

5543

09436

1

did you--did the--the 2d of--or the 3d of March----

2

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

3

Q.

----where PFC Manning stood naked in his cell for morning

4

count.

5

incident on any of the----

6

Did you testify--were there any entries anywhere about that

A.

On the back of his hard card, ma’am, there was an entry put

7

on the back of his hard card.

And Master Sergeant Papakie spoke to

8

him about it.

9

Q.

Did he make the entry?

10

A.

More than likely he could have, ma’am.

I mean it’s not

11

uncommon if somebody else outside of the special quarter’s supervisor

12

made a correction that they themselves would ask for the hard card

13

and write the note.

That’s not uncommon.

14

Q.

Do you know when--it was the morning of the 3d of March----

15

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

16

Q.

----that he stood naked.

17

Papakie talked to him about that?

18

next day?

19

A.

Do you know when Master Sergeant
Was it the same day?

Was it the

Was it the day after that?
I think it may have been the next day, ma’am.

I think--I

20

think--I’m not sure if it was that day itself, ma’am.

But I know he

21

did talk to him because he let me know, you know, that he spoke to

22

him about it because, again, initially Staff Sergeant Terry said

23

something.

So Master Sergeant Papakie--I don’t know if it was later

5544

09437

1

that day or the next day, but I know it was fairly soon after that he

2

did say something to him and put a note on his hard card.

3

[Pause]

4

MJ:

5

on that?

All right.

I think that’s all I have.

6

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: No, ma’am.

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

8

minute comfort break?

9

MJ:

Certainly.

I do, ma’am.

Any follow-up based

But could we have a brief 10

I think--if I’m reading that clock there; is it

10

5 minutes after 1400?

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

MJ:

That’s correct, ma’am.

Okay, why don’t we go ahead and recess then until 15

13

minutes after 1400.

14

[The Article 39(a) session recessed at 1406, 10 December 2012.]

15

[The Article 39(a) session was called to order at 1417, 10 December

16

2012.]

17

MJ:

Court is in recess.

This Article 39(a) session is called to order.

Let the

18

record reflect all parties present when the court last recessed are

19

again present in court.

20

Coombs?

21
22
23

The witness is on the witness stand.

Mr.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the civilian defense counsel:
Q.

I wanted to make sure I understood some of your responses

5545

09438

1

to Colonel Lind’s questions.

2

asked if--if a detainee came in with the exact charges of PFC Manning

3

but had good family relationships, didn’t have a low tolerance for

4

stress, you indicated that that person would be in MAX custody based

5

upon the charges?

6

A.

With regards to the charges, you were

Maybe on the initial confinement.

But, again, the C&A

7

board would come in that day after that and review it.

8

there’s nothing else that we see--nothing from let’s say the IRO

9

hearing or something like that, yes, that person would not

And if

10

automatically be kept in the MAX because of the--the one charge.

11

And--but everything else as favorable.

12

Q.

Okay, so--and then that’s where I got confused because I

13

thought what you said was that based upon the national security

14

implications of the charges.

15

Manning has, would that person be in MAX based on the charges alone,

16

or not?

17

A.

So if they had all the charges that PFC

Well, again, sir, we get the confinement order.

That’s

18

what we’re going on.

And when you look at that, again--and it

19

depends on what other things came in.

Sometimes we’ll get things

20

from the IRO hearing, or--it depends.

So, again, I’m just saying

21

maybe initially that person can be in MAX, but there is nothing where

22

that person would automatically be--will stay in MAX.

23

again, as I told you in the case of PFC Manning, that wasn’t the only

5546

Because,

09439

1
2

criteria that was looked at though.
Q.

Sure.

But you said that, you know, sometimes charges are

3

reduced or whatnot, and then that would result in somebody being

4

taken off of MAX because their charges are no longer a serious

5

threat?

6

A.

Yes, they will--that’s correct--will get reviewed.

So,

7

again, if it’s something where they go from a violent 128 or

8

something like that--or attempted murder or something like that--and

9

granted I have not seen anything where it just went from that to

10

like, okay, for one count of 92.

11

if--for example, let’s say a rape charge that was reduced to maybe

12

something like inappropriate touching or something like that--

13

something that went from full blown rape to that, then in a case like

14

that then, yes.

15

understand what I’m saying?

16

reduced and it’s nowhere near as serious, that’s one of the main

17

criteria to look at, yes, to get reduced.

18

Q.

I haven’t seen that.

But, again,

But I’m not talking about a case like this--do you
Again, if the charges are significantly

What about a situation where the charges are not ever

19

reduced?

So the person--the violent--you know, a murderer or the

20

rape were the very, very serious offenses; they stay the same

21

throughout----

22

A.

Not necessarily----

23

Q.

----what about that?

5547

09440

1

A.

----not necessarily, sir.

Again, if there’s nothing else--

2

when you look at those higher classification factors, if the charge

3

is pretty much the only thing and, again--obviously I can’t tell the

4

Commandant what charges to put up there.

5

Q.

Right.

6

A.

But that’s, again, one of the things that’s looked at.

But

7

if the charges never change, but that person has been in confinement,

8

not been an issue, there’re no issues or concerns with other things,

9

then, no, there’s no set law you’re just going to stay in MAX,

10
11

period, because of that.
Q.

And PFC Manning’s condition or situation, he stayed in MAX,

12

was that because of the charges and other factors, or was that

13

because at that point POI meant you were in MAX?

14

A.

Well to be honest, it was, again, the factors and the fact

15

that, okay, we didn’t seen any change let’s say in the bonds with his

16

family, the greater communication that we talked about before, that

17

was--that’s still something else we looked at.

18

realized at the time, you know, those are the pres--it just so

19

happens that with PFC Manning that he also came in with very serious

20

alleged charges.

You know what I mean?

21

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

22

A.

I mean--I see what you’re saying.

23

point.

So even though I

You make a very good

But, again, it just so happens in his case it wasn’t just,

5548

09441

1

okay, he came in with an 86 and for whatever reason, you know, he was

2

put on POI or SR.

3

the seriousness of the alleged charges, the potential length of

4

sentence, all those factors that I discussed before as well as looked

5

at.

6

Q.

So it just so happens that in his case, sir, that

Okay, so--so now I just want to do two hypotheticals and

7

you tell me what the response would be.

8

out kind of that memo saying, hey, look, POI doesn’t automatically

9

mean MAX.

10
11
12
13

You know, it could be MDI.

Prior to CW5 Galaviz putting

If, prior to that memo, if PFC

Manning was on POI did that mean he would be on MAX?
A.

Honestly by practices, more than likely, sir, to be honest

if that was the case.
Q.

Okay.

And in this situation, because PFC Manning was

14

always considered on POI, let’s take away the seriousness of the

15

charges and the other issues you might have considered for MAX----

16

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

17

Q.

----because he was in POI, he would be in MAX by default?

18

A.

Again, sir, I answered that.

I said prior to that memo.

19

‘Cause, again, when you see that as standard practice, until you’re

20

corrected and told this is how you need to do business from here on

21

out, of course I would have been in compliance.

22
23

Q.

Okay.

So now let’s take away the POI aspect.

Let’s say

there was no concern about prevention of injury or anything like

5549

09442

1

that----

2

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

3

Q.

----so that was not a concern for you all and you had his

4

good conduct.

5

C&A boards it was; the seriousness of the offenses, the potential

6

length of sentence, low tolerance for stress----

My understanding for the MAX based upon looking at the

7

A.

Right.

8

Q.

----and the poor family relationships?

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

Was there anything else that you were looking at as far as

11
12
13

the factor just for MAX, if you take away the POI aspect of it?
A.

I mean--well, again, sir, the--the--the behavior we were

seeing that I discussed previously----

14

Q.

Let’s say none of that--

15

A.

----the decreased communication----

16

Q.

----I’m sorry to interrupt you there----

17

A.

Okay.

18

Q.

----let’s say none of that issue of behavior or anything

19

like--you have no concerns about him harming himself--absolutely no

20

issues there.

21

that to the side and say no issues of him harming himself or being,

22

you know, a risk of suicide or self-injury----

23

A.

So if you can for a moment kind of divide that--put

[Responded in the affirmative.]

5550

09443

1

Q.

----so just looking at the MAX now.

2

A.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

3

Q.

So you’ve got the seriousness of the offenses, the poor

4

home relationship, the low tolerance for stress, and the potential

5

length of sentence.

6

A.

Okay.

7

Q.

Was there anything else that you were factoring just for

8

the MAX and not for any sort of prevention of injury?

9

A.

I mean, again, sir, I would--what would weigh heavily on me

10

is, and you covered it, the nature of the alleged charges.

One thing

11

I would consider though is if he’s allowed in general population,

12

what could happen?

13

inmate’s families who were visiting talking about the case.

14

Obviously we can’t tell them, hey, don’t talk about it or we cannot

15

confirm or deny that he’s there.

16

would be something that would very much concern me.

17

what the media says or what other people think, we have a total

18

responsibility of all inmates to safeguard them from harm, hence the

19

reason for the flak jacket and Kevlar.

20

transported in a Kevlar and a flak jacket to be very honest with you.

21

So.

Because--in case you did not know there were

We don’t answer questions, but that

I’ve never seen a MAX

22

Q.

And that would be protective custody?

23

A.

No--

5551

Because unlike

09444

1

Q.

If like you had----

2

A.

----no----

3

Q.

----nothing else though----

4

A.

----no, sir, that’s not----

5

Q.

----wouldn’t you----

6

A.

----protective custody; that’s something different.

What

7

I’m telling you is, aside from those factors that you listed, which--

8

--

9

Q.

Sure.

10

A.

----are in the SECNAV, and it clearly says those factors

11

are not all inclusive----

12

Q.

Right.

13

A.

----my responsibility to keep him safe is important.

And

14

that’s something I would consider.

15

don’t care what the detainee’s in my facility for, I’m going to make

16

sure that they don’t hurt themself or that nobody else hurts them.

17

That--that is a big deal.

18

problem with people reporting--reporting things up the chain or

19

whatever--whether they call it whistleblower or whatever the case it,

20

I don’t have a problem with that.

21

know.

22

things that were going on.

23

are very patriotic.

Because at the end of the day, I

So, again, some people--I don’t have a

Maybe some people do.

I don’t

My job is based on the feedback we were getting and other
My job is to protect him.

Some people

And even though, you know, some people may say,

5552

09445

1

well, why did you have to say something?

They--some people don’t

2

look at things objectively and acknowledge, okay, is reporting a

3

crime the right thing to do regardless?

4

views are different on that.

5

were aware that he was here--I mean the guards overheard them

6

talking.

7

don’t say that or whatever.

I don’t want him to be put at risk; he’s

8

not even found guilty yet.

So that’s one of the things I considered.

9

Would he be safe from the other inmates?

Everybody--some peoples’

So because I knew that other inmates

But, again, they cannot get involved and tell them, hey,

To be very honest with you,

10

if he wasn’t MAX--let’s say he was just out and about in general

11

population, he’ll probably be on a work assignment.

12

things I have to consider.

13

Q.

So these are

Okay, and I think--and correct me if I’m wrong, but if

14

there are no other reasons to keep him in MAX and you had just this

15

concern for his safety, you would put him in protective custody as

16

opposed to MAX wouldn’t you?

17

A.

Well, again, that’s certainly something we could have

18

looked at.

Again, over time--because, again, it is not common to

19

have somebody in pretrial that long.

20

time if--if there was always good communication, he was in good

21

spirits and things like that--would I sit here and say I would never

22

take him off MAX?

23

that I’m responsible for--‘cause, again, even with PC--even if he was

No.

So can I sit here and say over

But, again, sir, when you look at the things

5553

09446

1

not in MAX, he would still not be around other detainees or

2

prisoners.

3

why he’s in the brig or anybody else.

4

keep them safe from harm.

5

flak jacket is a prime example; that’s not standard.

6

other MAXs being transported that way.

7

When I was talking to John Lease about these movements, these

8

upcoming trips and all of that, I’m asking him, hey, look, how are

9

you all holding up out there?

And, again, that is for his safety.

Again, I don’t care

We have a responsibility to

Again, having him wear that Kevlar and
You don’t see

Again, I took the extra step.

Do ya’ll have everything you need?

10

Are ya’ll changing routes, blah, blah, blah.

There was an issue of

11

what they want him to wear outside the facility.

12

things, sir, that I concerned myself with.

13

if something happens to him out there?

14

not transporting him.

15

again, as the--as the brig OIC, I can’t have tunnel vision.

16

like I have prisoners to worry about, staff issues to worry about,

17

battalion functions and command issues to worry about--again, the

18

biggest part of that job as any brig OIC is to safeguard those

19

prisoners, period.

20

Does it take a lot for me to pick up the phone or exchange emails?

21

Hey, what is the deal?

22

a lot.

23

changing the routes that they take even though they’re going to the

These are all

Is it going to fall on me

No it’s not.

I’m not.

I’m not outside the facility with him.

I’m
But,

Just

So, again, going above and--above and beyond?

Let us know about changes.

No it don’t take

But that--that makes me feel a little bit better if they’re

5554

09447

1

SCIF of wherever they’re going, they’re changing routes; that kind of

2

thing.

3

are no personal ill-will or personal feelings for anybody.

4

a murderer on my caseload as a counselor.

5

So for me, you know, you don’t look at this is what they did.

6

at a service member who is in pretrial confinement, who’s not been

7

found guilty yet, that I have to make sure gets to court in one

8

piece.

9

the date of his release and transfer to Leavenworth got leaked--it

Okay, so I take what I do very seriously.

And, again, there
I’ve had

I’ve had child molesters.

That’s--that’s what it comes down to.

I look

As a matter of fact,

10

was all over the place--I was furious.

I sent an email--and I’m sure

11

you have it--to Colonel Oltman saying, hey, look, Mr. Greg Stroebel

12

came, everything went good.

13

got his money, his ID card, nothing to report.

14

for me because I spoke to him in front of Mr. Stroebel.

15

put in that email that I was pissed--excuse me--that the date of his

16

transfer was leaked.

17

at risk, I said, it put my guards at risk.

18

somebody’s calling your job--and I don’t--and I hope this doesn’t

19

ever happen to you--somebody’s calling your job saying and I know

20

where 3247 Elrod Avenue is.

21

We know exactly where you’re at.

22

dark their job--called rovers to walk around, check that perimeter,

23

check that fence line, okay?

On his prerelease he had no issues.

He

He had no concerns
But I also

I said not only posed a problem or put Manning
Because understand when

We know what the tree house look like.
I got guards at nighttime when it’s

That’s one of the reasons why we don’t

5555

09448

1

violate peoples’ rights.

We don’t discuss things.

So I friggin’

2

take it personal when people feel that I have some personal something

3

against Manning or any other detainee.

4

told him, I said, listen, I hope in the future we never have

5

something like this.

6

at risk, I did not like it.

7

going to do when people way above me--however it go leaked, it got

8

leaked.

9

could come in on that train into Q-Town.

So--and in that same email I

To put that detainee at risk, to put the guys
But at the end of the day what am I

You know--and I’m sure you’re familiar with Quantico, you
Guess what?

You’re on that

10

base.

That is--Quantico is a unique base and it’s not 100 percent

11

secure.

12

entitled to do what they want.

13

from that Saturday when you walked up to me in the brig parking lot

14

and introduced yourself, you could--I’m sure you could tell by my

15

demeanor and the things we talked about--I told you then, I don’t

16

have a problem making changes.

17

told you that I ordered a review of everybody.

18

know, that’s good.

19

yeah, that’s--that’s fair.

20

hope that can change.

21

So, for one, for me to be at that facility on a Saturday, what does

22

that tell you? I’m a wife.

23

family extremely serious.

One of the protests I believe happened that way.

People are

So my point to you is, from day one--

I said, I just got here.

I said--I

And you said, you

I think I caught you off-guard.

And you said,

And you expressed to me, hey, over time I

And I said I don’t have a problem with that.

I’m a mother.

I take my religion and my

So when I give up time on the weekends,

5556

09449

1

you know, what that to inspect what you expect.

That’s something the

2

Marine Corps says.

3

kind of see what happens.

4

through Friday, 0730 - 1600, whatever.

5

would come in early to watch chow.

6

different times at night.

7

distrust for the staff, but--again, I feel it’s important for them to

8

see that she’s not really on a regular schedule.

So, you know, they

9

understand I don’t just--in my office and leave.

Okay?

But, again, if I go in on a Saturday, hey, let me
They know my hours obviously are Monday
I changed up my times.

I would stay late.

Come in on the weekends.

I

Come in

Again, it’s not

And I

10

apologize if I’m getting heated.

But, again, at the end of the day,

11

for me I have somebody to answer to.

12

there’s nothing personal against any detainee that I’ve ever held in

13

any facility.

14

Q.

That’s the way I see it.

So

Now--so, Chief, in addition, I guess, to the concern for

15

his safety, were there any other factors for the maximum--so we’ve

16

got the four plus now a concern for his safety?

17
18
19

A.

And--and that was--I mean for the most part that was it,

Q.

Okay.

sir.
Now the--you indicated in your previous experience

20

that you never really had a counselor as a voting member on a C&A

21

board, is that correct?

22
23

A.

Well at the time I did not have it to where the program

chief also happened to be that person’s counselor.

5557

But, again, in

09450

1

that facility it was Level 1, the staffing was totally different, so

2

typically--I was the counselor the first time I was stationed in

3

Okinawa.

4

example, that senior member is out and that--the counselor--the next

5

senior guy happens to be a counselor for somebody and has to stay in

6

their place, then, yes, you would see something like that.

7

again, for the most part, depending on the staff, no, the counselor

8

would not vote.

9

deployed and somebody has to step up, you could see that.

And we--it just didn’t happen.

Now at times if--for

So,

But, again, when people are on leave or TAD or
But it

10

just comes down to the same thing; being objective--hey, this-------

11

I’m putting up this detainee or this prisoner for X, Y and Z, and

12

that’s that.

13

well, hey, I’m the senior member of the board, this is what I say

14

that needs to happen--nothing like that.

15

sheets--it so happens that no on PFC Manning, there were votes were

16

some said yes, some said no.

17

Q.

So you don’t come in with that, you know, preface of,

Because, again, on several

So it could have been the standard practice to say that if

18

you are the counselor you could not be on the board?

19

possible, correct?

20
21
22
23

That was

A.

I wouldn’t say that it was standard practice or they said

Q.

No, no, no, ma’am.

that.
What I’m saying is you could say--if

you wanted to--like your brig SOP----

5558

09451

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

----SOP, you made changes, right?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

If you wanted to you could say within--in the SOP the

5

counselor can--for a detainee cannot be a voting member of the board?

6

That was a possible change you could make?

7

A.

Yes, if I had a concern.

Yes, I could have said that.

8

But, again, from the level--knowing the type of Marines and staff

9

NCOs that I had, knowing that there was not an issue in the past,

10

there wasn’t a need for that.

Again, Chief Warrant Officer Galaviz

11

and his team conducted a functional adequacy inspection in 2010.

12

They said everything was good to go.

13

matter of fact, the program section got a noteworthy on that

14

inspection.

15

Manning’s book and everything else for the 138 with Chief Warrant

16

Officer Averhart, again, nothing was passed after that review to say,

17

well, hey, wait a minute, you all are not doing stuff the right way.
Q.

19

PFC Manning.

20

some sort of check, is the correct?
A.

As a

And then, again, when he came down to review PFC

18

21

No issues or practices.

Okay.

And I want to now ask about the guards checking on

You indicated that every five minutes they’d have to do

Yes, they would go over to his cell, look at him.

22

Sometimes they’ll say, hey, are you okay?

23

that’s it.

5559

You need anything--or--and

09452

1

Q.

And whenever they said are you good, everything okay, or do

2

you need anything, the requirement under the brig rules would be that

3

PFC Manning would respond?

4
5

A.

Well, every detainee or prisoner is required to respond if

a staff member asks them a question.

6

Q.

Right.

7

A.

So I don’t----

8

Q.

----and you indicated that you didn’t think every five

9
10

And----

minutes they asked that question, is that correct?
A.

From my--from my knowledge, no.

And, again, it’s--you

11

know, if they check on him--for example, right now, hey, Manning, are

12

you good?

13

the next five minutes later or when they check on him--they see that

14

he’s doing good or he’s reading, they might just, again, annotate it

15

on the 509.

16

watching them do these checks.

17

down there it just so happens to where--even if they were about to do

18

a check, they call special quarters to attention, I’ll go in there,

19

tell them carry on.

20

myself ‘cause I sign the 509s.

21

from what I was told it’s like--‘cause I know an issue came up with

22

harassment.

23

they talking about?

Do you need anything?

No, I’m good.

And if they go back

So for me--obviously I’m not done there 24 hours a day
I just know the times when I went

I would talk to him.

And I would make a note

But, again, I don’t--from what I’m--

And I said, who’s harassing him?

What is that--what are

And I guess it was construed because he’s--as

5560

09453

1

for the most part they would talk to him.

2

you know, a few times where they take a look at him, he’s reading or

3

writing something, and they probably didn’t say anything.

4

Q.

But I’m sure they were--

And then--I think as you pointed out, you know, at any

5

typical hour you weren’t down there.

6

times--I guess if they were doing it every five minutes then, you

7

know, how--how many times they would actually ask him are you okay in

8

a given hour as opposed to just look at him?

9

A.

So you don’t know how many

Absolutely it’s not--I can’t say for sure.

Like within

10

from 1400 to 1500, you know, the person asked him, you know, 15

11

times.

12

Q.

Right.

13

A.

Or whatever.

14

Q.

Okay.

Now I want to ask you a couple of questions about

15

the visitation list.

16

understand your testimony correctly--that he didn’t have to fill out

17

a new visitors list or he did have to fill out a new visitor’s list?

18

A.

You indicated that--I want to make sure I

What I said was, sir, there was a bunch--several pages,

19

okay.

I recall from what I saw in his book that some of that stuff

20

was lined out--he had his name on it.

21

given a brand new set of, you know--of the sheets--the mail and

22

visitation sheets to fill out all over--all over again from scratch.

23

I mean from what I recall--I do recall flipping through some of that,

5561

I was not aware that he was

09454

1

and I saw where he would line something out and initial it.

2

again, on that, it reflects visitation and mail; so they elect which

3

one that is--it’s for.

4

out the whole thing all over again.

5
6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Q.

Okay, and I’m showing you Appellate Exhibit

This is where you said he did fill out a 510, but was

annoyed he had to update the list----

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

----oh well.

11

So, again, I don’t recall him having to fill

441N [handing the document to the witness].

7
8

Because,

And I was wondering what was PFC Manning--

from your knowledge what was he annoyed that he fill out?

12

A.

To go back and update the list.

Maybe when he submitted

13

the DD Form 510, maybe he just thought, okay, well, Corporal Sanford

14

will make that change.

15

was told he seemed a little bit annoyed.

16

understand that he may have felt, well, okay, I’m filling out a 510,

17

why do I now have to go down for each person?

18

in the line of work we’re in we always try to document things so we

19

can show, you know what, he’s the one who made these changes.

20

there’s ever a question later on it’s not, well, the mail clerk did

21

it.

22

know, who I told him to take off.

23

And that’s not how it works.

That’s not what I told him to do.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

So from what I

And, again, I can kind of

But, again, you know,

So if

Or that’s not--well, you

And I want to show you also from Enclosure

5562

09455

1

22 of Appellate Exhibit 259, this is the weekly reports----

2

WIT: Okay.

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4

----that you did. This is Page 99 [handing

the document to the witness].

5

Q.

If you’ll look up in Gunny Sergeant Blenis’ counselor’s

6

notes, he talks about the reason why PFC Manning removed people from

7

the list.

8

didn’t visit him or people where his relationship deteriorated with

9

them?

Do you see where he says he removed people who either

10

A.

[Looking at the document] One second, please?

11

Q.

Sure.

12

MJ:

It’s enclosure what?

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

Exhibit 259, Page 99.

It’s Enclosure 22, ma’am, of Appellate

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

So you were aware that the reason he was removing these

17

people were they didn’t visit him or in the case of two individuals

18

the relationship with them deteriorated somewhat?

19

A.

Right.

20

Q.

Now on 3 March the incident where PFC Manning is standing

21

naked for the morning formation, you said you believed there was a

22

notation on the hard card for that?

23

A.

I didn’t say that morning.

5563

I said I know Master Sergeant

09456

1

Papakie spoke to him and made a note--I’m pretty sure he made a note

2

on the hard card.

I don’t know--I didn’t say that morning----

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

----‘cause that morning count goes at 05--0510, excuse me,

5

so normally Master Sergeant Papakie didn’t come in that early.

6

that’s not something he would have done that morning.

7

remember it being put on the hard card.

8

that day on the 3d or maybe even the 4th.

9
10

Q.

And do you know why there--there wasn’t an incident report

filled out for that?
A.

I can tell you there wasn’t one.

12

Q.

Do you--I guess--maybe I’ll rephrase it.

14

Again, I

It could have been later

11

13

So

Do you recall an

incident report being filled out for that?
A.

Honestly, sir, I don’t recall.

Most of the other things

15

they did, so it’s likely that one was done.

16

that took place in the cell or other things that he--he did--like for

17

example, when, you know, he was kind of--trying to initiate the

18

movement and just take his hand out for them to put restraints on or

19

move while they’re putting--things like that----

20

Q.

[Responded in the affirmative.]

21

A.

----I know they document.

22

they probably did one.

23

hard card.

I mean, other things

But, again, more than likely

But, again, I know it was annotated on that

To go back and remember if an incident report was done

5564

09457

1
2

for that particular incident, I don’t recall.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Enclosure 22

3

and Appellate Exhibit 441N [retrieving the documents from the

4

witness].

Thank you.

5

WIT: Yes, sir.

6

ATC[CPT VON ELTEN]: Nothing, ma’am.

7

MJ:

8
9
10

Based on defense counsel’s questions, I have one more.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL

Questions by the military judge:
Q.

The 3 March incident where PFC Manning stood naked for

11

morning count, before reading about it in the newspaper, what level

12

of severity of infraction, if you will, was something like that?

13

A.

I mean, to be honest, ma’am, it wasn’t one of those things,

14

hey, write him up on a disciplinary report; not for severe as that.

15

Again, it--it--I know it caught all of us by surprise because inmates

16

are taught, hey, you will keep your shirt on, you know, that kind of

17

thing.

18

around like bare chested or anything like that except, you know,

19

during hygiene call and shower call.

20

infractions to where a disciplinary report would be written for it.

21

But he would at least be counseled on it.

22

yes, it would go, you know, to a disciplinary report after he’d been

23

counseled a few times on it, ma’am.

So they know that you don’t--you’re not allowed to walk

5565

So it wasn’t one of those major

And if it continued then,

But, again, it wasn’t one of

09458

1

those definitely write him up on a DR right now and that kind of

2

thing--not for that even though it was inappropriate.

3

reason he thought to do that, I don’t know, ma’am.

4

just wasn’t something where I felt or anybody else thought like, hey,

5

this is a disciplinary report absolutely.

6

it is inappropriate.

7

you’ve been able to keep your underwear, but just so we’re very

8

clear, you make sure that this doesn’t happen again.

9

extent of the--of where it went, ma’am, as far as severity.

For whatever

But, again, it

It’s one of them things--

This is a new change.

I understand in the past

That’s the
But

10

nothing to where he would get a disciplinary report where after

11

having a discipline--discipline and adjustment board I would be able

12

to take away privileges from him.

13

serious that it rated a disciplinary report.

14

spoken to about it.

15

Q.

But we didn’t think it was that
But he did have to get

I’m not looking so much on the disciplinary side.

I’m

16

looking at the incident report side.

17

normally be--well, I don’t know how normally that situation exists,

18

but would something like that normally trigger an incident report?

19

A.

Would a situation like that

And normally, ma’am, yes, because there’s things that he

20

did before where they did incident reports that were not like that.

21

‘Cause, again, that’s not something that routinely occurs.

22

an incident report should have been written.

23

honestly, ma’am, you know, if I--if--I can’t sit here and say, yeah,

5566

So, yes,

I just don’t recall,

09459

INSTRUCTIONS FOR PREPARING AND ARRANGING RECORD OF TRIAL
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