Title: Volume FOIA 045

Release Date: 2014-03-20

Text: 14108

Volume 45 of 111
SJAR ROT
FOIA Version

VERBAT IM 1

RECORD OF TRIAL2

(and accompanying papers)

of
(Name: Last, First, Middie initiai) (Sociai Security Number) (Rank)
Headquarters and
Headquarters Company,
United States Army Garrison U-S- Army FCDIJC Ml/er: VA 22211
(Unit/Command Name) (Branch of Service) (Station or Snip)
By
GENERAL COURT-MARTIAL
Convened by Commander

(Titie of Con vening Authority)

UNITED STATES ARMY MILITARY DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
(Unit/Command of Con vening Authority)

Tried at

Fort. Meade, MD on see below

(Piace or Piaces of Triai) (Date or Dates of Triai-9

Date or Dates of Trial:

23 February 2012, 15-16 March 2012, 24-26 April 2012, 6-8 June 2012, 25 June 2012,

16-19 July 2012, 28-30 August 2012, 2 October 2012, 12 October 2012, 17-18 October 2012,
7-8 November 2012, 27 November - 2 December 2012, 5-7 December 2012, 10-11 December 2012,
8-9 January 2013, 16 January 2013, 26 February - 1 March 2013, 8 March 2013,

10 April 2013, 7-8 May 2013, 21 May 2013, 3-5 June 2013, 10-12 June 2013, 17-18 June 2013,
25-28 June 2013, 1-2 July 2013, 8-10 July 2013, 15 July 2013, 18-19 July 2013,

25-26 July 2013, 28 July - 2 August 2013, 5-9 August 2013, 12-14 August 2013,

16 August 2013, and 19-21 August 2013.

1 insert ?verbatirri or ?surrimari'zeo? as appropriate. This form be used by the Army and Navy for verbatim records of triai

2 See inside back co ver for instructions as to preparation and arrangement.

DD FORM 490, MAY 2000 PREWOUS OBSOLETE Front Cover

14109

1

MJ:

All of them or just some of them?

2

ATC[CPT MORROW]: With respect to the Farah documents there were

3

remnants of those documents from the unallocated space on the

4

personal computer, remnants of the Department of State cables on the

5

unallocated space on the personal computer, remnants of the GTMO --

6

some of the GTMO documents are in the unallocated space on personal

7

computer.

Yes, there’s evidence of those.

8

MJ:

Are they in the deleted spaces or the unallocated spaces?

9

ATC[CPT MORROW]: Same.

They -- essentially they don’t -- they

10

don’t make their way to the unallocated side unless they’ve been

11

deleted.

12

MJ:

13

ATC[CPT MORROW]: You could refer to Mr. Johnson's testimony or -

Okay.

Just a minute.

And where would I find this?

14

- I haven't reviewed his report in a while, but I believe his report

15

indicates ----

16

MJ:

17

ATC[CPT MORROW]: Yes, that Exhibit Juliet.

18

MJ:

19

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Can I have a moment, Your Honor.

20

MJ:

21

ATC[CPT von ELTEN]:

22
23

Is that Defense Exhibit Juliet?

Okay, thank you.

Captain Tooman?

Yes.
Your Honor, the Walter case cited by the

government in its brief also talks about database valuation.
MJ:

Is that in the first brief or the second brief?

10540

14110

1
2

ATC[CPT von ELTEN]: I believe that’s in the first brief, ma’am.
It’s part of a string cite, I believe.

3

MJ:

4

ATC[CPT von ELTEN]: Yes, ma'am.

5

[Pause]

6

MJ:

7

[Pause]

8

MJ:

9

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Nothing to add, Your Honor.

10
11

MJ:

Okay.

Can you get me the case?

All right.

Just a minute.

Captain Tooman?

All right.

Is there anything else we need to address at

this point?

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

No, Your Honor.

13

ATC[CPT MORROW]: No, Your Honor.

14

MJ:

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

16

ATC[CPT von ELTEN]: Ma’am, the United States requests a two hour

This look like a good time for lunch break?
Yes, ma’am.

17

lunch break in order to mark the documents for the next round of

18

witnesses.

19

witnesses.

20

MJ:

And then hopefully can get stated and finish with the

All right.

Do we -- let’s see 12:20, 1:20, 2:20.

If we

21

start at 2:00, we would -- government have enough time to do what

22

they need to do --

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma’am.

10541

14111

1

MJ:

At 1400?

Why don’t we do that then?

Court is in recess

2

until 1400.

3

[The court-martial recessed at 1220, 18 July 2013.]

4

[The court-martial was called to order at 1424, 18 July 2013.]

5

MJ:

The Court is called to order.

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Major Fein?

Your Honor, all parties when the Court last

7

recess are again present with the following exception; Captain Morrow

8

is absent, Captain Whyte is present.

9

Elten is absent, Captain Overgaard is present.

10

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

argument.

12

CIDNE-I and ----

Also, Your Honor, Captain von

Your Honor, just one quick alibi on the 641

I just wanted to point out on the databases, both the

13

MJ:

Just a moment.

14

[Pause]

15

MJ:

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay.
On the CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A database, you

17

have testimony from witnesses that the database was made up of

18

multiple tables.

19

counter IED.

20

were other tables under the CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A database.

21

wasn’t made -- the database itself was not made exclusively of

22

SIGACTS.

23

MJ:

SIGACTS were one of those tables.

You had PSYOPS.

You also had

You had HUMINT reports.

Who was that witness?

Do you remember?

10542

But these
So it

14112

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

The -- all of the unit witnesses that

2

testified for the government, so all the unit witnesses talked about

3

the other things on the CIDNE-I or CIDNE-A database.

4

MJ:

All right.

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Government, do you contest that?
Your Honor, the United States doesn't necessarily

6

contest that the CIDNE system had other types of information in it,

7

which --the United States even elicited that testimony, but was

8

charged, of course, under the CIDNE database -- what’s on the Charge

9

Sheet is the CIDNE database containing a certain number of SIGACTS.

10

The focus, of course, is the SIGACTS side of the database.

11

[Pause]

12

MJ:

All right.

Before we proceed, I was advised over the lunch

13

recess that at an earlier proceeding today there was a cell phone or

14

other digital device in the courtroom.

15

again the rules of Court are that you cannot have cell phones or

16

digital devices in the courtroom.

17

kind since really the trial began, and I just bring it to your

18

attention.

Please, if you have those, keep them outside of the

19

courtroom.

If I find that there's continued violations of rules of

20

Court, I may have to increase the procedures for searches and all of

21

that before you come in here, and I really don't want to do that.

22

I just bring that to your attention.

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

10543

I remind the public once

We have not had an issue of any

Are we ready to proceed?

So

14113

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

2

MJ:

3

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Ma'am, Chief Ehresman, defense witness is

4

Yes, Your Honor.

Major Fein?

being recalled to continue his cross-examination.

5

MJ:

So you're reopening your case; is that right?

6

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Well, it's the defense case technically.

7

MJ:

Okay.

Go ahead.

8

CHIEF WARRANT TWO JOSHUA EHRESMAN, U.S. Army, was recalled as a

9

witness for the defense, reminded of his previously sworn and

10

testified as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATON

11
12
13

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

Now, you last testified on 8 July 2010.

And at that time

14

you testified that you arrived in Iraq in November of 2009, is that

15

correct?

16

A.

Yes, ma'am.

17

Q.

And then that was later than the rest of 2-10 because of --

18

because you had surgery?

19

A.

Yes, ma'am.

20

Q.

So you didn't have the opportunity to do -- to do the right

21

seat/left seat?

22

A.

Yes, ma'am.

23

Q.

And you got the lay of the land when you got in theater by

10544

14114

1

basically talking to other Soldiers that worked around you?

2

A.

Yes, ma'am.

3

Q.

And when you got in theater you discovered that there was a

4

program that you needed to run on your computer to do your job, is

5

that correct?

6

A.

Yes, ma'am.

7

Q.

And you didn't have that program on your computer?

8

A.

That's correct.

9

Q.

And -- was that a media player?

10

A.

Yes, ma’am.

11

Q.

And everyone else in the S-2 shop already had that media

12

player installed on their machines?

13

A.

Yes, ma’am.

14

Q.

So someone in the S-2 shop give you that media player on a

16

A.

Yes, ma'am.

17

Q.

And you tried to install the media player, but you weren't

15

18

disk?

allowed to do so?

19

A.

Yes, ma'am.

20

Q.

And you explained that administrator privileges came up

21

when you tried to do that?

22

A.

Yes, ma'am.

23

Q.

And then someone in the S-2 shop told you that you could

10545

14115

1

run the program from a disk?

2

A.

Yes, ma'am.

3

Q.

And you just -- you couldn't install anything?

4

A.

Correct, ma'am.

5

Q.

So -- and -- did this person then show you how you can run

6

this program from a disk?

7

A.

Yes, ma'am.

8

Q.

And then after that, did you go to Mr. Milliman and ask him

9

to install that program on your computer?

10

A.

Yes, ma'am.

11

Q.

And you had to -- and the he had to go and check and make

12

sure that he could actually installment the program on your computer?

13

A.

That’s correct.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

Yes, ma'am.

16

Q.

So in the meantime you that -- that media program from the

18

A.

Yes, ma'am.

19

Q.

And you had a shortcut to your CD player?

20

A.

Yes, ma'am.

21

Q.

Because it was faster than clicking through everything on

22

your desktop?

23

A.

17

And he said he would get back to you?

disk?

Yes, ma'am.

10546

14116

1

Q.

Okay.

So then a few days later Mr. Milliman came back to

2

you and installed the media player on your program or DCGS-A

3

computer?

4

A.

Yes, ma'am.

5

Q.

And after that you did not have to access any programs from

6

disks?

7

A.

That's correct, ma'am.

8

Q.

Because everything you needed was already on your computer?

9

A.

Yes, ma’am.

10

Q.

And you testified even mIRC Chat was on your computer when

11

you got there?

12

A.

Yes, ma'am.

13

Q.

And you don't remember anyone else running programs from

14

disks?

15

A.

No, ma'am.

16

Q.

And did this all happen soon after you arrived at FOB

17

Hammer?

18

A.

Yes, ma'am.

19

Q.

And that was November 2009 time period?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

Now when you spoke to Mr. Milliman about the media player,

22

he told you that you were weren't allowed to add programs to DCGS-A

23

machines because they didn't belong to 2-10, is that correct?

10547

14117

1

A.

Yes, ma'am.

2

Q.

And he told you that only he could authorize anything on to

3

the DCGS-A machines?

4

A.

That's correct.

5

Q.

So, in fact, he -- he actually told you he didn't even want

6

you saving files on your desktop?

7

A.

Yes, ma'am.

8

Q.

So when you testified before on 8 July, you said that Mr.

9
10

Milliman told you you could run executables on a CD.

Do you actually

remember Mr. Milliman telling you that?

11

A.

No, ma'am.

12

Q.

In fact, you -- no one ever said anything about executable

13

because until in Mr. Coombs explained to you what an executable was a

14

couple of months ago you didn't -- you didn’t even know what that

15

term meant, is that correct?

16

A.

That’s correct.

17

Q.

But you remember hearing that you were able to run anything

18

Yes, ma'am.

from a disk from someone in the S-2 shop?

19

A.

Yes, ma'am.

20

Q.

And you assumed, when you last testified, it was Mr.

21

Milliman because you went to Mr. Milliman with all of your DCGS-A

22

questions and issues?

23

A.

Yes, ma'am.

10548

14118

Q.

1
2

But you don't remember who actually told you, if anyone,

that you could actually run programs from that CD?

3

A.

That’s correct, ma’am.

4

Q.

And it was actually somebody in your unit that set that up

5

for you on your computer?

6

A.

Yes, ma'am.

7

Q.

And just to clear up any confusion from your testimony

8

before as well, you last testified -- you said that it was VLC on the

9

CD?

10

A.

Yes, ma'am.

11

Q.

But you're not actually sure that was VLC, right?

12

MJ:

What is VLC?

13

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: It’s ----

14

WIT: It’s a type of media player, ma'am.

15

Q.

And you’re not -- but you're not actually sure that it was

17

A.

Not one hundred percent, no, ma’am.

18

Q.

You just -- you know it was a media player of some sort?

19

A.

Yes, ma'am.

20

Q.

So to summarize, you're sure that you could not put

16

21

VLC?

anything on your DCGS-A computer without going through Mr. Milliman?

22

A.

Yes, ma'am.

23

Q.

And you remember someone in the S-2 shop telling you that

10549

14119

1

you could run -- that you could physically run anything off a disk --

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

-- you just don't remember who that was?

4

A.

Yes, ma'am.

5

Q.

And was there ever a time after you arrived that Mr.

6

Milliman pulled everyone in the shop aside just to ensure that they

7

understood that no one was allowed to add anything to their DCGS-A

8

machines?

9

A.

Yes, he did do that.

10

Q.

And do you remember when that was?

11

A.

January/February timeframe, ma’am.

12

Q.

When was this?

13

A.

Yes, ma'am.

14

Q.

So was everyone in the unit present at that time?

15

A.

Everybody in the shop that was in country was at that shift

16

change.

17

Q.

Did that include PFC Manning?

18

A.

Yes, ma'am.

19

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Thank you.

20

WIT: Yes, ma’am.

21

Was this at a shift change?

[END OF PAGE]

22

10550

14120

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

1
2
3
4

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

Chief Ehresman, let's talk what about you know.

Do you

know if anyone had mIRC chat as an executable file on their desktop?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And do you know if anyone had PFC Manning add mIRC chat to

7

their computer?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

So, I guess that would be an example of somebody other than

10

Milliman adding something to a DCGS-A computer?

11

A.

Yes, sir.

12

Q.

And when you were, I guess, falling in on the brigade a

13

month later -- the brigade a month later, you indicated that your

14

understanding was that you could add -- you could run executable

15

files from a CD, is that correct?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And so, let's go ahead and go through what -- what you know

18

from the S-2 side of the house.

Did anyone in the S-2 section say

19

that you could not run an executable file from a CD?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

Did anyone in the S-2 section say that you could not put a

22
23

shortcut on your desktop to run a -- an executable file from a CD?
A.

No, sir.

10551

14121

1
2

Q.

Did anyone in the S-2 section say that you could not put an

executable file on the desktop and run it?

3

A.

No, sir.

4

Q.

With regards to Mr. Milliman, when he pulled everyone in

5

this group, did, he at that point, say you can't put games and music

6

and executable files on your desktop?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

And -- so he specifically said he thought you could not do

9

that -- you shouldn't be able to do that?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And do you know if others Soldier had music and games on

12

their DCGS-A machines?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

So I guess Milliman said it, and Soldiers didn't follow

15

what Milliman said?

16

A.

Or it was already on there.

17

Q.

All right.

18

Fair enough.

And if -- with regards to

Milliman, he wasn't in the military, correct?

19

A.

No, sir.

20

Q.

He was the civilian person contracted to work on the DCGS-A

21
22

machines?
A.

He was one -- one of them, yes, sir.

23

10552

14122

1

Q.

And with regards to the military chain of what you could

2

and could not do on DCGS-A computer, it was the S-2 and above that

3

kind of controlled what you do?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And did the S-2 ever put out -- and I know Mr. Milliman had

6

his little group together, but did the S-2, Captain Lim or his

7

predecessor, Major Clausen, ever get everyone together and say, hey,

8

no more games, music, movies executable files on you DCGS-A machines?

9

A.

Not until after Private Manning got in trouble.

10

Q.

Okay, so after Manning got in trouble that's when the S-2

11

actually put that out?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And prior to that?

14

A.

No, sir.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

15
16
17
18

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

Did you ever see anyone put the music and games on the --

in the DCGS machines?

19

A.

No, ma'am.

20

Q.

You just assumed it was on the T-drive already?

21

A.

Yes, ma'am.

22

Q.

And, again, Mr. Milliman told you that only he could

23

authorize adding things to the DCGS-A machines, correct?

10553

14123

1

A.

Yes, ma'am.

2

Q.

He didn't necessarily say I must do it?

3

A.

Right.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

That's correct.
And, again, defense asked you again about

executables, but you -- you didn't know what they were, did you?

6

A.

Not at that time.

7

Q.

Or self-executables?

8

A.

Yes, ma'am.

9

Q.

Thank you.

10

MJ:

Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

11
12

No, ma’am.

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:

13

Q.

The term executable, is that what you didn’t understand?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

You understood that certain things could be double clicked

16

and run from a CD or from a desktop, right?

17

A.

Yes, sir.

18

Q.

So that was knowledge you had, you just didn't know about

19

being called an executable?

20

A.

That's correct.

21

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Thank you.

22
23

10554

14124

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL

1
2

Questions by the Military Judge:
Q.

3

Talk to me about the video player.

Once again, what

4

happened when you first got into the country -- the media player,

5

excuse me?
A. Yes, ma’am.

6

The media player I was using -- ‘cause there’s -

7

- there’s various amounts of my media players.

And some will play on

8

some and some wouldn't play on the others when you’re trying to look

9

at a file or a movie.

Sometimes you need a specific video player to

10

watch that specific video.

11

it was given to me.

12

put it on there.

So I didn't have it on my computer.

So

So I used it until I got to Mr. Milliman, and he

Q.

When you said it was given to you.

15

A.

On a CD, ma'am.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

And then after I -- I had problems with it and I was tired

13
14

How was it given to

you?

18

of pulling it out and putting in another one, pulling it out, you

19

know, back and forth transitioning, I went to Mr. Milliman and he

20

corrected it for me.

21

Q.

So at the time you were using the media player -- when you

22

-- well, when you subsequently found out from Mr. Milliman that you

23

weren't supposed to use files or software from a CD, did you know

10555

14125

1

that when you were using ----

2

A.

No, ma’am.

3

Q.

---- the media player?

4

A.

No, ma'am.

5

Q.

Were other Soldiers in the SCIF also using things from CDs

6

like the media player?

7

A.

I don't know, ma’am.

8

MJ:

Any follow-up based on that?

9

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma'am.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

10
11
12
13

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

You don't remember anybody else running programs from

disks, do you?

14

A.

No, ma'am.

15

Q.

And the -- everyone else in the shop besides you had the

16

program that you were running from the disk already on their

17

computers, correct?

18

A.

19

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Thank you.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

MJ:

22
23

Yes, ma'am.

Nothing, Your Honor.

I have one other one.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL

Questions by the Military Judge:

10556

14126

1
2

Q.

Could you take something from a NIPR computer on a CD and

put in it a SIPR computer or a DCGS-A.

3

A.

Yes, ma'am.

4

MJ:

Okay.

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

6

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No, ma'am.

7

MJ:

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9
10
11

Thank you.

Any follow-up based on that?

No, Your Honor.

Temporarily or permanently excusable.
Temporary, Your Honor.

[The witness was temporarily excused, reminded of the previous
warning, and withdrew from the courtroom.]
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

We would ask that Chief Ehresman stay for

12

the day.

The only reason is depending upon what the government

13

elicits in its rebuttal case, he may have information in surrebuttal.

14

MJ:

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

16

MJ: Okay.

17

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Ma’am, the United States recalls Mr. Jason

18

All right.

Any objection?
To stay, no, Your Honor.

So.

Milliman.

19

10557

14127

1

JASON MILLIMAN, civilian, was recalled as a witness for the

2

prosecution, was reminded of his previous oath, and testified as

3

follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

4
5
6

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT WHYTE]:
Q.

Let's talk a little bit about the use of CDs on the DCGS
What, if any, physical restrictions were in place that

7

machines.

8

prevented a Soldier from putting a file on a CD, putting the CD into

9

the DCGS machine, and then running the file -- running the -- running

10

the file from the CD?

11

A.

No visible restrictions.

12

Q.

Were Soldiers authorized to put an unauthorized executable

13

file on a CD, put that CD in the DCGS machine, and run the

14

unauthorized executable file?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

Why not?

17

A.

Because it was unauthorized.

18

Q.

And how did Soldiers know what was and was not authorized?

19

A.

They would come to me first.

If I didn't know the answer,

20

I would he seek guidance from Camp Slayer whether it was authorized

21

or not.

22

Q.

23

And, again, what, if any, physical restrictions were in

place to prevent a Soldier from putting a file on a CD, putting a CD

10558

14128

1

into the computer, creating a shortcut on the desktop, and then

2

running the file from that shortcut?

3

A.

Still no physical limitations.

4

Q.

Were Soldiers authorized?

5

MJ:

I'm sorry?

6

WIT: Still no physical limitations.

7

Q.

Were Soldiers authorized to put an unauthorized executable

8

file on a CD, put the CD in the DCGS machine, create the shortcut,

9

and run the un -- and run the unauthorized executable file from the

10

shortcut?

11

A.

No, they were not authorized to do that.

12

Q.

Would you have authorized a Soldier to introduce anything

13

from a CD onto the DCGS machine that was unauthorized?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

What about using a CD for an -- author -- for an authorized

16

executable file, was that something -- like mIRC Chat, for instance,

17

would that have been prohibited?

18

A.

I don't know that it would be prohibited, but it would have

19

been unnecessary cause if it were authorized and it were needed, I

20

would have loaded it.

21
22
23

Q.

So it wasn't common for Soldiers to use a CD to load an

executable file?
A.

Correct.

10559

14129

1

Q.

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Leading.

3

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: No more questions.

4

MJ:

5

Because that would already have been on the computer?

I think he just paraphrased what the witness said.

overruled.

6

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: No more questions.

7

MJ:

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Yes, Your Honor.

Cross?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

9
10
11
12

So,

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

Mr. Milliman, did you know whether or not Wget was part of

the baseline package for DCGS-A computers?

13

A.

I don't know.

14

Q.

And at the time of the deployment you didn’t know whether

15
16
17
18
19
20
21

Wget was part of the baseline package?
A.

If it were a part of baseline package then four years ago I

probably would have known, but I don't recall that.
Q.

Do you recall testifying at the Article 32 that you didn't

know whether or not it was part of the baseline package?
A.

Correct.

I don’t remember -- I don’t recall if it was part

of the baseline package or not.

22
23

10560

14130

1

Q.

And, in fact, at Article 32, you testified that you tried

2

to determine whether Wget was part of the baseline package by calling

3

the company that you worked for?

4

A.

Correct.

5

MJ:

Hold on.

6

Yes [speaking to the Assistant Trial Counsel[CPT

WHYTE]?

7

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Ma’am, it’s just beyond the scope of the direct.

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: They called him, ma’am, to testify about

9

executable file.

Wget’s an executable.

10

MJ:

I’ll allow it.

Go ahead.

11

Q.

So do you recall at the 32 testifying that you called the

12

company to try to determine whether or not Wget was part of the

13

baseline package?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And they told you basically they wouldn't give you that

16

information?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

Now, with regards to installing software; if you wanted to

19

install a program on the W -- excuse me, on the DCGS-A machine, you

20

had to have admin’ privileges, correct?

21

A.

For programs like mIRC chat, no.

For programs like ArcGIS

22

and things that made changes to system files -- operating system

23

files, then you would need administrator privileges.

10561

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1
2
3

Q.

So your testimony is that you could add mIRC chat as a

program to the entire computer without admin’ privileges?
A.

Well, as I think we've already established mIRC chat was a

4

-- one of those type of executable files that you could run by

5

itself.

6

Q.

All right.

So -- yeah, but my question is; if you wanted

7

to add a program to the entire computer you needed to have admin

8

privileges, correct?

9

A.

I guess the problem I have with that question is you say,

10

to the entire computer.

11

isn’t.

12

Q.

It either is able to run on a computer or it

It’s not like there’s sections of a computer.
How would I break it down?

But ----

Like you had a -- a program and

13

wanted every user to log on to that computer to have use of it, you

14

had to have admin’ privileges to put it on the computer in that

15

manner?

16

A.

I believe so, yes.

17

Q.

And that would be you, correct -- that you would be the one

18

that has admin’ privileges?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

And you talk about mIRC chat -- you said mIRC chat -- if --

21

you wouldn’t need to use an executable file because you were going to

22

add it to the computer, right?

23

10562

14132

1

A.

It wouldn't be necessarily on a regular basis because if it

2

was something that the unit needed to use a regular basis it would

3

have been identified, and I would have installed it.

4

exception to that policy is if -- ‘cause I had several camps to take

5

care of -- between Zafar, Herat, Carver, Slayer, you name it.

6

I was on the other side of the country and someone -- for some reason

7

mIRC chat died and needed to be reinstalled, I would probably

8

authorized them to go ahead and install from it their shared drive

9

without me being there.

10

Q.

The only

So if

Okay, but when you install stuff, you install it to the

11

programs to where then any user who logged onto that computer, it was

12

one of the programs that they could use?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

You didn't install stuff as executable files on the

15

computer, right?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

And, when you installed mIRC chat, you installed a version

18

of mIRC chat that was approved?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

Because not every version was approved?

21

A.

I don't know that.

22

prior testimony, too.

23

authorized.

And I think we talked about that in

I don’t know what version was or was not

10563

14133

1

Q.

But do you know that software that is approved is approved

2

for a particular version because we want to make sure it plays nice

3

with everything else on the DCGS-A?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

So if mIRC chat had Version 11, that that was approved, and

6

two months later Version 12 comes out, Version 12’s not authorized on

7

the DCGS-A computer, right?

8
9
10
11

A.

In theory it would not have been unless it had already been

vetted by the folks at Slayer and giving a verbal okay.
Q.

So absent that, the answer would be, no, it would not be

permitted?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And so when you’re -- we’re talking about somebody adding

14

mIRC chat as a desktop executable, when the computer already has it,

15

what does that tell you?

16

A.

I'm not sure I follow.

17

Q.

Well, does it tell you they're probably adding a newer

18
19
20
21

version of mIRC chat?
A.

I don't think they would have added another version of mIRC

chat if they already had a version on there to use.
Q.

And that's why I asked the question; if they already had a

22

mIRC chat on there to use and now they're adding something as an

23

executable file as mIRC chat, would that tell you that their -- they

10564

14134

1
2
3

might be adding a newer version of it?
A.

I suppose it’s not outside the realm of possibly, but it

seems like this is a leading what if kind of thing.

And I don’t ----

4

Q.

That's exactly what it is?

5

A.

Yeah, ‘cause I don't know that it ever happened, so I can't

6
7

really testify to that.
Q.

I know.

But I’m -- what I'm asking you as your expertise

8

in computers, if somebody has a particular version of a program on

9

their computer, and then they add another version as a desktop

10

executable.

11

version?

12

A.

That would be an instance where it might be a newer

Or it could have been an older version.

In some cases some

13

of the anti-virus software didn't work nice with newer versions

14

versus older versions.

15

We don’t necessarily know.

16

Q.

All right.

So it could have just been an older version.

We’ll let's -- let’s deal with your experience.

17

You said in your experience you were aware of certain officers who

18

always want to have the latest of a different program -- the latest

19

version?

20
21
22
23

A.

Not always, no.

There was a few in the beginning, but it

wasn't a frequent occurrence, no.
Q.

Okay, well, then the few in the beginning -- there are

instances where somebody wanted a newer version of a program, right?

10565

14135

1
2
3
4

A.

I don't know it was a newer version of a program, but it

was a program that was not already on the baseline from DCGS-A.
Q.

Okay, and they wanted to add certain things, and then

that's when you would say, no, you can't do that?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

And one of those, I believe, involved a Soldier that --

7

well, actually before I get there, with regards to executable files

8

on the desktop, the government talked to another witness about a

9

meeting that you had where you called everyone in and you told them

10

what they could and could not do in January/February timeframe.

11

you recall that?

12

A.

Do

I don't recall a specific meeting in the January/February -

13

- any specific timeframe, but I know during the RIP/TOA, the

14

changeover from one to the other, when the new unit came in, I made

15

myself available to both shifts when they had shift change.

16

was the prior unit, the incoming unit; both day and night shift, so

17

there were literally 75 to 100 people in the room probably where we

18

went over this is the DCGS-A system, this is your DCGS-A support guy

19

-- they pointed to me, any questions you have you go to him.

20

and can't do this, so and so forth.

21
22

Q.

Okay.

So it

You can

When -- and you said RIP/TOA; is that when you

recall doing this?

23

10566

14136

1

A.

I also -- I was going to say, I also did it when I -- when

2

the new unit comes in the brand new DCGS-M then goes on the machine.

3

So when I put the M’s on the machines at the user’s station, I talked

4

with the users at that station and let them know the same thing.

5

Q.

Yeah, but I'm just talking about a meeting where you would

6

have had both the day and night shift, you know, the 75 or so people

7

you just testified about, one area you say you’re -- what you can and

8

can't do?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

When do you recall doing that?

11

A.

It was shortly after the unit got there.

12

Q.

And when was that?

13

A.

I think it was like October/November timeframe.

14
15
16
17
18
19

I don't

remember when they actually got there.
Q.

All right.

And so when you recall doing that, what

precipitated you to do that?
A.

Commonsense.

I mean, they needed to know what was there

and what needed to be -- what they were authorized to and not to do.
Q.

Now, with regards to seeing -- you said -- you testified

20

earlier that you saw games and music and stuff on the DCGS-A

21

computer, right?

22
23

A.

I saw music.

I didn’t see any games on the DCGS-A laptops.

I know there were games on share drives at places, but I never saw

10567

14137

1

games on the DCGS-A laptop.

2

Q.

All right, so we'll stick with what you recall; music ----

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

---- you said music?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And my understanding is music then -- in this big meeting

7

you wouldn't allow music on the DCGS-A machine, right?

8

A.

I didn't like it, but I had no authority to tell them to

9

take it off.

I mean, the computers belong to the units specifically

10

as far as ownership.

11

outside of my authority.

12

what the project authorized and didn't authorize.

13

violated those terms then in theory it would violate their warranty

14

and support for that project.

15

Q.

What they wanted to use the computer for of was
I worked for the unit.

I could tell them
And if they

Okay, so if I’m understanding you correctly, then if you

16

saw music you could say, you know, I don't know like that, but I

17

can't force you to take it off?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

If you saw executable files that were not part of the

20

baseline package, was that true for that as well where you could say

21

I don't like it, but I can't make take it off?

22
23

A.

The -- the determining factor according to Camp Slayer was

that if the programs loaded onto a laptop that were not part of the

10568

14138

1

DCGS-A baseline, if they were unknown to work or not, we could try it

2

out.

3

ARC-GIS or analyst notebook and these other programs, if it damaged

4

those programs’ ability to operate, then they had to come out.

5

if it didn't, we would allow it.

But it was very, very rare that

6

anything like that ever came up.

So the end result was; if they had

7

something that wasn’t a part of the baseline, but it was allowed --

8

authorized, then it was okay.

If it interfered with the system software say -- for instance,

Q.

9

But

I mean, whether I liked it or not.

Okay, so I just want to make sure I understand it then.

If

10

I'm an intel analyst and I'm working in the shop and you come up to

11

me and I say, you know what, I've got this executable file that --

12

that I like, it's not part of the baseline package, I like it -- it

13

helps me do my job or, you know, I think it’s -- it's a good baseline

14

-- it’s a good executable and I put it on my desktop.

15

that.

16

of the other programs, can you make me take it off?
A.

17

You see me do

You're not happy with that, but I say it plays nice with all

Yes.

In that case, yes, because there was no prior

18

coordination with Camp Slayer to see if it would be allowed to be put

19

on.

20

to immediately reimage the machine.

So if it -- if that happened, my direction from Camp Slayer was

21

Q.

All right, so ----

22

A.

If I were to -- if I were to notice anything like that

23

happening, my initial action is to reimage the machine immediately.

10569

14139

1

Q.

Now music; why was it the same reaction?

2

A.

Because that's not a program that makes changes to system

3

files and so on.

4

Q.

5

about games?

6

A.

7

10

How

Games would -- I -- games would have been treated the same

way, I believe, as far as reimaging the machine.
Q.

8
9

So in your mind there was a difference between music.

So if you saw games on a -- on a DCGS-A machine, and you

tell them to take it off and if they didn't, you would try -- you
would say I want the machine then?

I’m going to reimage it.

11

A.

I would -- I would -- I would notify the NCO in charge of

12

that person.

13

and contact slayer, let them know what happened, and it would be

14

reimaged almost immediately.

If it wasn't an NCO, then whoever the supervisor was --

15

Q.

And did you ever do that?

16

A.

I do not recall any instance of that that needed to be

Q.

So you don't recall any instances where you saw somebody

17
18
19

done.

with games on their DCGS-A machine?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

Were you looking for that?

22

A.

I wasn't going to each person every day to see if they had

23

games on their machine.

But when I went to their machines to do

10570

14140

1

updates, if they had problems I would see what that had on the

2

machine because I would need to check out their profile.

3

-- for instance, if their machine had crashed -- if they required a

4

reimage, I would look in their profile and see what data they and ask

5

them what they wanted me to save.

6

if they had something like games I would have seen it.

And if they

I would pull their data off.

7

Q.

And you don't recall ever seeing that?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

Would it surprise you that games were on analysts’

10

So

computers?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

And, yet, you -- it wouldn't surprise you, but you didn't

13

Knowing human nature it wouldn't surprise me at all.

see it at all during the time you were there?

14

A.

I didn't see it, no.

15

Q.

Now, you did report an incident that involved XP Lite,

16

correct?

Another executable ----

17

MJ:

18

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

19

MJ:

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

A.

XP?
XP Lite.

Lie or Lite?
Lite.

L-I-T-E, ma’am.

That name sounds familiar.

I'm not sure -- I mentioned a

22

program to prosecuting attorneys that -- I didn’t remember what the

23

name was, but there was some program they liked that would condense

10571

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1

PowerPoint programs.

2

But I don't remember a name specifically.
Q.

3

All right.

If that’s that program, then I remember it.

And do you remember ever going essentially to

4

the S-6 because they added that program to the DCGS-A machine over

5

your authorization?
A.

6

There was a program -- I think I mentioned this earlier -That may have

7

that they had cracked my password in order to install.

8

been that software, but I don't recall what the name of the software

9

was.

10

Q.

And when you took that to the S-6, what happened after you

11

said, hey, you cracked my password, you added this program, what

12

happened after that?

13

A.

I had to reimage the machine because one of things -- one

14

of the steps they took was to delete the administrator account from

15

the machine, which is a required account for me to do my job, so I

16

had to reimagine the machine, which reinstalled the administrator

17

account, and put those back the way they were before S-6 got a hold

18

of it.

19
20

Q.

Okay.

Now with regards to executable programs; they can be

from a CD, is that right?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And they can be run if you take the contents of a CD and

23

you put on the desktop, then you can run an executable from the

10572

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1

desktop, is that correct?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

And if you want to keep it on the CD and you want to create

4

a shortcut, you can create a shortcut on your desktop to run it from

5

the CD?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Those are the three ways that essentially an executable --

8

an executable program can be run?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

With regards to executables, when you had that meeting of,

11

you know, what you could and could not do, do you recall referencing

12

executable files?

13

A.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

MJ:

16

No, I don't.
Thank you.

Does that mean you don't recall or you didn't reference

them?

17

WIT: I don't -- I don’t recall referencing.

18

MJ:

19

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: One second, please, Your Honor.

20

MJ:

21

[Pause]

22

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Nothing further, ma'am.

Anything further from the government.

Yeah.

23

10573

14143

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT-MARTIAL

1
2

Questions by the Military Judge:

3

Q.

Could games be run from CDs?

4

A.

I suppose they could, ma'am.

5

Q.

If they were, would you see them when you looked at the

6
7

machine?
A.

No.

If -- if it was contained on a CD, like if you’d put

8

a, you know, a music CD in your machine and then took it out later if

9

I came to your machine, I couldn't tell you’d played it.

10

Q.

If there were shortcuts for CD programs or games, for

11

example, on a machine, when you were looking at the machine to fix

12

problems would you see the shortcut?

13

A.

I would see a shortcut.

But if -- for instance, if they

14

named it “Work”, but it was their games and they knew it was games,

15

all I would see is a shortcut that said “Work”.

16

Q.

Are music CDs executable files?

17

A.

I don't really know the answer to that, ma'am.

18

a general sense I would say not really, no.

19

Q.

How about movies?

20

A.

I would say, yeah, probably.

21

MJ:

Any follow-up based on that?

22

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Just have one second.

23

[Pause]

10574

In a -- in

14144

1

MJ:

While the government is conversing, I have one final

2

question.

3

Questions continued by the military judge:

4
5
6
7
8
9
10

Q.

If movies are executable files -- or music are executable

file, do they require a media player to play them?
A.

Movies definitely would, I guess, depending on the music --

yeah, I think they would both require a media player.
Q.

Was -- were media players authorized for the DCGS-A

computers?
A.

I know I used -- there was a version of the media player

11

while I was at Camp Slayer -- not on the DCGS-A laptops.

12

I think it was VLC.

13

Windows Media Player, or VLC, or both, or neither.

14

-- but I’m -- I'm 99 percent sure there was a media player because I

15

know that the analysts had to have the ability to analyze and review

16

videos and audio clips.

17

they, but I know they had something.

18

Q.

We used --

I don't remember if the DCGS-A baseline had
I don’t remember

So I -- I don't remember which media player

So if -- this is -- if the DCGS-A computer had a media

19

player that could play music and movies, why would they prohibit it

20

on the DCGS-A computer?

21

A.

I'm not sure I follow you.

22

Q.

Maybe I misunderstood your testimony.

23

I thought your

testimony earlier was that you couldn't have music or games -- well,

10575

14145

1
2

I guess games -- games don’t require a media player, do they?
A.

No, I don't think so.

I guess -- see it's kind of a gray

3

area, at least to me.

I mean, I guess I'm not as in tune as some of

4

the other co-called experts, but for music and movies, I guess, they

5

are -- in a means, you have executable for them to run, but I think

6

when we refer to executable here, we're talking about a self-

7

contained program that performs some sort of either data manipulation

8

or editing of files.

9

manipulation or edit a file and either does a movie, I don't think

So since a music file doesn't perform data

10

those are classified as the same like, for instance, a mIRC chat --

11

mIRC chat will store and save chat history between, say, Camp Slayer

12

and Camp Balad, for instance, it’ll save a chat history so you can go

13

back and look at stuff.

14

chat an executable, but I wouldn't really classify music or movies as

15

that type of executable, if that makes sense.
Okay.

And so -- in that instance I would call mIRC

16

MJ:

Any follow-up based on that?

17

[Pause]

18

MJ:

Okay, while they’re talking I’ll ask you one more.

19

Q.

What was the purpose of not allowing music and movies?

20

A.

Once again, the music and movies stuff, we couldn't

21

disallow. That wouldn’t void the service contract, because once again

22

it doesn't create any data manipulation or editing of files, so it

23

wouldn't interfere with DCGS-A -- other programs like ArcGIS or so

10576

14146

1

forth.

But other programs that were on so-called executable that

2

would make file changes -- some system file changes, those type of

3

executables had to be vetted through Camp Slayer for authorization to

4

put on the machine.

5

essential programs they couldn't be allowed on the machine.

Because if they interfered with those mission

6

Q.

Could games interfere with those programs?

7

A.

I think games would.

8

Because games, again, store file

information and use system files.
Q.

9

Well, my understanding of your testimony to be that music

10

and movies were not in violation of DCGS-A computer rules but games

11

were?

12

A.

I believe that to be correct.

Again, it's not -- it wasn't

13

liked, it wasn't preferred, it wasn't condoned, but when it got right

14

to the brass tacks -- the company I work for -- we worked for the

15

military -- it was up to the command to decide what they would or

16

would not allow on a machine as long as it didn't interfere with the

17

mission.

18

movies or music, we couldn't prohibit them from playing movies or

19

music.

So while we may not have liked whether if they played

20

MJ:

Any follow-up based on that.

21

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Just a few, ma'am.

22

MJ:

Go ahead.

23

10577

14147

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

1
2

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT WHYTE]:

3

Q.

Mr. Milliman, was the T-drive unique to the DCGS machines?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Okay, so people that were not on DCGS-A machine could put

6

The T-drive was the unit's shared drive.

information on the T-drive?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

Did a Soldier ever ask you to put on Wget on their

9

computers?

10

A.

I don't recall any Soldier ever asking me for Wget.

11

Q.

Have you heard of Wget before this court-martial?

12

A.

I don't recall ever hearing that until this came about.

13

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Nothing further, Your Honor.

14

MJ:

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Nothing, ma'am.

16

MJ: Temporary or permanent.

17

ATC[CPT WHYTE]: Temporary.

Defense?

18

[The witness was temporarily excused, duly warned, and withdrew from

19

the courtroom.]

20
21
22
23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma’am, the United States calls Special Agent

David Shaver -- recalls.
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, before the witness comes out, the
defense would like to address an issue with the Court.

10578

14148

1

MJ:

All right.

Go ahead.

2

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, one of the rationales provided by

3

the government -- I'll just read it verbatim so I don't misrepresent

4

anything here.

5

recall Special Agent Shaver to discuss how Wget was run from the

6

accused’s profile on his SIPRNET computer to counteract the testimony

7

of CW2 Ehresman that executable files can be run off of a disk.

8

the defense’s position that Chief Ehresman never testified about Wget

9

or how it was run by the accused.

[Reading from a document] the United States will

It's

We believe the testimony was --

10

Chief Ehresman was questioned by Major Fein; do you know what Wget

11

is?

12

if he, assuming my client here, was good or bad at using Wget?

13

sir.

14

that the Army provided for you to do intel?

15

it is, sir.

16

testified about Wget.

17

executable files and how they're run, he's been consistent on that.

18

He said there were a couple of ways you could to do it.

19

run it off the disk.

20

a disk and put on it onto your profile.

21

that Special Agent Shaver will say the exact same thing just as Mr.

22

Milliman said the same thing; when you have a executable file, you

23

can run it from the CD, you can take it off of a CD and put it, you

No.

You don't know what Wget is?

I don't.

So you don't know
No,

Was Wget, to the best of your memory, one of those DCGS tools
I don't know what Wget

It's defense's position that Chief Ehresman never
To the extent that Chief Ehresman talked about

You could

You can could put it -- you could take it from

10579

It’s the defense's position

14149

1

know, onto your desktop or your user profile, and those are the only

2

ways you can run it.

3

shortcut, and that’s essentially still running it off the CD.

4

what Special Agent Shaver will say as well.

5

government wanting to talk about Wget, we don't feel it's proper

6

rebuttal.

7

know what it is.

8

Chief Ehresman said with respect to how executable files are run

9

because he'll say they were -- will echo what Chief Ehresman said and

10

A third was referenced where you create a
That's

So as far as the

Chief Ehresman clearly didn't talk about it; said I don't
Special Agent Shaver isn't going to rebut anything

what Mr. Milliman said here today.

11

MJ:

Government?

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

[Pause]

14

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Ma'am, in the government's filing and as was

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

15

litigated yesterday, the United States is recalling Special Agent

16

Shaver to show how Wget was run from the accused profile on a SIPRNET

17

computer to counteract the testimony of Chief Ehresman about the --

18

about executable files in general that could be run off the disk.

19

There has -- there’s been some confusion about how ----

20

MJ:

Now, did -- well you're recalling Special -- Special Agent

21

Shaver to talk about where Wget was forensically on PFC Manning's

22

computer, is that correct?

23

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma’am; how it was run forensically on

10580

14150

1
2
3
4

PFC Manning’s computer.
MJ:

Chief Ehresman testified about where Wget was on PFC

Manning’s computer?
ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No, ma’am.

He testified about how -- how

5

executable files could be run off of a disk.

6

believes that -- on the DCGS-A computer.

7

Ehresman and Mr. Milliman are not computer experts; they haven't been

8

called by -- as computer experts.

9

someone is necessary to come in to actually explain the confusion and

So the government

And a Ehresman -- Chief

So the government believes that --

10

-- and explain to the Court how this program was run, and how it was

11

run in this case, and how executables files are run because Chief

12

Ehresman even said he wasn't sure it was executable.

13

said, I think it is, but he wasn't sure either, and he's not a

14

computer expert either, ma’am.

15

MJ:

All, Captain Tooman, I understand.

Mr. Milliman

I'm going to allow it

16

because I'm a little bit confused now as the fact-finder.

17

also ask for witness here under R.C.M. 913(c)(f).

18

allow Special Agent Shaver to testify.

19

And I can

So I'm going to

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, we would -- I guess we would just

20

say that certainly Agent Shaver could rebut the testimony of Chief

21

Ehresman about how executable files are run, but there's no --

22

there’s nothing to rebut with respect to how Wget was run by PFC

23

Manning since the defense has put on no evidence about Wget.

10581

14151

1

MJ:

Well, like I said, I'm going to allow it anyway because I'm

2

going -- I’m confused on that issue.

3

provide some clarity.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

And I think this witness can

Go ahead.

Ma’am, the United States recalls special Agent

5

David Shaver.

6

SPECIAL AGENT DAVID SHAVER, U.S. ARMY, was recalled as a witness for

7

the prosecution, was reminded of his previous oath, and testified as

8

follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

9
10
11
12

Questions by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Before we proceed I'm going to grab some exhibits

before the [retrieving exhibits from the court reporter].

13

MJ:

They've all been marked, right?

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

15

MJ:

16

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Ma’am, we’ll object to -- we believe that the

They have, Your Honor.

Yes [speaking to the defense]?

17

government’s going use some sort of PowerPoint presentation.

18

not been provided with that in advance of Special Agent Shaver’s

19

testimony.

20

MJ:

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

We’ve

Has the defense seen the PowerPoint?
No, ma'am, it’s a demonstrative exhibit that

22

we're going to lay a foundation for just like the defense did with

23

Mr. Hall -- that he created himself and that he's going to go through

10582

14152

1

it.

And then -- we can provide them a copy right now and take a

2

recess if they’d like.

3

MJ:

4

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: If I could just take a quick look at it.

5

Do you want to do that?

Ma'am, if we can take a recess and make a copy of this?

6

MJ:

7

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: 15 minutes, Your Honor.

8

MJ:

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

10

MJ:

How much time would you like?

All right.

Any objection?
No, ma'am.

All right.

Once again, Special Agent Shaver, same rules

11

apply.

The court’s in recess for 15 minutes.

12

[The court-martial recessed at 1511, 18 July 2013.]

13

[The court-martial was called to order at 1537, 18 July 2013.]

14

[The witness was on the witness stand.]

15

MJ:

Court is called to order.

Let the record reflect all

16

parties present when the court last recessed are again present in

17

court.
I just held a R.C.M. 802 session with counsel prior to

18
19

coming in.

And Captain Tooman advised me that the defense had

20

several objections to the upcoming testimony.

21

the witness while we present them for the record?

Do we need to excuse

22

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I don't think so, Your Honor.

23

MJ:

All right.

Please do that.

10583

14153

1

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, the defense objects to eliciting

2

any testimony from Agent Shaver about how Wget specifically is run.

3

We understand the Court seeks clarification as to how Wget actually

4

got on PFC Manning's computer, but we don't believe that would be

5

proper to get into how Wget actually runs once it's on PFC Manning

6

computer with Agent Shaver because we didn't elicit any testimony to

7

that during our case in chief.
We would also object to the forth slide, which is a command

8
9

prompt, which includes PFC Manning’s name.

Our objection there would

10

be this isn't a command prompt that was found forensically, so it

11

would be confusing as to whether or not this is actual evidence of

12

what PFC Manning did -- and it's not evidence to what PFC Manning may

13

have done.

14

this demonstrative evidence.

So we would just ask that his not be used with respect to

15

MJ:

All right.

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Government?
Ma'am, for the first point, the United States

17

originally, based on Chief Ehresman, believes that there’s an

18

inference that the program Wget or another executable was --

19

specifically Wget could be run from a CD.

20

whether that is what happened in this case under these circumstances

21

of where the program was run, it's best for the Court, the trier-of-

22

fact, to understand how Wget works -- for Special Agent Shaver’s

23

ultimate, I guess, opinion really on -- on whether that is what

10584

And to truly understand

14154

1

occurred or not.
To the second point, Your Honor, the fourth slide, the

2
3

United States does not intend to use -- well, this whole slide show’s

4

demonstrative overall, especially Agent Shaver created every piece of

5

this slide show including that command prompt, and in the actual

6

direct, the United States intends to elicit that from Special Agent

7

Shaver where he is not saying this is actually what PFC Manning had

8

on his computer, but he replicated it in order to aid him in his

9

testimony.

10

MJ:

All right.

Yes [speaking to the defense]?

11

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, if I may -- just -- just to

12

clarify, Chief Ehresman testified -- he did testify that an

13

executable could be run from a CD, but he also testified that an

14

executable can be run by taking that file off file and placing it off

15

-- placing it on the user profile and running from it there.

16

don't believe we’ve put forward any evidence that PFC Manning did it

17

one way or the other.

18

believe that Agent Shaver would echo as the ways that it could

19

happen.

20

MJ:

So we

These are the ways it could happen, and we

So just don’t feel there’s anything to rebut.
All right.

Well, I've already ruled on this earlier and

21

I'm going to rule on -- I’m going to adhere to my original ruling.

22

am going to allow this in.

23

demonstrative exhibit, and I certainty won't use for it anything

And I certainly understand this is a

10585

I

14155

1
2
3

else.

Go ahead.
TC[MAJ FEIN]: Yes, ma'am.

Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:

4

[The witness was reminded of his previous oath.]

5

Q.

In preparation for your testimony about Wget and how it

6

works and where it was found on PFC Manning's computer, did you

7

prepare a demonstrative exhibit to aid you in your testimony?

8

A.

I did.

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, I'm handing Special Agent Shaver

10

Prosecution Exhibit 187 for identification [handing the document to

11

the witness].

12

Q.

Could you look at this, and look up when you’re finished?

13

A.

[Reviewing the document as directed.]

14

Q.

Do you recognize Prosecution 18 -- Exhibit 187 for

15

identification?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

How do you recognize it?

18

A.

This is a -- a PowerPoint presentation I created.

19

Q.

And when did you create this?

20

A.

I completed it this morning.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

presentation?

23

A.

And did you create every aspect of the PowerPoint

I did.

10586

14156

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I'm retrieving Prosecution 18 -- Exhibit --

2

excuse me, Prosecution Exhibit 187 for identification [retrieving the

3

document from the witness].

4
5

Q.

How many slides was this -- does this exhibit contain,

Special Agent Shaver?

6

A.

Four.

7

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, what is Wget?

8

A.

That is a command line tool to download files from a web

9

server.

10

Q.

And what is a web server?

11

A.

It is a computer which is running special software which

12

allows it to host web pages.

13

Q.

And what is a web page?

14

A.

That is a graphical interface to present information to a

15
16
17

user about the content of a website.
MJ:

Okay, I’m going to ask you to ask all three of those

questions again.

This is so fast ----

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma’am.

19

MJ:

20

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

21

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, what was Wget?

22

A.

That is a command line tool ----

23

MJ:

Okay.

---- I can't even understand it.

So go ahead.

Yes, ma'am.

10587

14157

1

A.

---- to download files from a web server.

2

MJ:

Go ahead.

3

Q.

And what is -- I’ll ask you in a moment about command line

4
5
6

tool, but what is a web server?
A.

That is just a computer with a piece of software on it that

allows it to host web pages.

7

Q.

And what is a web page?

8

A.

That is just a -- it’s a file, but it presents information

9
10
11

to a user to be viewed over the internet.
Q.

What is the term “file type”?

What does that describe in -

- in -- on a computer?

12

A.

Just what kind of file it is.

13

Q.

And what is the common file type for a web page?

14

A.

An HTML.

15

Q.

And what is HTML?

16

A.

Hypertext markup language.

17

Q.

Now you've explained what a web server, web pages, what is

18

a website?

19

A.

A website is hosted on a web server and it is a collection

20

of web pages.

21

Q.

22

server?

23

A.

And how does a website with web pages relate to a web

A web server hosts them and they are contained within.

10588

14158

1

Q.

And what do you mean by “host?”

2

A.

It presents it to the -- to users on the Internet.

3

Q.

How does a file type relate -- now, go to basically

4
5

installed programs.
A.

What is an installed program?

It is a program which has been used as an installer.

It's

6

a program that places the file into the program files folder.

7

also generally puts an uninstaller -- so in case you need to remove

8

the software.

9

Q.

10

is a program?

11

A.

12
13
14
15

It

And I guess I should have started with before that -- what

That is a -- it’s a file that interfaces with the operating

system to do a task.
Q.

And how do file types relate to installed programs on a

computer?
A.

The file types are associated with installed programs.

For

16

example, a document at .doc or DOC is associated with the Microsoft

17

product Office or Word.

18

Q.

And what type of file can be linked to do a web page?

19

A.

Any type of file.

20

Q.

And what does it mean to be linked to a web page?

21

A.

Within the web page you can -- it's a redirect to a file

22

somewhere else, whether it's locally on that -- the same web server

23

or some other part of the internet.

10589

14159

1

Q.

And what do you mean by redirect?

2

A.

It is a URL location.

3

And you would click on it and you

would then be brought to the next location.

4

Q.

And you mentioned URL.

5

A.

Uniform Resource Locator.

6

Q.

And what does that provide a user or a web browser?

7

A.

It's an address -- a location on the internet.

8

Q.

On the .22 and .40 DCGS-A SIPRNET computers, what programs

9

What is a URL?

were installed to allow all users to view the contents of a web page?

10

A.

Internet explorer.

11

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Objection, Your Honor.

12

MJ:

13

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: We think this is outside the scope of rebuttal.

Yes.

14

If we want to talk about Wget, that's one thing, but I think this is

15

outside of what the Court has said is appropriate.

16

MJ:

Well, the full automation program and how programs get in -

17

- on computers and things like that has been raised in this trial.

18

So I'm going to allow it.

19

Q.

Go ahead.

Special Agent Shaver, on the .22 and .40 DCGS-A SIPRNET

20

computers, what programs were installed to allow a user to view the

21

contents of a web page?

22

A.

Explorer and Firefox.

23

Q.

And what type of programs are those?

10590

14160

1

A.

Those are web browsers.

2

Q.

And what is the purpose of a web browser?

3

A.

It is allowed to -- user to view web pages.

4

Q.

Now, you testified a moment ago about linked files on a web

5
6

page.

How would a user view a linked file on a web page?
A.

They would first open an internet browser, navigate to the

7

web page, identify the link they would like to go to, move the mouse,

8

and click on the link.

9

Q.

And then what would happen once you click on that link?

10

A.

It would -- the link would open -- the link would open a

11
12
13

new website or it would download a file.
Q.

And when you said download a website, can the link be

another web page?

14

A.

It can.

15

Q.

And when you click the link that's another web page, what

16

happens to that web page you're linked to?

17

A.

You now go that web page.

18

Q.

And what does that mean?

19

A.

That web page is now presented to you within the web

20
21
22
23

browser.
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, does one of the slides you created

help demonstrate what you just testified about?
A.

Yes.

10591

14161

1

Q.

Which slide?

2

A.

Slide Number One.

3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

4
5
6
7
8

Your Honor, permission to publish Slide Number

One?
MJ:

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel placed the slide on the projection screen in full
view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Now, Special Agent Shaver, using this slide, Slide Number

9

One, could you please explain to the Court exactly how a user would

10

access a file name -- file name “One.pdf” on a web server through a

11

web page?

12

A.

If you direct your attention to the lower left, that would
They would open a web browser.

They would

13

be the user's computer.

14

navigate to the web page at the address there is -- the example I

15

have given is www.website.sgov.gov.

16

to the user.

17

One.pdf.

18

command to the web server to present that to the user.

19

server would pull it from it various locations, whether it's locally

20

or somewhere else on the internet.

21

user in the web page.

22
23

Q.

The web page would be presented

They would identify the link to file name -- file name

The user would click on it because it would then pass that
The web

It would then be presented to the

Now, Special Agent Shaver, what is that dotted blue line

with file name One.pdf on your -- on this demonstrative exhibit?

10592

14162

1

A.

It depends.

That is for -- if you click on a file and your

2

website does not allow you to view web -- PDF files or it allows you

3

to save that locally.

4

Q.

And what do you mean by save it locally?

5

A.

When you click on the link --if you’re -- if the web page

6

you're viewing does not allow you to view PDF’s, it will say “would

7

you like to save this file to your machine”.

8
9

Q.

And what do you have to do when you're presented with that

question?

10

A.

You can either say yes or no.

11

Q.

And with that example the PDF, is that true for all other

12

file types?

13

A.

It could be, yes.

14

Q.

What about web pages?

15

A.

Web pages are displayed within a web browser.

16
17

An

executable would be saved.
Q.

Okay, so we'll get to execute in a moment, but for a web

18

page, if a user was to navigate, in your example, to

19

website.sgov.gov, to that web page -- actually I think you have on

20

webpageindex.html, and they were to navigate there and click on

21

another web page, what is the route that the web page takes to get to

22

the user's computer?

23

A.

Through the web browser.

10593

14163

1
2

Q.

Is that the same web browser that you initially were

navigating on?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And do you normally get a prompt that says “do you want to

5

the save or not”?

6

A.

Not for an HTML.

7

Q.

An HTML is a web page?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, earlier you testified that Wget was a

10

program that allows you to copy files for a web server -- I think you

11

said through a command line -- now I'd like to ask you some specific

12

question about Wget.

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, I'm pulling off Slide One of

14

Prosecution Exhibit 187.

15

server?

16

A.

To download files.

17

Q.

And where -- to where -- where does it download to?

18

A.

To the local machine.

19

Q.

What do you mean by “local machine”?

20

A.

The user -- the person using Wget would generally save it

21
22
23

What does Wget allow a user to do on a web

to their local machine.
Q.

And when using Wget, is the user required to navigate

through the original web page that they would otherwise have to use

10594

14164

1

when they open up Internet Explorer or a web browser?
A.

2

It depends on how you would like -- what files you want to

3

copy.

4

page, identify all of the links, and copy all of that down.

5

you were just look -- if you would just like to download one file, it

6

would not go through that.
Q.

7
8

Or if

And -- and if you wanted to download a single file why

would it not go through the original web page?
A.

9
10

If you want to you, you can tell it to precursory go to a web

It doesn't need to.

You would provide a direct path -- the

direct URL to the file in question.

11

Q.

And if the user runs Wget to obtain a file on a web server

12

what happens?

13

A.

The file would be downloaded to your local machine.

14

Q.

From where?

15

A.

From the web server.

16

Q.

And does that target file then -- when it's downloading

17

again pass through that original web page containing the link to the

18

file?

19

A.

No, sir.

20

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, do -- do one of the slides that you

21

created help demonstrate what you just testified about?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

Q.

Which slide that?

10595

14165

1

A.

Slide Two.

2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

3

MJ:

Your Honor, permission to publish Slide Two?

Go ahead.

4

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

5

full view of all court-martial participants.]

6
7

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, is this Slide Two [referring to the

projection screen]?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

And could you please explain to the Court this

10

demonstrative exhibit on how Wget downloads this filename.pdf from a

11

web server?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

Again, in the lower left is the user.

They use

The -- is -- it goes to the website; again website.sgov.gov.

13

Wget.

14

It downloads the file name .pdf, and that is then saved locally on

15

the machine.

16

Q.

17
18

And when a user runs Wget -- and your example uses a PDF,

is that also what you just describe the same for a web page?
A.

It depends on how you want to do it.

19

say download a web page and it will.

20

web page only pick out certain files.

21

configurable tool.

22

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

23

You can -- you can

You can also tell it to go to a
It is a -- Wget is a very

I’m removing Slide Two, Your Honor.

[The Trial Counsel removed the slide from the projection screen.]

10596

14166

1

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, before I proceed, all of the next few

2

questions will be based on your knowledge of Wget on a computer

3

regardless of whether it is authorized or not to be installed or

4

stored on a computer -- just about the capabilities.

5

speaking, how does a user introduce Wget onto there their Windows

6

based computer?

7

A.

Technically

They would go to -- open up a web browser, navigate to a

8

web site that has the file Wget, download it, and save it to the

9

desktop.

10

Q.

Now what if -- so same -- now the same question on a

11

technical basis, how does and intro -- one -- how could one introduce

12

Wget onto a SIPRNET computer?

13

A.

User would open a web browser, search for Wget, download it

14

to on the NIPRNET computer, put it on some kind of transport medium,

15

a CD, for example, and then walk over to the SIPRNET and put the CD

16

into the SIPRNET computer and copy the file from the CD onto their

17

user profile.

18

Q.

Where on a computer can Wget be run from?

19

A.

Anyplace the user has access.

20

Q.

And what do you mean by that?

21

A.

User accounts -- there's -- Windows has permissions.

22

There's certain places it cannot -- a user cannot access; for

23

example, the Windows folder itself or other profiles on the computer.

10597

14167

1

Q.

And what do you mean by profiles?

2

A.

User accounts -- other people who have logged onto that

3

computer, they would -- it would create a profile, and that would be

4

-- a normal user could not access the files in those.

5

Q.

Now, again, technically speaking, can Wget be run from a CD

6

or DVD?

7

A.

It could.

8

Q.

Could it be run from a USB drive?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

What about an SD card?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

A share drive?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

And is Wget a program that must be installed?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

Why?

17

A.

It is a self-contained executable.

18

Q.

And what is a “self-contained executable?”

19

A.

That is a -- it’s a program that does not need any other

20

libraries or any other files run.

21

into itself.

22

Q.

And when you say “library” what do you mean?

23

A.

Libraries; when programming files on Windows computers

10598

It has everything it needs built

14168

1

there are various libraries.

2

need that.

One is a mouse library.

It does not

It has all the components rolled into it.

3

Q.

Is there a difference between a program and an executable?

4

A.

They're synonymous.

5

MJ:

They’re what?

6

WIT: They’re the same thing.

7

Q.

8

And before we keep going, in your own words, what is

essentially a program or executable?

9

A.

It is ----

10

Q.

Specifically, how does it distinguish from another type of

A.

It is a program.

11
12
13
14

file?
A program is a file that can interface

with a -- the operating system to execute a task.
Q.

Based on your experience with Windows computers, is there

15

any process or limitation that could be used to prevent a program

16

from being installed on a computer?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And what is that?

19

A.

You would need administrator level privileges to install a

20
21

program.
Q.

Now based on your experience with Windows XP computers, is

22

there any process or limitation that could be used to prevent a self-

23

executable file from being installed on a computer?

10599

14169

1

A.

You can’t install it, sir.

2

MJ:

Excuse me.

3

WIT: I’m sorry, he used the word “installed.”

4

MJ:

5

WIT: A self-contained executable is not a file that can be

6
7

installed.
Q.

Yes.

It's a single file.
Well, then what is it?

How is it that a self -- how does a

8

self-executable get moved onto a computer to run it if it's not

9

installed?

10
11
12

A.

You copy it from the source -- a CD or -- and just copy it

over to the local -- up to the user account?
Q.

Okay, so then in your experience, is there a way that

13

Windows XP computers prevent a user from copying over self-executable

14

files onto a computer ----

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

---- from an external drive?

17

A.

No, sir.

18

Q.

Based on your experience with Windows XP computers, is

19

there any process or limitation that can be used to prevent a self-

20

executable file from being run on a computer or any other storage

21

device?

22

A.

Sorry, could you repeat that question again?

23

Q.

Absolutely.

Based on your experience with Windows XP

10600

14170

1

computers, is there any process or limitation that can be used to

2

prevent a self-executable file from being run on a computer or an

3

external media device?

4

A.

There is a software suite called HBSS, a host base security

5

system, which is a -- a Department of Defense program which has a lot

6

of policies.

7

Q.

8

It can prevent a file like that from being run.

And so specifically can this HBSS prevent a self-executable

from being run on a computer or from its peripheral?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

During your examination of PFC Manning’s DCGS-A SIPRNET

11

computer .22 .40 what operating system was installed?

12

A.

Windows XP.

13

Q.

And was HBSS installed on those computers?

14

A.

No, sir.

15

Q.

To the best of your knowledge, when you were still in the

16

Department of Defense, did the Department of Defense use HBSS

17

technology on SIPRNET in 2009/2010?

18

A.

No.

19

MJ:

That’s HBSS or HPSS?

20

WIT: B.

21

MJ:

Okay.

22

Q.

And what does HBSS stand for?

23

A.

Host-Based Security System.

10601

14171

Q.

1

From your examination of the .22 and .40 computers, was

2

there any computer technological limitation from running a self-

3

contained file executable file from the hard drive or peripheral?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

So based on your exam’ of -- of PFC Manning's SIPRNET

6

computers, what was the only way a user could be prevented from

7

either copying a self-contained executable over or running one from a

8

CD?

9
10

A.

Policy was one.

To remove it from the CD was to prevent it

from being copied from a CD would be to remove the CD -- a CD ROM.

11

Q.

I'm sorry?

12

A.

I’m sorry.

13

Q.

No, go ahead.

14

A.

I -- the -- the technical limitation would be to remove a

15

CD player from the computer so you cannot copy it off.

16

ports, but there’s -- that's it for technology.

17
18

Q.

Remove USB

So just to make sure the Court understands is, you're

saying remove the actual physical CD ROM out of the computer?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

In your examination of Private First Class Manning’s .22

21

and .40 computers, did you find any evidence of Wget being run?

22

A.

I did.

23

Q.

Where did you find the evidence of Wget being run?

10602

14172

1

A.

From the prefetch file.

2

Q.

What are “prefetch files?”

3

A.

This is a Windows program -- it’s a Windows system file

4

that's created to help Windows start programs faster the next time

5

you use them.

6

Q.

So how does Microsoft Windows use a prefetch file?

7

A.

When a program is first run, a prefetch file is created.

8

It contains some information -- some of the memory -- some of the

9

file is kept there.

So when you double click the program a second

10

time, it's injected into the RAM faster.

11

speed up launching of programs.

12

Q.

So this is Window’s idea to

And could you give the Court an example -- use Microsoft

13

Outlook as an example of how Windows would use these prefetch when

14

you run Microsoft Outlook?

15

A.

The first time you launch Outlook a prefetch file would be

16

created.

17

again, the time prefetch file would be created.

18

a part of the program in RAM.

19

launch it for the second time it would launch faster -- it would

20

start faster.

21

Q.

22
23

It would capture the path of where it was run from and,
But it would capture

So when you terminate Outlook and you

Now, Special Agent Shaver, what is actually contained

within the prefetch files for each program?
A.

The path of the executable, the time and date or the date

10603

14173

1

last run, the date it was created, and how many times it had run.

2

Q.

What do you mean by “the path” of the executable?

3

A.

Where it was physically located on the computer.

4

Q.

Is that similar to a URL?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And how is it similar?

7

A.

It is just a location, but it would be a location on the

8

local machine.

9

Q.

Why is the path captured within the prefetch file?

10

A.

It's to -- it’s a Microsoft decision to do that.

But it

11

allows you to -- if you have multiple instances of the same program;

12

each program has a prefetch file, so they can all launch faster the

13

next time.

14

Q.

What do you mean by “multiple instances of a program?”

15

A.

Say if you have several copies of your example Outlook, if

16

you had Outlook located on several locations on the computer they can

17

run -- they would launch faster the second time.

18
19

Q.

So what happens to the prefetch file if a program is run

from a different location on the same user's computer?

20

A.

A new prefetch file could be created.

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Special Agent Shaver, I'm handing you what's been

22

marked as Prosecution Exhibit 188 for identification.

23

review that and look up when you’re finished reading [handing the

10604

Would you

14174

1

document to the witness].

2

Q.

Do you recognize that document?

3

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

4

Q.

What is it?

5

A.

This is a document I created.

6

Q.

And -- well, what is the actual document?

7

A.

The document is the -- it's a listing of prefetch files

8

from the .22 computer, which were created by the Wget.exe program.

9

Q.

And how do you recognize that document?

10

A.

I created this.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

12

MJ:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14
15

Thank you.

Your Honor, permission ----

Which exhibit is it?

identification.
MJ:

Okay.

Your Honor, it’s Prosecution Exhibit 188 for

Permission to publish, Your Honor.

Go ahead.

16

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

17

full view of court-martial participants.]

18

MJ:

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

20

Has that exhibit been admitted yet?
No, it has not, Your Honor.

It’s for

identification.

21

MJ:

Okay.

22

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

23

for you, Special Agent.

I’m going to zoom in to make it a little easier

10605

14175

Q.

1

Starting at the top, Special Agent Shaver, could you please

2

explain or really orient the Court on what is -- what is listed

3

across the top for this exhibit?
A.

4
5

The top is the file I -- I named it

theprefetchfiles.Wget.exe from .22.

6

Q.

Now you -- did you add that title?

7

A.

I did.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

The first column is a line number.

And now what is the first column?
The next column is the

10

prefetch file name, and that's also has the path, the date that the

11

prefetch file was created, the date the last -- that prefetch was

12

last run.

13

file.

14
15

The next column is the program which created that prefetch

TC[MAJ FEIN]:
the monitor].

16

WIT: Thank you.

17

A.

18
19

And I'll move this for you [moving the slide on

And the last is the path contained within the prefetch file

of where that Wget program was run from.
Q.

So you've now mentioned -- just before we even get into the

20

information contained within the exhibit, you mentioned the word

21

“path” twice.

22

it with the prefetch file name and the path for a -- inside of the

23

prefetch file; what's the difference between those two paths?

What is the difference between the first time you said

10606

14176

A.

1

The path -- the first one -- the column on the left, that's

2

the actual physical location on the computer of that Wget prefetch

3

file.

4

there is the Wget prefetch files.

5

-- looking within those individual prefetch files of -- and it shows

6

you where Wget was run from.

You can site -- it's C:\Windows, forward name is prefetch and
The path on the right is within --

7

Q.

Now, when you say “run from” what do you mean?

8

A.

The location on the hard drive where it was executed.

9

Q.

And how did you create this exhibit; Prosecution Exhibit

10
11
12

188 for identification?
A.

This is a -- this is -- by using the EnCase forensic

program, I extracted this information.

13

Q.

And what information did you extract and what information

14

did you add?

15

A.

I added the first -- the first column, which is line

16

numbers and the -- the fifth column, the program switch create --

17

which created the prefetch files.

And I also created the header.

18

Q.

On the top?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And is this a fair and accurate representation of the

21

information that you pulled from EnCase?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

What information on this document did you add -- well, you

10607

14177

1

just -- you just explained that.

2

prefetch file to the far right, could you please explain to the Court

3

what that means as far as the first entry for Number One?

4

A.

So going now to the path within the

It means that Wget.exe was run from documents and settings

5

bradley.manning/mydocuments/yada, folder 060000, and that's where it

6

was run from.

7

Q.

How do you know that?

8

A.

That is within the prefetch file.

9

Q.

It that a -- is that automatically generated?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And for another example, what about Line 20?

12

explain Line 20?

13

line for the Court, please.

Could you

And actually start from the line number and explain

14

A.

The -- Line Number 20 ----

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

16

WIT: Thank you.

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

A.

I’ll zoom in for you and move it.

Go ahead.

The first column is the line number, Number 20.

The second

19

is the physical location of the Wget prefetch file on the .22

20

computer.

21

-- the second column -- fourth column, excuse me, is the date it was

22

last run.

23

And the last column shows the path where is run from; it was

The next one is the date it was first created and the date

Wget.exe was the program that created the prefetch file.

10608

14178

1

documents and settings bradley.manning/mydocuments, the folder named

2

bloop.

3
4

Q.

And so when you say a program is run from there, Wget in

this instance, where was it physically saved on the hard drive?

5

A.

6

bloop folder.

7

Q.

8
9

It was physically saved in the directory as shown; the

And while this image is still up, what does the term

“unknown” mean in the far right column?
A.

Several of the Wget files have been deleted and

10

overwritten, and the contents have been rewritten.

11

where they were run from.

12
13

Q.

I don't know

Now when you say the Wget file, do you mean the Wget or the

Wget prefetch files?

14

A.

The Wget prefetch files.

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I'm going to zoom out here, Special Agent Shaver,

16

to show the whole document [moving the document on the projection

17

screen].

18

Q.

Why are there 20 instances listed here -- 20 rows?

19

A.

That means Wget was run from 20 different locations on that

20
21
22
23

hard drive.
Q.

In your experience, why would a user run Wget from

different locations?
A.

You can use -- to download files -- if Wget is run from

10609

14179

1

multiple locations at the same time, they can all -- they can each be

2

downloading a large set of files.

3

simultaneously, you can download an even larger set of files.

So together, running

4

Q.

Where did PFC Manning store Wget and run the program from?

5

A.

Which time?

6

Q.

Well, what computer was it stored on?

7

A.

This is the .22.

8

Q.

And did you see any -- I asked you a very broad question,

9

but based off of your analysis at least of the prefetch file, what

10

was the general location or the most specific location where they all

11

were run?
A.

12
13

In “my documents” folder within the bradley.manning user

profile.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

15

Prosecution Exhibit 188 for identification as Prosecution Exhibit

16

188.

17

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No objection, ma'am.

18

MJ:

19

All right.

May I see it?

[The Trial Counsel handed the document to the Military Judge.]

20

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 188 for identification’s admitted.

21

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, in your career how many U.S. Army

22
23

computers have you examined?
A.

Hundreds.

10610

14180

1

Q.

How many Army computers with Windows have you seen Wget on?

2

A.

Two.

3

Q.

And which ones were those?

4

A.

.22 and .139.

5

Q.

Are those computers that are in this case?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And once Wget is copied onto a computer how does a user run

8

Wget?

9

A.

From the command prompt.

10

Q.

What do you mean by “command prompt?”

11

A.

The command prompt is a Windows program which allows a user

12

to interface with the operating system and run programs which have a

13

nongraphical interface.

14

MJ:

What does that mean?

15

WIT: Ma’am, a graphical interface.

You can interact with it.

16

You can use your mouse.

17

nongraphical is just a command -- it’s just text.

18

pictures.

19
20

Q.

You can -- you can click on it.

The

There’s no -- no

Special Agent Shaver, do one of the slides you created help

demonstrate what a command prompt looks like?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And which slide is that?

23

A.

Slide Four.

10611

14181

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

2

MJ:

Your Honor, permission to publish Slide Four.

Go ahead.

3

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

4

full view of all court-martial participants.]

5
6

Q.

Now, Special Agent Shaver, before we continue -- just to

seek clarification for the record -- what is this -- Slide Four?

7

A.

8

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

That is a command prompt.
I’m sorry, let me zoom out because there’s some

text on top [zooming out on the projection screen as indicated].

10

Q.

And how did you create this image of a command prompt?

11

A.

I created a Windows XP virtual machine.

12

added the user bradley.manning.

13

as that profile.

14

prompt, and I took this screenshot.

15

Q.

I then created --

I then -- from that I logged into --

I then started the command program -- the command

And I'm going to ask you about how -- how you started the

16

command prompt -- we'll get to that in a moment, but just -- again,

17

is this from PFC Manning's actually -- actual computer?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

And -- and how did you create this demonstrative aid?

20

A.

Again, I created a Windows XP virtual machine.

21

user account called bradley.manning.

22

bradley.manning user account.

23

this screenshot.

I added a

I then logged into the

I started a command prompt, and I took

10612

14182

Q.

1

So going back to the -- the Court's question about

2

graphical user interfaces, how does the command prompt that is

3

displayed up here -- or a command prompt -- how does one use the

4

command prompt in general?

5

A.

You would enter commands by text.

6

Q.

And what do you actually mean by that?

7

A.

You would actually type out the commands.

8

Wget.

9

location of the file where you would like to download it from.

10

You would identify the
And

then would you hit enter.
Q.

11
12

And you would you put several options.

In this case

Now when you use the command prompt, do have to use a mouse

to click on options?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

And does the command prompt let you navigate web pages?

15

A.

No.

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

Your Honor, I'm pulling off Slide Four of the

exhibit [removing the slide from the projector screen].
Q.

What happens when a user double clicks a program in Windows

20

A.

It will start.

21

Q.

Does that matter if it's an installed program or -- or --

18
19

22
23

XP?

is that true for an installed program?
A.

Yes.

10613

14183

1

Q.

Is that also true for a self-contained executable?

2

A.

It depends on the executable; what its function is.

3

Q.

And what -- what do you mean by that?

4

A.

If, for example, the -- something executable is Wget, if

5

you double clicked on it, the command prompt would open and close and

6

nothing -- it would not do anything.

7

Q.

Why?

8

A.

Because it was never -- there's no graphical component to -

9

- built into that.

It’s -- again, it's a command line tool only.

10

Q.

So how does Wget run?

11

A.

It runs by use of -- through a command prompt -- a command

12

line.

You type Wget.

You would tell it to -- what you would like to

13

save the file name as, and where would you like to get file from.

14

Q.

And are there options that a user has when they run Wget?

15

A.

Yes, sir.

16

Q.

And what -- how does one learn of those options?

17

A.

If you -- in the command prompt if you type Wget and you

18

put space dash H; H for help, you hit enter, the help file will

19

appear on the screen.

20

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, I'm handing -- Your Honor, I’m

21

handing Special Agent Shaver Prosecution Exhibit 189 for

22

identification [handing the document to the witness].

23

Shaver, could you please review that and let me know when you're

10614

Special Agent

14184

1

finished.

2

[The witness did as directed.]

3

Q.

Thank you.

What is that document?

4

A.

This is a document that I pulled -- I extracted from the

5

.22 computer from bradley.manning's user profile.

6

help output file.

It is the Wget

7

Q.

How do you recognize that document?

8

A.

My initials are on it and.

9

Q.

And have you seen the information on that document before -

10

- even before finding it on PFC Manning’s .22 computer?

11

A.

I have.

12

Q.

And where have you seen the information within that

13

document?

14

A.

The use of Wget.

15

Q.

What did you mean by that?

16

A.

While at the CCIU I had -- I was -- I used Wget on a

17

regular basis.

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

19

MJ:

Your Honor, permission to publish?

Go ahead.

20

[The Trial Counsel displayed the document on the projection screen in

21

full view of all court-martial participants.]

22
23

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, could you please explain briefly what

this document -- explain what the document also is trying to explain?

10615

14185

1

A.

How do use Wget.

There are -- it is a three-page document

2

of all of the options you can do with Wget.

3

line you would have to build to make it run.

4

Q.

And what do you mean by “options?”

5

A.

To do something -- it's a choice.

And this is the command

6

capital O -- you see that.

For example, the dash

It’s ----

7

Q.

Where with is dash capital O?

8

A.

It's like ----

9

Q.

Is it under a subsection?

10

A.

---- yes, download.

11

Q.

It’s under download?

12

A.

It is.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

That writes documents to a file.

Is it the second down from download?

So, please, go ahead.

What about dash capital O?
So if you download a file

15

it will tell -- you would tell it the file name, it will write that

16

file name.

17

Q.

So when a user's running Wget, what -- how does one

18

download a file of a file name like you just described?

19

have to put into the command prompt?

20

A.

What do they

They would have to put Wget space dash capital O a file

21

name followed by the URL of the location of the file would you like

22

to download.

23

Q.

What do you mean again by the “URL?”

10616

14186

1

A.

That is a location on the internet where the file resides.

2

Q.

Going back to these options, how many options do you

3

estimate there are for running Wget?

4

A.

There are three pages; quite a few.

5

Q.

Three pages worth of these types of options?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And so what does a user have to figure out ahead of time

8

before they run Wget?
A.

9

What they want to do.

They need to first identify where

10

the file is on the internet; where they would like to download it

11

from.
Q.

12
13

file they need to download?
A.

14
15

18
19
20

Wget needs to be a -- it needs a specific location of the

file on the internet to down -- to be downloaded.
Q.

16
17

Why -- why -- why does a user need to know where and what

Wget?

And what else must a user do before they can actually run

You mentioned they have to identify a certain document?
A.

They need the full path of the document.

They also have to

obviously have Wget, and where they want to store it.
Q.

And now you're just talking about if -- I assume, and

21

please correct me if I'm wrong, that this is only if you're

22

downloading a single document, correct?

23

A.

Correct.

10617

14187

1

Q.

But there are other ways to run Wget?

2

A.

Yes, many.

3

Q.

And why must a URL or address be specific?

4

A.

The internet is not vague.

5

to find a specific file.
Q.

6
7

It has to be specific address

And so once a user puts in this information into the

command prompt, what do they do?

8

A.

Hit enter.

9

Q.

And what happens then?

10

A.

Wget will navigate to the URL in question, and download the

11

file that you specified, and save it as the file name that you have

12

specified.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

14

Prosecution Exhibit 189 for identification as Prosecution Exhibit

15

189.

16

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No objection.

17

MJ:

18

May I see it, please?

[The Trial Counsel handed the document to the Military Judge.]

19

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 189 for identification’s admitted.

20

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, do one of the slides you created help

21

explain the components of Wget -- the Wget command and how a user

22

would run it?

23

A.

Yes.

10618

14188

1

Q.

What slide?

2

A.

Slide Number Three.

3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

4

Three.

5

MJ:

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

Your Honor, permission to publish Slide Number

That’s from the exhibit you were using earlier?
I’m sorry.

Yes, Your Honor, from Exhibit 187 for

identification.
MJ:

187.

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel displayed the document on the projection screen in
full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Now, Special Agent Shaver, could you please explain how did

you create this slide?
A.

I made up a web address, and I looked at the help file, and

I broke it down by sections.
Q.

So could you please explain to the Court based off this

16

slide, again, how a user would download a single file from a known

17

web server?

18

A.

The -- from the left to right, the -- Wget is the first

19

command; you type Wget.

The next one is dash capital O and the file

20

name one.pdf, this tells -- this is what you want to save and where

21

you want to save it.

22

of the web server and where -- where it's located on the internet.

23

And finally the last block is the file name would you like to

The next block is the web address of the web --

10619

14189

1
2

download.
Q.

Now, Special Agent Shaver, you said that the dash capital O

3

and then you didn't say space, but there's a space up there and the

4

file name tells you where you want to save it in the file name. What

5

do you mean by “where you want to save it?”

6

A.

The path to where you would like to save a file.

If you’re

7

running Wget from one folder and you would like to save it to another

8

you would have to put in a different path so the program knows where

9

to store the file.

10

Q.

So if you do not put this -- this path information in like

11

in this example here, where does that file that's being downloaded

12

through Wget -- where does it store on the hard drive?

13

A.

The same lo -- the same folder that Wget is run from.

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, removing Slide Three of prosecution

15

Exhibit 187 for identification [removing the document from the

16

projection screen].

17
18

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, during your investigation did you

visit the Net-Centric Diplomacy web site?

19

A.

I did.

20

Q.

Did the web site have a web page?

21

A.

It did.

22

Q.

What was that address for URL of that web page?

23

A.

NCD.state.sgov.gov.

10620

14190

1

Q.

And was that of the website or web page?

2

A.

That is the web page -- that is the website.

3

Q.

And what was the actual address of the web page for the NCD

4

database?

5

A.

HTTP://NCD.state.sgov.gov/index.HTML.

6

Q.

And when you were on that web page was that the main page

7

for NCD database SIPRNET?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

And how do you know that?

10

A.

I went there.

11

Q.

And did that website give you an option to -- to view

12

cables on its face?

13

A.

No, you had a -- there was a search function.

14

Q.

And did you attempt to search for a cable?

15

A.

I did.

16

Q.

Did you search for a cable?

17

A.

I did.

18

Q.

And what happened once you searched for a cable?

19

A.

The cable -- I was present with a choice and you could view

20
21
22
23

the file -- click on the cable and view the -- the contents.
Q.

And when you clicked on the cable to view its contents,

what happened on your computer when you clicked on the cable?
A.

It -- it stayed -- displayed it within my web browser.

10621

14191

Q.

1
2

Now is that an example of a link to another web page you

testified about earlier?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And why did -- in general, why did you go to NCD database

5

for this case?
A.

6
7

case.

8

like.

This case -- I was told NCD cables were involved in this

I had never seen one before.

I wanted to see what one looked

9

Q.

And when did you go to the web page?

10

A.

Summer of 2010.

11

Q.

Thank you.

And now I'd like to focus your testimony on how

12

PFC Manning ran Wget on his SIPRNET computer.

13

that PFC Manning had the program Wget.exe he saved in multiple

14

folders within his My Documents.

15

identification.

I am now going hand you PE 100 for

This is a previously marked.

16

[Pause]

17

MJ:

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

19

You testified earlier

Which exhibit are you pulling?
Prosecution Exhibit 100 for identification,

ma'am.

20

[Pause]

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I’m now handing you, Special Agent Shaver,

22

Prosecution Exhibit 100 for identification [handing the document to

23

the witness].

Please review that and look up when you’re finished.

10622

14192

1

[The witness did as directed.]

2

Q.

Do you recognize that document?

3

A.

I do.

4

Q.

And what is that document?

5

A.

This is the document backup that XLXS, which I extracted

6

from the .22 computer from the bradley.manning user profile.

7

Q.

And how do you recognize that document?

8

A.

I created the screenshot.

9

Q.

And is that same document you previously testified about a

10

month ago with Captain Morrow?

11

A.

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

13

MJ:

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

15

Yes, sir.
Permission to publish, Your Honor.

Go ahead.
Do you need some water, Special Agent Shaver?

[The witness was provided some water by the Trial Counsel.]
Q.

16

Can you please explain for the Court -- I’m actually going

17

to scoot this up [moving the document on the projection screen] first

18

of what of -- what type of -- what file type did this screenshot come

19

from?
A.

20
21
22
23

What type -- what file and what was its file type?
This was an Excel spreadsheet, and the file type would be

XLXS.
Q.

And what does the Wget at the bottom left of the exhibit

show -- or what is that?

10623

14193

1

A.

That is the -- the sheet of the workbook.

2

Q.

And now just using the top portion as an example, what does

3
4

this exhibit show?
A.

It shows Wget dash capital O save any file as

5

10canberra153.html from the website htpp: -- excuse me, from the web

6

server http://NCD.state.sgov.gov and a slash message slash reference,

7

and it’s the file it’s downloading is 10canberra153.

8
9

Q.

And so going through this example and -- are you -- and you

write line 10926?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

What web server is the file being downloaded from?

12

A.

The NCD web server.

13

Q.

How do you know that?

14

A.

From the address.

15

Q.

And what is the file name of the file being on this -- what

16

is the file name of the -- file on the server?

17

A.

The file name is 10canberra153 .

18

Q.

And do you recognize that naming convention through your

19

investigation?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And what is that naming convention?

22

A.

That is an MRN.

23

Q.

What is an MRN?

10624

14194

1

A.

Message Record Number.

2

Q.

And where have you seen that in general?

3

A.

Through this case and on the NCD website, sir.

4

Q.

Now is there a file type associated necess -- like on this

5

-- this prosecution exhibit for identification with what's sitting on

6

the web server?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

And what file type is it being served at?

9

A.

HTML.

10

Q.

How do you know that?

11

A.

Because it says ways Wget space dash capital O

12
13

10canberra153.html.
Q.

Now what information would PFC Manning need in order to

14

create this Excel document with Wget commands and specific web pages

15

on the web server?

16

A.

You first need to know obviously the address -- the URL of

17

the web server and all the -- the specific path to the files and a

18

listing of the files he would like to have downloaded.

19
20
21
22
23

Q.

Now why do you need the list of the files that you want to

download -- or why would he need the list of those MRNs?
A.

If you -- he needed to download them.

He wanted to

download them, so he needed a list of what to download.
Q.

Would Wget worked otherwise?

10625

14195

1

A.

I don't think so because the NCD -- these files were not

2

linked as a -- on mass to the front web page.

3

more or less, in the back end.

4

NCD.state.sgov.gov website -- web server to download -- to identify

5

the cables they wanted to download.

6

Q.

There was a database,

So the user would have to search the

And in order to obtain the information of the actual cables

7

and their names on the server, what would PFC Manning need to be able

8

to do or what did he need?

9

A.

He needed the address.

He needed the cable names.

10

Q.

And did you find any evidence of -- of how he obtained the

11

cable names?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And what evidence did you find of how he did this?

14

A.

On Intelink.

There was a search from the .22 computer to

15

the NCD.state.sgov.gov, and it queried -- was like a search of new

16

cables.

17

hundred cables or so.

And it was a listing -- and it provided a list of the

18

Q.

And did that result give a list of the cable name?

19

A.

It should have, yes.

20

Q.

And then what at least could a user do with a list of cable

21

names?

22

A.

In this case, copy them and then place them into Excel.

23

Q.

Now when you examined this Excel worksheet, or excuse me,

10626

14196

1

this backup.XLXS file, what did you observe on how Private First

2

Class Manning created these Wget commands?
A.

3

If you notice, sir -- if you notice at the top that says
Column A is nothing but the names itself with no

4

column B.

5

extensions and canbaras -- canbara153, for example.

6

-- this is a -- this is a function of Excel and concatenate the

7

contents of the first half -- the first column, which were just be

8

the names and it created this output.

What happened is

9

Q.

What do you mean by concatenate?

10

A.

Concatenate is a Excel function to put pieces together.

In

11

this case, this would -- he would -- it was going to create -- it was

12

going to put Wget dash O, and then it had -- instead of the file name

13

of this one, 10canberra153, it actually read the Column A and then

14

would put that in there automatically and followed by .html, and then

15

it would have that address and reference and then, again, it would

16

read from column A to populate this field.

17

it?

18

MJ:

19

from column A?

20

Let me stop you there.

It was a way to automated

Where do you get the information

WIT: We just -- that's where you read the names.

So you would

21

go to NCD, you would search for, in this case, newest cables.

22

would say, oh, here are your cables.

23

names, populate it into.

10627

It

You would copy that list of

14197

1

Q.

And -- and just that -- that last portion, how would -- how

2

would a user do that?

3

the newest 100 cables?

4

get it into Excel?

You have a web page, you said, and you have
What would you do on the computer in order to

5

A.

Highlight it, copy it, and then paste it into Excel.

6

Q.

And then once you paste it into Excel based off the

7

formulas in Excel what would happen in this Column B that we’re

8

looking at?

9
10

A.

This would populate it.

It would then create the Wget

commands.

11

Q.

Is that an automated process?

12

A.

It would be, yes.

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

14

Prosecution Exhibit 100 for identification as Prosecution Exhibit 100

15

[handing the document to the Military Judge].

16

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No objection, ma'am.

17

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 100 for identification’s admitted.

18

Q.

Now based off of your analysis of Private First Class

19

Manning's computer, what then did Private First Class Manning do with

20

that Excel spreadsheet with the Wget commands?

21

A.

Sir, you mean .22?

22

Q.

I’m sorry, yes, .22.

23

A.

He then would have copied Column B into a batch file and

10628

14198

1

then run the command.

2

Q.

Now what is a “batch file?”

3

A.

That is a file that contains a linear step of instructions

4

for programs to run in through command prompts.

5

it reads the first one.

6

line and third line and so on until it's done.

By linear, I mean,

And then once it’s done, it does the second

7

Q.

Now why would a batch file be needed in order to run Wget?

8

A.

Because in this matter -- the way this was done you would

9

have to either run them as a -- in mass as a batch file or copy and

10

paste each one into a command prompt, hit enter, it would download

11

copy and paste, and this was just a way to automate it.

12

Q.

And what final type is associated with batch files?

13

A.

The file type is .bat.

14

Q.

How does a user create a batch file?

15

A.

The easiest way is to open notepad, which is a text editor,

16

and find -- put your contents in there and then save it as a file

17

extension .bat.

18

Q.

Is a batch file a graphical user interface?

19

A.

It is not.

20

Q.

What is it?

21

A.

It is a -- again, it's just a command -- it's a series of

22

linear steps for the command prompt to execute.

23

10629

14199

Q.

1
2

And did you find any evidence of a batch file being used by

Private First Class Manning?

3

A.

I did.

4

Q.

What did you find in the unallocated space?

5

A.

In the unallocated space I found a partially deleted

6

remnants of a batch file.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

Special Agent Shaver, I'm now handing you

8

Prosecution Exhibit 190 for identification [handing the document to

9

the witness].

10

Q.

Do you recognize that document?

11

A.

[Looking at the document] I do.

12

Q.

And how do you recognize that document?

13

A.

This is a document I created.

14

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, we've just seen this for the first

This is an extract ----

We'd like the opportunity to talk about this document with our

15

time.

16

expert.

17

MJ:

All right, how long would you need?

18

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: 15 minutes, Your Honor.

19

MJ:

20

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

21

MJ:

All right, any objection.
No, ma'am.

All right, the Court will be in recess for 15 minutes.

22

Special Agent Shaver, the same rules apply.

23

[The court-martial recessed at 1637, 18 July 2013.]

10630

14200

1

[The court-martial was called to order at 1713, 18 July 2013.]

2

[The witness was on the witness stand.]

3

MJ:

Court is called to order.

Let the record reflect all

4

parties present when the court last recessed are again present in

5

court.

6

the record?

7

Major Fein, did you have something that you wanted to add to

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

Earlier, Your Honor, when the Court

8

came out to ask a question about the 641 offenses, when asked -- when

9

asking the United States, I stated that the Charge Sheet specifically

10

stated that the 641 offenses talked -- or state that a database

11

containing -- this is for the CIDNE 641 offenses, that the CIDNE

12

contained SIGACTS, and the actual Charge Sheet is charged that is the

13

CIDNE database containing the records, not SIGACTS.

14

the Court to continue.

15

MJ:

16

witness stand.

17

Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:

18
19

Go head.

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

If it may please

Let the record reflect the witness is on the

Special Agent Shaver, I'm showing you Prosecution

Exhibit 190 for identification [handing the document to the witness].

20

Q.

Have you seen this document before?

21

A.

[Looking at the document] I have.

22

Q.

And what is this?

23

A.

This is a screenshot of the -- from the .22, the allocated

10631

14201

1

space.

It's a screen -- this is something I created.

2

Q.

And how do you recognize it?

3

A.

I created this.

4

Q.

And -- and what is it a screenshot of?

5

A.

The unallocated space.

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

MJ:

It has a deleted batch file.

Your Honor, permission to publish.

Go ahead.

8

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

9

full view of the court-martial participants.]
Q.

10

Now, before we broke, you testified about the use of batch

11

files and the different places you found evidence about -- of batch

12

files being run.

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

Q.

So where did this information that's on this exhibit come

16

A.

The unallocated space within .22.

17

Q.

And could you please explain for the Court what this

15

18
19

Excuse me one moment.

from?

extract from that unallocated space shows?
A.

It shows a series of Wget commands downloading a number of

20

MRNs -- Department of State cables from the Department of State

21

server.

22
23

10632

14202

1

Q.

And how does this extract compare to the -- at least

2

format-wise -- well, and content-wise to the Wget tab on the backup

3

XLXS file?

4

A.

It has the same content.

5

Q.

And what do you mean by that?

6

A.

And the same -- same format; Wget space dash capital O

7

space message record number .html, the web address to

8

ncstate.sgov.gov and the path, and finally the file, which is going -

9

-- which is being downloaded.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

Q.

And why do you conclude that this is a recovered batch file

from his .22 SIPRNET computer?
A.

Because that’s what a -- what a batch -- a batch script

would have looked like.
Q.

It's just a linear set of commands.

And when a batch file such as this one is run, what does

the computer do?
A.

It reads the first line and executes it, and then the next

line, and continues on through until it runs out of commands.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, United States moves to admit what has

19

been marked Prosecution Exhibit 190 identification as Prosecution

20

Exhibit 190 [handing the document to the Military Judge].

21

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]:

No objection, ma'am.

22

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 190 is admitted.

23

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, what is the NTuser.dat file?

10633

14203

A.

1
2

That is a Window's registry file that is -- pertains to a

specific user on a Windows computer.

3

Q.

And what do you mean by a “Windows registry file?”

4

A.

This is a file that every user -- every user account on the

5

computer has, and it maintains information about that user account.

6

For example, the last ten documents -- the Office doc -- Word

7

documents, that is maintained within your NTuser.dat file.
Q.

8
9
10

Now is this a file that's generated by the user or is it

automated -- is it an automatic -- or is it populated automatically
by Windows?

11

A.

It is an automatic file populated by Windows.

12

Q.

And in your example when you said like a Microsoft Office

13

file, is it -- is it a general Microsoft office file or is it by file

14

type?

15

A.

It's general -- it’s by file type.

16

Q.

And what information does it log when it comes to file

17
18
19
20
21

types?
A.

It will show you the last time -- last ten times that file

type has been accessed.
Q.

And was there any evidence in PFC Manning's NTuser.dat file

of BAT or batch files being run on his SIPRNET computer?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

How do you know that?

10634

14204

1

A.

Within the .22 profile -- .22 computer on the

2

bradley.manning user profile, I examined the NTuser.dat.

3

maintained the last ten batch files which would have been accessed.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

In there it

Special Agent Shaver, I'm now handing you

5

Prosecution Exhibit 191 for identification [handing the document to

6

the witness]. Would you please look at that, and look up when you’re

7

finished?

8

WIT: [Looking at the document] Yes, sir.

9

Q.

What is that document?

10

A.

This is a document I created.

11

This is a screenshot of the

NTuser.dat concerning the batch files -- the last ten batch files.

12

Q.

What do you mean by “concerning?”

13

A.

That's what it is.

14

These are the last ten batch files

which were opened and saved.

15

Q.

How do you recognize that document?

16

A.

I created it.

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

MJ: Go ahead.

Thank you. Permission to publish, Your Honor?

19

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

20

full view of all court-martial participants.]

21
22
23

Q.

So starting from the top down, could you please explain for

the Court what this exhibit reflects?
A.

The first line is the actual key -- the registry key where

10635

14205

1

this information was stored.

2

that key had been updated.

The next line is the last written time

3

Q.

And -- I’m sorry, what do you mean by “key?”

4

A.

The registry -- the registry stores as keys.

It’s a --

5

registry files is a -- it maintains files and information by the use

6

of keys.

7

its own information.

There -- it's like a database.

And each record would have

8

Q.

And what is the key that's being used for this exhibit?

9

A.

Well, it's located -- the -- it’s software -- Microsoft

10

Windows current version Explorer com DLG 32 open save MRU BAT.

11

Q.

Now what does the “bat” at the end of that key mean?

12

A.

That is the batch files.

13
14
15
16

Anything with a .bat extension

was -- is there -- last ten.
Q.

And now what about the last written-in class name at the

top portion of this?
A.

The last name -- excuse me, the last written time is the

17

last time this batch file registry key had -- would have been

18

updated.

19

file had been opened and saved.

20
21

Q.

What that means is the last time that something -- a batch

And now what does the first line under name type and data -

- what does that first line mean?

22

A.

That means the order of which things were put in.

23

Q.

What do you mean by “things put in?”

10636

14206

1

A.

The -- the registry keys.

The -- if you look at the left

2

it says MRU list, and then it has the first one as IGED, as you read

3

down, if you look from left to right under the top data field, again,

4

has the order of which the -- they were -- they were put in there.

5

was the first, B was the last, and then it goes up to I as being the

6

newest document.

7
8
9
10

Q.

And then what does the information show below that first

line where it says MRU list and the IGEDJAHD?
A.

It shows you the path of the batch files which have been

viewed -- or run.

11

Q.

What did you mean by “path?”

12

A.

The path; the physical location on the hard drive.

13

Q.

And what -- what did your observe and do you observe about

14
15
16

the these last ten bath files?
A.

They were all run from the bradley.manning user profile

under the My Documents in the folder bloop.

17

Q.

And how does one determine how to name a batch file?

18

A.

You can name it anything you want, but you must have --

19
20
21

should have -- have the extension .bat.
Q.

And so, for example, the second line Golf, what does that

tell you?

22

A.

23

folder.

That tells me the file move.bat was present in the bloop

10637

A

14207

1

Q.

And why does it tell you that?

2

A.

Because that was the path of where it -- it ran from.

3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Thank you.

Your Honor, the United States moves

4

to admit Prosecution Exhibit 191 for identification as Prosecution

5

Exhibit 191 [handing the document to the Military Judge].

6

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]:

7

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 191 is admitted.

8

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, did you find a folder on Private

9
10

No objection.

First Class Manning's SIPRNET computer that contained a batch file
and the associated files pulled using Wget?

11

A.

I did.

12

Q.

And where did you find that?

13

A.

Within the bradley.manning user profile on .22 and the

14

folder's name was bloop.

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, I'm retrieving from the court

16

reporter Prosecution 104 for identification [retrieving the document

17

from the court reporter].

18

MJ:

It’s 104.

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes.
Special Agent Shaver, I'm now handing you

20

Prosecution Exhibit 104 for identification [handing the document to

21

the witness].

22

Q.

Do you recognize that document?

23

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes, I do.

10638

14208

1

Q.

And what is that document?

2

A.

This is a screenshot of the EnCase forensics program I --

3
4
5

and I created.
Q.

Is that the same exhibit you referenced in your previous

testimony with Captain Morrow?

6

A.

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

8

MJ:

9
10
11
12
13
14

Yes.
Permission to publish, Your Honor.

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in
full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Now, Special Agent Shaver, could you please explain to the

Court what -- what is displayed in this exhibit that you pulled?
A.

What these are -- these are, again, as previous testimony -

- you will see the backup .XLXS.

15

Q.

Where are we looking?

16

A.

Six up from the bottom.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

And the -- also files.zip.

This files.zip was the

19

partially corrupted zip file we spoke of earlier.

And the second

20

from the bottom is move.bat; that is the batch file.

21

Q.

So just to orient, what is the left column?

22

A.

The column with the file name.

23

Q.

What is the right column?

10639

14209

1

A.

That was the -- the file creation time.

2

Q.

And what does the left column show?

3

A.

It shows the names in the files that were in that folder.

4

Q.

And what else -- what type of information is contained in

5
6

that folder pulled from the Department of State server?
A.

There are -- there were several MRNs -- deleted MRNs that

7

are there and the files.zip contains over 10,000 MRNs from the

8

Department of State server.

9

Q.

And what do you mean by deleted MRNs?

10

A.

They are -- have been deleted.

11

MJ:

How many files -- how many did it did it contain?

12

WIT: The files.zip contained over 10,000.

13

MJ: Thank you.

14

Q.

15
16
17
18
19
20
21

And what do you mean by -- well, first, what does that

symbol next to the MRN represent?
A.

If you look at the first one, that symbol means the file

has been deleted.
Q.

The ----

What is the -- I’m sorry to just interrupt for a moment --

what is the bigger symbol next to the MRN?
A.

It had been filed.

It shows it's a file and it shows that

it's the slash line through it means it's been deleted.

22

Q.

And ----

23

MJ:

Now, wait, I’m confused.

10640

What slash line through it?

14210

1

Q.

Could you use your screen and circle, please?

2

A.

I'll try. Right there [pointing to the projection screen].

3

MJ:

Oh, in the -- okay, got it.

4

Q.

So are you -- are you talking about next to the very first

5

entry

10ancra299.html that there is an icon that looks like a piece

6

of paper with a circle with a slash through it?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

And that's what you just circled?

9

A.

Yes, sir.

10

Q.

And what do you mean by it was deleted?

11

A.

The file has been deleted.

The contents -- the contents of

12

the file is -- has been deleted, but the entry within the master file

13

table, the MFT, is still present.

14

Q.

And could -- or did during forensic exams remnants of

15

deleted files -- Department of State files, specifically, were they

16

recovered?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And then you talked about backup .XLXS, is that the file

19

you were -- you testified about earlier?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Listed there -- and then what about move.bat?

22

A.

That is a batch file.

23

has been overwritten.

It has been deleted and the contents

I do not know what the exact content of that

10641

14211

1

was.

2

Q.

And what folder was -- is this showing the contents of?

3

A.

The file -- the file -- folder is bloop.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States movers to admit

5

Prosecution Exhibit 104 for identification as Prosecution Exhibit 104

6

[handing the document to the Military Judge].

7

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No objection.

8

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 104 for identification’s admitted.

9

Q.

So when Private First Class Manning was running Wget in his

10

My Documents folder, the way he had programmed it, where did the file

11

save to?

12

A.

The same folder the Wget was run from.

13

Q.

And how was that reflected in the exhibit that was just

14
15
16

displayed?
A.

The Wget files were there -- the HTML files that would

indicate Wget was run from that folder.

17

Q.

And would it be in the same folder as the batch file?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And was that specific move.bat file reflected or accounted

20

for in the NTuser.dat file?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Was running Wget.exe in that bloop folder captured in the

23

prefetch file?

10642

14212

1

A.

It was.

2

Q.

Now if Wget was run from a CD or DVD, how would that be

3

captured within the same files you've now discussed, if at all?
A.

4

It would not have -- the methodology that was used from the

5

backup.xlsx it would not have worked because you cannot write to the

6

CD.

7

within the user profile.

You would have to write to somewhere on the -- on the computer

8

Q.

Why is that?

9

A.

Because CDs are read-only.

You need to -- Wget knows how -

10

- Wget can download a file, but it has to be able to write the output

11

to something.

12

Q.

What if it's a rewritable CD?

13

A.

Another program would have to do that.

14
15
16
17
18
19
20

Wget does not have

that capability?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, permission to publish Slide Two of

Prosecution Exhibit 187 for identification.
MJ:

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in
full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, earlier you testified that -- as a

21

demonstrative this is -- excuse me, let me zoom out [adjusting the

22

document on the screen] -- that this slide you created shows how Wget

23

could run.

Using the same demonstrative exhibit, could you please

10643

14213

1

explain how PFC Manning, in your opinion, ran Wget from his SIPRNET

2

computer?

3

A.

First, he would have downloaded it -- downloaded from the

4

web site using a NIPRNET computer.

In this case .139.

The file was

5

burned to a CD, transferred over to the SIPRNET .22, .40.

6

it was then placed on his -- within his user profile.

7

navigated to NCD.state.gov using a web browser, identified the cables

8

that he wanted to download.

9

and pasted those MRNs into that, which would then populate the field

And then

He then

He then opened up -- backup.xlsx, copy

10

and create the correct command line for Wget to operate.

11

then have copied the Wget -- all the commands from backup.XLSX into a

12

batch file and then executed had batch file.

13
14
15

Q.

He would

And when that batch file executed, how did Wget retrieve

the web page from the web server?
A.

It downloaded the file by navigating directly to the web

16

server, copying the file from the web server, and saving it locally

17

as an HTML file.

18

Q.

So using your -- your aid, what path did it follow?

19

A.

The request went up the red line from the bottom left to

20

the middle; went to that one, and then it navigated to the files, and

21

then the return path would have been to a local machine.

22
23

Q.

And when that occurred did -- did PFC Manning's computer go

on to the Net-Centric Diplomacy web page that you visited to search

10644

14214

1

cables for?

2

A.

Wget did not, no.

3

MJ:

Wait.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

Q.

Say -- ask that question again.
Yes, ma’am.

When -- when PFC Manning would have run that from his

6

SIPRNET computer, did Wget access the web page to download the cables

7

or did it go straight to the server?

8

A.

It went straight to the server.

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

10

Prosecution Exhibit 187 for Identification as Prosecution Exhibit

11

187.

12

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, we would object.

The government

13

has asserted that it’s a demonstrative aid and, therefore, not proper

14

for admission.

15

MJ:

16

May I see it?

[The Trial Counsel handed the document to the Military Judge.

17

MJ:

18

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, it's not -- evidence that’s just

19
20

Why isn't a demonstrative aid proper for admission?

created by this witness.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

And additionally, Your Honor, the witness

21

testified that it would aid him in his testimony.

22

essentially reinforcing his testimony for the trier-of-fact.

23

used as a demonstrative aid as he was testifying in order to explain

10645

So this is
It was

14215

1

his testimony to the trial counsel -- to the trier-of-fact.

2

admitting this this would -- this is not evidence in the case.

3

is simply something that the witness created on their own in order to

4

aid their testimony.

5

MJ:

By

All right, demonstrative evidence can be admitted.

This

In this

6

case I don't see any basis for the defense objection, so I'm going to

7

go ahead and admit it understanding it's demonstrative.

8

Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:

9
10

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, I’d now like to direct your testimony

to -- to evidence you found of Twitter and Tweets?

11

MJ:

Yes [speaking to the defense]?

12

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, we're going to object.

13

government gave notice that they would elicit testimony about

14

WikiLeaks Tweets that were found on the accused’s personal Macintosh

15

computer.

16

Macintosh computer.

17

the link essentially to WikiLeaks Tweets were found on the computer.

18

So those Tweets weren't actually found on the computer.

19

evidence on the computer that PFC Manning ever viewed those Tweets or

20

saw those Tweets.

21

So we would say it’s not -- it's not appropriate for rebuttal.

22

addition, if we get to the point where we actually see the Tweets,

23

those Tweets -- we were told the purpose of them is to rebut the idea

Again, the

No WikiLeaks Tweets were actually found on PFC Manning’s
And we believe the witness would say the URLs or

There's no

There's no evidence that he went to the web page.

10646

In

14216

1

that WikiLeaks is a journalistic organization.

2

nothing to do with whether or not WikiLeaks is a journalistic

3

organization.

4

MJ:

5
6

Well, the Court agrees with that.

Those Tweets have

But what are you trying

to elicit?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, factual, the first part is absolutely

7

true, and Special Agent Shaver will testify that the found the links

8

to these Tweets, and then he went on to Twitter and found where they

9

were.

With the -- the purpose for this testify is exactly as we

10

articulated before, the United -- or the defense proffered the

11

evidence from Professor Benkler about the -- the relationship

12

WikiLeaks has to the -- the press -- as a press entity, and we intend

13

to offer these to show that if -- if the defense intends to argue

14

that PFC Manning knew that, then he would have also had evidence on

15

there that shows it was not.

16

see, will show that, or least provide a permissible reasonable

17

inference that it was not a legitimate news organization?

18

And these Tweets, as the Court will

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Our position on the substance of these Tweets

19

is that they have no bearing on WikiLeaks' relationship to the media

20

or their standing as a journalistic organization.

21
22
23

MJ:
let it in.
Q.

All right.

Well, I’m going to overrule that.

I’m going to

Go ahead.
Special Agent Shaver, over the past two weeks have you had

10647

14217

1

the opportunity to search Private First Class Manning's personal Mac

2

for any evidence of Twitter?

3

A.

I have.

4

Q.

And specifically any evidence that would relate back to the

5

WikiLeaks Twitter feed?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And where did you find evidence that you talk -- that you

8

answered yes to?

9

A.

In the unallocated space.

10

Q.

Did you find it anywhere else as well?

11

A.

In the allocated, yes.

12

Q.

And where in the allocated space?

13

A.

Within the B. Manning user profile there was a web browser

14

called Safari.

15

information to those link files -- or files pertaining to the

16

substance.

17

Q.

Inside there there was a database that contained

And what file on PFC Manning's personal Macintosh computer

18

did you find in the allocated space information related to Twitter

19

and WikiLeaks?

20

A.

It was a web icons.database.

21

Q.

What is a web icons.database?

22

A.

If you go to the web brow -- if you open up a web browser,

23

to the ----

10648

14218

1

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, we’re going to object.

Whether or

2

not there was evidence of Twitter or WikiLeaks on PFC Manning's

3

computer has no bearing whatsoever as to whether or not WikiLeaks is

4

a journalistic organization.

5
6
7

MJ:

Whether WikiLeaks is a journalistic organization, the

relevant inquiry is whether PFC Manning believed they were, right?
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Perhaps, Your Honor, but whether or not he ever

8

visited Twitter or WikiLeaks, that's already been established on the

9

merits, and it’s certainly not anything that we offered in our case

10
11

in chief.
MJ:

And so it’s unclear to us what’s being rebutted.
I disagree.

It's proper rebuttal for Mr. Benkler's

12

testimony.

Go ahead.

13

Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:

14

Q.

So what is web icons.database?

15

A.

That is the database that -- of --called Favicons, and

16

those are URL icons.

17

page, to the left -- in the address bar, to the left of it would be a

18

little WP.

19

maintained those -- of websites that have been visited.

20
21

Q.

If you were to go to the Washington Post web

It's a way of branding their web pages.

This database

And -- and is this database populated automatically by a

Mac or by Safari or is it done by the user?

22

A.

Populated automatically by Safari.

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Special Agent Shaver, I'm handing you what's been

10649

14219

1

marked as Prosecution Exhibit 192 for identification [handing the

2

document to the witness].

3

please.

4

[The witness did as directed.]

Would you please review that and look up,

5

Q.

What is that document?

6

A.

This is a document I created.

7

This contains the web page

icons database.

8

Q.

How do you know that?

9

A.

I created this.

10

Q.

Where did -- where did that information come from?

11

A.

It came from the file called -- a file located in the

12

Macintosh hard drive.

The path is

13

usersbmanninglibrarysafariwebpageicons.db.

14

Q.

And was this in the allocated or unallocated space?

15

A.

It was allocated.

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

Your Honor, permission to publish?

Go ahead.

18

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

19

full view of all court-martial participants.]

20

Q.

So, Special Agent Shaver, based off of my original

21

question, what information -- oh, first of off, what information on

22

this exhibit did you -- did you pull from the actual file?

23

A.

The second column and the third column.

10650

14220

1

Q.

And what are the column names?

2

A.

You URL and Icon ID.

3

Q.

What did you add to this?

4

A.

I added the -- the title above and the line numbers.

5

Q.

Now what does the title above show?

6

A.

The path of the file as it was located.

7

Q.

Is that the path you just discussed?

8

A.

It is.

9

Q.

And then what does the number reflect?

10

A.

The -- just a line number.

11

Q.

And are those sorted in any way?

12

A.

That's how it was -- when I extracted it, that is the order

13

it was in.

14

Q.

And then what does the URL column show?

15

A.

It shows a path to a web site.

16

Q.

And -- go ahead.

17

A.

A website or web server or individual article.

18

Q.

And what does the icon ID column tell you?

19

A.

This goes back to the icons I spoke of.

If you look at the

20

Twitter; all the Twitters have the same icon ID Number Three on the

21

right -- they all have the same icon.

22
23

Q.

So Twitter has its own icon.

And what does a user of Safari on a personal -- or on a

Macintosh have to do in order to have this database populate with an

10651

14221

1

entry?

2

A.

To go to that web page.

3

Q.

And what does Line 4 state?

4

A.

HTTP://Twitter.com/WikiLeaks.

5

Q.

And what is that website?

6

A.

That is the feed for -- the WikiLeaks feed for Twitter.

7

Q.

Now, is that the feed -- is that the exact path of the feed

8

today?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

What is different?

11

A.

Twitter has moved from HTTP to HTTPS.

12

Q.

And what’s the -- in very general terms, what is the

13

difference between HTTP and HTTPS?

14

A.

“S” adds a secure socket to make it encrypted.

15

Q.

And what does Line 6 -- what does that mean?

16

A.

That means on Twitter.com a search was conducted for the

17

key word WikiLeaks.

18

Q.

And what about Line 7?

19

A.

The same.

20

Q.

What about Line 8 and 9?

21

A.

Line 8 is a web page; WikiLeaks.com, path -- there’s a

22

folder called Wiki, and there’s a document of -- apparently was

23

accessed US_intelligence_plan to destroy WikiLeaks and there's a

10652

14222

1

date.

2

Q.

What about Line 9?

3

A.

Line 9 is the web page WikiLeaks.com/wiki/wikileaks.

4

Q.

What about 16 and 17?

5

A.

Sixteen is a web page -- Wikipedia concerning -- concerning

6

Julian Assange.

7

Q.

And line 17?

8

A.

Line 17 is a Wikipedia webpage concerning the WikiLeaks.

9

Q.

Now, you mentioned the Washington Post earlier.

Is there

10

any evidence here that PFC Manning also visited a website associated

11

with the Washington Post?

12

A.

I -- yes, 18.

13

Q.

How do you know that?

14

A.

The path; www.WashingtonPost.com.

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Thank you.

Your Honor, the United States moves

16

to admit Prosecution Exhibit 192 for identification as Prosecution

17

Exhibit 192.

18

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No objection.

19

MJ:

20

Let me see it.

[The Trial Counsel handed the document to the Military Judge.]

21

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 192 for identification’s admitted.

22

Q.

Special Agent Mander[sic], a moment ago before the Favicons

23

database, you testified that you found evidence of the WikiLeaks

10653

14223

1

Twitter feed in both the unallocated space and the allocated.

2

evidence did you find, in general, in the unallocated space?

3
4

A.

What

Several unique URLs to specific - twit -- Twitter Tweets

pertaining to WikiLeaks.

5

Q.

And what did you do when you found these?

6

A.

I went to the computer -- a NIPRNET computer, and I put

7

that address --

8

MJ:

You went to where?

9

WIT: To a NIPRNET computer.

I had to -- I wanted to see the

10

contents -- were these valid Tweets.

11

and plugged that URL in, and witnessed the results.

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

And so I went to the webpage

Special Agent Shaver, I'm handing you what's been

13

marked as Prosecution Exhibits 194 Alpha, Bravo and Charlie [handing

14

the documents to the witness].

15

when you've finished.

16

Would you look at those and look up

[The witness did as directed.]

17

Q.

Did you recognize those three documents?

18

A.

I do.

19

Q.

What are those?

20

A.

These are in EnCase reports concerning the mentioned Tweets

21

concerning .Twitter.com from the unallocated space of PFC Manning's

22

personal Macintosh computer.

23

Q.

Now are all three of those -- well, how did you -- are

10654

14224

1

those documents you created?

2

A.

They are.

3

Q.

And how did you create those?

4

A.

From EnCase I created a report based upon the finding.

5

Q.

And is that the report for all three of them?

6

A.

It is.

7

Q.

And is there any difference -- what are the differences

8
9

between those three pages?
A.

Two of these -- two of these are actual direct URLs into a

10

specific Twitter on WikiLeaks.

11

Twitter.com for the key word WikiLeaks.

12

Q.

13

on WikiLeaks.

14

A.

15

number.

And you said -- you said, I think, URL for -- for Twitter
What do you mean?

The address is Twitter.com/WikiLeaks/status and a unique

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

18
19
20

The third one is a search of

Permission to publish, Your Honor.

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in
full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, I'm publishing Prosecution Exhibits

21

194 Bravo and Charlie.

Now which -- you mentioned there's two

22

different types of the unallocated space information you found.

23

Which one is this?

10655

14225

1
2

A.

These are actual URLs to a Tweet that was recovered that --

found in the unallocated space of the personal Macintosh computer.

3

Q.

How do you know that each of those are URLs for Tweets?

4

A.

I put that address into a web browser and I went into the

5

Tweet itself.

6

Q.

7

And did those two addresses when you put into a web browser

pull up a Tweet?

8

A.

They did.

9

Q.

Different Tweets?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Now was the address that came up in the web browser

12

identical to the address on these two documents?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

What was different?

15

A.

The difference was, you should see -- it's site http://,

16
17
18

Twitter has now gone to https://.
Q.

Was everything after the HTTPS the same when you went to

Twitter?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And when did you go on Twitter?

21

A.

Past couple of days.

22

Q.

I'm now overlaying Prosecution Exhibit 194 Alpha -- and I’m

23

going to be zooming out [moving the document on the projection

10656

14226

1

screen].

2

unallocated space?

3
4

A.

Now what is this portion that you recovered from the

This is a -- from my writing -- you can read it is a search

on Twitter.com and key word was WikiLeaks.

5

Q.

And how do you know the key word was WikiLeaks?

6

A.

The Q equals is the search.

7

Q.

And what else -- what other information does this recovered

8
9
10

on unallocated space tell you?
A.

Off to the right there’s another Tweet identifier; 125 --

starts with the numbers 125 off to the right.

11

Q.

What's the whole number, please?

12

A.

12558544922.

13

Q.

How do you know that -- you call that a unique identifier,

14
15

how do you know that?
A.

I put that into -- again, I went to Twitter and put that in

16

as a -- as I’d done with the other two, and a Tweet concerning

17

WikiLeaks was there.

18

Q.

Now you said like the other two -- earlier you testified

19

that you basically copied and pasted the http:twitter --

20

//twitter.com -- that whole thing in there, did you copy and paste

21

this from Prosecution Exhibit 194 Alpha into Twitter?

22

A.

No, I just used the -- the unique identifier.

23

Q.

And then what else did you combine with that unique

10657

14227

1

identifier?

2

A.

The https Twitter.com WikiLeaks status.

3

Q.

And what occurred when you put that into the Internet

4

Explorer?

5

A.

A Tweet concerning WikiLeaks.

6

Q.

Now did you use Internet Explorer or Firefox?

7

A.

Internet Explorer.

8

Q.

And then what did you do once you put those into a NIPRNET

9

computer and brought up the Tweets?

10

A.

I printed them.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States is handing Special

12

Agent Shaver Prosecution Exhibit 13 Alpha through Charlie for

13

identification [handing the documents to the witness].

14

review those and look up when you’ve finished.

15

projector the three Exhibits 194 Alpha through Charlie [taking the

16

documents off the projection screen].

17

[The witness did as directed.]

18

Q.

Do you recognize those documents?

19

A.

I do.

20

Q.

What are those documents?

21

A.

These are the screenshots I created.

22

Q.

And how do you recognize them?

23

A.

My initials are on them.

10658

And please

And pulling off the

14228

1

Q.

Do you recognize them by the contents as well?

2

A.

[Reviewing the documents] Yes.

3

Q.

And earlier you testified that you used Microsoft Internet

4

Explorer.

What web browser did you use?

5

A.

I used Firefox.

6

Q.

And how do you know that?

7

A.

The Firefox tab is present.

8

Q.

And when you printed those -- or what else -- what else do

9

you recognize on that page?

10

A.

The background is the WikiLeaks logo.

11

Q.

How do you know that?

12

A.

I've seen it throughout this investigation.

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I'm going to retrieve from you those exhibits

14

[retrieving the documents from the witness].

15

Your Honor?

Permission to publish,

16

MJ:

17

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen

18
19
20

Go ahead.

in full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

So, Special Agent Shaver, I'm going to publish 194 and

portions of 194, also, Your Honor -- Prosecution Exhibit ----

21

MJ:

Go ahead.

22

Q.

So this is Prosecution Exhibit 194 Alpha for

23

identification, and here is the Tweet that is Prosecution Exhibit 193

10659

14229

1

Alpha for identification.

2

other?

How do these two documents relate to each

3

A.

They're the same unique identifier.

4

Q.

How do you know that?

5

A.

Because I copied that unique identifier into the browser

6

and I hit enter and this is the ----

7

Q.

When you say that what -- were you ----

8

A.

I’m sorry ----

9

Q.

---- sure.

10

A.

---- off to the right you see the number 125 ----

11

Q.

Which -- which first is it

12

A.

---- I’m sorry, the ----

13

Q.

---- the unallocated space EnCase image or is it the Tweet?

14

A.

In the unallocated Encase.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

It says 12558544922.

17

Q.

Yes.

18

A.

I copied and pasted that into the WikiLeaks status URL and

19
20

Describe what you’re talking about.

this is what arrived -- this is what was there.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

21

Prosecution Exhibit 194 Alpha and 193 Alpha for identification as

22

both 194 Alpha and 193 Alpha.

23

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: We do object, Your Honor.

10660

The Court has said

14230

1

it is relevant -- those things that informed PFC Manning's

2

understanding of WikiLeaks.

3

Manning actually saw those Tweets.

4

to those Tweets on his computer.

5
6

MJ:

This witness hasn't testified PFC

The witness ----

Then you can argue that when you do your closing argument.

The inference could be there.

Any other objection?

7

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No, ma'am.

8

MJ:

9

All he said was there were links

May I see it?

[The Trial Counsel handed the documents to the Military Judge.]

10

MJ:

Yes [speaking to the defense]?

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

MJ:

13

[Pause]

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

15

MJ:

Ma’am, that’s an overrule on the objection?

Yes.

Ma’am, permission to publish 193 and 194 Bravo.

Go ahead.

16

[The Trial Counsel placed the documents on the projection screen in

17

full view of all court-martial participants.]

18
19
20

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, similarly how do these two documents

relate to each other?
A.

The -- in the unallocated portion, the top, you can see

21

that address, the status, and that unique identifier.

22

put that to the -- I went to Twitter.com and put that same exact

23

address in, and what appeared was the one below.

10661

I pasted -- I

14231

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

2

Prosecution Exhibit 194 Bravo and 193 Bravo for identification as

3

both ----

4

MJ:

5

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Yes, ma’am.

6

MJ:

7

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

8
9
10
11
12

Any objections?

Overruled.
Your Honor, permission to publish 194 Charlie and

193 Charlie.
MJ:

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel placed the documents on the projection screen in
full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Similarly, Special Agent Shaver, how are those two

13

documents related?

14

[The witness did not respond to the question asked.]

15
16
17

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Ma’am, assuming our objection will be
overruled, we -- we just ---TC[MAJ FEIN]:

The United States moves to admit Prosecution 193

18

Charlie and 194 Charlie for identification as 193 Charlie and 194

19

Charlie [handing the documents to the Military Judge].

20
21

MJ:

All right.

And, defense, just for the record, your

objection is overruled.

I understand you made the same objection.

22

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Thank you, Your Honor.

23

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibits 193 Charlie and 194 Charlie are

10662

14232

1

admitted.
Q.

2

Special Agent Shaver, in reference to our searches for

3

Twitter on PFC Manning's personal Macintosh, why did you or your

4

office not search for Twitter related information prior to the past

5

few days?

6

A.

We didn't know it was important.

7

Q.

What do you mean by that?

8

A.

The focus of the exam -- original exams was to find

9
10

government data; State Department cables, documents related to
Guantanamo Bay, things along that nature.
Q.

11

Now, I'd like to focus your testimony on a specific email

12

that you’ve pulled as part of the forensic exam’ in the last few

13

days.

14

Private First Class Manning's personal computer to any emails related

15

to the New York Times?

Over the past week did the prosecution ask you to search

16

A.

I did.

17

Q.

What did you find?

18

A.

I -- I found one message.

19

Q.

And how did you find it?

20

A.

PFC Manning's computer was configured to use the ----

21

Q.

I'm sorry to interrupt real quick.

A.

PFC Manning's personal computer.

22
23

use?

10663

What computer did you

14233

1

Q.

Okay, please, keep going about the configuration.

2

MJ:

Yes [speaking to the defense]?

3

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Your Honor, before we -- before we go further,

4

the substance of this e-mail doesn't invoke WikiLeaks at all.

5

There's no explicit reference to WikiLeaks, it doesn't discuss PFC

6

Manning's views on WikiLeaks.

7

view, doesn't have any bearing on whether or not WikiLeaks is a

8

journalistic organization.
MJ:

9
10

An email to the New York Times, in our

May I see the email when I’m in my interlocutory capacity

here?

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

12

MJ:

13

[Pause]

14

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

May I have a moment, Your Honor.

Yes.

Your Honor, although there are two documents the

15

United States intends to use, they're identical except for the way

16

the -- the message was pulled.

17

Prosecution Exhibit 195 Bravo for identification [handing the

18

document to the Military Judge].

19

[Pause]

20

MJ:

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I'm handing you what's been marked as

Both are the ----

What is the point of this?
Your Honor, the United States is offering this

22

email to --to rebut the inference that PFC Manning thought WikiLeaks

23

was a legitimate news organization because this email shows that if

10664

14234

1

he had identified something that was news worthy he would have

2

actually gone and he tried to go or did go to a -- to the New York

3

Times.

4

or didn't know, then -- then this would be equally permissible

5

inference that he knew what legitimate was and that's not what he

6

used it for.

7

which is -- the United States will of course argue, if it's admitted,

8

which was just a few days after the public release of the Apache

9

video, and then contacted the New York Times about it.

So if the -- if the defense is arguing what PFC Manning did

And also note the date, Your Honor, dated April 8th,

10

MJ:

Why is it in the rebuttal case?

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, it’s in because the defense is -- the

12

defense offered the idea that PFC Manning would know what legitimate

13

press was through Professor Benkler.

14

Your Honor, then the United States is rebutting that if that is going

15

to be the inference they argue that a -- in rebuttal that he knew

16

what it actually was and not WikiLeaks.

17

are not consistent with that argument.

18

defense makes that argument, the United States would offer it's not

19

even relevant at that point -- for that reason.

20
21

MJ:

I don't see the connection.

And once they offered that,

And his actions are not -But until -- until the

I'm going to sustain the

objection on this one.

22

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

23

MJ:

Yes, ma'am.

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

Yes.

10665

14235

1
2
3

[Pause]
Questions continued by the trial counsel [MAJ FEIN]:
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, I’d now like to direct your testimony

4

to a SIGACT -- a specific SIGACT.

Over the past week did the

5

prosecution ask you to search Private First Class Manning's personal

6

computer for information related to an Iraqi publishing incident

7

concerning propaganda in 2010?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

And what did you find?

10

A.

Within the unallocated space of PFC Manning's personal

11

computer -- personal Macintosh there was a deleted SIGACT.

12

Q.

And how did you find that SIGACT?

13

A.

Based off of examination of volumes.txt file, I was able to

14

-- I looked down and these -- the -- I was told the SIGACT involved a

15

printing organization -- a printing, and some people were arrested.

16

Based off volumes.txt there was -- there was text files saying

17

arrested -- things along that nature.

18

on that same CD that was burned was a -- appeared to be a CIDNE key -

19

- a CIDNE tracking key, and I searched for that.

20
21
22
23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

And based -- in that same --

Your Honor, permission to publish Prosecution

Exhibit 127.
MJ:

Go ahead.

[The Trial Counsel placed the document on the projection screen in

10666

14236

1

full view of all court-martial participants.]

2

Q.

Special Agent Shaver, do you recognize this document?

3

A.

I do.

4

Q.

And what is it?

5

A.

It is volumes.txt.

6

Q.

And very quickly and generally what does this reflect?

7

A.

This is the -- this is the CD volumes that had been

8

accessed and recovered from the unallocated space of PFC Manning's

9

personal Macintosh computer.

10

Q.

What do you mean by “volume?”

11

A.

A column is volume is a CD in this case.

12
13
14
15
16

It's just mounted

and then accessed.
Q.

And then what is the numbers after volume slash and then

there's numbers?
A.

That's a date/time denotation.

So, for example, Line 18 is

March 4th, 2010, at 2258, that is was burned.

17

Q.

And then what's the last part of that -- what does that

18

denote?

19

A.

Line 18?

20

Q.

Sure, you can use that as an example.

21

A.

That appeared to me to be a CIDNE report key.

22

Q.

All right, but in general what is it?

23

A.

Those are the files on a CD.

10667

14237

1
2
3

Q.

So what did you do with volume.txt in order to find this

SIGACT that you’ve created to talk about?
A.

I looked at the -- I looked at that -- I saw -- I remember

4

seeing the propaganda translation arrest, propaganda notes.

I

5

thought that may have something to do with it, and I -- again, I

6

noticed that -- what appeared to be a CIDNE tracking key, which is

7

line 18.

8

unallocated space, and I was able to locate the document in question.

I then used that as a search -- a key word search of the

9

Q.

And what computer did you located it on.

10

A.

PFC Manning's personal Macintosh computer.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

I now want to hand you what's been marked as

12

Prosecution Exhibit 196 for identification, but I'm going to move

13

this cover in front of you [moving the classified document cover in

14

front of the witness].

15

[handing the document to the witness].

16

low, look at that, and look up when you're finished.

17

[The witness did as directed.]

I'm handing you Prosecution Exhibit 196
Would you please keep that

18

WIT: Yes, sir.

19

Q.

What is that?

20

A.

This is the recovered SIGACT that I spoke of.

21

Q.

And how do you recognize it?

22

A.

This is an EnCase report of that.

23

created and my initials are on it.

10668

This is something I

14238

1

Q.

And where was it located?

2

A.

In the unallocated space of PFC Manning's personal

3

Macintosh computer.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

4

Your Honor, the United States moves to admit

5

Prosecution Exhibit 196 for identification as Prosecution Exhibit

6

196.

7

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: No objection.

8

MJ:

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

May I see it, please?
We’ll put in a folder and just hand it to the

10

Court [doing as directed and handing the document to the Military

11

Judge].

12

MJ:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

further questions.

15

MJ:

Prosecution Exhibit 196 for identification’s admitted.
Your Honor, no

Defense?
CROSS-EXAMINATION

16
17

Thank you, Special Agent Shaver.

Questions by the assistant defense counsel [CPT TOOMAN]:

18

Q.

We meet again, Special Agent Shaver.

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Agent Shaver, let's start off by talking about WikiLeaks --

21

or about Wget?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

ADC[CPT TOOMAN] I'd like to retrieve Prosecution Exhibit 100,

10669

14239

1

please [retrieving the document from the court reporter].

2

[Pause]

3

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Ma'am, permission to publish?

4

MJ:

Go ahead.

5

[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection

6

screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]

7
8

Q.

Now, Agent Shaver, what we see on Prosecution 100 are

essentially the links to the NCD database, correct?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And if one wanted to go view -- we'll just look at the very

11

top line here -- Line 10926.

12

cable, they would put -- what would they put into -- into their

13

machine -- into their web browser?

14

A.

If one wanted to view that 10cambara153

You would start from where it starts HTTP, and would you

15

copy that all the way through 153 and put that in their web browser.

16

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Removing Prosecution Exhibit 100 [removing the

17

document from the projection screen] and returning that to the court

18

reporter [returning the document to the court reporter].

19

MJ:

187.

20

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I’m retrieving Prosecution Exhibit 187

21

[retrieving the document from the Military Judge].

22

publish, ma'am?

23

MJ: Yes.

10670

Permission to

14240

1

[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection

2

screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]

3

Q.

Now, Agent Shaver, when you talked on direct, you talked

4

about the process through which one would get cables from the NCD,

5

right?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And one of the ways of what you talked about was someone

8

going to the web page, so basically the NCD home page?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And once they got to the NCD home page they could do a

11

search?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And then once they did a search they might see a number of

14

links come up, correct?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

And they could click on that link, correct?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And then that link would take them to a page?

19

A.

Sure.

20

Q.

Perhaps that Cambera cable we just talked about?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Now if a person knew the URL for Cambera -- for that

23

Cambera cable, they could just type that directly into their browser,

10671

14241

1

wouldn't they?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

So a user doesn't have to go to the home page -- the NCD

4

home page in order to access the cable?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

So if I -- if we -- you just talked about that URL that was

7

pretty long, but if I just typed that into my URL -- or into my web

8

browser, I'd go to that Cambera cable?

9

A.

You would.

10

Q.

So I don't have to go to that home page in order to get to

11

that Cambera cable?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And the naming convention for Department of State cables is

14

the same for every one -- for those web pages -- the same for every

15

one?

16

A.

As far as I know.

17

Q.

The NCD up to the MRN?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And then you put in the MRN.html and you get to the cable?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

Now, you talked about the process through which PFC Manning

22

got these cables and you said that what he did was he went to the

23

home page, right?

He went to the NCD home page, is that correct?

10672

14242

1

A.

Yep.

2

Q.

And did some sort of search to find the most recent cables?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And he copied that?

5

A.

I'm assuming -- on that one I'm assuming.

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

Something.

8

Q

---- Control V -- pasted it into Excel?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

So he would have done a copy Control C ----

And that Excel document is what you used in order to

help him write whatever script ----

12

A.

Right.

13

Q.

---- that he used in Wget?

14
15
16

Now you testified on direct

that ---ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: And I'm going to flip over here to Page Two and
publish that [doing as indicated].

If I may, ma’am.

17

MJ:

Proceed.

18

Q.

Wget can just go directly to the server, right?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

But it's also possible -- now I’m going to put Page One

21

back up [doing as directed] -- that a user could go to the home page,

22

copy, paste, right -- they could go to the home page and do the

23

search and pull up the cables.

They can have the home page up.

10673

They

14243

1

could copy that information and put it into their Excel, correct?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Put it into Wget, and while the web browser’s still open

4

run Wget, correct?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

And there's no evidence to suggest that PFC Manning didn't
You can't say that he didn't have the NCD database

7

do that, correct?

8

open when he was running Wget?

9
10

A.

That's correct.

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Removing Prosecution Exhibit 187 and returning

11

that to the court reporter [removing the document from the projection

12

screen and returning it to the court reporter].

13
14

MJ:

Now, I’m going to stop you for just a minute.

fast, too.

15

WIT: Sorry, ma’am.

16

MJ:

17
18
19

That was

So explain to me what you -- what path your -- you just

described for Wget once again.
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Sure.

Yes, ma’am.

You want me to go through

the questions again?

20

MJ:

Yes.

21

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Okay, I’ll retrive Prosecution Exhibit 187

22

[retrieving the document from the court reporter].

23

publish, ma’am?

10674

Thank you.

And

14244

1

MJ:

Yes.

2

[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection

3

screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]

4
5

Q.

Agent Shaver, you talked about the process through which

PFC Manning got the MRNs, correct?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

And the process was going to NCD home page?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

Do a search for the most recent?

10

A.

Yep.

11

Q.

Find out what those are?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

They’re -- at that point they're on the screen?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

There's a list of MRNs on the screen, correct?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Highlight ‘em, past them into Excel?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

Then using Excel, PFC Manning would have written whatever

20

script he was going to use in Wget?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

And then Wget would have ran and done its thing and got the

23

cables?

10675

14245

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

Now, when that was happening the NCD home page could have

3

been open?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And there's no evidence in your analysis of PFC Manning's

6

Mac computer to suggest that he didn't have the NCD home page open

7

when he ran Wget?

8

A.

Sir, do you the mean .22?

9

Q.

I’m sorry, thank you.

Yes, the .22.

So there's no

10

evidence on the .22 machine that when PFC Manning was running Wget

11

the NCD home page wasn't open?

12

A.

Correct, because internet history was set to be cleared.

13

Q.

Okay.

So anything -- it's quite possible that PFC Manning

14

did the copy, had NCD open, pasted it into Excel, got it into Wget

15

and ran Wget while he was still on the NCD home page?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Or on the NCD search results?

18

A.

Yes.

19

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Okay.

Removing Prosecution Exhibit 187 for --

20

Prosecution Exhibit 187 and returning it to the court reporter

21

[removing the document from the projection screen and returning it to

22

the court reporter].

23

Q.

Now, you talked briefly on direct about something called

10676

14246

1

HBSS.

What was HBSS -- what does that stand for?

2

A.

Host Based Security System.

3

Q.

And you said on direct that HBSS had the ability to prevent

4

the user from running an executable file?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

A self-executable file could have been prevented by HBSS?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And you also said that HBSS was in the possession of the

9

Army at the time all of this happened?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

The Army had it?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And the Army could have put on it all the systems -- it was

14

software we had?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

And if the Army had wanted to they could have set it up so

17

that a user couldn't run a self-executable file?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

And the Army didn't do that?

20

A.

Not to my knowledge.

21

Q.

I would like to retrieve Prosecution Exhibit 188, please

22
23

[retrieving the document from the court reporter].
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Permission to publish, Your Honor?

10677

14247

1
2
3
4
5

MJ:

Go ahead.

[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection
screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, this is Prosecution Exhibit 188 and

these are prefetch files, right?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

And what the prefetch files tell us are basically that a

8

program was run?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

And we see in -- I guess the fourth column we see

the date that it was last run?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

Now what we don't know from the prefetch files how long the

14

program ran, correct?

15

[No response from the witness.]

16

Q.

So we don’t know if the program ----

17

MJ:

Well, the witness hasn’t answered.

18

A.

That's not quite right, sir.

19

Q.

Can -- can you tell from the prefetch files if the program

20
21

ran for 30 seconds or it ran for a minute?
A.

I can tell from the prefetch that they've got -- like a --

22

it ran -- how many times it ran.

So in the case of the last one

23

bloop -- Number 20, excuse me, it was only run one time.

10678

And so you

14248

1

have a date it was created -- was that time, and the date it was last

2

run would be the ending time.

3

Q.

Sure.

4

A.

So in that case, yes.

5

Q.

Okay, you can tell how long this one ran?

6

A.

Because it only ran one time.

7

Q.

Now -- when -- Number 20 -- so we see it started at 2010

8

on 3 May and it ran until 02 of May 4 ----

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

---- right?

11

There are no other instances of Wget running

at that time, correct?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And so let's just look at Number One.

14

When it ran on 1

April at 12:21:08, you don't know how long it ran, do you?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

And --so you don't know if while it was running there was

17
18

another instance of it running?
A.

There is -- I mean -- the dates and times of when the files

19

were created -- if you look at the -- the first line again -- if you

20

look at the first created date, the created time is 13:48:34

21

followed by 13 -- the next line is 13:48:40; that's a few seconds

22

apart.

23

each other.

As -- and you continue going down, they're seconds apart from

10679

14249

1

Q.

Sure.

2

A.

It is possible.

3

Q.

And then the next one opened up at 40, and that ran until

4

But it's possible that that ran for five seconds?

48:44, and the third one opened up?

5

A.

It is possible.

6

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Removing Prosecution Exhibit 188 [removing the
I’d like to retrieve

7

document from the projection screen].

8

Prosecution Exhibit 189 [retrieving the document from the court

9

reporter].

10
11
12
13
14
15

MJ:

Permission to publish, ma’am.
Go ahead.

We’ll make this easy; you can publish anything

that's been admitted.
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Thank you, ma'am.
[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection
screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

All right, Agent Shaver, Prosecution Exhibit 189 is

16

basically the help file or instructions on different things you can

17

do with Wget, correct?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

Now, I want to direct your attention down to the last

20

section there; HTTP options?

21

A.

Okay.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

Now if we look under there you would say that it was

possible Wget -- to set Wget up so that if you are accessing or if

10680

14250

1

you were going to a website that required a password and a user name

2

you could set Wget up to provide that password and user name?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And so if on the NCD database a user needed to put in a

5

user name and a password to get access you could have done that on

6

Wget?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

Now, you talked about sort of batch files or the script

9

that was run by PFC Manning on the .22 machine.

You didn't see

10

anything where there was a user name or password included in the

11

scripts, correct?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And why wouldn't there have been a user name or password in

14

the scripts?

15

A.

16

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Okay.

17
18

It's not required.
So -- removing Prosecution Exhibit 189

[removing the document from the projection screen].
Q.

So it wasn't required because once an individual logged on

19

to their SIPR machine they had access to the Net-Centric Diplomacy

20

database?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

They didn't have to put any other information in their

23

computer at any time to get the Net-Centric Diplomacy database?

10681

14251

1

A.

Correct.

2

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: If we could retrieve Prosecution Exhibit 191

3

[retrieving the document from the court reporter].

4

Honor?

5

[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection

6

screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]

7
8

Q.

Publish, Your

Now, Agent Shaver, you testified about a number of batch

files.

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

I'd like to talk about little bit more about what exactly a

11

batch file is.

Now within a batch file there are a series of

12

commands, correct?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

There's multiple lines within the batch file?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

And each one of those lines is a command or an

17

introduction?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

So within -- let's just look at “I” up there -- or let's --

20

let’s actually look at “E” --Echo.

21

number of introductions or commands?

22

A.

Okay.

23

Q.

Is that ----

10682

Within that BAT file there were a

14252

1

A.

There could be.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And what would you expect to see in there, since these were

Well, that's what a batch file is, right?

5

the batch files used to get the cables, you would expect to see that

6

Wget instruction in there, correct?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

And you would expect to see each line would be a different

9

instruction?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

So the first line might be to get -- using MRNs that we're

12

just going to make up -- 09Vienna1.

That would be the first cable

13

from Vienna in 2009 and the next line would be 09Vienna2 --

14

A.

Sure.

15

Q.

-- possible?

16

A.

Yes, sir.

17

Q.

And then when one actually ran the BAT file what would

18

happen is Wget would go and then get 09Vienna1, right?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And then after it got 09Vienna1, it’d go back and get

21
22

09Vienna2 ---A.

Correct.

23

10683

14253

1
2

Q.

---- because that was the next line.

And it would go

through until all of the instructions were done?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And it’s doing them one at a time?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And that's why when you testified on the merits, you talked

7

-- we talked about firewall logs, right?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

DOS firewall logs.

10

And when we looked at those DOS

firewall logs, there are hundreds of thousands of connections?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

Between the .22 machine and the .40 machine and Department
And the reason there were so many connections was because

13

of State.

14

these were coming in one at a time?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

When those batch files run it's not downloading two or

17
18
19
20

three cables at a time?
A.

second command.
Q.

21

Wget.

22

correct?

23

It's doing the first command, completing it, and then the

Now I just want to talk sort of generally big picture about

Wget is a program that's available in the open source,

A.

Correct.

10684

14254

1
2

Q.

And it's not a program that's known for being synonymous

with hackers, correct?

3

A.

It could be.

4

Q.

It could be, but it's not necessarily?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

It's used for purposes by a lot of different people?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And a lot of those people aren't hackers?

9

A.

Yes.

10

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Can I have a moment, Your Honor?

11

MJ:

12

[Pause]

13

Q.

Yes.

Special Agent, I want to talk now about the Tweets.

14

Actually, before we go to the Tweets, I want to talk about the

15

Favicons.

16

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: If I could retrieve Prosecution Exhibit 192

17

[retrieving the exhibit from the court reporter].

18

Prosecution Exhibit 192 -- oh, I'm removing Prosecution Exhibit 191

19

[removing the document from the projection screen and handing it to

20

the court reporter], and publishing 192.

21

[The Assistant Defense Counsel placed the document on the projection

22

screen in full view of all court-martial participants.]

23

Q.

Publishing

Now you talked about finding these Favicons in the

10685

14255

1

allocated space, right?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

And generally speaking the -- the allocated space are the

4

nondeleted things?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

And when we talked yesterday you told me that it's possible

7

to have a Favicon on your computer without ever having visited the

8

site, correct?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

No?

11

A.

No, sir.

12

Q.

Okay.

But even if there was a Favicon present on the

13

computer, you don't know if the person actually visited the site --

14

actually saw it?

15
16
17

A.

That's part of the code actually of HTML.

So I would have

to say, no, sir.
Q.

So it's possible that, you know, there are times when

18

you're reading something in the news and you click on a link and the

19

link opens up in a new tab, right?

20

A.

Yes, sir.

21

Q.

And then you just forget about it -- you forget that it's

22

there, right?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

10686

14256

1

Q.

You close it -- you close your browser, it's gone?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

You never saw that article?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

That article is open on your computer, right?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

And if that article and that website had had a Favicon that

8

would be in your allocated space?

9

A.

It would be.

10

Q.

But you didn't actually see the article?

11

A.

That's correct.

12

Q.

And while there are these Favicons, you don't actually know

13

when -- if it was viewed, you can't say when it was viewed?

14

A.

15

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Removing Prosecution Exhibit 192 [removing the

16
17
18

Correct.

document from the projection screen].
Q.

Okay, let's talk about the Tweets.

Tweets -- again, you

found URLs, correct?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

In the unallocated space?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Now, when you searched the unallocated space you searched

23

for Twitter?

10687

14257

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

You found, I think you said, 11 instances of Twitter in the

3

unallocated space?

4

A.

Twitter and WikiLeaks.

5

Q.

Twitter and WikiLeaks.

6

Okay.

And I want to just talk

about the instances of Twitter, okay?

7

A.

Okay.

8

Q.

You didn't find -- well, actually all you found related to

9

Twitter in the unallocated space were those URLs, correct?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

When you searched the unallocated space both previously --

12

years ago -- and then most recently this week or last week you

13

recovered a number of web pages, right?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

And none of those web pages were Twitter.com, correct?

16

A.

I do not recall them being Twitter, so.

17

Q.

So when you find these instances of Twitter that we talked

18

about today, it's the URL, right?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

But there's not actually evidence that URL was pulled up on

21

the computer?

22

A.

23

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I'd like to retrieve Defense Exhibit Igloo

Correct.

10688

14258

1

Igloo -- India India [retrieving the document from the court

2

reporter].

3

[handing the document to the witness].

I'm handing the witness India India for identification

4

WIT: Yes, sir.

5

Q.

What is that?

6

A.

[Looking at the document] This is a recovered web page from

7

the unallocated space.

This web page -- with my initials next to it.

8

Q.

How do you know that's what it is?

9

A.

Because I was there when it was created.

10

Q.

How did you find or how was this article found?

11

A.

This article was found based off -- first identifying the

12

location of the two Tweets -- the two Tweets that I spoke of earlier,

13

the ones that were shorter.

14

Those were embedded in this web page.

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I'd like to retrieve Prosecution Exhibits 194

15

Charlie and Bravo, please [retrieving the documents from the court

16

reporter.]

17

screen in full view of all court-martial participants].

18
19

Q.

Publish these [placing the documents on the projection

Special Agent Shaver, I've published 194 Bravo and Charlie.

Are these the URLs that you used to find that article?

20

A.

Correct.

21

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Removing 194 Bravo and Charlie and handing them

22

to the court reporter [removing the documents from the projection

23

screen and handing them to the court reporter].

10689

I’m going to

14259

1

retrieve India and India -- Defense Exhibit India India for

2

identification [retrieving the document from the witness].

3

permission to publish, ma’am?

And

4

MJ:

Go ahead.

5

[The Assistant Defense Counsel[CPT TOOMAN] placed the document

6

on the projection screen in full view of all court-martial

7

participants.]

8
9

Q.

Now, Agent Shaver, why did this article come up when you

searched the unallocated space for those URLs?

10

A.

Because they're embedded links.

11

Q.

Where in this article do you recall were those links

12
13

embedded?
A.

I don't remember which one is -- which link went to which

14

one, but approximately from the bottom to the top -- when he starts

15

to run earlier --

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

-- the fourth paragraph up -- there’s a link file on the

18

immediately left -- earlier WikiLeaks versus Twitter.

19

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I’m zooming in.

20

A.

Yeah, basically the fourth paragraph up --

21

Q.

Yeah.

22

A.

-- where it says WikiLeaks Twitter feed.

23

That is one.

another one was in the paragraph starting with all the Tweets came

10690

And

14260

1
2
3

out in a rush.
Q.

Okay.

Now, Agent Shaver, this article was found in the

unallocated space of PFC Manning's Mac computer, correct?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

So that means that at some point this article was pulled up

6

on his computer?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Now you don't know if he actually clicked on the link and

9

followed it, correct?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

Because we don't have any actual Twitter.com web pages?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

Now while we’re here, Agent Shaver, I'd like to have you

14

read -- I’m going to put to the -- actually if you could just read

15

the third paragraph?

16

A.

Starts with word Assange?

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

Yes?

19

Q.

Yes.

20

A.

Assange was traveling to speak at an investigative

No?

21

journalism conference in Norway and told SBS that “U.S. sources told

22

Icelandic State media that the U.S. State Department was aggressively

23

investigating a leak from the U.S. Embassy in Reykjavik”.

10691

14261

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I’m removing Defense Exhibit for identification

1
2

India India and offering it as Defense Exhibit India India [removing

3

the document from the projection screen and handing it to the

4

Military Judge].

5

MJ:

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

MJ:

Defense Exhibit India India is admitted.

8

Q.

I'd like to talk now about the other Tweet -- the third

9

Any objection?
No, ma'am.

Tweet.
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I’m retrieving Prosecution Exhibit 193 [Alpha]

10
11

[retrieving the document from the court reporter, and placing it on

12

the projection screen in full view of all court-martial

13

participants].

14

Q.

Agent Shaver, this Tweet includes a link, correct?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

And you've gone to that link, correct?

17

A.

I have.

18

Q.

And that link offers -- it's an article on Gawker.com?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And it's an explanation of the Tweet -- it elaborates on

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And what that article says is that Facebook deleted a fan -

21

it?

10692

14262

1

- an unofficial WikiLeaks page, correct?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

And they did that because it's their policy that they don't

4

want to confuse users of Facebook, right?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And if there's an unofficial page that can be confused with
And then

7

the official page, they'll take down the unofficial page.

8

what they do is they migrate the user from the unofficial page over

9

to the official page?

10

A.

11

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Removing Prosecution Exhibit 193 Alpha

12

Yes, sir.

[removing the document from the projection screen].

13

Q.

Let's talk about the SIGACT, okay?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

Now the SIGACT you found reference to in the value mounting

16

data, correct?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

And how you found it was there was a SIGACT of interest,

19

right?

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

You were asked to find something ---

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

-- referencing or related to a particular SIGACT?

10693

14263

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

And when you -- you looked at the SIGACT -- the actual

3

SIGACT?

4

A.

Actually no.

5

Q.

You were given --

6

A.

Some basic information.

7

Q.

-- some basic information from the government?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

One of the pieces of information you were given was the

10
11
12
13
14

CIDNE sort of the identifying number of the SIGACT?
A.

No.

I was basically told it was a -- it was a SIGACT

involving press -- printing and arrest of people.
Q.

And so you did some key word searches and then you found

part of these SIGACT --

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

-- in the unallocated clusters, right?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

And then once you had a piece of that SIGACT up, that

19

SIGACT has some sort of identifying number on it?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And then you took that identifying number, right, and then

22

you searched PFC Manning's computer for other instances of that

23

identifying number?

10694

14264

1

A.

I did.

2

Q.

And one of the things you found was a file on a CD that had

3

been mounted on PFC Manning's computer?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

So basically at some point PFC Manning put a CD in his

6

computer, and on that CD was a file a .txt file, right?

7

A.

I don't know the extension.

8

Q.

Okay, there was a file, and the name of that file was the

9

same as the ID number for this SIGACT?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

You don't know if that file was actually the SIGACT?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

But it's a pretty random number to have been anything else?

14

A.

I would agree with you, yes.

15

Q.

Now you found a bunch of SIGACTs in the course of your

16

investigation over all the different pieces of medium associated with

17

PFC Manning, correct?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

PFC Manning's charged with taking hundreds of thousands of

20

SIGACTs and giving them to WikiLeaks and you found all of those?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And you found those on an SD card?

23

A.

Correct.

10695

14265

1

Q.

Could you tell the Court how those were named individually?

2

A.

I'm not sure how to answer that question, sir.

They were -

3

- I found them is -- I found them in the unallocated space of the SD

4

card.

5

DZ2, the encrypted file, they were located within two CSV files.

6

each entry within those CSV files was SIGACTs -- I’m -- sorry I don't

7

know how to answer that question.

8
9

So they had no file names.

Q.

The -- within the yada.tar -- that

You can't answer that question because they weren't

individually saved, right?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

They were in the CSV file, right, and the CSV file is

It was -- in mass.

12

associated with Excel?

13

know how to a CSV file, right?

That's probably the easiest way any of us

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

Those SIGACTs you found weren't individually downloaded,

16

correct?

17

A.

Don't know.

18

Q.

When you found them they were all grouped together,

19

So

correct?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And they were grouped together in these CSV files, right?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And those CSV files were in yada?

10696

14266

1

A.

Yada.tar.dz2.nc.

2

Q.

So this SIGACT that we're talking about now wasn't

3

downloaded with all of those or it wasn't kept with all those?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

Those were all kept on an SD card?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

This one was kept on his personal Macintosh?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

The dates on the SD cards is 2009 -- prior.

11

Sir?

But the dates were wrong.

That one

happened in 2010.

12

Q.

Well, so this --

13

A.

So this -- it wouldn’t been part of it.

14

Q.

-- so this was one that was completely separate from those

15

ones on the SD card?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Those were 2009. This one’s dated 2010?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And when you looked at the volume mounting data, and you

20

saw that CIDNE ID number, you didn't see other volume mounting data

21

with CIDNE ID numbers, did you?

22

A.

Did not.

23

Q.

So there were no other files that had been put on a CD that

10697

14267

1

had the same, I guess, naming convention as the CIDNE ID number?

2

A.

I did not see any.

3

Q.

So it would seem that this particular SIGACT was in some

4

way unique?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

It was downloaded and saved individually?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Separate and apart from all of the others?

9

A.

It appears as though, yes.

10

Q.

I want to talk to you about some of those web pages you

11

mentioned that you found when you searched the unallocated space of

12

PFC Manning's Mac.

13

A.

Okay.

14

Q.

You found a number of basically fragments of web pages,

15

correct?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

And what you all did when you did your forensic report, you

18

and Mr. Johnson, you created attachments, right?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And one group of attachments, Attachment S, was a number of

21

articles that implicated WikiLeaks in some way?

22

A.

The key word WikiLeaks was present in them.

23

Q.

Sure.

So anything you found that sort of invoked

10698

14268

1

WikiLeaks, any web page fragment would have gone into Attachment S,

2

correct?

3

A.

Correct.

4

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Okay.

I'd like to retrieve Defense Exhibit

5

Kilo Kilo for identification [retrieving the document from the court

6

reporter].

7

document to the witness].

I’m going to hand this to the witness[handing the

8

Q.

Now, Agent Shaver, what is that?

9

A.

[Looking at the document] It's a two-page -- it looks like

10
11
12

a recovered web page.
Q.

This that a -- is this an example of a web page fragment

that you would have found?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Is this one that you all did find?

15

A.

It is marked as such.

I don't recall this one

16

specifically, but it is marked in accordance the way we mark these

17

files.

18
19
20
21
22
23

Q.

What markings in particular suggest to you that this was

one that you all found?
A.

It has our case numbers on it.

classification marking, Attachment S.
Q.

Okay.

It has the FOIA LES

The font's the same.

Now, Agent shaver, I'd like you to read -- on Page

One of that exhibit for identification there's basically a paragraph

10699

14269

1

of text.

2

a graphic video.”

3

A.

Could you read that, please?

Got it.

It starts “by releasing such

[Reading from the document] By releasing such a

4

graphic video, which a media organization has tried in vein to get

5

through traditional channels, WikiLeaks has inserted itself in the

6

national discussion about the role of journalism in the digital age.

7

Where judges ----

8

Q.

You can stop there.

9

A.

Okay.

10

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I'm going to retrieve Defense Exhibit Kilo Kilo

11

for identification [retrieving the document from the witness] and

12

offer it as Defense Exhibit Kilo Kilo [handing the document to the

13

Military Judge].

14

MJ:

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

16

MJ:

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

Any objection?
It’s actually already been admitted.

No, ma’am.

It has?
Well, it’s -- it’s part of a larger exhibit

that’s already been admitted.

19

MJ:

20

exhibit?

All right.

I assume you want it separate from that larger

21

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Yes, ma'am, to try and zero you in on it.

22

MJ:

Defense Exhibit Kilo Kilo’s admitted.

23

Q.

Now, Agent Shaver, that again was something that was found

10700

14270

1

on the unallocated space of PFC Manning's Mac?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

Which means at some point it was up on the screen?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Again, you can't say for sure whether or not he saw it,

6

right?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

But it was up on the screen?

9

A.

Yes.

10

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I'd like to retrieve Defense Exhibit Lima Lima

11

for identification [retrieving the document from the court reporter].

12

Permission to publish, ma'am?

13

MJ:

14

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Oh, I’m not supposed to do that.

15

Go ahead.
I’m going to

hand it to the witness [handing the document to the witness].

16

Q.

Agent Shaver, what is this?

17

A.

[Looking at the document] Again, it appears to be Attach --

18

another file from Attachment S from the forensic report.

19

Q.

And how do you know that?

20

A.

The markings are on it.

21

Q.

Now, Agent Shaver, I'd like to direct your attention to the

22

first page -- actually Page Two.

And there’s -- the first full

23

paragraph that starts with the Sunshine Press.

10701

Would you read that

14271

1

please?

2

A.

The full paragraph?

3

Q.

Please.

4

A.

[Reading from the document] The Sunshine Press (WikiLeaks)

5

is a nonprofit organization funded by human rights campaigners,

6

investigative journalists, technologists, and the general public.

7

Through your support we have exposed significant injustice around the

8

world successfully fighting off over 100 legal attacks in the

9

process.

Although our work produces reforms daily and it is the

10

recipient of numerous prestigious awards including the 2008 Index of

11

Censorship Economist of Freedom of Expression Award as well as the

12

2009 NSD International New Media Award, these accolades do not pay

13

the bills.

14

Q.

You can stop there, Agent Shaver.

Thank you.

15

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Retrieve this for the witness and offer Defense

16

Exhibit Lima Lima as Defense Exhibit Lima Lima [retrieving the

17

document from the witness].

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

19

MJ:

No objection.

It’s already admitted.

How many of these articles are we

20

going to go through?

21

showing them all and then have him read what you want to read out of

22

them?

23

I’m just thinking of a faster process to

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Yes, ma’am, there are four more.

10702

14272

1

MJ:

2

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Yes, ma'am.

3

MJ:

4

And they’re all admitted, right?

I mean, does the government want the defense to go through

a foundation for each of these exhibits since it’s --

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

6

MJ:

Absolutely not, Your Honor.

-- since it’s already been admitted?

7

Then I'm going to admit them all, and then you can have the witness

8

read whatever -- their all from S -- Attachment S, right?

9
10

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Yes, ma'am.
MJ:

Okay.

All right, so I have for admission then

11

Appellate[sic] Exhibit Lima Lima, Appellate Exhibit -- or I’m sorry,

12

Defense Exhibit -- Defense Exhibit Mike Mike, Defense Exhibit

13

November, Defense Exhibit Oscar Oscar, and Defense Exhibit Papa Papa,

14

and they're all admitted.

15

documents to the Assistant Defense Counsel[CPT TOOMAN].

16

Captain Tooman, here you go [handing the

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Thank you, ma'am. I’m going to give Lima Lima

17

back to the court reporter [handing the exhibit to the court

18

reporter].

19

Oscar, and Papa Papa to the witness [handing the document to the

20

witness].

21
22
23

Q.

I’m going to hand Mike Mike, November November, Oscar

Agent Shaver, let's look at Defense Exhibit Mike Mike.

I'd like you to look at Page Two.
A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

10703

And

14273

1
2

Q.

And the third -- well, I guess the fourth paragraph down

starting the most recent opening?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

Could you read that and then the following paragraph,

5

please?

6

A.

[Reading from the document] The most recent openings in the

7

haze of immediate and political hypocrisy began with a near

8

simultaneous revelations of civilian deaths at the hands of U.S.

9

forces in the Iraq and Afghanistan.

The now ubiquitous WikiLeaks

10

video footage of Soldiers firing on orders of photographer Namir

11

Noor-Eldeen, his colleague, Saeed Chmagh, and other civilians in

12

Baghdad in July 2007 was equal and graphic power by the acquisitions

13

that in February of 2010 U.S. Special Forces personnel had not only

14

killed two pregnant women along with a teenage girl and two local

15

officials in Kandahar, Afghanistan, but carved the bullets out of

16

bodies to remove evidence of their responsibilities for their deaths.

17
18

Q.

Stop there.

Thank you, Agent Shaver.

And move on to

Defense Exhibit November November?

19

A.

Okay.

20

Q.

And if you could, please, read the paragraph starting the

21
22
23

website has become increasing hard to ignore.
A.

[Reading from the document] The website has become

increasingly hard to ignore over the years.

10704

The impact of some of

14274

1

its scopes according to some media watchers far exceeds that of even

2

established news organizations.

3
4

Q.

Thank you.

To Oscar Oscar, please -- Defense Exhibit Oscar

Oscar.

5

A.

[Looking at the document] Okay.

6

Q.

And if you could read there at the top of Page One; in an

7
8
9

open platform?
A.

[Reading from the document] An open platform for the

anonymous publishing of compromising documents according to Time

10

Magazine.

11

the Freedom of Information Act.

12

Q.

WikiLeaks could become as important a journalistic tool as

You can stop there.

Thank you.

And finally Defense

If you could look at Page Four.

13

Exhibit Papa Papa.

14

bottom you see a heading Collateral Murder in Iraq?

Down towards the

15

A.

[Looking at the document] Yes.

16

Q.

The United States military video -- if you could read the

17
18

first two sentences there, please?
A.

[Reading from the document] The United States military

19

video was released week showing the indiscriminate targeting and

20

killing of civilians in Baghdad.

21

WikiLeaks obtained the video and made it available on the Internet?

22
23

The nonprofit news organization

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Thank you, Agent Shaver.

I'll retrieve those

exhibits from the witness [retrieving the documents from the witness

10705

14275

1

and returning them to the court reporter].

2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

You're almost finished and possible for the whole

6

No further questions.

Redirect.

court-martial.

You need some more water, Special Agent Shaver?

7

[Water was provided to the witness.]

8

MJ:

9
10

Thanks, Agent Shaver.

Okay, Major Fein, is this going to be a long or short

redirect?

I'm looking at whether we need a recess?

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Actually a recess -- short, ma'am, but I was

11

going to look at these real quick.

12

idea at this time.
All right.

So maybe a recess would be a good

13

MJ:

Why don't we do that.

Let's take a quick ten-

14

minute recess.

15

for you to come see me just so we can talk about the way ahead.

During the recess if you could you, counsel, I’d like

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

Yes, ma’am.

The Court is in recess until 1900 or 7 o’clock.

18

[The court-martial recessed at 1848, 18 July 2013.]

19

[The court-martial was called to order at 1859, 18 July 2013.]

20

MJ:

The Court is called to order.

Let the record reflect all

21

parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in

22

court.

The witness on the witness stand.

10706

Major Fein?

14276

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

1
2
3

Questions by the Trial Counsel:
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, in reference to your testimony just

4

now on cross-examination on Wget, a few questions.

You testified

5

about if you knew the web address -- the URL for a specific cable you

6

could type that into a web browser?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

What do you -- what did you mean by that?

9

A.

If you go to the address bar, open a web browser, go to the

10

address bar and type that in, be as the actual path to the file.

11

it should -- would appear in your web browser.

12
13

Q.

And what program was installed on the .22 and .40 computers

that allowed its users to view web pages?

14

A.

Internet Explorer and Firefox.

15

Q.

And what program installed on .22 and .40 allowed

16

So

individuals to navigate to web pages to view web pages?

17

A.

Internet Explorer and Firefox.

18

Q.

What about to download pages -- web pages -- how -- what

19

program was installed on .22 and .40 to allow users to download web

20

pages if they so chose?

21

A.

Internet Explorer and Firefox.

22

Q.

Does having -- you testified about that it was possible to

23

having -- of having the NCD web page -- the web page for the database

10707

14277

1

open in one window and running Wget in the other.

2

that?

Do you remember

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

How does one relate to the other, if at all?

5

A.

Well, besides the obvious that they're both running on the

6

same computer and they’re both connecting to the State Department,

7

but otherwise, no.

8
9

Q.

Does having the NCD database web page up in a browser

affect running Wget get at all?

10

A.

No.

11

Q.

Are they operating independently of each other?

12

A.

Yes, they're independent.

13

Q.

And is the program Wget the same as a web browser?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

And -- actually now I just direct your attention or focus

16

your testimony on the SIGACT and some of the information you

17

testified about in cross-examination.

18

find any other information about that SIGACT on his personal Mac,

19

correct?

You testified that you didn't

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

Did you find any other information referencing that SIGACT

22
23

on any other evidence you examined?
A.

I did.

10708

14278

1
2

Q.

And where did you find another copy of that SIGACT in its

entirety?

3

A.

Within the bradley.manning profile on the T-drive.

4

Q.

And did you compare the two?

5

A.

I did.

6

Q.

And what -- how did they compare?

7

A.

The one on T-drive is the complete.

8

Q.

And was there one on the ----

9

MJ:

Is what?

10

WIT: Is complete.

11

Q.

And why is the other one not complete?

12

A.

It was unallocated -- it was partially deleted.

13

Q.

And for the one that was complete, was it an individual

14

file or part of a larger Excel spreadsheet?

15

A.

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

20

Thank you.

No further questions, Your Honor.

Go ahead [speaking to the defense].
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

18
19

It was an individual file.

Questions by the Assistant Defense Counsel[CPT TOOMAN]:
Q.

Special Agent Shaver, when a user employs Wget to download

21

a cable then it is on their computer in whatever place they’ve setup

22

for it to be saved, right?

23

[No response from the witness.]

10709

14279

1

Q.

And then the user can then view it, correct?

2

A.

I’m sorry.

3

Q.

So let's -- let’s use our 09 -- let’s use our 09Vienna1

4

cable.

5

A.

Okay.

6

Q.

Hypothetical cable.

7

So ----

You download that with Wget.

That's

now on your computer, correct?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

You can view that cable, correct?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And if you double click on that cable how does it open up?

12

A.

It would open with your default browser.

13

Q.

So Internet Explorer or Firefox?

14

A.

Correct.

15

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Thanks, Agent Shaver.

16

[Pause]

17

MJ:

I don't think I have any questions.

18

permanent excusal?

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

So temporary or

Unfortunately for him, ma’am, temporary.

20

[The witness was temporarily excused, reminded of his previous oath,

21

and withdrew from the courtroom.]

22
23

MJ:

I met with counsel for an R.C.M. 802 conference about ten

minutes ago to discuss the way forward.

10710

Understanding the hour, PFC

14280

1

Manning needs to eat.

We have additional rebuttal and surrebuttal

2

testimony to go forward with.

3

morning at 0930.

So we're going to resume tomorrow

Is there anything else we need to address?

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: No, Your Honor.

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

6

MJ:

7
8

All right.

No, ma'am.
Court is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.

[The court-martial recessed at 1905, 18 July 2013.]
[END OF PAGE]

10711

14281

1
2
3
4

[The court-martial was called to order at 0931, 19 July 2013.]
MJ:

Court is called to order.

Major Fein, please account for

the parties.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma’am.

Your Honor, all parties when the

5

Court last recessed are again present.

6

were 16 members of the media at the media operations center, one

7

stenographer.

8

in the courtroom.

9

but is available.

10

MJ:

11

to the record?

12

As of 0920 this morning there

There’s no media in the courtroom, and 17 spectators
The overflow trailer is not currently being used

All right.

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Have there been any additional exhibits added

Yes, ma'am.

What's been marked Appellate Exhibit

13

611 is the defense’s Request for Special Finding Article 51 Delta of

14

the Uniform Code of Military Justice and R.C.M. 918 Bravo.

15
16

MJ:

Okay.

And, Defense, as I read that request, that's

basically for special findings for everything.

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

18

MJ:

Okay.

That is correct, Your Honor.

All right, before we continue, Government, I notice

19

Captain von Elten is not here.

Going back to the 641 arguments we

20

had yesterday, I did have a question on the government's position

21

with respect to the defense assertion that the -- not the entire

22

database was stolen or knowingly converted; only part of it was.

23

what's the government's position with respect to the charge --

10712

And

14282

1
2
3
4
5
6

charges?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma'am, is -- is the Court asking for all of the

641 offenses or any specific databases?
MJ:

Well, I believe defense -- I know at least with the CIDNE-

I, CIDNE-A -- everything except SOUTHCOM, I believe is what you said.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Yes, Your Honor.

As far as -- the SOUTHCOM

7

database was the only one that didn't change at any point in time.

8

The CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A database had other tables in it.

9

those tables was the SIGACTs table.

The ----

10

MJ:

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: NCD; it changed over time as far as the --

12

All right.

One of

What about NCD?

everyday additional things coming it, but it only had cables.

13

MJ:

Okay, so really we're talking about CIDNE-A and CIDNE-I.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Correct, Your Honor.

15

MJ:

16

databases ----

Okay, so that's what I'm looking at.

17

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

MJ:

As you’ve charged the

Yes, ma’am.

---- with such-and-such records.

And the evidence hasn’t -

19

- the evidence, as the defense suggested, came out that's only part

20

of the CIDNE-A and CIDNE-I databases.

21
22
23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, first, ma'am, the evidence actually doesn't

have that it's a separate table within it.
MJ:

Excuse me?

10713

It said that the ----

14283

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma’am, the actual evidence that’s presented

2

before the Court isn't that there’s a database with multiple tables,

3

and those multiple tables -- there’s some tables that include

4

counter-IED or HUMINT reports.

5

access CIDNE, the web page, and you go on there, there’s different

6

types of reports to pull -- just a clarify of what the evidence that

7

has presented by both parties.

8

government's position for CIDNE-A and CIDNE-I, whether -- if it was a

9

lesser amount -- I guess I ----

10

MJ:

The testimony has been that when you

As far as the Court's question on

What I'm looking at is the government's position.

Defense,

11

as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, has asserted, okay,

12

CIDNE-I is a database.

13

and there's things besides the SIGACTs there.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

The SIGACTs are a subset of that database,

That's correct, Your Honor.

And that is the

15

testimony that has been elicited by multiple witnesses during the

16

government's case in chief.

17

MJ:

And does the government dispute that?

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

The government disputes, Your Honor, that -- that

19

the government's evidence that's been presented has been that the

20

portion of the CIDNE database -- the portion of CIDNE that was pulled

21

-- the CIDNE database was the SIGACTs.

22

reports that existed on CIDNE; whether they're part of the same

23

database or not, there hasn't been evidence to say that.

10714

There's other types of

It's a very

14284

1

technical difference there, but there hasn't been -- there has been

2

evidence, and the government absolutely concedes this, that there's

3

other information that -- that existed through CIDNE.

4

the counter-IED, the HUMINT reporting has been.

5

part of the same database or not, there has no -- there’s been not

6

been any testimony to that.

7

database containing the SIGACTs is what was compromised on a certain

8

date and time, and that’s in Mr. Hoeffel’s Stipulation of Fact [sic].

9

The exact date and time -- the snapshot in time, which is what I

10

thought the court's original question was is that the snapshot in

11

time he took all the SIGACTs.

12

MJ:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

MJ:

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

16

MJ:

17

Okay, let -- okay.

That's what

Now whether it is

But there has been testimony that the

CIDNE-I ----

Yes, ma'am.

---- is that's a database?
Yes, ma'am.

What is contained in CIDNE-I?

Is it just SIGACTs or is it

SIGACTs and something else?

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

19

MJ:

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Yes.
Ma'am, as an Officer of the Court, I will

21

represent that it -- it's multiple tables other than SIGACTs.

22

would expect the government counsel to represent the same.

23

MJ:

Is that ----

10715

I

14285

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

2

MJ:

3

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

It’s easily ----

---- is that based on the evidence that's been presented?
Yes, Your Honor.

It's easily identifiable

Witnesses -- I asked several

4

and it is based upon the evidence.

5

witnesses during the government's case in chief what else was

6

contained in CIDNE-I?

7

reports.

8

social economic reports.

9

during the government's case in chief to show that he had a full

You had HUMINT reports.

You had PSYOP reports.

You had Intel

You had terrain reports.

You had

All these reports -- I brought that out

10

range of all this stuff, and HUMINT reports were much more sensitive

11

and if he wanted to harm the United States, he could have pulled

12

those and he didn't.

13

testimony of the witnesses.

14

of the Court, Major Fein would immediately concede that, yes, to your

15

question -- just so the court knows, yes, there are multiple tables.

16

SIGACTs is just one of the many tables in the CIDNE-I and CIDNE A

17

database.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

18

And that was stuff that was pulled through the
And, again, I would think as an Officer

Ma'am, the -- I, the United States is not

19

contesting whether witnesses testified there's other information.

20

Mr. Coombs is purposefully using the term tables.

21

that.

22

been testimony there's other information there.

23

now -- I'm looking up at what the exact testimony was, Your Honor.

No one has done

And that's why I’m -- just explained to the court there has

10716

As I'm looking right

14286

1

There is other information within CIDNE.

2

it's technically in there, the government does not know that.

3

when a user does go to CIDNE, there's other options they can chose

4

from the web page, and that is the testimony we’ve heard.

5

could be to pull SIGACTs.

6

and HUMINT reporting.

7

not, there is no evidence of that.

8

they make a selection.

9
10

MJ:

How it's formatted, how
But

The option

The options could be to pull a counter-IED

Whether it's a table in the same database or
It is when a user goes to CIDNE

So it’s a ----

Is there more than CIDNE in the database or not?

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma'am, there is more than -- there is more than

11

SIGACTs within the CIDNE database, yes.

12

not, the government doesn't know.

13

that. I know it's a very fine technical argument, but I'm trying to

14

relate exactly what has been presented.

15

MJ:

Okay.

Now, whether it is tables or

And there has been no evidence to

Well, what I want to know is the government's

16

position -- these charges under 641 all allege stole a database

17

consisting of such-and-such records.

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

19

MJ:

Yes, ma'am.

Now if there is -- are more things in the database than

20

those -- than the SIGACTs, what's the government's position with

21

respect to those specifications?

22
23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am, that those would be lesser included.

It is less than the total of what is available, which is why the

10717

14287

1

specification is reading the database containing a certain number of

2

records.

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5
6

And that's not a precise number either.
So it’s part of the database.
It is part of the database, Your Honor, and

that’s evident -- the evidence ---MJ:

So is the government -- I mean, should the Court in 917

7

findings make changes to the specifications to say part of the

8

database?

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, ma'am, the United States would argue that

10

it is within the trier-of-facts' purview to come back with a -- with

11

a finding in exception or substitutions.

12

MJ:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

MJ:

15
16

I've got 917 motions before me.
Yes, ma’am.

Have you presented evidence that the entire database has

been stolen?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

For the CIDNE database, Your Honor, the United

17

States has not -- if that is what -- if that information is

18

considered within the database -- although there is -- again, there’s

19

no evidence that said that it’s in the database -- the CIDNE

20

database.

21
22
23

MJ:

There's no evidence of what?

confused.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma’am.

10718

That's where I'm getting

14288

1

MJ:

I'll go through the record, and I believe that what the

2

defense is saying from my recollection is correct, that the witnesses

3

said there's more than the SIGACTs in the database.

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

MJ:

Well, ma'am -----

Or are you saying that there are fields in the database you

6

can pull out of the fields -- the SIGACTS -- and the same fields are

7

in the database and you can pull them in some other form?

8
9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma'am, honestly what I'm trying to do is not

answer any questions with evidence that hasn’t been presented.

That

10

would be my answer; that a user could go to CIDNE -- I've done it

11

myself, and gone onto CIDNE and made selections from there.

12

no evidence before the Court whether the CIDNE database itself

13

organically has that information stored within it or not -- the other

14

information. All the users have testified that they could pull

15

certain types of information including SIGACTS and other information.

16

That's what's been before the Court, which is why ----

17
18

MJ:

But if there's other information in the database that

wasn't stolen or purloined or knowingly converted ----

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

20

MJ:

21
22
23

There's

Yes, ma’am.

---- and I've got a 917 motion, how do I -- I mean, what's

government's position?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

The entire database then hasn't been stolen?

Ma'am, then -- then -- then if that is -- which

it appears to be the defense's argument, and if that's their argument

10719

14289

1

for 917 purposes, it would be then the government has presented

2

evidence to a lesser excluded, which is something less than the

3

entire database.
MJ:

4

So is the government then conceding that there's something

5

more than SIGACTS in the CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A databases, based on the

6

evidence?

7

understand that.

8

it, that's fine.

And if you want to -- I threw that question at you, I
If you want to wait until the next recess to answer

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

And then we'll review the evidence and get back

10

to the court on whether the actual CIDNE database itself had more or

11

not, based off the evidence presented by both sides.

12

MJ:

13

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

14

MJ:

15

that.

Okay, that's fine.
Yes, ma’am.

Again, I threw this at you.

It’s a surprise.

I understand

But I would like an answer to the question.

16

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

17

MJ:

18

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Right; the CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A database, which

19

-- yes, multiple witnesses said other information was in the CIDNE-I

20

and CIDNE-A databases.

21
22
23

MJ:

And it's only for CIDNE, correct, ma'am?

I believe that's all you’ve alleged, right?

Okay.

It would be helpful to me to identify which

witnesses said that.
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma’am.

10720

14290

1
2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Yeah, any unit witness I covered it with,
ma'am, but I can go through the record.

3

MJ:

4

proceed?

5

Okay.

Is there anything else we need to address before we

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Yes, ma'am.

In the 802 session the defense

6

renewed its objection to the next witness' testimony, and I'd like to

7

put it on the record.

8

MJ:

Go ahead.

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Under R.C.M. 905(f), the defense requests

10

that you reconsider your determination that Ms. Showman's statements

11

are proper rebuttal.

12

First, the government has offered Ms. Showman as rebuttal

13

to Ms. McNamara's testimony.

14

fact that PFC Manning exhibited concern and care for human life.

15

was a humanist.

16

Showman is going to testify to statements that she alleges my client

17

made only to her; no one else.

18

or not PFC Manning is a humanist.

19

PFC Manning has care for human life.

20

believe it's proper rebuttal.

21

Now Ms. McNamara testified about the

So that was the testimony that we received.

He

Ms.

Those statements do not rebut whether
They do not rebut whether or not
So for that instance we don't

Secondly, the government chose not to elicit this testimony

22

in its case in chief.

23

Ms. Showman was called.

And they certainly could have done that when
So under the United States v. Murphy, 33 MJ,

10721

14291

1

323, we’d request that the Court determine this is evidence that

2

should have been offered in the government's case in chief, and

3

because they didn't do that this Court should exclude it.
Additionally, just looking at the statements; we had made a

4
5

previous filing under 404(b) indicating that these statements were

6

not proper 404(b) in that they were not -- the reliability of the

7

statement -- the fact that the statement was actually made could not

8

be determined based upon the source of who this was coming from; Ms.

9

Showman, and the fact that the statements, at least any documentary

10

form of the statements, did not get reduced to writing until after my

11

client's arrest.

12

the fact that these statements were made up by Ms. Showman in order

13

to make my client look bad.

And the defense's position is that is evidence of

So for those reasons we request that the Court under R.C.M.

14
15

905(f) reconsider both the rebuttal and the 404(b) ruling, and

16

determine that Ms. Showman is not relevant.

17

MJ:

All right.

Thank you.

Government?

18

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma'am.

Before Ms. McNamara testified,

19

the government did object to that testimony.

And the defense

20

specifically stated they were offering it for motive and plan of the

21

accused.

22

time period is the same time period in which the statement was made

23

to Ms. Showman.

And we did object, too, based on the time period.

And that

So the statement does directly -- the statements of

10722

14292

1

Ms. Showman will directly rebut what Ms. McNamara said.
Now the government chose not to elicit this testimony

2
3

during its case in chief partially due to -- well, totally due to, in

4

fact, Appellate Exhibit 470, which was the court's ruling that if we

5

-- that motive evidence was relevant to the limited portion of

6

knowledge for the Article 194 charge, but if the government opened

7

the door with Ms. Showman, then all of the accused’s state of mind

8

would be able to come in as evidence.

9

elicit that in the case in chief.

So the government chose not to

But after the defense elicited

10

testimony directly contrary to what Ms. Showman will testify what the

11

accused motive or what his implied motive was, the government is

12

choosing now to call her back in rebuttal now.

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Ma'am, the government keeps using the word

14

“motive”.

15

We used state of mind 803(3) -- then existing state of mind.

16

Court clarified that you are eliciting then existing state of mind

17

from your client?

18

was a humanist, that he cared about human life, that he was studying

19

and reading in order to better prepare so he could provide better

20

information to his commanders so hopefully he could save lives, and

21

he was concerned about the lives of Soldiers, Marines, civilian

22

contractors, and local nationals.

23

did not testify to any motive.

We never used the word motive at all with Ms. McNamara.

Yes.

And the

And everything she testified to was that he

And so in that regard Ms. McNamara

I mean, the government’s using that

10723

14293

1

word now to say now we should be able to bring motive in, but we

2

never offered Ms. McNamara as motive evidence.

3

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: We can -- I mean, we can review the record,
But the government’s -- been raised it was for planning

4

ma’am.

5

motive.

6

I mean, we could call Ms. Showman’s testimony state of mind as well.

7

It would go to rebut the accused’s state of mind at the exact time

8

Ms. McNamara testified to his state of mind.

9

MJ:

And the state of mind of the accused or the motive, well --

All right, well, the state of mind is relevant to the

10

motive basically.

11

sandbagging.

12

adhere to its original ruling on 404(b).

13

witnesses is a weight question that goes to the fact finder.

14

ahead and call her.

15
16
17

The court finds it is proper rebuttal.

It's not

It's -- under Murphy, the Court, also, is going to
The reliability of the
Go

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: The United States recalls Special -- or Ms.
Jihrleah Showman.
[END OF PAGE]

18

10724

14294

1

JIHRLEAH SHOWMAN, civilian, was recalled as a witness for the

2

prosecution, was reminded of her previous oath, and testified as

3

follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

4
5
6
7

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

Now, Ms. Showman, when you last testified, when did you say

you arrived at Fort Drum?

8

A.

I arrived approximately March of 2009.

9

Q.

And what was your relationship with the accused when you

10

were in garrison before you deployed?

11

A.

I was the -- I was his team leader.

12

Q.

And when was that approximately?

13

A.

I became the 35 Foxtrot team leader as well as Manning's at

14
15
16

around the first part of April 2009.
Q.

And in this capacity did you interact with PFC Manning

daily?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And did you discuss personal topics?

19

A.

There were personal topics discussed, yes.

20

Q.

You drove him different places?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

So in that position were you also responsible for

23

counseling PFC Manning?

10725

14295

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And just -- in general, why did you counsel him?

3

A.

Mainly just to keep him informed and see where he was
Any -- any improvements that

4

personally as well as professionally.

5

needed to be made or any good things that needed to be documented.

6

Q.

And how often did you counsel him?

7

A.

Once a month, unless event oriented counselings need to be

8

-- needed to be conducted.

9

Q.

And what are event oriented counselings?

10

A.

If there was a specific event that would indicate possible

11

corrective action or an incident that would need documentation, it's

12

kind of a sit-down with him to discuss the -- the things that needed

13

to be improved upon, what actually happened, and where we go from

14

there.

15
16

Q.

And during these counselings, did you ever ask PFC Manning

his motivation for joining the military?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Do you remember when that was?

19

A.

That was approximately August timeframe.

20

Q.

How do you remember that date?

21

A.

It was after the JRTC rotation that the shop went --

22

attended.

23

10726

14296

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

Q.

And where was it -- when was it in regard to your

deployment?
A.

It was before deployment.

We deployed in October of that

year, so it was a couple months before.
Q.

And do you remember what the accused's response was when

you asked him that question?
A.

He indicated that he joined the military mainly for

training and educational benefits.

9

Q.

And did you prompt him to elaborate on that?

10

A.

Yes I did.

11

Q.

And what did do you?

12

A.

I asked him -- due to the fact that it was kind of an

13

answer that every Soldier gives, I wanted something a little bit more

14

in-depth.

15

what the flag meant to him.

And so I tapped the flag on my shoulder and I asked him

16

Q.

And what was his response?

17

A.

He said the flag meant nothing to him.

And he did not

18

consider himself part of -- did not consider himself to have

19

allegiance to this country or any people.

20

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Thank you.

21

[END OF PAGE]

22
23

10727

14297

CROSS-EXAMINATION

1
2
3
4

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

I want to start off by asking you a few questions about

what you just testified to, okay, Ms. Showman?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

No one was at this conversation besides you and PFC

7

Manning, is that correct?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

And this was a verbal counseling session between you and

10

PFC Manning?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

When you asked him -- you testified on direct, you asked

13

him why you joined the Army?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And, in fact, he told you that he joined the Army because

16

he needed money for college?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

He also told you he joined the Army so that he could learn

19

more about computers?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And during that conversation you apparently interpreted his

22
23

body language as not really caring about the counseling session?
A.

He -- he had his typical stance; just kind of putting up

10728

14298

1
2

with the conversation.
Q.

My question to you was, during that conversation, you

3

interpreted his body language as not really caring about the

4

counseling?

5

A.

I can't confirm that or deny that.

6

Q.

So you have no opinion as to how you interpreted his body

7
8
9
10

language?
A.

It appeared as though -- he didn't seem distraught by the

counseling session or the fact that he was bothered by it.
Q.

Listen to my question.

Could you see from his body

11

language whether or not, in your opinion, he was not caring about the

12

counseling session?

13

A.

I did not see that actually -- not at that point.

14

Q.

Based upon his body language, you were not happy?

15

A.

I was not -- I was not unhappy at that time.

16

Q.

Well, that's why you tapped your shoulder, correct, the

17

flag ----

18

A.

No ----

19

Q.

---- the flag, what does that mean?

20

A.

---- that's incorrect, sir.

21

Q.

You didn't tap your shoulder because you were upset?

22

A.

No, I did not tap my shoulder because I was upset.

23

10729

14299

Q.

1
2

And when you tapped your -- your shoulder on the flag, you

asked, what does that mean to you?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And you did this because you were upset?

5

A.

No.

6

Q.

And you -- he told you at that point that you can't have

7

blind allegiance to a flag?

8

A.

Not at that point, no.

9

Q.

He told you you can't have blind -- blind allegiance to a

11

A.

I don't remember him saying that.

12

Q.

He told you that you cannot be an automaton?

13

A.

I do not recall that phrase at all, sir.

14

Q.

You don't recall that?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

And he then told you that you had to have duty to all

10

17

flag?

people regardless of their country?

18

A.

I do not recall that.

19

Q.

You don't recall that?

20

A.

No, sir.

21

Q.

You got very upset at the time that he made these

22

statements?

23

10730

14300

A.

The statements that I indicated that he made, it did bother

3

Q.

Bothered you -- I mean, it made you upset?

4

A.

Correct.

1
2

5
6
7

me.

As an American and as a fellow Soldier, I was

distraught by the statements he had made.
Q.

And you interpreted his statements to be disloyal to

America?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Now once you did that, you never reduced the -- this

10

counseling session to a written counseling form, did you?

11

A.

Not at that time, no.

12

Q.

Not ever?

13

A.

Not -- no, sir.

14

Q.

And prior to 2010 -- the arrest of PFC Manning in May of

15

2010, you never reduced this allegation to writing?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Now if you really thought that PFC Manning said disloyal

18

comments to America, that would be a serious matter, wouldn't it?

19

A.

It is a serious matter, sir.

20

Q.

Listen to my question.

21

wouldn't it?

22

A.

That would be a serious matter,

Yes.

23

10731

14301

1
2

Q.

And it would be a serious matter because he had a Top

Secret clearance.

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

It would be a serious matter because he had access to

5

classified information?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

It would be a serious matter because he's an analyst -- an

8

all-source analyst?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

And you're his supervisor at this time?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

You heard of the phrase, I'm sure, that if it's not in

13

writing, it didn't happen?

14

to counselings, haven't you?

You've heard of that phrase with regards

15

A.

I'm sure at one point I have heard that.

16

Q.

Yeah, and that phrase basically means that you need to

17

document things, right?

18

A.

Correct.

19

Q.

And, in fact, you said on direct that you would counsel

20

things that you needed to document?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

And yet you didn't counsel this; you didn't put it in

23

writing?

10732

14302

1

A.

I did not.

2

Q.

Now you have counseled PFC Manning in the past?

3

A.

Yes.

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5

Can I get Defense Exhibit QQ [retrieving the

document from the court reporter].

6

[Pause]

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m showing the witness what's been marked

8

as Defense Exhibit QQ for identification [handing the document to the

9

witness].
Take a moment, Ms. Showman, and thumb through that, and

10
11

when you're done, just look up at me.

12

[The witness did as directed.]

13

Q.

Now you recognize these documents?

14

A.

I do.

15

Q.

These are counseling statements that you did for PFC

16

Manning?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

And there are three counseling statements in this exhibit?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Let's discuss the first one, okay?

21

A.

All right.

22

Q.

This first one is your initial counseling statement, is

23

that correct?

10733

14303

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

That's when you became his new team leader?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And you counseled him there basically on your expectations

5

and his duties?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

And in that counseling statement you noted that PFC Manning

8

seemed to have an excessive caffeine consumption.

Do you see that?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

You also told him that it was your obligation to hold him

11

to standard?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And later that same day you did hold him to standard,

14

correct?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

Let's look at the second counseling statement.

17

[The witness did as directed.]

18

Q.

19

In that second counseling statement, you counseled him for

being late to formation?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

And also for basically losing his military bearing?

22

A.

Yes.

23

10734

14304

1
2

Q.

And you told him in that counseling statement that his

actions were unacceptable and will not -- would not be tolerated?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

You noted your duty to inform him of any deficiency?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

You also noted it was your duty to provide corrective

7

training?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Now in this written -- written counseling, you also noted

10

that you had a duty on uphold the Army Values?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

And in addition to this event counseling, you also gave

13

monthly performance counselings, correct?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

Let's look at the third one.

16

[The witness did as directed.]

17

Q.

18

Now, this is a monthly counseling session for June of 2009,

correct?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And in this counseling statement you noted that PFC Manning

21

was a smoker?

22

A.

Correct.

23

10735

14305

1
2

Q.

And you noted that because you said, hey, per regulation,

you're not going to get additional time for smoke breaks?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

You wanted him to know that?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

And you told him actually he would have to request

7

permission for smoke breaks?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

And in this counseling statement you also recommended him

10

for Soldier of the month board?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

So it's clear you had the ability to counsel him on some

13

kind of minor points, correct?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

Such as being a smoker, drinking too much caffeine?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

And if you could do that -- if you can do that in writing,

18

why didn't you reduce the alleged statements -- the disloyal

19

statements that you say he said to writing?

20

A.

As a leader, I felt that I had reached my limitation with

21

the issue, so I took it to a higher supervisor.

22

immediately to Sergeant Mitchell and Sergeant Adkins.

23

10736

So I took it

14306

1
2
3

Q.

As a leader you felt you reached your limitations.

What

does that mean?
A.

That means if it's an issue -- as a specialist in the

4

United States Army that I felt I did not have really the knowledge,

5

background, or the capability of writing a counseling statement that

6

needed to be thoroughly elaborated to that extent.

7

it to my superiors.

8
9

Q.

Oh, we need to break that down.

I needed to take

You felt you couldn't

write the counseling statement?

10

A.

That's not what I said, sir.

11

Q.

All right, I want to make sure I understand what you said.

12

So why didn't you write a counseling statement that said, hey, during

13

verbal counseling statement I tapped my shoulder and out of the blue

14

PFC Manning said I have no loyalty to this country; the flag means

15

nothing to me?

16

A.

I was instructed not to write the counseling statement.

17

Q.

You were what?

18

A.

Instructed not to write it.

19

someone else.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

Okay.

That it would be handled by

Well, we'll get to that ----

22
23

10737

14307

1

Q.

---- because that's a new statement.

2

you get to the instruction of not writing it.

3

the counseling statement right then and there?

4
5

A.

So let's go before
Why didn't you write

Because that's not how it's done, sir.

You don't write a

counseling statement right on -- on the spot.

6

Q.

Why not?

7

A.

That's not how I was trained to do counseling statements.

8

You verbally counsel them ----

9

Q.

Right?

10

A.

---- and then you go from there.

11

And then typically you go

and get on a computer, write up a counseling statement, and then ----

12

Q.

When do you typically do that?

13

A.

Depending on -- depending on where -- when it happened

14
15

during the day.
Q.

A lot of the time the next day.

Well, let’s look at your -- let's go back to your second

16

statement -- the second counseling statement.

He was late to

17

formation; when did you counsel him on that day?

18

A.

The next day.

19

Q.

You counseled him the next day?

20

A.

I believe so.

21

[Pause while the witness looked through the document.]

22

Q.

Let me check.

Take a look at the date in which PFC Manning signs it.

23

10738

14308

1
2

A.

If you will see, sir, date of counseling is the 7th of

April --

3

Q.

Right.

4

A.

-- and the event happened on the 6th of April.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

-- on this missing formation stuff?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

And so -- I guess from your standard how you do things, you

And so you counseled him the next day on this --

10

would counsel him the next day on these so-called disloyal

11

statements?

12

A.

13

end of shift.

14

Q.

15

It -- it happened in the evening, sir.

It happened at the

And typically ----

All right.

So maybe -- maybe we'll give you a day break.

And you’d counsel him the second day, wouldn't you?

16

A.

It need -- if that -- if that was my duty, yes.

17

Q.

Well, wasn't it your duty?

18

You said it was your duty to

hold him to standard?

19

A.

I had handed off the issue to my superior.

20

Q.

Who did you hand the issue off to?

21

A.

To Sergeant Mitchell and Sergeant Adkins.

22

Q.

Sergeant Mitchell and Sergeant Adkins is you have ----

23

A.

Correct.

10739

14309

1
2
3
4
5
6

Q.

Okay.

I suppose from your answer then one of those people

told -- instructed you not to write a counseling statement?
A.

They told me they would handle -- they would take care of

the counseling statement.
Q.

Listen to my question.

Did one of those people instruct

you not to write a counseling statement?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

Who?

9

A.

It was Sergeant Adkins.

10

Q.

Sergeant Adkins instructed you not to write a counseling

11

statement?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

That's your testimony?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

All right.

16

And did you ask Sergeant Adkins why you're

instructing me not to write a counseling statement?

17

A.

Yes, I did.

18

Q.

Okay, and what did Sergeant Adkins tell you?

19

A.

He said he would take care of it.

20

He would handle the

counseling statement.

21

Q.

That he would counsel him?

22

A.

Correct.

23

Q.

For something that he wasn't there for?

10740

14310

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

Did you -- did you ask Sergeant Adkins why he would do

A.

I -- I'm assuming I probably would have, but I couldn't

3
4
5
6
7

that?

give you a verbatim of what I actually would have said.
Q.

Okay, and were you present -- I mean, again, my

understanding -- you're his first line supervisor, right?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Were you present for Sergeant Adkins’ writing up this

10

second counseling statement?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Did Sergeant Adkins ever write a counseling statement up?

13

A.

Not to my knowledge.

14

Q.

Did you go back to Sergeant Adkins and say why didn't you

15

write a counseling statement?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And what did Sergeant Adkins tell you then?

18

A.

I -- I don't know exactly what he told me, sir.

19

Q.

Well, do you recall going back to him and asking him about

20

this second counseling statement?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

And when was that?

23

10741

14311

1
2
3
4

A.

That was approximately -- probably within -- within a few

days after the incident.
Q.

Okay.

So your testimony is Sergeant Adkins tells you not

to write the counseling statement, says he will do it, right?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

And you see it's not done, is that right?

7

A.

Well -- well, I assumed it wasn't done.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

wasn't done?

10

A.

You assume it's not done.

Why did you assume it

Well, they hadn't communicated with -- communicated to me

11

that it had been done.

12

information with me.

They also did not have to communicate that

13

Q.

When you say they, who are you saying?

14

A.

Sergeant -- Sergeant Mitchell, who was my superior ----

15

Q.

Right.

16

A.

---- and Sergeant Adkins, who was above Sergeant Mitchell.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

So they didn't communicate to you that the

counseling was done.

And then you felt the need to inquire?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

And who did you inquire?

21

A.

I believe -- I -- my assumption is that I would have

22

inquired -- spoken to Sergeant Mitchell before I spoke to Sergeant

23

Adkins about the issue.

So I probably would have asked both of them.

10742

14312

1

Q.

2

specifically?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And Sergeant Adkins told you what?

5

A.

He told me -- I actually don't remember what he told me,

6

All right.

But you recall asking Sergeant Adkins

but he indicated to me that the situation was being handled.

7

Q.

And did he tell you how?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

All right.

Not that I remember.
Did -- when -- I guess now he says it's been

10

handled or it's going to be handled.

11

whether or not the counseling statement was done?

12
13

A.

Did you at a later date verify

I did not verify whether a counseling statement had been

done at a later date.

14

Q.

Why not?

15

A.

I honestly was getting ready for deployment, and I had many

16

mission essential taskings to take place and left it up to Sergeant

17

Adkins to handle.

18
19

Q.

Do you see how your allegations would be important to

capture in a written statement?

20

A.

I can see that, yes.

21

Q.

Yeah.

22
23

And it would be important because then we wouldn't

have to rely upon your memory right now would we?
A.

Correct.

10743

14313

1

Q.

We'd have a counseling statement?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

And we don't have that?

4

A.

I understand that, sir.

5

Q.

We don't have that, do we?

6

A.

No we -- we don't.

7

Q.

And you claim that apparently you went to Sergeant Adkins

8

to get the counseling statement done by him, right?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And you also apparently told him exactly what you allege

11

PFC Manning said?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

So you told Sergeant Adkins that PFC Manning said the flag

14

meant nothing to him, he had no loyalty to this country?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

That's what you told him?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Now you even claim at a later date that you told Sergeant

19

Adkins that you thought PFC Manning was a possible spy?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Those were your words ----

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

---- possible spy?

10744

14314

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And what made you think at that point he was a possible

A.

Everything that kind of led up to -- to specific

3
4

spy?

5

circumstances and -- just due to my training -- anyone that is kind

6

of questionable, I just kind of feel that they should be treated as

7

though their actions are questionable as far as being someone that

8

would gather information and disseminate them to -- to foreign

9

individuals.

10

Q.

11

Well, when you're telling him he’s a possible spy it's at

the time that you're recording these two statements?

12

A.

It -- it was within that week.

13

Q.

Okay, and what did you know within that week -- because as

14

far as I know it's the alleged statement about the flag and no

15

loyalty.

16

possible spy?

17

A.

It was his actions up to that point, sir.

18

Q.

What actions?

19

A.

The -- the reaction by the -- missed formation, the fact

20

that you ----

21

Q.

Okay, let's break it down.

22

A.

Okay.

What in that week did you know that made you think he was a

23

10745

14315

Q.

1
2

So we’ll go each one.

Missed formation; how did that make

him a possible spy?
A.

3

That indicated someone that may not be able to handle high

4

stress levels in a job as an intel’ -- intelligence.

5

doctor, so that is just my personal opinion.

6

question things.

7

been a possible spy.

I'm not a

So that made me kind of

But at that time I didn't feel that he could have
I just met the individual within the month.

8

Q.

Well, I only want to concentrate on those facts ----

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

---- that you relied upon to say I think he’s a possible

12

A.

Right.

13

Q.

Okay, so let’s just concentrate on that?

14

A.

Okay.

15

Q.

So give me your first fact.

16

A.

First fact is the -- it -- I have to use that first

11

spy.

17

incident because it -- it helped lead up to the point that I felt

18

that he could have been questionable.

19

my statement that his reaction after missed formation could possibly

20

lead up to that.

21

he would handle the task very enthusiastically.

22

tried to pull him off of that task, especially if it was a computer

So I contin -- I keep that in

And then whenever you would ask him to do things,

23

10746

But any time you

14316

1

task, he would appear to be very flustered and not really be able to

2

function properly after that point.

3

Q.

Okay, let's stop there then.

4

A.

Okay.

5

Q.

What made that fact, in your mind, say this is a possible

A.

The -- I -- I felt as though -- it just wasn't -- it wasn't

6

spy?

7
8

normal for someone that should be handling classified information.

9

It was honestly a feeling in my gut more than anything.

10

Someone that

was displaying that type of behavior ----

11

Q.

Well, I understand ----

12

A.

---- and knowing -- having knowledge that I had of what --

13

what we are to look for with people that could possibly disseminate

14

secret information.
Q.

15

Okay.

So now I get a fact.

So that's what I want to get

16

to.

17

to standard.

18

I think he's a spy, that's what I was trying to connect.

19

based upon his reaction, then that would lead to somebody that you

20

couldn't trust; is that what you're saying?

21

Like -- I understand you might think his reaction was not to --

A.

But taking that reaction to a conclusion where you say

Yes.

So you say,

If -- if -- we actually -- there are lists in the

22

military of things to watch for in individuals that could be

23

potential risks.

And ----

10747

14317

1
2
3

Q.

Okay.

And what were you -- from that list, can you recall

what you noted in order to say I think he's a spy?
A.

Abnormal outbursts, mental situations, just kind of acting

4

very protective of their time on classified information.

5

-- little things that would kind of instantly change in someone's

6

personality when dealing with classified information.

7
8
9
10

Q.

All right.

Just little

Anything else that you identified in order to

think in your mind he's a possible spy?
A.

Yes, there was a conversation that he had with me that,

combined with all the other things, made me really wonder.

11

Q.

At -- before you went to Sergeant Adkins?

12

A.

Yes, it actually happened before I went to Sergeant Adkins.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

And that conversation, I take it is -- is what?

He

had to scrub the internet ----

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

---- is that the conversation?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

All right.

19

A.

All right.

20

Q.

What did he say?

21

A.

He said that before he joined the military, he had to make

22

So why don’t we talk about that.

sure that he removed everything with his name on it to include blogs

23

10748

14318

1

and things like that from the internet otherwise he would not have

2

received a Top Secret clearance.

3

Q.

And did you know at that point he was gay?

4

A.

No, I didn't know that he was gay.

5

Q.

Did you suspect that he was gay?

6

A.

I had -- I had an assumption that he probably was.

7

Q.

And was it possible he was talking about his statements and

8

his affiliation with blogs about “Don't Ask, Don't Tell”, and

9

basically gay agenda issues?

10

A.

It is -- it is possible.

11

Q.

Okay.

12
13

So anything else, besides that, that caused you to

think, you know what, he's a spy?
A.

That, as well as a conversation he had with myself and

14

Sergeant Adkins.

15

after JRTC that we sat down with him and had a conversation.

I don't remember the timeline.

I believe it was

16

Q.

Okay.

What was in that conversation?

17

A.

He indicated that he was very paranoid that people were

18

listening in on his conversations and he couldn't -- he couldn’t

19

trust his work environment.

20
21
22
23

Q.

And could that be -- have anything to do with possibly

being gay and serving in the military?
A.

I do not think so because he -- to my knowledge, never

spoke about being gay in the office.

10749

14319

1

Q.

And that was because there was a policy, “don't ask, don't

2

tell”, right?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

All right.

5

A.

Not -- not that really comes to mind at this time.

6

Q.

Okay.

Anything else besides that?

So then you go to Sergeant Adkins and you say what

7

PFC Manning allegedly said to you and then you say I think he's a

8

possible spy.

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

And what does Sergeant Adkins do in response to that?

11

A.

He kind of looked at me and said, all right.

You used those words?

I'm pretty

12

sure we had a discussion how to try to get him, you know, the help he

13

needs because if he's overly stressed then, you know, maybe we can

14

help him with that.

15

He didn't necessarily entertain the idea that I project -- presented

16

to him.

17

Q.

18

PFC Manning.

19

I have no loyalty to this country.

20

think he's a spy?

Okay.

Maybe it's just something that we're assuming.

So you go to him and you say, hey, I just was with

I counseled him.

He said the flag means nothing to me.
You know, Sergeant Adkins, I

You say that?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

And Sergeant Adkins doesn't entertain that?

23

A.

He didn't entertain the “I think he's a spy” statement.

10750

14320

1

Mainly because it’s his Soldier and he would like to give him the

2

benefit of the doubt.

3

----

So he said he would handle the situation.

4

Q.

But you're his Soldier, too, right?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

And you're the supervisor?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

All right.

9

So you tell him this -- and -- I guess when

you're telling him this you believe what you're saying, right?

10

A.

I believe it, yes.

11

Q.

All right.

12
13

actually do anything?
A.

So when Sergeant Adkins hears this, he doesn't
Does he -- does he do anything at that point?

At that point, I believe he stepped out of the room.

14

actually released for the evening before Manning was.

15

sure what he did directly after our conversation.

16
17

And

Q.

I was

So I'm not

I imagine you’ve never had one of your Soldiers say he had

no loyalty to the country?

18

A.

Never.

19

Q.

So this would be a big event for you?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

So when nothing was done at, you know, day two, day three,

22
23

day four, day five, what did you do?
A.

I went and -- and spoke with Sergeant Adkins.

10751

14321

1

Q.

And what’d you say?

2

A.

I asked him what is going to be done.

3

And then as time

progressed what -- what would happen in the future.

4

Q.

Okay.

And what did Sergeant Adkins tell you?

5

A.

He told me that he was speaking to individuals that he

6

needed to speak to.

7

And that they would make the decision.

8
9

Q.

Okay.

I'm assuming he was referring to his superiors.

And you went -- is this the day two, day three, when

you went to Sergeant Adkins?

10

A.

Approximately.

11

Q.

All right.

12

And then did you ever, at a later date, go back

to him and say, I’m -- what's going on with this issue?

13

A.

Yes I did.

14

Q.

How many times?

15

A.

There were -- there was a couple of times.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

Meaning two, possibly three.

18

Q.

And tell us everything you know about the first time.

19

A.

The first time we discussed he actually indicated to me

Couple times meaning two or?

20

that he would like me to have Manning contact behavioral health again

21

to see if there's anything they can assist him with.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

10752

So I did that.

14322

1
2

A.

And then that's pretty much how that first conversation

Q.

Well, in that first conversation did you say, well,

went.

3
4

behavioral health is nice, but he's an analyst, he says he has no

5

loyalty to this country, he shouldn't be an analyst, did you say

6

that?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

Why not?

9

A.

I -- because that's not what I said -- because I didn't

10

have facts.

I had -- I had no solid facts to ----

11

Q.

Well, did you believe he should be an analyst?

12

A.

I -- honestly, sir, I wasn't an analyst long enough to

13

really make that decision, but I felt as though, no, he shouldn't

14

have.

15

Q.

All right.

And do you -- I mean, I guess if he had no

16

loyalty to the country or flag, did you believe he needed to be a

17

Soldier?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

Okay, so did you say, behavioral health is nice, but this

20

guy should not even be a Soldier?

21

A.

I was fully supportive of behavioral health.

22

Q.

No.

23

My question was, though, did you tell Sergeant Adkins

behavioral health is nice, but this guy should not even be a Soldier?

10753

14323

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

A.

I -- I made a statement that -- that we should consider

looking into whether he needs to stay in the military.
Q.

All right.

And why did you feel that you should consider

whether or not he should remain in the military?
A.

Because he -- it didn't appear as though he truly believed

in what it meant to be a Soldier.
Q.

Okay.

And so, I guess, if you really believed that, then

8

why would you just sit idly by and let -- let one of your Soldiers

9

then that you believe didn't need to be a Soldier, had no loyalty to

10

the country, actually stay in the Army?

11

A.

I had no control over whether he stayed or -- or went, sir.

12

Q.

Well, you did have control about talking to your chain of

13

command, right?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

So if you believed that, why didn't you go over Sergeant

16

First Class Adkins' head when nothing was being done to get him out

17

of the Army?

18

A.

19

was not done.

20

it would have been inappropriate for me to not trust Sergeant Adkins'

21

word and go above his head.

22
23

Q.

I honestly did not have any information on what was done or
I did my duty by going to my superiors.

At that point

That's inappropriate.

Well, it might have been, but when you're getting ready for

deployment -- PFC Manning deployed with you, right?

10754

14324

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

And he was one of your Soldiers when you deployed?

3

A.

Initially, yes.

4

Q.

Yeah.

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

So you if you really felt that he had no loyalty to the

You were his supervisor again?

7

country, the flag meant nothing to him, he was a possible spy, why

8

would you deploy with this guy?

9

A.

I was told that the decision had been made ----

10

Q.

All right.

11

A.

---- and that there was nothing I could do about it.

12

Q.

Who told you that?

13

A.

Sergeant Adkins.

14

Q.

And at that point did you feel that perhaps it might be

15

appropriate to go over Sergeant First Class Adkins' head?

16

A.

I did not feel it was appropriate.

17

Q.

And why not?

18

A.

I honestly wasn't -- knowing -- knowing my unit and my

19

chain of command, they would have want -- they would have wanted me

20

to go through Sergeant Adkins because that is what is appropriate of

21

a specialist.

22

first sergeant's door, the commander's door of the company, they

23

would have dismissed me and had me go through Sergeant Adkins.

And if I were to just show up at the S-2's door or the

10755

14325

1
2
3

Q.

Oh would they?

Would -- doesn't your commander or first

sergeant have an open door policy?
A.

They do, however, I did not have an issue with my first

4

line supervisor, so therefore it could have -- it was an issue that

5

they could have handled.

6
7

Q.

Well, if the commander and first sergeant’s open door

policy is potentially you -- if you have any issue you come to me?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

And this would certainly be an issue?

10

A.

It would -- it would have been an issue, yeah.

11

Q.

Yeah, it would have been an issue of; Commander, I think

12

you should know one of your Soldiers has no loyalty to this country?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

Why didn't you go to your commander or your first sergeant

15

under the open door policy?

16

A.

I did not feel that it was appropriate.

17

Q.

Because?

18

A.

Because I -- I took it through the appropriate channels.

19

Q.

And nothing was being done, right?

20

A.

It -- I did not have any knowledge of whether it was done

21

or -- I -- I did not know how far it went up the chain of command.

22

Q.

Did you ever ask?

23

A.

I ----

10756

14326

1
2
3

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Your Honor, objection.

These questions have

been asked and answered five different times.
MJ:

I'll let you have a little latitude, but we are asking the

4

same kinds of things.

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Go ahead.
Okay, Your Honor, I don't believe I am.

6

-- I believe I'm exploring the basis for the reliability of the

7

statement because if she believed it you would expect more.

8

MJ:

I understand where you're going with it.

9

Q.

So did you -- did you ask how far it went up the chain?

10

A.

I didn't ask how far.

11
12
13

I asked if he actually spoke to

individuals that could have made the decision and he said he did.
Q.

Okay, so then Master Sergeant Adkins told you he spoke to

people who could make a decision?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

And who -- did he tell you who he spoke to?

16

A.

No.

17

Q.

Did you ask?

18

A.

I don't -- I don’t recall whether I did or did not.

19
20

I’m

It's

possible I did ask.
Q.

So then when you deployed he's one of your Soldiers at that

21

point, do you bring it up at all that I don't want to be supervising

22

this guy?

23

A.

No.

10757

14327

1

Q.

And why not?

2

A.

At that point I was told to leave the issue and to drive on

3

and complete the mission ‘cause that's one of my primary tasks as a

4

Soldier.

5

Q.

So you just put that out of your mind?

6

A.

Yes, actually.

7

Q.

Now, you know what a derog is?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

And a derog is derogatory information that can be filed

10

against somebody that has a clearance?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

And you knew what a derog was at the time of the alleged

13

statements?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And you would agree with me that a derog should be filed if

16
17

-- if someone with a clearance makes disloyal to America statements?
A.

I would assume that it would.

I honestly don't know what

18

regulation states the perimeters are, but I, at that time, would have

19

assumed that, yes.

20
21

Q.

Yeah, and you assume that because somebody who has no

loyalty to the country really shouldn't have a clearance?

22

A.

Correct.

23

Q.

And did you ever report this to the company commander who

10758

14328

1

would file the derog?

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

And why not?

4

A.

Because it was not my position to do so.

5

Q.

Did you ever ask somebody to report this so that a derog

6
7

could be filed?
A.

At that time I wasn't -- I wasn’t quite sure whether derogs

8

needed more information.

9

situation was going to be handled, I kind of took that as being

10

And when I was instructed that the

truth.

11

Q.

So you, at that time, thought about derogs?

12

A.

They weren't at the forefront of my mind.

I had had

So at that -- at that time

13

minimal kind of association with derogs.

14

-- if I thought about derogs I thought you probably needed more --

15

more paperwork to -- to submit a derog for something like that.

16
17

Q.

All right.

So -- so right now on the stand did you think

about derogs or not?

18

A.

Not that I remember.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

And you think if you did, you would have thought

maybe more paperwork ----

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

---- would be needed?

23

A.

Yes.

10759

14329

Q.

1
2

All right.

Now you recall being questioned by CID after

PFC Manning's arrest, correct?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And, in fact, immediately after the arrest, CID interviewed

5

everyone in the S-2 session?

6

A.

I don't know that for a fact. I -- I assume so.

7

Q.

Well, you know that CID came and was conducting their

8

investigation?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

And you were one of the individuals they did an interview

11

of on 27 May 2010?

12
13
14
15

A.

I don't remember the date, sir.

But they did interview me,

Q.

And at that point when they interviewed you, they -- they

yes.

told you why they were doing it, right?

16

A.

They indicated -- I believe they did, yes.

17

Q.

I mean, you understood that PFC Manning was being arrested?

18

A.

Actually, at that time I knew he was arrested, but they

19
20
21
22
23

didn't give us facts on what he was actually arrested for.
Q.

Well, you understood the general allegation -- the general

allegation was that he had disclosed classified information?
A.

What I understood is that someone disclosed classified

information and he was taken as a possible suspect.

10760

14330

1

Q.

Okay.

So you understood that CID suspected him?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

All right.

And at that point they -- when they were doing

4

their investigation they were doing a canvas interview of everybody

5

to try to get as many facts as they could?

6

A.

Yes, I believe so.

7

Q.

And you were one of the people that they interviewed?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

And obviously when they were interviewing you, you knew it

10

was important to tell them everything you knew?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Anything that might help them in their investigation?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

And, in fact, you did tell them several things.

15

recall telling them that you believe he was a closed person?

16

A.

A closed person?

17

Q.

Correct.

18

A.

It's possible that I used that terminology, yes.

19

Q.

All right.

20

Do you

Do you recall telling them that PFC Manning did

not really hang out with other people in the unit?

21

A.

To my knowledge, yes, that's what I told them.

22

Q.

Do you recall describing PFC Manning as a pressure cooker?

23

10761

14331

1
2
3
4

A.

I don't -- I don't recall using those words actually.

It's

possible.
Q.

All right.

Do you recall telling them that PFC Manning

tried to stay late at work?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And do you recall mentioning that he would discuss politics

7

and global politics?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Do you recall telling him that he even left his camera once

10

in the SCIF -- SCIF and that was not allowed?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

All right.

So you told them about wanting to stay late and

13

leaving his camera in the SCIF as basically instances where something

14

wasn't quite right with what PFC Manning was doing, right?

15
16
17
18

A.

Correct.

It was abnormal compared to the rest of the

Soldiers in our unit.
Q.

All right.

And on that date, you never told them about

disloyal statements?

19

A.

I don't -- I don't recall.

20

Q.

You don't recall?

21

A.

Whether that's true or not.

22

Q.

All right.

23

So PFC Manning’s arrested, they're

investigating the release of classified information, he's the prime

10762

14332

1

suspect; you're telling them about staying late, being a pressure

2

cooker, not hanging out with anybody, and that even one time leaving

3

a camera in the SCIF, and you don't recall telling them about anti-

4

American disloyal statements?
A.

5

I -- I recall indicating that in a sworn statement taken in

6

Iraq.

I don't recall the individuals -- because I was interviewed by

7

two separate groups of individuals.

8

Q.

Right?

9

A.

And I'm not quite sure which ones you're referring to.

10

Q.

All right.

11

Well, I'm referring to the interview that you

initially did on 27 May.

Now you ----

12

A.

So that would have been ----

13

Q.

---- you did an interview again in June ----

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

---- and that's the first time you actually put it in a

16
17

sworn statement in June about this, right?
A.

I -- no, I actually believe I mentioned it in -- in the

18

first sworn statement with the individuals that came to Iraq and

19

visited us in FOB Hammer.

20

Q.

All right.

21

A.

I recall giving two.

22

Q.

And in those sworn statements -- do you recall the dates of

23

How many sworn statements do you recall giving?

those?

10763

14333

1

A.

I do not recall the dates of the sworn statements.

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right.

I’m going to show you two sworn

3

statements.

4

could just mark them [speaking to the court reporter].

5

[The court reporter marked the document Defense Exhibit Romeo Romeo.]

6

I’m going to get these marked though, first.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I'm showing you Defense Exhibit Romeo Romeo

7

for identification [handing the document to the witness].

8

look at that.

9

If you

Take a

And when you're done, look up at me.

[The witness did as directed.]

10

Q.

All right.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And these are the only sworn statements you've given?

13

A.

From what -- from what I can remember, yes.

14

Q.

All right.

15

So are these your two sworn statements?

So one of those sworn statements is June 18th of

2010?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Another is January 19th of 2011?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

All right.

So what I'm talking about is 27 May 2010; the

20

canvas interview, why didn't you tell them on that day about these

21

alleged statements if they really happened?

22
23

A.

I believe at that time they were asking me very direct

questions and I was answering questions.

10764

And from what I can

14334

1

remember they weren't -- they didn't open the floor to any -- any

2

add-ons that I felt was necessary.

3

that actually personal questioning.
Q.

4
5

I don't quite remember that --

What was the direct question that got to he left a computer

-- or a camera in the SCIF?
A.

They probably -- I don't remember the questions verbatim --

8

Q.

Right.

9

A.

---- but they probably asked me if he did anything that

6
7

--

10

would have violated any security requirements or regulations in the

11

actually SCIF.

12

Q.

Okay.

So when they asked you that question, it doesn't pop

13

in your mind, you know what, right before the deployment, he did say

14

he had no loyalty to the country and the flag meant nothing to him?

15

A.

I'm sure it popped into my mind.

16

Q.

Not enough to say anything?

17

A.

They didn’t -- they -- I was -- I was to answer specific

18

questions.

19

Q.

You didn't feel you should volunteer that?

20

A.

I'm sure I felt I should have volunteered that.

21

Q.

But you didn't?

22

A.

I guess I didn't because I don't see that in front of me.

23

Q.

Well, I don't need you to guess.

10765

When CID pulled you aside

14335

1

on 27 May 2010, days after PFC Manning being arrested, you see the

2

agents going around confiscating computers, you know, interviewing

3

everyone in the S-2 section to include yourself ----

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

---- and you know PFC Manning has been arrested, classified

6

information’s been leaked, he's the prime suspect, you don't say at

7

that point, you know what, I've got some information for you guys?

8
9

A.

I do not remember anything that was said during that

interview.

10

Q.

Nothing?

11

A.

I truthfully do not remember.

12

Q.

Sure could use a sworn statement then of when this

13

statement happened so that we could confirm that you're not just

14

making it up in June, right?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

So in June of 2010, after PFC Manning is arrested, after

17

all the issues come out, that's the first you time you write down in

18

a sworn statement, you know what, he said he had no loyalty to this

19

country, is that correct?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

And let's look at that statement for a moment.

22
23

Yeah.

-- where do you write that?
A.

[Reviewing the document.]

10766

Let’s look

14336

1

Q.

I can help you.

2

A.

Can you elaborate on that question?

3

Q.

Yeah, where do you write the facts that PFC Manning said

4

It's in the middle of Page Two.

anti-American disloyal comments to you?

5

A.

Where -- where on the actual statement I wrote it?

6

Q.

In the statement, yes.

7

A.

Yes.

I wrote that following -- indicating that Specialist

8

Cooley went to D.C. to visit him.

9

verbally -- was verbally counseling Manning.

And then I indicated that I

10

Q.

Where is that at?

11

A.

That's halfway down page Number Two.

12

Q.

All right.

13

So now -- I -- I imagine at this point you

understand why you're being interviewed by CID?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

You understand at this point -- this whole thing is flashed

16

on the news -- PFC Manning arrest, the leaks that are happening,

17

correct?

18

A.

I honestly didn't see anything on the news at that point.

19

Q.

Nothing?

20

A.

I had very limited TV access.

21

Q.

And so -- well, let's just go with what you knew then.

22

A.

Okay.

23

10767

I was still in Iraq.

14337

1
2

Q.

Did you know at that point that he was arrested for leaking

classified information?

3

A.

Correct.

Yes.

4

Q.

Did you know at that point then -- I guess you're

5

suspicions of him being a spy and perhaps not having loyalty to the

6

country, maybe that was true then?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Yeah.

9
10

And so now you have the sworn statement of yours,

why doesn't it start off with this?

Why doesn't it start off with,

you know what, I was right, no one listened to me?

11

A.

12

questioning.

13

Q.

Right?

14

A.

---- and then write in my own handwriting the -- the flow

15
16
17

This sworn statement was following a three-hour
And I was to answer questions ----

of their questioning.
Q.

All right.

Yeah -- and let's look -- I mean, this is in

your handwriting, correct?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

So what you're trying to tell me is then they told you to

20

write it in the flow of their questioning as opposed to what you

21

thought was most important?

22
23

10768

14338

1

A.

From my knowledge of a sworn statement, it doesn't -- it

2

doesn’t line up in what is most important.

3

actually is -- is the truth.

4

Q.

Okay.

It's the flow of what

And so when you're writing this out, you're talking

5

about a lot of stuff, and then you get to Page Two with the disloyal

6

statements.

7

most important thing in this?

Wouldn't you agree with me that that probably is the

8

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Objection, ma'am.

9

MJ:

Overruled.

10

A.

I -- I would assume that -- that possibly it is very

11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

Asked and answered.

important.
Q.

Okay.

And -- and wouldn't it if -- if it were the truth

and important, wouldn't that be something you would lead off with?
A.

No, because that's not -- that's not how our actual

questioning session took place.
Q.

Yeah, but this -- you're not writing this as they're asking

questions, are you?
A.

I answered several questions.

We wrote down the answers.

And I was to further elaborate the answers on a sworn statement.
Q.

So what you're saying now -- your testimony is that you

21

wrote this an -- this out based upon the order in which they asked

22

questions?

23

A.

Yes.

10769

14339

Q.

1
2

And so CID apparently didn't ask you a question about

disloyal statements until about halfway through the Page Two?

3

A.

I guess so, yes.

4

Q.

So that's when they decided to cover that important fact?

5

A.

I would believe so, yeah.

6

Q.

Okay.

All right.

7

about an EEO complaint.

8

correct?

Let's -- let’s go ahead and now talk

Now you and PFC Manning aren't friends,

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

You don't like him?

11

A.

I didn't have opinion -- an opinion towards him personally

12

one way or the other.
Q.

13
14

All right, so he wasn't important enough for you to decide

if you liked him or not?

15

A.

16

environment.

17

Q.

Okay, so you had no opinion on liking him or disliking him

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

---- is that your testimony?

21

[No response.]

22

Q.

And that was a, no, right?

23

A.

That is a no.

18

He was very important to me, but it wasn't a social
It was strictly professional.

----

10770

14340

1

Q.

Okay.

2

A.

I -- I -- I can't agree with that.

3

Q.

You think you got along with him?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

All right.

6

And you never got along with him, correct?

It's true that he filed an EEO complaint

against you during the deployment?

7

A.

I believe so, yeah.

8

Q.

You know so?

9

A.

I don't know for a fact it was him.

10

Q.

Well, you knew that he filed an EEO complaint against you -

11
12
13

- is that -- you're saying that you don't know that?
A.

I did not know -- no one factually told me that he was the

person that filed against me.

14

Q.

Let's look at the 19 January 2011 sworn statement, okay?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

That’s the typed on.

17

[The witness did as directed.]

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

Actually, before we get to Page Two -- because I’ll cover

20

that in a moment.

21

handwritten one.

And let’s turn to Page Two.

Let's go to your first statement -- the

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And we'll turn to Page 4 of 5.

10771

14341

1

[The witness did as directed.]

2

Q.

3

Okay, and I'm going to read this, but I want you to follow

along as I read this and then you tell me if I read this correctly?

4

A.

Okay.

5

Q.

[Reading from the document] Manning made a complaint to EEO

6

about Captain Martin, CW2 Ehresman and myself.

7

correctly?

Did I read that

8

A.

You did read that correctly.

9

Q.

All right, so you knew he made a complaint against you,

10

correct?

11

A.

I assumed he did.

12

Q.

Well, you didn't qualify it in this did you?

13

A.

No I didn't.

14

Q.

So at least in this sworn statement you said ----

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

---- he made the complaint against you?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And his complaint against you was for using derogatory --

19

No one told me for a fact.

Yeah.

derogatory terms such as “faggoty” ----

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

---- is that correct?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And you, in fact, admitted to using the word “faggoty”?

10772

14342

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

But you say that you used that term in reference to not

3

being able to do so many pushups as opposed to in reference to being

4

gay?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

So you believe PFC Manning misinterpreted your use of

7

faggoty as derogatory?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

Now PFC Manning could have misinterpreted something you

10

said.

Can you see how it's possible that you could have

11

misinterpreted something that PFC Manning said?

12

A.

As a general statement, yes.

13

Q.

Is it possible that you misinterpreted his statements about

14

having duty to all people and not having blind allegiance to a flag?

15

A.

I do not believe I misinterpreted that at all.

16

Q.

Not possible?

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

Not in your mind, huh?

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

All right.

Now PFC Manning also complained about your use

21

of several offensive references within the targeting office rules

22

that you posted, correct?

23

10773

14343

1
2

A.

I don't recall.

I'm not quite sure what you're speaking

of, sir.

3

Q.

All right.

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I can refresh your memory.
I'm showing you what's been marked as

5

Defense Exhibit Sierra Sierra for identification [handing the

6

document to the witness].

7

Q.

8

[The witness read the document.]

9

A.

I do recognize this, yes.

10

Q.

That's the targeting office rules that you posted?

11

A.

It was up at my computer, yes.

12

Q.

Not my question.

13
14

Do you recognize that?

That's the targeting office rules that

you posted?
A.

I don't know how to answer that question because I'm not

15

the one that actually created this document.

16

above my computer monitor, yes.

But, yes, I placed it

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

I believe -- from what I remember, yes.

19

Q.

So you're denying creating this document?

20

A.

I -- I -- I am -- I probably helped with some of the lines,

21

Are you saying Chief Hack created this document?

but it was overall his -- his document.

22
23

10774

14344

1

Q.

All right.

So let's go through some of these lines.

2

first one is -- you said, you must knock on the door prior to

3

entering, is that correct?

The

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

Then the second one says, if you have nothing smart to say,

6

then it better not come out of your mouth, correct?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

Then you say this office belongs to CW2 Hack and Specialist

9

Showman, so keep your grubby hands out.

10

A.

That's what it says.

11

Q.

Then the fourth says unless your chest carries some heavy

12

rank, don't even bother knocking.

13

A.

That is what it says.

14

Q.

Then the fifth says the individuals that own this office
So if you think for one

15

are in the business for catching shitbags.

16

second you can come in here and bug us with sissy shit, then you

17

might want to rethink your path in life.

18

A.

That is what it says.

19

Q.

Then you say targeting will not play games in your lane, so

20

if it’s -- and then you use what looks to be something that stands

21

for “fucking’, is that correct?

22

A.

Yes, that's what it looks like.

23

10775

14345

1
2

Q.

So if it is f'n games that you want to play, then by all

means drag my ass in with you, but beware, you will lose.

3

A.

I see that here, yeah.

4

Q.

Then the seventh rule is if any of these rules confuse you,

5

then maybe you should turn your sorry ass around because you have no

6

business being in my office?

7

A.

I see that.

8

Q.

And then lastly, go away.

9

A.

See that as well.

10

Q.

These are the rules that you had posted above your

11
12

computer?
A.

I know that we had targeting rules.

13

remember some of these rules.

14

There was no ----

15

Q.

100 percent a joke?

16

A.

There was no door.

17

I actually do not

But, yes, this was 100 percent a joke.

There was no actual office.

There were

two computers sitting next to each other.

18

Q.

Okay, so you're saying that this is a joke?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And that's why you posted it?

21

A.

That -- to my -- to my understanding, Chief Hack and I

22

laughed about it a couple of times.

23

Soldiers in the shop.

10776

And so did several other

14346

Q.

So Chief Hack would support your opinion that this was a

3

A.

I believe he would, yes.

4

Q.

Why do you believe that?

5

A.

Mainly because there definitely was not an office.

1
2

joke?

There

6

might be a couple of lines that he would consider something that he

7

was serious about, but the overall, I guess, intention of this was, I

8

guess to lighten -- lighten the situation because there was

9

definitely not an office for people to actually come to.

10
11
12

Q.

Okay, so I'm missing the joke.

Can you explain to me what

the joke was supposed to be?
A.

The joke was that we were being really serious about having

13

an actual targeting office, and we were making office rules that

14

didn't necessarily make sense for the mission.

15

Q.

And why was that funny?

16

A.

It's funny to -- to most Soldiers.

17
18

It was funny in the

shop at the time.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay.

Retrieving Defense Exhibit Sierra

19

Sierra for identification [retrieving the document from the witness]

20

and offering into evidence as Defense Exhibit Sierra Sierra [handing

21

the document to the Military Judge].

22

MJ:

Any objection?

23

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No, ma'am.

10777

14347

1

MJ:

Defense Exhibit Sierra Sierra’s admitted.

2

Q.

Now at one point during the deployment PFC Manning punched

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

He hit you in the face?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And you didn't like getting hit in the face?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

Do you recall saying I can't believe he messed with me?

10

A.

I believe, I recall making a -- making a statement like

3

11
12
13

you?

that, yes.
Q.

And you recall saying I was the last person he probably

should have messed with?

14

A.

I don't recall saying that in those words.

15

Q.

All right, let me get the words right.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

I was the last person he probably should have punched?

18

A.

The first part of that statement I believe is a little off

19
20
21

-- from my -- from my memory.
Q.

Okay, do you recall giving a statement to the documentary

“We Steal Secrets”?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And -- and you gave a statement in that film, correct?

10778

14348

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

Now in that film did you say I was the last person he

3
4

probably should have punched?
A.

I honestly haven't seen the documentary.

But that's not --

5

that's not -- I worded something like that, but I don't recall it

6

being worded exactly like that.

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

8

MJ:

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: It's not an exhibit, ma’am.

Well, I'll refresh your memory.

Mr. Coombs, has this exhibit been marked in some fashion?

10

MJ:

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

MJ:

13

Okay.

It's a video.

So.
A video of her previous statement.

Well, it's going to be in some fashion identified for the

record.

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Ma'am, we haven't seen this video before.

16

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

17

MJ:

18

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: We would like to see the video, yes, ma’am.

19

MJ:

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

MJ:

22

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Depends how long the video is, I guess,

23

I'll reduce it to ----

It’s their witness.

That’s doesn’t -- do you want a recess?

All right.

All right.

How long -- how long is the video?
Not long, ma'am.
Twenty minutes acceptable?

ma’am.

10779

14349

1
2

MJ:

Well, why don’t we start off with 20 minutes, and then if

you need more time, you can let me know.

3

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma’am.

4

MJ:

All right.

Go ahead and show the government the video.

5

Ms. Showman, please don't discuss your testimony or knowledge of the

6

case with anyone during the recess

7

WIT: Yes, Your Honor.

8

MJ:

9

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Anything we need to address before we recess the Court?

10

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

11

MJ:

No, Your Honor.

No, ma’am.

Court is in recess.

12

[The court-martial recessed at 1043, 19 July 2013.]

13

[The court-martial was called to order at 1117, 19 July 2013.]

14

MJ:

Court is called to order.

Let the record reflect all

15

parties present when the Court last recessed are again present in

16

court.

17

had the opportunity to do what you asked me to do?

18
19

The witness is on the witness stand.

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma'am.

Government, have you

We reviewed two clips from the

video.

20

MJ:

All right, Mr. Coombs, are you ready to proceed?

21

Q.

Ms. Showman, you indicated that you could not recall, so I

22
23

want to go ahead and play a clip for you and have you watch it.
[The Civilian Defense Counsel played a video on the video screen

10780

14350

1
2
3

in full view of all court-martial participants.]
Q.

So you see there you say, I was the last person he probably

should have punched?

4

A.

Yes, I saw that.

5

Q.

Okay, so does that refresh your memory?

6

A.

It - it does.

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Retrieving from the witness Defense Exhibit

8

Quebec Quebec for identification [retrieving the document from the

9

witness].

Offering into evidence Defense Exhibit Quebec Quebec for

10

identification as Defense Exhibit Quebec Quebec [handing the document

11

to the Military Judge].

12

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Is that the -- is that the couns ----

13

MJ:

14

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No objection, Your Honor.

15

MJ:

Defense Exhibit Quebec Quebec’s admitted.

16

Q.

Now, the clip we just saw that was from the movie “We Steal

17

Any objection?

That’s the counseling.

Secrets”?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And this is a documentary that was released nationwide in

20

May of this year?

21

A.

I don't know when it was released, sir.

22

Q.

Do you know that it was released this year?

23

A.

Yes.

10781

14351

1

Q.

And you gave an interview for that documentary obviously?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

You actually appear in the movie?

4

A.

From what my parents have indicated, yes, I have appeared.

5

Q.

Okay, and they flew you to New York for the interview, is

6

that correct?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Your flight, your hotel, and travel expenses were paid?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And you gave this interview after your testimony in the

11

Article 32 testimony -- excuse me, after your testimony in the

12

Article 32 hearing?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

And you knew at the time that you gave this interview that

15
16

you were going to be a witness in this trial?
A.

It -- it was I didn't know for sure if I was going to be a

17

witness in this trial.

18

what was going to happen after the Article 32 hearing.

19
20
21

Q.

I honestly didn't know what the kind of --

The government didn't inform you that you’re going to be

one of their witnesses?
A.

They said there was -- there was a chance, but I didn't

22

know what -- what actual court appearances would be needed.

23

know the process of what needed to have happen.

10782

I didn't

14352

1

Q.

All right.

So at the time you did this interview you're

2

telling us that you didn't believe you’d be testifying in a court-

3

martial?

4

A.

I knew there was a chance that I would be testifying.

5

Q.

And you did this interview actually to make PFC Manning

6

look bad?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

You didn't do this interview ----

9

A.

Did not.

10

Q.

---- to make him look bad?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

You said negative comments about him, correct?

13

A.

I told truths about situations that took place.

14

Q.

My question was you made negative comments about him,

15
16
17

correct?
A.

I didn't believe they were negative, so I can't say that

that is correct.

18

Q.

You didn't believe any of your comments were negative?

19

A.

I -- I -- no.

20

Q.

Not at all?

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

Do you recall -- well, actually we'll table that for

one moment ----

10783

14353

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

---- I'll come back to that and you tell me if you think

3

that it was negative.

You have a Twitter account, correct?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And actually a -- more accurately used to have a Twitter

6

account?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

And on September 12th of 2012, you sent out a Tweet

9

regarding PFC Manning and his supporters, correct?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And in that Tweet you stated, ignorant people break the

12

rules and say it's honorable.

Ignorant thoughtless followers support

13

Manning without even knowing the truth?

14

A.

Yes, I said that.

15

Q.

That's what you said?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

So you don't support PFC Manning obviously?

18

A.

I don't support what was allegedly -- what allegedly took

19
20
21
22
23

place.
Q.

And I guess you would say that anyone who would, would be

ignorant?
A.

No one understood the true facts at that point to my -- to

my beliefs.

10784

14354

1
2
3
4

Q.

Okay.

And I guess when you say ignorant people break the

rules, that’s -- you're referring to PFC Manning?
A.

I was referring to anyone in general that would break the

rules and be called a hero, yes.

5

Q.

And so in this instance you're referring to PFC Manning?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Okay, now going back to what you said -- you didn't think

8

you said anything negative in there -- in the "We Steal Secrets", in

9

your opinion you stated -- this was your opinion, that his actions

10

showed that he had no allegiance to this country?

11

A.

Can you identify when you're referring ----

12

Q.

In the ----

13

A.

---- to that statement?

14

Q.

---- with regards to the -- to the "We Steal Secrets" ----

15

A.

Okay.

16

Q.

---- you told them, in your opinion, his actions showed

17

that he had no allegiance to this country?

18

A.

I do not remember saying that.

19

Q.

You don't remember saying that?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Do you remember saying, in your opinion, his actions showed

22
23

that he had no desire for our country's well-being?
A.

I don't recall that statement either.

10785

14355

1
2

Q.

Do you recall saying you believe that he had a desire to do

damage to our country?

3

A.

4

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

5

[The court reporter marked the CD Defense Exhibit Uniform

6

I don't recall that.
Can I have the next CD marked?

Uniform for identification.]

7

MJ:

8

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: The government objects to the use of this

9

Yes [speaking to Captain Overgaard]?

because she doesn't actually say that in the -- in the clip.

10

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

11

MJ:

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

13
14

Well, we'll find out in a moment.

I’ll -- overruled.

Let's see what the clip says.

I'm going to play what's been marked as

Defense Exhibit Uniform Uniform for identification.
[The civilian defense counsel played the audio CD, Defense Exhibit

15

Uniform Uniform for identification in open court where all court-

16

martial participants could hear.]

17

Q.

That's your voice, isn't it?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

So I'll ask you these questions again.

Does it refresh

20

your memory now that you said in your opinion his actions showed that

21

he had no allegiance to this country?

22
23

A.

That is what -- that is what I said.

I don't recall that

that question was actually identified as Manning, in particular.

10786

It

14356

1

was actually a broad -- it was actually a broad question, and they do

2

not show that obviously.

3

Q.

Are you saying that in my opinion his actions showed --

4

this is what you say, I quote you “In my opinion, his actions showed

5

that he had no allegiance to his country.”?

6
7

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Objection, that's a mischaracterization.
She said “somebody”, not “his actions”.

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

9

MJ:

Well, we can play it again.

Well, go ahead.

10

[The civilian defense counsel played the audio CD, Defense Exhibit

11

Uniform Uniform for identification in open court where all court-

12

martial participants could hear.]

13
14
15

Q.

All right, so you're saying now on the stand that you are

not referring to PFC Manning when you say that?
A.

The gen -- the question that I was asked -- I don't

16

remember verbatim -- was they asked me to give them an example of

17

what -- in -- under what -- these circumstances of this case, because

18

at that time Manning was just allegedly -- asking me what my opinion

19

as far as this topic, what would be considering a whistleblower.

20

was not identifying Manning in that statement.

21

Q.

All right.

I

So my question -- and then you can just answer

22

it -- when you're saying actions show that he has no allegiance to

23

this country, actions show has no desire for our country's well-

10787

14357

1

being, has a desire to do damage to our country, you're saying right

2

now on the stand, that when you said that, you're not referring to

3

PFC Manning?

4

A.

I'm referring to anyone that would do something like that,

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

I did not know whether PFC Manning had done anything like

5

8

yes.

that at that time.

9

Q.

All right.

So are you referring to PFC Manning or not?

10

A.

No.

11

Q.

That's what you want us to believe?

12

A.

Yes.

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

MJ:

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Retrieving from the witness Defense Romeo Romeo

No further questions.

Redirect?

16

for identification [retrieving the document from the witness and

17

handing it to the court reporter].

18

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: May I have a moment?

19

MJ:

20

[Pause]

21

Yes.

[END OF PAGE]

22
23

10788

14358

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

1
2
3

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

I'm just going to go over a couple of things that defense

4

brought up just to let you clarify anything.

5

was an EEO complaint while you were deployed?

So was there -- there

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And it was because you had said that you had said something

8

was fagotty?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Was there other EEO complaints while you were deployed?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Was there any consequences to that particular EEO

13

complaint?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

So what happened?

16

A.

I was pulled into the EO office, and the EO officer

17

informed me of the allegations brought against me.

And I explained

18

the situation to him.

19

when I actually said it.

20

me that I would need to, you know, be careful of what I say because

21

it could offend other people.

22

his attention again then he would have to pull me back into the

23

office.

What -- what I actually -- what had happened
I admitted to saying it.

And he informed

And that if something was brought to

10789

14359

1

Q.

Did you ever hear PFC Manning use the word fagotty?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And when was that?

4

A.

That was following the EO complaint.

5

Q.

Were there -- were there other gay Soldiers in your unit?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And did you have any issues with them?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

Did you have any other gay Soldier friends in the unit?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And is that -- was that any -- was your perceived sexual --

12

was your perceived perception -- or was your perception of PFC

13

Manning's sexual orientation -- was that -- that have anything to do

14

with why you had counseled him?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

In fact, was there a time that you -- you had learned

17

information about his sexual orientation?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And when was that?

20

A.

That was -- I believe it was around the May of 2009

21

timeframe.

He had gone to analyst training in Washington, D.C.

22

Q.

Okay, and what -- what did you learn?

23

A.

I learned ----

10790

14360

1
2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Objection, Your Honor.

Relevance.

At this

point of -- of information about my client's sexual orientation.

3

MJ:

Where are you going with this?

4

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Ma’am, they -- they brought it up to show

5

bias.

6

what she did that -- that indicates that she didn't have bias.

7

So I'm -- I’m -- I’m laying this foundation so she can show

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I brought it -- I brought up the EO

8

complaint to show bias, not sexual -- not for prejudice -- if she has

9

any towards gay individuals.

10

MJ:

Well, the word was "fagotty."

I’m going to overrule it and

11

allow it.

12

Questions continued by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:

13

A.

Can you repeat your question, ma'am?

14

Q.

Sure.

15
16

What did you -- when did you learn or when did you

receive some information about PFC Manning's sexual orientation?
A.

He -- he was away on TDY and I received a phone call from -

17

- from PFC Manning indicating that an NCO had accused him of some

18

homosexual acts outside of a hotel that the -- the individuals

19

attending TDY were staying at.

20
21

Q.

Without going into details, what happened as a -- as a

response to -- to that information?

22
23

10791

14361

1

A.

My response was to -- I got -- my first -- my first thing

2

was to get everything that -- that Manning wanted to tell me about

3

the situation.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

And I informed him that no matter what the outcome, when he

6

came back, we would try to assist him in the issue, and that we

7

obviously weren't going to take the NCO's word on the -- on the

8

situation.

9

who he is, what he does, or what he likes to do in his personal time,

And I did remind him that regardless of -- regardless of

10

that he should be just a little -- a little bit more cautious on

11

where he does things due to the fact we do have a “don't ask, don't

12

tell”, I just asked him not to tell us, but otherwise we would handle

13

the situation when he got back.

14

Q.

You say you assisted.

How did you assist him?

15

A.

I partnered up with Sergeant Adkins and we -- we kind of

16

got the NCO's side of the story and told him that there were no

17

grounds for -- for his accusation, and we weren't going to -- we

18

weren't going to entertain it.

19

Q.

Did anyone recommend separation?

20

A.

That NCO did.

21

Q.

And then how did you respond?

22
23

10792

14362

A.

1

I responded to the fact that he -- we pretty much told him

2

that we weren't going to pursue separation at all for -- for that --

3

for that issue.
Q.

4

And then just -- just to explain, in that video -- well,

5

can you tell us about -- what did you talk about in -- in the

6

interview that you did for that video that Mr. Coombs showed?
A.

7

We talked about a lot of things.

8

personal things about myself.

9

experience within the unit.

We talked about kind of

Where I come from.

My -- my

Different aspects on unit function and

10

things like that.

11

- I ever had, you know, personal conversations with Manning and

12

things like that, and just my opinion on different controversial

13

topics like whistleblowing or situations like Abu Ghraib and things

14

like that.
Q.

15
16

He asked me some questions about, you know, if I -

It was a very broad spectrum, two-hour questioning.
And did you -- did you discuss this -- the no allegiance

statement that you testified about ----

17

A.

No I did not.

18

Q.

---- today?

And did you discuss -- well, did you discuss

19

any other details related to the case or did you -- what type of

20

information did you talk about related to the case?
A.

21

The we talked -- we did -- I did talk about when he struck

22

me.

But the majority -- the majority of the questions were kind of

23

my personal opinion of situations.

10793

I was very, very careful to shut

14363

1

down any possible questions that could have pertained to the case

2

especially when the case was in closed session.

3

touch anything that wasn't public record.

4

really my personal views on -- on different situations and kind of,

5

you know, how -- what I thought of Manning just as a Soldier and

6

things like that.

7

Q.

And they knew not to

But primarily it was

Now Mr. Coombs talked to you about some of -- he brought

8

out from you that -- that PFC Manning had a lot of -- he was

9

interested in politics and things like that?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

What are some of his political views that you talked about?

12

A.

Politically ----

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

MJ:

15

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Well, actually -- I'll withdraw the

16
17

Objection, Your Honor.

What is the relevance of that?

question, ma'am.
Q.

In regard to -- was there any other information that you

18

considered when you stated that -- that you thought PFC Manning was a

19

possible spy, besides what Mr. Coombs elicited from you?

20

A.

Was there any other information that would elicit?

21

Q.

That -- was there any other information that you -- that

22

went into your -- you said it was kind of a gut feeling, a personal -

23

- I guess a personal opinion that went into that decision?

10794

14364

1

A.

There -- there was some -- some things that he definitely -

2

- definitely did around -- around the office that definitely walked

3

the line of personal security issues, if not crossed them.

4

just kind of further solidified ----

5

MJ:

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

So it

Yes [speaking to the defense]?
Your Honor, I'd like to have this as a

7

timeframe.

8

when she said he was a spy?

9

fact that she didn't testify on direct, but I want to make sure that

10

Is the witness representing that this occurred prior to
If so, then, you know, it would be a

this is stuff prior to the time that she made the allegation.

11

MJ:

Captain Overgaard, why don't you go ahead and capture that.

12

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes.

13

Q.

Please -- please limit your response to any information

14

that you had before you actually made the statement to Master

15

Sergeant Adkins that you thought he was a possible spy.

16

you actually considered when you made that statement to Master

17

Sergeant Adkins.

18

A.

So anything

It was really just the -- at that point just his emotional

19

responses and the things that -- that I had already testified about

20

that really just did not sit well -- sit well with me as someone

21

that, you know, could definitely be holding a security clearance.

22

I don't -- I don’t -- I'm not comfortable enough with my timeline

23

memory to be able to give you specific circumstances, but I -- I do

10795

So

14365

1
2
3
4

know that I was very confident in my feelings on the subject.
Q.

And so just -- a minute ago when you mentioned closed

session, what -- what’d you mean by that?
A.

In the Article 32 hearing the -- I did a telephonic

5

testimony.

6

in closed session and I'm assuming that meant that only pertinent

7

individuals needed to be present and the topic of allegiance was

8

covered within that section.

9
10

Q.

And I was told that that portion of the questioning was

In your cross you mentioned that -- that you had found a

camera that PFC Manning left?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

What did -- what did you do in response to that?

13

A.

In response; I investigated it ‘cause at that point I was

14

appointed by Lieutenant Fields to kind of assist her in being the

15

security manager of the SCIF.

16

and I went through its contents to -- to ensure that there was no

17

classified information on it, and then informed Chief Ehresman and

18

Lieutenant Fields that I had found the camera and allowed them to

19

investigate the pictures as well, just to act as witnesses.

So at that point, I found the camera

20

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: One moment, please.

21

[Pause]

22

Q.

And the -- you mentioned a Tweet as well in your cross?

23

A.

Yes.

10796

14366

1

Q.

When did you send that Tweet?

2

A.

I don't remember the exact timeframe.

3

August or September of last year.

4

MJ:

5

WIT: I apologize.

6

A.

I believe it was

I was ----

When you say last year you mean ---2012.

I had -- myself and my family had been receiving threats
And in the response out of just a last minute

7

from followers.

8

judgment call, I Tweeted that, and then immediately removed it from

9

the web because I felt as though it was probably not appropriate.

10

But somebody had taken a screenshot of it.

11

fear for myself and my family.

12

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Thank you.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

13
14
15

But I was acting out of

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I'm showing the witness what has been marked

16

Defense Exhibit VV for identification [handing the document to the

17

witness].

Ms. Showman if you’d look at that.

18

[The witness did as directed.]

19

Q.

Do you recognize that?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Is that the Tweet that you sent out?

22

A.

Yes.

23

10797

14367

1
2

Q.

So this is a Tweet apparently that you sent out.

And you

see the date on it?

3

A.

I do.

4

Q.

And that's what?

5

A.

12 September 2012.

6

Q.

So you say you sent this out in response to threats from

7

followers?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

And then -- and then that's what you sent out in response

10

to those threats?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

You’d agree with me that that's basically -- if that were

13

true, that that Tweet wouldn't exactly convince people not to

14

continue to threaten you?

15

A.

Um, I would -- I would -- seeing it and that's why I

16

initially pulled it off because I -- I had the understanding that if

17

people just knew the truth they wouldn't be so blatant about going

18

after myself or my family.

Or even --

19

Q.

But you referred to those same -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

20

A.

-- or even, you know, following I guess Manning in this --

21

in this manner.

So it -- I was actually -- I immediately removed it

22

because I definitely spoke out of true emotion.

23

- but these are my words.

10798

So it -- it -- yes -

14368

1

Q.

All right.

So you’d agree with me that referring to those

2

people, if they knew the truth, as ignorant people or ignorant

3

followers, that -- that's obviously not a good thing to do if people

4

are threatening you?

5

A.

I -- I -- I do understand that, and I agree with you.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving from the witness Exhibit VV

7

for identification [retrieving the document from the witness] and

8

offering into evidence as Defense Exhibit VV for identification as

9

Defense Exhibit VV.

10

MJ:

11

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No, ma'am, no objection.

12

MJ:

Defense Exhibit VV’s admitted.

13

Q.

You said for the camera incident where you found a camera

14

Any objection?

in the SCIF, you investigated it?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

And I take it you investigated it because having a camera

17

in a SCIF is a security violation?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And it's a security violation because people could maybe

20
21

taking pictures of classified information?
A.

Correct.

22
23

10799

14369

Q.

1

And so you felt it your duty at that point to investigate

2

that to ensure that there was no classified information on the

3

camera?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And you verified that there was none?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

And at that point then, because you investigated it, you --

8

you then reported that to, I think you said, Ehresman?

9

A.

Chief Ehresman and Lieutenant Fields.

10

Q.

And Lieutenant Fields?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And all that because of your duty of protecting classified

13

information?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

Can you see how then if you thought PFC Manning actually

16

said anti-American comments, disloyal comments, that you would have a

17

similar duty to protect classified information?

18

A.

I agree, yes.

19

Q.

Can you see how that might then result in you doing

20

something more than just going to Sergeant Adkins?
A.

21
22

I took it to the highest ranking individual in my office,

yes.

23

10800

14370

1
2

Q.

You could have taken it to, you know, the S-2, Major

Clausen at the time, right?

3

A.

He's not in my chain of command, sir.

4

Q.

All right.

5
6
7

Did you have an officer in your chain of

command?
A.

I was enlisted so therefore my chain of command were

enlisted Soldiers, sir.

8

Q.

Did you have an officer that supervised you?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

You had no officer that was in your chain, is that what

11

you’re trying to tell us?

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

None whatsoever?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

Okay.

16
17

So when you're referring to chain, I take it you're

referring to people who might rate you?
A.

Correct.

In a way of, I guess, explaining that for people

18

to understand.

Officers had their own kind of area.

And the NCOs

19

were to take care of the Soldiers.

20

the -- the NCOIC; the noncommissioned officer in charge, therefore

21

reported to the OIC; the officer in charge.

And the head NCO would report to

22

Q.

All right, now who was that officer in charge?

23

A.

Um ----

10801

14371

1

MJ:

When?

2

Q.

At the time of -- of this statement that's been allegedly -

A.

I truthfully do not remember his name.

3
4

--He -- he -- I do

5

know that he was the S-2 that initially deployed with us and,

6

therefore, was removed as an S-2 partially through deployment.

7

don't recall his name, though.

I

8

Q.

Does Major Clausen sound familiar?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

All right, so Major Clausen could have been somebody as the

11

Yes.

OIC that you went to report a security issue?

12

A.

That Sergeant Adkins would have gone to, yes.

13

Q.

No, I'm saying for you ----

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

---- Major Clausen could have been somebody you could have

16

reported to?

17

A.

18
19
20

If I wanted to step out of the line of chain of command,

yes, he would have been somebody that I could have gone to.
Q.

Then you said that there was an incident in which an NCO

made an allegation against PFC Manning?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And then you apparently got some information from PFC

23

Manning on that?

10802

14372

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And, you know, you were basically telling him that you

3

we’re not going to take the word of an NCO?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

And -- and that determination was based upon what?

6

A.

That -- I believed Manning’s side of the story.

And even -

7

- even if -- even if the NCO was true, I don't -- I don’t see how it

8

took away from -- from our mission whether -- whether Manning did

9

those things or not; did it affect the mission in the long run?

10

myself and Sergeant Adkins decided that it did not.

11

you know.

12
13

Q.

All right.

And

So, therefore --

So an NCO makes an allegation, PFC Manning

gives you some information, you choose to believe PFC Manning?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And then at that point you and, I guess, you said Sergeant

16

Adkins?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

Make the determination that you're not going to entertain

19
20
21

the allegation made by this NCO?
A.

Correct -- well, we weren't going to entertain his desired

outcome.

22

Q.

And that desired outcome was separation?

23

A.

Correct.

10803

14373

1

Q.

And at -- at least at that point -- and you might not have

2

known because of your rank, but at that point did you understand the

3

policy of “Don't Ask, Don't Tell?”

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Did you understand the duty of when there is an allegation

6

of conduct what the unit had to do?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

And did you guys investigate?

9

A.

I did not personally.

I don't know if Sergeant Adkins,

10

without informing me, if he did anything further.

11

knowledge, apart from speaking with that noncommissioned officer that

12

apparently witnessed him, that's all -- that's all that I know of.

13

Q.

But to my

And as far as being an intelligence analyst, are you aware

14

or not of a concern from a security standpoint if somebody is -- is

15

gay in the military?

16

A.

I'm not aware of homosexuals being a security risk.

17

Q.

So you're not aware through your training at all of

18

somebody having a lifestyle or whatnot that could subject them to

19

being blackmailed in order to keep that secret and therefore they

20

might become a security risk?

21

A.

Not to my knowledge.

22

Q.

No one has ever trained you on that?

23

A.

No, not to my knowledge.

10804

14374

1

Q.

So that wouldn't be one of the things that you're looking

2

for, somebody who might have a secret that they want to keep, and

3

could be subject to blackmail and then forced to give information to

4

hide that secret?

5
6
7

A.

Not -- not under the context of homosexuality.

But that's

also not a determination for someone of my rank to make.
Q.

Okay.

So when you're -- when you’re thinking about all the

8

-- the things in your mind that might get you to believe he's a

9

potential spy, I mean, his emotional reactions, his problems with --

10

with you, any sort of potential blackmail against him to hide a

11

secret wouldn't be one of the factors that you thought of?

12
13
14
15

A.

I honestly never thought that someone would blackmail him

for his sexuality.
Q.

Okay.

And you indicated that you only had NCOs in your

chain?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

First Sergeant was one of those people then I guess?

18

A.

Beyond Sergeant Adkins, correct.

19

Q.

And so did you ever go to the First Sergeant to talk about

20

the alleged allegation against my client?

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

Why not?

23

A.

I felt it was inappropriate.

10805

14375

1

Q.

Why?

2

A.

Because I had gone to my appropriate chain of command, and

3

they informed me they would handle it, and that is all I'm obligated

4

to do.

5

Q.

That's all you thought you’re obligated to do?

6

A.

That is what I felt was appropriate to do, yes.

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

8

MJ:

11
12

No further questions.

Any final redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

9
10

All right.

Questions by the assistant trial Counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

Could you tell us why you reported the camera incident to

Lieutenant Fields and Chief Ehresman?

13

A.

Cameras in the SCIF could be a ----

14

Q.

I mean them versus somebody else.

15

A.

Oh, Lieutenant Fields was the security manager and Chief

16

Ehresman was the FUSION N -- OIC.

They were both -- so Chief

17

Ehresman was in charge of the FUSION cell, which that's where we

18

worked, and Lieutenant Fields was the security manager at the time.

19

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: All right.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Just one follow-up on that then.

21

Thank you.

[END OF PAGE]

22
23

10806

14376

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

1
2

Questions by the civilian defense Counsel [MR. COOMBS]:

3

Q.

Did you have a security manager when you were in garrison?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Who was that?

6

A.

For the majority of the time I believe it was Chief

7
8
9
10
11

Balonek; at that time Staff Sergeant Balonek.
Q.

Okay, so you recognized a security issue with PFC Manning

of having no loyalty to the flag or the country, did you go report
that to that security manager, Chief Balonek?
A.

I -- from what -- from my memory on the timeline, I do not

12

believe he was actually at Fort Drum at that time.

I believe -- I

13

believe that Lieutenant Fields was coming into the shop and was take

14

-- beginning to take over as a security manager at that time ----

15

Q.

All right.

16

A.

---- because they had a hand off.

17

Q.

Did you report it to Lieutenant Fields?

18

A.

No, that would have been inappropriate for me to go to my

19
20

officer in my office without -- without discussing it with my NCOs.
Q.

Okay.

So then I take it from that then for the camera

21

incident before you went to Lieutenant Fields you must have discussed

22

it with your NCO?

23

10807

14377

1

A.

I -- at that time actually I did not have an NCO chain of

2

command.

3

-- there was an NCOIC over the shop, and that was Sergeant Adkins,

4

and he actually was not in -- in the fusion cell at that time.

5

went to the security manager because there was actual -- an active

6

security risk in the SCIF, which was a camera.

7
8
9
10

Q.

There was an OIC.

I worked directly for Chief Hack.

And I

So I

All right, so whether or not you report it to the secure

manager in your mind is whether or not it's appropriate or not?
A.

I took it to the appropriate chain of command, so I did the

appropriate thing.

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay.

12

MJ:

13

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No, ma'am.

14

MJ:

15

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Temporary, ma’am.

Any true final redirect?

Temporary or permanent?

16

[The witness was temporarily excused, duly warned, and withdrew from

17

the courtroom.]

18

TC[MAJ FEIN]: Can we have a moment, Your Honor?

19

MJ: Yes.

20

[Pause]

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]: Sorry, Your Honor.

22

MJ: I'm sorry.

23

10808

14378

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]: Thank you, Your Honor.

Looking at the time, the

2

United States recommends -- other than I can answer the Court's

3

question from before, but after that that we go on lunch recess and

4

then come back and continue.

5

MJ:

Does the Government have further rebuttal?

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the United States would like to

7

discuss that over lunch during the recess.

8

recess to do that.

9

testimony there might be.

10

MJ:

Okay.

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

We don't need an extended

Otherwise it was not planned, but based off that

Why don't you answer my question first on the 641?
Yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma’am.

Your Honor, looking at

12

the evidence, the bottom line is the United States does agree that

13

the CIDNE database -- the entire CIDNE database did contain other

14

types of records.

15

of Expected testimony of Mr. Patrick Hoeffel, Paragraph 8, Mr.

16

Hoeffel testified it is a structured collection of data with over 100

17

different types of reports including SIGACTs.

18

other testimony that SIGACTs took up about 24 percent of the actual

19

CIDNE database.

20

MJ:

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

22

Prosecution Exhibit 116, which is the Stipulation

And then there was

Twenty-four percent?
Yes, ma'am.

And that was Mr. Bora’s testimony --

the 24 percent.

23

10809

14379

1

MJ:

All right.

That being the case, what is the government's

2

position with respect to the defense R.C.M 917 motions?

3

alter it in any way?

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Does that

Your Honor -- Your Honor, the United States would

5

say it doesn't affect for 917 purposes because any evidence of a

6

subportion is evidence of a greater of the database.

7

that being said, it is clear that the government did not present

8

evidence that the entire CIDNE database was compromised, it's only

9

approximately 24 percent at that time when it was stolen.

10
11
12
13

MJ:

However, with

So what is the government's position with respect to what

the court should do in the 917 motion?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

The United States would argue that

the 917 motion should be denied in -- in full.

14

MJ:

And the specifications should remain as is?

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

16

MJ:

Yes, ma'am, for 917 purposes.

Well, if you presented no evidence that the entire database

17

was stolen; that's what you're alleging in Specifications 5 and 7, I

18

mean 4 and 6, excuse me -- I believe those were the specifications at

19

issue.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

That’s correct.

Yes, ma'am.

Ma'am, the government, through its

22

briefs, have provided evidence that a sub -- proving the subportion

23

is evidence of a greater portion, but, again -- to make this easier,

10810

14380

1

Your Honor, for 917, the United States would then recommend the court

2

would -- would find by exceptions and substitutions for 917 purposes

3

because that is what the government will argue eventually anyways.

4

MJ:

And find by exceptions and substitutions what?

5

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, Your Honor.

There are multiple manners

6

where the trier-of-fact can find then specifically now that you in

7

your -- with your hat as the Court.
First, Your Honor, looking at Specification --

8
9

Specification 4 as the example, the United States has in its

10

specification a record a thing of value of the United States or of a

11

Department or Agency thereof, to wit.

12

Combined Information Data Network Exchange in Iraq containing more

13

than 380,000 records.

14

portion of the Combined Information Data Network Exchange containing

15

380,000 records because that would be a sub of the whole or part of

16

the whole.

17

database was stolen and a sub or a portion of it falls within that as

18

a minor variance.

19
20
21

MJ:

It currently states that the

An exception and substitution should be a

Therefore, there's adequate notice that the entire

All right, assume I do that for evaluation purposes, what’s

the government’s position?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, the government's position for

22

valuation purposes is that the United States would then be arguing in

23

-- for 914 purposes -- 917 purposes is arguing now that the -- when

10811

14381

1

it comes to -- well, there's two ways, of course, the Government is

2

offering evidence to prove valuation, it’s either through the

3

development of maintenance costs, and then there’s also the valuation

4

of the information contained within.

5

maintenance costs it would be a pro rata share.

6

had is that approximately 24 percent of the CIDNE database contained

7

the SIGACTs, and so that would be what the United States would be

8

arguing is that percent of the total of the maintenance and

9

development costs to maintain the information in exclusive possession

So for the development of
The testimony we’ve

10

of the government would go to that.

11

intelligence service, based off the testimony of Mr. Lewis, it was

12

based off the actual information he looked at.

13

necessarily change the specification because he reviewed a few

14

documents -- the charged documents, and that was definitely less than

15

380,000 or the -- for Specification 6, the lesser number -- the

16

90,000 records.

17

MJ:

All right.

For the cost to a foreign

So that would not

And, finally, with the development and

18

maintenance costs that the government is relying upon, is there any

19

case that you're aware of that has allowed that as a method of

20

evaluation for electronic data?

21
22
23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Not necessarily for the development costs, ma'am,

but the operation costs to protect the information, yes.
MJ:

Okay.

And what would that be?

10812

14382

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

2

MJ:

3

All right, May -- May is the airline -- airline case,

right?

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

MJ:

6
7
8
9

Zettl and May, ma'am?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay, so that didn't involve electronic data.

That

involved something else, right?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

It involved other information.

Walter is the database case.
MJ:

And what did that rely on for valuation?

10

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

11

costs, Your Honor.

12

presented for all of 641 offenses, the -- the costs for personnel --

13

the personnel time.

14

be prorated out.

15

GS salaries and Soldiers' salary.

16

MJ:

Okay.

One -- one of the major factors was personnel
And that is the evidence that the government has

Of course, it will be -- the argument, it would

But the Court’s taken judicial notice of different

Thank you.

Defense, in light of the 24 percent

17

information what -- I understand your general argument, but does that

18

change your position in any way?

19

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Yes, because I think at this point what the

20

government is trying to do is avoid asking for a variance under 603

21

and have you skip past the 917 motion.

22

this point to do a variance to the charge sheet.

23

MJ:

I think they have to ask at

A change to the Charge Sheet you mean?

10813

And ----

14383

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Yes -- excuse me, yes, a change to the

2

Charge Sheet.

3

portion of, would be a major amendment.

4

of the charged item.

5

MJ:

And our opinion then the change that they propose, the
It would change the identity

And that's based on your view that it's a stealing of a

6

database without records?

7

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Right.

And -- and so that would be our

8

position; that first they would have to articulate that they --

9

they're asking this court to make an amendment to the Charge Sheet.

10

MJ:

So is it the defense's position that should I find that --

11

well, -- although it would be inappropriate for the court to find

12

that it's a lesser included offense?

13

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

14

MJ:

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

16

[Pause]

17

MJ:

18
19

Yes.

Because of the theft of the database?
Yes, Your Honor.

All, right, government, you've heard the defense position.

Does the Government want to propose a change?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

The United States would propose a

20

change; that is a minor change after arraignment under 603(c).

21

accused was on notice of the greater -- the greater -- the whole --

22

the entire database; this is just a portion or part of the database.

23

MJ:

That would be for Specifications 4 and 6?

10814

The

14384

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

1
2

and 6.

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

[Pause]

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

Your Honor, that would be for Specifications 4

Of Charge II.
Of Charge II.

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

Also for Specification 16, Your Honor, of the

GAL.

8

[Pause]

9

MJ:

All right.

What are the minor changes that you propose --

10

or the allegedly minor changes that you propose for those three

11

specifications?

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma'am, it's a -- the same minor change the United

13

States offers -- or argues as minor for all of it.

14

portion of" for Specification 4, 6 and 16 of Charge II.

15

MJ:

16

[Pause]

17

MJ:

18

"A portion of."

So, "to wit: a

Let me pull the specifications.

So it would be after "to wit: a portion of the Combined

Information Data Network Exchange-Iraq database."

19

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

20

MJ:

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

All right.

Yes, ma'am.
And ---Then the same for Specification 6, “to wit:, a

22

portion of the Combined Information Data Network Exchange-

23

Afghanistan.”

10815

14385

1
2
3

MJ:

Well, for Specification 16 of Charge II, then what's the

government's position on what the evidence has shown?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

Chief Nixon testified about, first,

4

how the Global Address Lists are populated and -- and what it means

5

to have the Global Address List at that time in Iraq.

6

three -- four-star headquarters, and he testified that although there

7

was approximately 160,000 users in the active directory that

8

populated GAL, the information was populated from the brigade's

9

higher.

He was at the

So as they put their information onto their GAL, it

10

continued going -- populated up and out.

11

shows, Your Honor, is that the -- when he testified that -- or excuse

12

me, Special Agent Williamson testified through a Stipulation of

13

Expected Testimony that he recovered approximately 76,000 different

14

e-mail and other -- e-mail addresses and names with office and other

15

identifying information in total from Private First Class Manning --

16

or -- excuse me, from Sergeant Bigelow's work computer.

17

extracts of that were found by Mr. Johnson on Private First Class

18

Manning's personal Macintosh computer.

19
20

And then

So based off that, Your Honor, and Chief Nixon's review of
-- I can find the PE number as well -- the extracts.

21

[Pause]

22

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

23

And so what that testimony

Based off Chief Nixon's review of Prosecution

Exhibits 47 and 48, which were both the CDs containing the files of

10816

14386

1

all the names and e-mail -- the two different files, and then

2

specifically, in court, he referenced -- he testified about 147 Alpha

3

and 147 Bravo, 148 Alpha, 148 Bravo.

4

were extracts from those original evidence.

5

think it’s the first 10 pages, on how that is the information from

6

the master Global Address List for the USFI Global Address List.

7

MJ:

8

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

MJ:

10

Each of those 147s and the 148s
And then he testified, I

And who testified as to this; Nixon?
Chief Warrant Officer Four Nixon, Your Honor.

Okay.

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

And in his testimony he explained how the lowest

11

level that a Global Address List is created, a user accounts at the

12

brigade level, and at the brigade it feeds up to the Division,

13

Division feeds up to the higher headquarters.

14
15
16
17
18

MJ:

So is the Government then in their proposed change to

Specification 16, are you charging only the 76,000?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am, because that's all that was actually

found.
MJ:

All right.

Maybe I'm confused.

I thought the government

19

theory earlier was there may be deletion or something like that and

20

there was more.

21

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

The confusion there is we're talking

22

about two different computer systems to show how a transfer did occur

23

off the U.S. Government computers.

10817

The -- Special Agent ----

14387

1

MJ:

Let's make this easy.

2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

MJ:

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7

[Pause]

8

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

9

[Pause]

Yes, ma’am.

How many addresses are you alleging was stolen -76,000, Your Honor ----

---- in Specification 16?

10

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

11

MJ:

12

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

---- and I’ll give you to the PE.

I’m sorry, Your Honor, I’m still scanning.

Ma'am, Prosecution Exhibit 143.

Is what?
Is the Stipulation of Expected Testimony of
And in his Stipulation of

13

Special Agent Williamson from CCIU.

14

Expected Testimony, he explains exactly how many e-mails -- the two

15

large text files called blaw.txt that were recovered from that

16

computer and -- and -- I apologize, Your Honor, I should have read

17

this first -- 74,000 was the exact testimony on this Stipulation of

18

Expected Testimony is -- 74,000 exchange formatted e-mail addresses,

19

and then their associated names in a separate file.

20
21
22
23

MJ:

So what is the proposed change that the government wants to

make to Specification 16 of Charge II?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

The United States proposes, Your

Honor, that the -- the minor change would be after “to wit a portion

10818

14388

1

of” and then “the United States forces Iraq Microsoft Outlook

2

SharePoint exchange global server address list containing” ----

3

MJ:

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

MJ:

6

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

7
8
9
10

Hold on.
Yes, ma'am.

All right, “to wit: a portion of”.

Anything else?

No, ma'am, actually just “a portion” would be the

same as 4 and 6 -- Specifications 4 and 6.
MJ:

All right.

Defense, I assume your objection is the same as

for the others?
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Additional matters, ma'am.

So we would

11

object now that they're asking for an amendment, that it is a major

12

amendment and looking at 603, it indicates that a major amendment is

13

essentially anything that adds a party -- offense.

14

important is, it has then two “or's”; “or” a substantial matter not

15

fairly included in the previous preferred charge.

16

"or”; “or” which are likely to mislead the accused as to the offenses

17

charged.

18

Our position is that it clearly fits in the last one, which is a

19

matter which is likely to mislead the accused on the offenses

20

charged.

21

witnesses on this new pro rata -- pro rata -- pro rata theory that

22

the Government now is -- is asking the Court to use for valuation.

23

All the evidence introduced from all the witnesses was on the

And then, what's

And then another

So if it fits in any of those three it's a major amendment.

We did not get an opportunity to cross-examine any of the

10819

14389

1

evaluation of the whole database.

Importantly, no court has allowed

2

a pro rata basis for evaluation.

And the case the court should look

3

to is the Wilson court.

4

rifles, and the idea was use a pro rata value of a $1.39 in order to

5

get to the $100.00.

6

not -- that’s purely speculative.

7
8
9

MJ:

Because in the Wilson court you had 100

And the court said there that is not -- that is
That’s not a basis.

Well, Wilson offered no evidence of valuation at all,

right?
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Wilson -- no -- and that's correct.

They

10

relied essentially on trying to say that we'll just look at what it

11

is and you just -- in order to get over the $100.00 threshold, it's

12

just $1.39.

13

have been 70.

14

a --a case that would support the idea that any sort of pro rata

15

portion in order to come to a valuation is an inappropriate manner in

16

order to conclude what a particular item is worth.

17

to testify what the item is worth.

So it’s actually less than 100 rifles.

I think it might

But the defense’s position would be that that would be

You need somebody

Additionally, we have testimony with -- certainly with

18
19

regards to CIDNE, but I think this would apply to the GAL as well,

20

you have a database that has unlimited capability.

21

being added to.

22

-- there is no testimony to indicate that there was a capacity level

23

for this.

It's constantly

It's constantly growing, changing, evolving.

There

So to -- to do a snapshot in time of how much it cost to

10820

14390

1

create the database or maintain the database is purely speculative

2

with relation to then -- if you're going to use a pro rata, to then

3

say okay, let's use 24 percent.

Well, at what point in time are you

4

going to make that calculation?

When they first created the

5

database?

6

as to the value of the database at the time that he took the items --

7

or at some later point.

8

do the so-called pro rata portion.

9

Nixon, he testified that if this was anything it was the Division GAL

Right when he took the items -- because we had no evidence

You know -- so there really is no ability to
The defense's position on Chief

10

-- is what he thought -- or a portion thereof.

11

obviously can go back to the record in determining this motion as to

12

what Chief Nixon actually testified to.

13

be that this would be a major amendment.

14

MJ:

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

16

MJ:

17

You know, the Court

So our first position would
Now based upon ----

Now, let me ask you a question.
Yes, Your Honor.

Should the Court find that the charged charges; the theft

of the database as well as the records, what the defense's position?

18

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Well, again the ----

19

MJ:

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Okay.

Because it's a subset of the records basically.
So if the Court does that -- I think you

21

still have all the problems we addressed yesterday with valuation and

22

--

23

MJ:

I understand that.

10821

14391

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: -- and whatnot.

But then we would fall back

2

under R.C.M. 915, Your Honor.

We would say that -- we would request

3

under R.C.M. 915, that the Court declare a mistrial with regards to

4

these specifications.

5

MJ:

Why?

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Under R.C.M 915, a mistrial would be

7

appropriate granted that it is a -- a remedy that should be used with

8

great caution, but it is appropriate when substantial doubt upon the

9

fairness of the proceedings has resulted.

And a mistrial may, as the

10

rule says, be declared as some or all of the charges.

In this

11

instance here, what we have is we have a government who has charged

12

something clearly.

13

again, what it is; the database, has maintained that in the way

14

they've proven the case, has then done 31 pages of inconsistent FS

15

motions on their theory or how they're proving something, and then

16

now at a very late date has gone, you know what, let's make some

17

changes because, yeah, we didn't charge it right.

18

looking back at all the evidence to try to piece together or

19

piecemeal together a -- one, what did you charge?

20

the value?

21

value, we didn't have an opportunity to cross-examine on that at all.

22

So at this point the mess that's been created is -- is because of the

23

individuals sitting at the trial counsel table.

Has -- in their bill of particulars, has alleged,

And we now are

Two, did you prove

And if pro rata was their way of trying to prove this

10822

And my client

14392

1

shouldn't pay for that.

2

motion, this Court should grant now our request under R.C.M. 915 to

3

declare a mistrial with regards to these specifications -- the 641

4

specifications.

5

MJ:

All right.

Instead, if this Court doesn't grant the 917

Well, the Court will take all of these issues

6

under advisement when doing the omnibus ruling on the variety of

7

issues that have been raised with respect to the R.C. -- the 641

8

specifications.

9

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

10

MJ:

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma’am, if possible just a factual clarification?

Yes.
The defense alleged that they did not have an

12

opportunity to question witnesses about the pro rata share.

13

every witness that essentially took the stand starting with Chief

14

Nixon, the questions were directly at how much of the energy goes

15

into the system that is directly to the GAL to the rest of the active

16

directory functions.

17

elicited.

18

as well -- how much went into actually CIDNE versus -- or SIGACTS

19

versus other aspects of CIDNE.

20

MJ:

Actually

That -- that line of questioning was actually

And -- and that is the same for all the other individuals

All right.

The court will examine the evidence. I believe

21

before, the government, you asked for a recess or a lunch break about

22

-- about that time?

23

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Yes, ma'am.

Just a standard lunch break, and

10823

14393

1

then we can make a final decision about the closing rebuttal case,

2

Your Honor.

3

MJ:

All right.

1330?

4

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

5

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Yes, ma'am.

6

MJ:

Yes, ma'am.

All right, Court is in recess until 1330.

7

[The court-martial recessed at 1216, 19 July 2013.]

8

[The court-martial was called to order at 1337, 19 July 2013.]
MJ:

9

Court is called to order.

Let the record reflect all

10

parties present with the Court last recessed are again present in the

11

court.

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

12
13

Major Fein?
Ma'am, the United States does not have any

further evidence to offer in rebuttal.

14

MJ:

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: Yes, Your Honor.

16

All right.

Do we have a surrebuttal case?
First we would have a

judicial notice request.
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Ma’am, yesterday the government offered as

17
18

Prosecution Exhibit, I believe it's, 194 Charlie, a Tweet from

19

WikiLeaks.

20

and Icelantic Surveillance Operation

21

following/photographing/filming/detaining.

22

that.

23

feel that actually rebuts the idea that WikiLeaks is a legitimate

It reads WikiLeaks is currently under an aggressive U.S.

The defense objected to

We didn't believe it was proper rebuttal because we didn’t

10824

14394

1

journalistic organization.

2

think this has any bearing whether on whether or not WikiLeaks is a

3

journalistic organization, but I guess we're presuming that -- what

4

the government would argue or the connection they would try to make

5

would be that if -- because WikiLeaks is under surv --

6

by the United States they are not a legitimate journalistic

7

organization.

8

for identification, which are three records pulled from the FBI

9

records vault -- three records pulled by -- pulled by the defense

10

from the FBI records vault -- official records from the FBI where

11

they outline basically that they kept records of Mike Wallace, Ernest

12

Hemingway, as well as Paul Harvey.

13

these individuals as journalists, and so we would offer this to rebut

14

the ideas -- I guess our position is, clearly the United States does

15

to investigations or surveillance on people who are legitimate

16

members of the media and journalists, and so the idea that one isn't

17

a legitimate journalist because they are surveilled would be rebutted

18

by and this.

19
20
21

MJ:

The Court overruled that. We still don't

surveillance

To rebut that we have Defense Exhibit Whiskey Whiskey

In the descriptions they refer to

I thought that the relevance was that it was on PFC

Manning's computer and what PFC Manning thought about WikiLeaks?
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Our understanding was that it offered to rebut

22

the idea that WikiLeaks is a journalistic organization -- is our

23

understanding of why the government offered these Tweets.

10825

14395

1

MJ:

Government, why did you offer the Tweets?

2

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Ma'am, the United States offered the Tweets for

3

actually both -- well, not both the reasons, but it's what PFC

4

Manning knew or would have known at the time because it was on his

5

computer.

6

PFC Manning went to the FBI website and viewed this information.

7

There’s no evidence that any of these three members -- or these three

8

individuals were on his computer -- the information about them.

9

it's about what PFC Manning knew at the time of the commission of the

So this is not relevant because there's no evidence that

So

10

offenses.

And because the information offered was found on his

11

computer is a permissible inference to say that that he would have

12

known that information.

13

MJ:

14

[The Assistant Defense Counsel[CPT Tooman] handed the document

15
16

Well, Captain Tooman, let me see the exhibits.

to the Military Judge.]
ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: And, ma’am, we didn't include the actual

17

records.

They were fairly voluminous; hundreds of pages in some

18

cases.

19

mind, is what rebuts the government's contention that WikiLeaks isn't

20

a legitimate journalistic organization.

So for our purposes the fact that the records exist, in our

21

MJ:

22

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

23

Well, does the government have any objection to this?
Well, the objection is relevance, Your Honor.

The Court taking judicial notice of facts that are not at least

10826

14396

1

related to an element of the offense -- it's not relevant.

2

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: I guess, Your Honor ----

3

MJ:

4

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]: Our belief is that the government is -- is

It really isn't relevant.

5

offering this Tweet as proof that WikiLeaks either was or was not a

6

legitimate journalistic organization.

7

them to articulate how this Tweet -- the substance of this Tweet

8

could inform that decision.

9

out whether or not WikiLeaks is a legitimate journalistic

And I guess we would ask for

And if they're -- when we're figuring

10

organization or not, the government has offered this Tweet to say

11

that this is proof that they're not a legitimate journalistic

12

organization.

13

that these -- that these documents ----

14
15
16

MJ:

If they're not doing that then we wouldn't request

Well, you said -- you said you're offering for both

purposes, is that correct?
TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, by both, Your Honor, I mean, it-- it's

17

ultimately what PFC Manning knew at the time.

18

to show that PFC Manning, by the greater weight of the evidence,

19

would have known that WikiLeaks was not a legitimate news

20

organization based off the evidence that was in front of him.

21

MJ:

So we are offering it

But are you also offering it to rebut Professor Benkler's

22

testimony that in actuality is a legitimate or was at the time a

23

legitimate news organization --

10827

14397

1

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

2

MJ:

3

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Well, ma'am, we've always contested ----

---- fourth estate?
---- essentially, ma'am, it’s always -- it’s in
And that's what we view and

4

the hands or the eyes of PFC Manning.

5

contested Professor Benkler's relevance from the get-go; it's only

6

what PFC Manning knew or didn't know.

7

his knowledge.

8

to say it’s all about what he did or didn't know, and the evidence

9

has to relate back to him.

Whether it was or wasn't, it's

So the government’s been consistent with entire time

10

MJ:

11

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

12

MJ:

So, no.

So asking my question again.
Yes, ma’am.

I asked you the first time and you said it was for both

13

reasons; to rebut the fact that it is or isn't a journal -- a

14

legitimate news organization.

15

TC[MAJ FEIN]:

Your Honor, we’re -- and the reason I said both -

16

- I apologize -- is because it's -- it’s a hybrid of the two.

17

offering it to show that PFC Manning knew it was not a legitimate

18

news organization, not in general it was or was not.

19

Manning's knowledge of it.

20

MJ:

21

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]:

22
23

It's PFC

Is this the only exhibit?
There should be three records.

three records there.
MJ:

We're

Oh, they’re three records in this exhibit?

10828

There are

14398

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]:

1
2

I guess in response to the

government ---MJ:

3
4

Yes, ma'am.

Well, rather than prolong this, I'll go ahead and admit it.

Go ahead.

5

ADC[CPT TOOMAN]:

Thank you, Your Honor.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Your Honor, the defense calls CW2 Kyle

7

Balonek back to the stand.

8

CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER TWO KYLE BALONEK, U.S. Army, was recalled as a

9

witness for the defense, was reminded of his previous oath, and

10

testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

11
12

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR.COOMBS]:
Q.

13

Just to refresh your memory on -- on your position at the

14

time of the deployment, right before the deployment what was your

15

rank?

16

A.

I was a staff sergeant.

17

Q.

And with regards to -- in the garrison, what was your

18

position?

19

A.

I was the personnel security manager.

20

Q.

Now, in garrison did PFC Manning ever make any disloyal

21

comments to you?

22

A.

No, sir.

23

Q.

Within your section, who did PFC Manning report to?

10829

14399

1

A.

Reported to Specialist Showman, sir.

2

Q.

And who did Specialist Showman report to?

3

A.

At that time it was Sergeant Mitchell.

4

Q.

And then who did Sergeant Mitchell report to?

5

A.

Either before I went to Master Analyst it was Platoon

6

Sergeant Adkins -- while I was at Master Analyst it was Sergeant

7

Adkins.

8

Q.

9
10

Normally it would have been myself.
Now while in garrison, did Specialist Showman ever report

through the chain of command that she believed that PFC Manning made
disloyal comments?

11

A.

Not to my knowledge, sir.

12

Q.

While in garrison, did you ever hear any allegation that

13

PFC Manning made disloyal comments?

14

A.

I did not, sir.

15

Q.

Would this be something that would you expect to hear if it

16

involved one of your Soldiers?

17

A.

I would, sir.

18

Q.

And why is that?

19

A.

It goes -- it really goes against the oath of enlistment;

20
21

bearing true faith and allegiance to the United States.
Q.

And if something like this did happen, as a noncommissioned

22

officer at the time, would you expect to see it in a counseling

23

statement?

10830

14400

1

A.

I would, sir.

2

Q.

And why is that?

3

A.

It's seems to be something that needs to be addressed

4
5

through some sort of counseling, whether it be written or verbal.
Q.

And when you're deciding on written or verbal, as a

6

noncommissioned officer, is there a difference in your mind as to

7

some things you might do verbal and some things you might actually

8

reduce to writing?

9

A.

There can be, yes, sir.

10

Q.

And generally what are the types of things you’d reduce to

11
12

writing?
A.

Mainly bigger things like if you're consistently late or

13

if, I mean, there's patterns of misconduct that need to be addressed

14

or written -- or like smaller things, like maybe one time late or

15

missing a formation can be addressed through verbally, sir.

16
17

Q.

And the idea -- have you ever heard of the phrase, if it's

not in writing it didn't happen?

18

A.

I have, sir.

19

Q.

What does that mean to you?

20

A.

If you're trying to prove say a pattern of misconduct

21

against a Soldier, if there's no supporting documentation, i.e., a

22

counseling statement, then there's nothing really that can be gone

23

off of.

10831

14401

1

Q.

And from a analyst standpoint, would disloyal comments to

2

America be something small that you just handle verbally or something

3

big that you would want to have in writing?

4

A.

I would find it to be something that I'd want it in

5

writing, sir.

6

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

7

MJ:

No further questions.

Cross?
CROSS-EXAMINATION

8
9

Thank you.

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:

10

Q.

Chief Balonek, you worked with Ms. Showman in garrison?

11

A.

Yes, ma’am.

12

Q.

And when was that?

13

A.

From the time she got there, I guess, maybe 2008/2009 to

14

when I left in 2010.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

During -- I left during to go to attend WOCS.

17

Q.

And how often did you and Ms. Showman interact?

18

A.

Maybe a daily basis, but interaction may have been more

19

And that was after the deployment?

than just saying hello or how was your day.

20

Q.

Was that the same in garrison as it was in theater?

21

A.

A little difference in theater; we interacted on a FUSION

22

to targeting basis, but it wasn’t -- it varied, ma'am.

23

10832

14402

1
2

Q.

And -- and based on that relationship, did you have an

opinion about whether or not Ms. Showman is truthful?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And what is that opinion?

5

A.

I found her -- I found her truthful.

6

She never gave a

reason not to trust her.

7

Q.

Would you believe her if she testified under oath?

8

A.

I would, ma'am.

9

Q.

And did she have a reputation for truthfulness or

10

untruthfulness in 2/10 during that time?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

So -- which one?

13

A.

For truth.

14

Q.

Oh, okay.

15

Never mind.

I’m sorry.

So do you know what the

reputation was?

16

A.

It was for truthfulness, ma'am.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

Course.

19

A.

It was from July of '09 to September of '09, ma'am.

20

Q.

So you weren't around in August 2010?

21

A.

I was not.

22

Q.

And then a few weeks after you returned in September of

23

And you said that you're at the Master Analyst

When was that?

I was in Fort Huachuca.

2010, you deployed with the rest of 2/10?

10833

14403

1

A.

Yes, ma'am.

2

Q.

So you barely had time to pack?

3

A.

That's about right, ma'am, yes.

4

Q.

And you said you would have expected to hear about the --

5

I’m sorry, I said 2010.

6

2009.

7

A.

Yes, ma'am.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

I meant 2009.

I confused you too.

So it was August of 2009 that

you were gone?

10

A.

That's correct.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

That was correct, right --

And you were at Master Analyst Course from July to

August of 2009?

13

A.

Yes, ma'am.

14

Q.

And you said you would have expected to hear about this

15

statement, but you actually weren't around at that time?

16

A.

That's true.

17

Q.

And you would have expected Ms. Showman to bring it to

18

Staff Sergeant Mitchell, who was her immediate supervisor?

19

A.

Yes, ma'am.

20

Q.

And then Master Sergeant Adkins in your absence?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

And you don't know whether or not Ms. Showman brought this

23

statement to Staff Sergeant Mitchell?

10834

14404

1

A.

I really -- I really don’t.

2

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Okay.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

3
4
5
6

Thank you.

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

With regards to the -- let’s -- the opinion and reputation

testimony, the opinion testimony, what are you basing that on?

7

A.

Just my own judgment, sir.

8

Q.

And I wanted to get an idea of that just because sometimes

9
10

people have an opinion on truthfulness and it's because they've known
the person for a long time or they deal with them ----

11

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Objection, leading.

12

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

13

MJ:

14

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

15

MJ:

Go ahead.

16

Q.

And so they’ve known the person for a long time or they

I don’t believe I’m leading.

You're giving just examples.
Yes, ma'am.

17

deal with them like hours on end a day and that person tells them a

18

lot of different things and they’ve seen the through a pattern that

19

they’re truthful. So I wanted to get an idea from you which of --

20

which of those ----

21

MJ:

Well, not which of those.

22

Q.

---- or which of those, if any, or some other one, is what

23

you base the opinion of truthfulness on?

10835

14405

1

A.

Sir, I base the opinion on the fact that when a -- if a

2

person does not give me a reason not to trust them, I find them

3

trustworthy, sir.

4
5
6

Q.

Okay.

So how -- you said you had some contact with her.

How much contact would you have with her on a daily basis?
A.

It varied on how the reporting was coming in, sir, what

7

targeting needed from fusion or what fusion may have needed from

8

targeting.

9

not at all.

10
11

Q.

It could have once or twice a day.

It could have been

And based upon that contact, I guess, did you feel that you

got to know her well?

12

A.

Well enough as a coworker, yes.

13

Q.

Would you consider her a friend?

14

A.

I would not, sir.

15

Q.

And if someone just asked you to describe her as somebody

16

that you know very well or somebody that you just know of or, I

17

guess, any variation, how would you describe her?

18

A.

Would you restate the question, sir?

19

Q.

Right.

If someone asked you is she -- is she somebody that

20

you know very, very well, or is she somebody that is just as an

21

acquaintance that you see only at work or is she somewhere in the

22

middle, how would you describe her?

23

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Objection, leading.

10836

14406

1

MJ:

Overruled.

2

A.

Maybe somewhere in the middle, sir.

3

Q.

Okay.

And then the -- the opinion testimony, you were

4

asked about an opinion -- I gra -- I guess that's an opinion within

5

the unit?

6

A.

I was basing on my opinion, sir.

7

Q.

I'm sorry, reputation.

8

I'm confused.

The reputation

testimony; you said she has a reputation for being truthful?

9

A.

I mean, I was speaking how I saw it, sir.

10

Q.

So with regards to reputation, that's not a reputation in

11

the unit that you're aware of?

12

A.

I can't speak for the unit, sir.

13

Q.

Do you know of any reputation like when -- when someone

14

says that person has a reputation for X or for Y, did -- did then

15

Specialist Showman have a reputation that you were aware of?

16

A.

Not that I know of, sir.

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

18

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No further questions, ma'am.

19

MJ:

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Okay.

Temporary or permanent excusal?

Temporary still?

Temporary, ma’am.

21

[The witness was temporarily excused, reminded of his previous

22

warning, and withdrew from the courtroom.]

23

10837

14407

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Your Honor, the defense calls Mr. Paul

2

Adkins to the stand.

3

PAUL ATKINS, civilian, was called as a witness for the defense, was

4

sworn, and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

5
6

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:

7

Q.

And you are Mr. Paul Adkins of Watertown, New York?

8

A.

I am.

9
10
11

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

Now, Mr. Adkins, you used to be in the military, is that

correct?

12

A.

Yes, sir.

13

Q.

And when did you retire?

14

A.

Twenty-eight February 2013.

15

Q.

And how long were you in the military?

16

A.

Over 21 years.

17

Q.

At the time when you retired what was your rank?

18

A.

Sergeant First Class.

19

Q.

In the 2008 through 2010 timeframe, so just those two

20

years, were you the NCOIC for the S-2 section of 2nd BCT of 10th

21

Mountain Division?

22

A.

Yes, sir.

23

10838

14408

1
2

Q.

And as the NCOIC, were you responsible for supervision of

all enlisted Soldiers in the S-2 section?

3

A.

Yes, sir.

4

Q.

And was one of those Soldiers PFC Manning?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And was another one of those Specialist Showman?

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

While in garrison did PFC Manning ever make any statements

9

to you that indicated that he had a lack of loyalty to the United

10

States?

11

A.

I don't recall him saying so.

12

Q.

And when you say you don't recall, are you saying you don't

13

remember or you don't believe that happened?

14

A.

I don't remember, sir.

15

Q.

Is that something you think you would remember?

16

A.

I would hope, but I do not remember, sir.

17

Q.

Would statements about being disloyal to America result in

18

the suspension of a security clearance for an intel analyst?

19

A.

Certainly an investigation, yes.

20

Q.

And why is that?

21

A.

Because having access to classified information and then

22

stating that you're disloyal to the country that, you know, holds the

23

classified information could be considered a security risk.

10839

14409

1

Q.

And as the NCOIC of the S-2 section, would you want an

2

analyst serving in your section if they had no loyalty to the

3

country?

4

A.

No, sir.

5

Q.

And why is that?

6

A.

Because they're a security risk.

7

Q.

Would you want them to have access to classified

8

information?

9

A.

No, sir.

10

Q.

And, again, why?

11

A.

Because they're a security risk, sir.

12

Q.

So if you had that information on a particular Soldier,

13
14

what would you do?
A.

In the case of 2008, I would have gone to Major Clausen,

15

because we were looking to deploying, and discussed it with him and

16

determined whether we should forward this information up the chain to

17

have him not deploy or possibly remove his security clearance or

18

something along those lines.

19

Q.

So if I -- if I'm understanding you correctly, if you're

20

aware of the issue you would do something to determine should we keep

21

the Soldier, keep the clearance, deploy him or not, is that correct?

22

A.

Could you rephrase, please?

23

10840

14410

1

Q.

Based upon what you just said, am I correct in

2

understanding you, that if you had this allegation or concern about a

3

particular Soldier you would have taken it to your supervisor, then

4

Major Clausen, I guess, is what you said?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And you would have made a decision at that point whether to

7

remove the Soldier's clearance, whether to keep the Soldier in the

8

Army, I guess, or deploy him, is that right?

9

A.

Well, it wasn't our decision exclusively, however, we would

10

have made the recommendation one way or the other in regard to any --

11

any number of possible solutions.

12
13

Q.

All right.

So have you ever had an allegation against one

of your analysts that they made disloyal comments, to your memory?

14

A.

Not that I recall, no, sir.

15

Q.

Would that be a significant thing for you?

16

A.

Yes -- yes, sir.

17

Q.

And would that be a significant thing in your field as an

18

intel analyst?

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

And can you explain to Colonel Lind why that would be

21

significant to you and significant in your field?

22

A.

Hello, ma’am.

23

MJ:

Hello.

10841

14411

1

A.

It would be significant because the Soldier would be --

2

would pose a security risk as well as possible -- you know, maybe he

3

would be unsuitable to serve in a combat zone, ma'am.

4
5

Q.

And would that person potentially be a unsuitable to be an

intel analyst?

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Now prior to his arrest in Iraq in May of 2010, did

8

Specialist Showman ever report to you that PFC Manning made

9

statements that indicated a lack of loyalty to the United States?

10

A.

I don't recall that she did.

11

Q.

And when you say you don't recall, are you saying you don't

12

remember or you don't believe that's true?

13

A.

I don't remember, sir.

14

Q.

Prior to his arrest in Iraq in May of 2010, did Specialist

15

Showman, then Specialist Showman, ever report to you that PFC Manning

16

made statements that indicated the America flag meant nothing to him?

17

A.

Again, I don't recall and I don't remember, sir.

18

Q.

Prior to his arrest in Iraq in May of 2010, did Specialist

19

Showman tell you that she believed that PFC Manning was a spy?

20

A.

I don't recall and I don't remember, sir.

21

Q.

Would -- well, actually before I ask this, can you tell me

22

right now, as you sit on the stand, why you think you don't recall

23

and don't remember that?

10842

14412

1

A.

I mean there -- there could have been any number of

2

reasons, but I have been diagnosed with memory loss.

3

-- could you repeat the timeframe that these statements were

4

allegedly made, sir, so I -- because I believe if I -- if I recall

5

correctly, as far as the timeframe, we were looking at either packing

6

out for deployment or something along those lines.

7

been that I was involved in other things.

8

directly why I would not recall nor remember why Specialist Showman

9

said those things, sir.

10

Q.

Okay.

First, I was unaware of any memory issues.

12

you have?
A.

So it may have

So I can't specify

So let me break your answer down just a little bit.

11

13

We were -- and

So what memory issues do

In 2004, I suffered from a fall while in Iraq. In 2005 and

14

2006 and probably earlier, I began to have short-term/long-term

15

memory loss as well as sort of like spaces where I would lose time.

16

I would get lost without being on post, and so I had a neuropsych

17

exam in 2006, which indicated -- I mean, she didn't have a baseline

18

by which to go, but indicated there may have been some sort of memory

19

loss or damage induced by my fall.

20

had another exam and that indicated that there was some deterioration

21

or lowering of my capabilities for memory from the 2006 tests, sir.

Then in 2009 or 2010, I think, I

22

Q.

And was any of this known by your command?

23

A.

Yes, sir.

10843

14413

1

Q.

And did -- did you feel, I guess, in the 2009 timeframe

2

when you were preparing to deploy if this impacted your ability to do

3

your duties?

4

A.

In 2006, I raised the concern to my chain of command, but I

5

was deemed fit to deploy in 2006 and deployed, and deployed again in

6

2009, 2010, sir.

7

Q.

Okay.

All right.

And then you also indicated because of

8

the deployment you were focused on that stuff and you might not

9

remember?

10

A.

That could have been reason as well, yes, sir.

11

Q.

Now, as a -- as a NCOIC, your 20 -- all your 21 years was

12

as an enlisted I take it, right?

13

A.

Yes, sir.

14

Q.

So when something significant happens, did you train your

15

Soldiers to document that in a counseling statement?

16

A.

Could you please rephrase?

17

Q.

Yeah.

If a -- if something significant happens, an

18

important issue, would you train your NCOs that that important issue

19

needs to be documented in some way, on writing, on paper?

20

A.

I mean, at some point, yes, of course.

21

Q.

Okay.

And I take it that if an analyst said they were

22

disloyal to America and the flag meant nothing to them, that -- would

23

that be a significant event in your mind?

10844

14414

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And would you instruct whoever saw that or heard that to

3

reduce that in writing in a counseling statement so there's some

4

paperwork to rely upon?

5

A.

Likely, yes.

6

Q.

And then, I guess, if that was done where you had something

7

that was written then I guess regardless of your memory we could look

8

at what was written three years later and we’d see what allegedly

9

happened?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

In this case, did you ever see a -- a written sworn

12

statement, or -- excuse me, a written counseling statement regarding

13

any alleged disloyal comments by my client?

14

A.

I don't recall having seen one, sir.

15

Q.

And when you say recall, again, is this you don't remember

16

or you don't believe that you've seen any paperwork that has it?

17

A.

I don't remember again, sir.

18

Q.

If no paperwork existed, what would that tell you as the

19

NCOIC regarding whether or not this happened?

20

A.

It wouldn't necessarily prove or disprove the event.

21

Q.

Right.

22

A.

It would -- it would be something that I would certainly, I

23

guess, encourage the supervisor to write up.

10845

But it wouldn't

14415

1

necessarily -- the absence of a counseling statement would not

2

necessarily lead me to believe that an event did not happen, simply

3

that, for whatever reason, it was not written in writing.

4

understand that the use of counseling statements, you know, which is

5

to record events and record the ability of the noncommissioned

6

officer, or whomever, to indicate how this might be corrected, but,

7

again, it doesn't necessarily indicate to me that the lack of a

8

counseling statement meant that an event did not occur.

9

Q.

Okay.

And I

And if -- and I think you said on -- earlier if --

10

if you were aware of something you would take it up through your

11

chain to Major Clausen.

12
13
14

A.

Is that the person you said at the time?

Depending on the -- what I thought would be the importance,

yes, sir.
Q.

Okay.

And if you took it to Major Clausen; like if you

15

actually raised the issue with him, would there be any sort of

16

documentation to support that that happened?

17

A.

Not necessarily.

I mean, I briefed Major Clausen or the S-

18

2 or whomever I dealt with on -- I mean, dealt with regularly on a

19

daily basis pertaining to all personnel issues, equipment issues,

20

management, deployment, deplorability, anything that a

21

noncommissioned officer in charge -- excuse me, normally deals with

22

and normally should keep -- should inform his OIC of, I spoke with

23

Major Clausen about.

I didn't have -- I didn't feel the need to

10846

14416

1

bring him counseling statements necessarily because it was just an

2

informal chat normally at the end of the day; this is what's

3

happening with this person, this is what's happening with this piece

4

of equipment; things along those lines.

5

briefing with Major Clausen or whomever, it was simply a discussion,

6

basically a very informal back brief from myself to the OIC.
Q.

7

So it wasn't a -- a formal

Yeah, and I think what I was asking, like, if you had a --

8

a major event where one of your analysts said something disloyal --

9

profess to have no loyalty to the country, and you were reporting

10

that to Major Clausen, so you believed that was a major event, would

11

there -- would that be captured in any way, shape, or form in

12

writing, documentation, or otherwise?

13

A.

I guess I'm not understanding the question.

14

Q.

I can repeat it.

So what I'm asking is, like, if -- let's

15

say Specialist Showman did come to you and said PFC Manning just said

16

he had no loyalty to the country, the flag means nothing to him, and

17

I believe he's a spy.

18

going to take it to Major Clausen and I’m going to report what was

19

just said, would there be any sort of documentation when you did

20

that?

21
22
23

A.

And then you said, okay, that's serious.

I'm

You mean would I have brought documentation to Major

Clausen?
Q.

Or would it be created once you talked to Major Clausen?

10847

14417

1

A.

I mean, it would be created normally by the supervisor.

2

And I would talk to Major Clausen independently.

3

that's the answer you're looking for, sir, but.

4
5

Q.
on this.

So I don't know if

I'm just wondering if there's some way we can see writing
Would a derog -- do you know what a derog is?

6

A.

Of course.

7

Q.

Would a derog be something that might -- well, actually,

8

first, before we go to that question -- your understanding, what's a

9

derog?

10

A.

Derogatory report would be any information that the

11

commander reports to -- okay -- hold on.

A derogatory report would

12

be anything that -- that we could use to present to the commander

13

that might affect the ability of a Soldier to be trusted with

14

classified information.

15

Q.

And if a commander files a derog, who does that go to?

16

A.

It goes eventually to a central clearance facility, I

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

believe.
Q.

And what -- why would it go there?

What is central

clearance facility?
A.

They are the -- they maintain records and can adjudicate

the access personnel have to classified information.
Q.

And when a commander files a derog -- have you ever seen

that happen before?

10848

14418

1

A.

Yes, sir.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

And when a commander files a derog, is that on any

sort of paperwork?

4

A.

Yes, sir.

5

Q.

And what type of activities or events might precipitate a

6

derog being filed?

7

A.

Any number.

I mean ----

8

Q.

Can you give us an example?

9

A.

Drug use, DUI, larceny, assault, spouse or child abuse.

10

mean, any criminal activity would be normal -- would normally

11

initiate the commander being notified that this might be an issue

12

that would affect a Soldier's ability to handle classified

13

information.

14

Q.

And let's just use one of your examples, a DUI.

How would

15

a DUI be something that would affect a Soldier's ability to handle

16

classified information?

17

A.

I

What a DUI essentially might show is that, for one, a

18

Soldier might lack discretion.

Two, alcohol abuse is normally -- may

19

cause activities that can have the Soldier blackmailed if he does

20

something stupid.

21

that certain rules apply to others but not to him, a lack of

22

judgment, a lack of maturity; something -- something like that.

It indicates that he might be -- he might believe

23

10849

14419

1

Q.

And I guess if a DUI or some of the other things you listed

2

could result in a derog, then would somebody saying I don't have

3

loyalty to the country, the American flag means nothing ----

4

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Objection, leading.

5

MJ:

Overruled.

6

Q.

So would somebody saying, I don't have loyalty to the

7

country and the American flag means nothing to me be something you

8

would expect a derog to be filed on?

9

A.

Normally, yes.

10

Q.

Why?

11

A.

Because it would indicate that the person making the

12
13
14

Yes, sir.

I would say yes.

statement could not be trusted with information that was classified.
Q.

And in this instance here with PFC Manning, are you aware

whether or not if any derog was filed against him?

15

A.

Could you, please, repeat or rephrase?

16

Q.

Yes.

17

Are you aware of any derog being filed against PFC

Manning -- and we'll go before the deployment?

18

A.

Oh, prior to the deployment?

19

Q.

Uh-hu.

20

A.

I am not aware.

21

Q.

Now, let's talk about the deployment.

22
23

Are you aware of a

derog being filed against now PFC Manning in the deployment?
A.

Yes, sir.

10850

14420

1

Q.

And I take it this was a derog filed after he was arrested?

2

A.

Yes, sir.

Well, I'm not 100 percent sure of the time.

I

3

don't recall whether the derog was initiated for the assault or

4

whether it was initiated because he was basically charged twice in a

5

relatively short span of time.

6

derogatory report -- excuse me -- was filed against PFC Manning in

7

response to the assault or in response to his arrest for disclosure.

So I don't recall whether the

8

Q.

In fact, was PFC Manning removed from the SCIF prior to his

9

arrest?

10

A.

Yes, sir.

11

Q.

And what was this in response to?

12

A.

It was in response to an assault, sir.

13

Q.

And when he was removed from the SCIF was his -- were --

14

are you aware whether or not action was taken to on suspend his

15

ability to get on a SIPR computer?

16

A.

I don't recall.

I know he was removed from the SCIF.

17

Again, I don't recall a 100 percent whether action was initiated to

18

affect his access at that time or whether it was initiated after he

19

left theater.

20

Q.

21
22

Okay.

During the deployment did you ever write any

memorandums for record to document the behavior of PFC Manning?
A.

Yes, sir.

23

10851

14421

Q.

1

And in a moment I'm going to talk to you about one of

2

those, but do you recall doing one of them in the December of 2009

3

timeframe?
A.

I'm trying to remember it was it 2008 or 2009?

6

Q.

I'll show it to you in a second.

7

A.

Okay.

8

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

4
5

9
10

I don't ---

-

I'm showing you what's been marked Defense

Exhibit XX for identification [handing the document to the witness].
Can you look at that?

11

WIT:

Yes, sir.

12

[The witness did as directed.]

13

Q.

And do you recognize that?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And can you tell Colonel Lind what that is?

16

A.

Ma'am, this was a memorandum for record I wrote in regard

17

to Specialist Manning which I presented to the -- I guess he was the

18

combat stress officer in relation to some behavioral issues that

19

Specialist Manning was exhibiting.

20

Q.

Now, when was this memorandum written?

21

A.

It says here 21 December 2009, sir.

22

Q.

Does that sound right to you?

23

A.

I mean, I'm just trying to remember the timeframe that we

10852

14422

1

deployed.

I just can't remember exactly -- I mean, honestly, if it

2

was 2008 or 2009, but ----

3

Q.

Would you normally date memorandums the correct date?

4

A.

Of course I would.

5

that's right, sir.

So -- sure.

I guess so.

I guess so.

I guess

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

And what's the subject line of the memorandum?

7

A.

Behavior of Specialist Bradley Manning, sir.

8

Q.

And do you reference activity of then, I guess, Specialist

9

Manning in the June and July timeframe of 2009?

10

A.

I do, yes, sir, in Paragraph Two.

11

Q.

And that behavior -- who was that behavior involving?

12
13

Who

was around at that time, do you recall?
A.

Myself, Specialist Showman, and -- I can't remember if he

14

was promoted or not at the time, and I guess here -- Specialist

15

Manning, sir.

16

Q.

So this was an incident that you documented that involved

17

you, Specialist Showman, and then either PFC or Specialist Manning,

18

right?

19

A.

Yes, sir, that's correct.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m retrieving what has been marked Defense

21

Exhibit XX for identification [retrieving the document from the

22

witness].

23

the exhibit [handing the document to the witness].

Actually before I do that, I’m handing the witness back

10853

14423

1

Q.

Anywhere in that exhibit do you see -- and you can look and

2

take your time, but do you see anything that references any sort of

3

disloyal comments made by PFC Manning or Specialist Manning to

4

Specialist Showman in -- in, I guess, maybe the July/August timeframe

5

of 2009?

6

[The witness reviewed the document.]

7

A.

I don't see anything that references that, sir.

8

Q.

And when you're documenting behaviors of PFC Manning for

9
10

behavioral health that might be of some concern, do you think you
would document that fact in this memorandum?

11

A.

The disloyal comments fact?

12

Q.

Yeah, if that happened.

13
14

Do you think that might be

something that you would document?
A.

I don't know if I would or not.

And the reason I might not

15

have was the subject line of the memorandum pertained to outbursts

16

rather than other comments.

17

record was to -- to capture events that I thought might be relevant

18

and might be helpful to a behavioral health professional when

19

treating a patient, sir.

20

Q.

Okay.

So the intent of this memorandum for

So with regards to if somebody said, I don't have

21

loyalty to the country, the flag means nothing to me, you wouldn’t

22

consider that to be potentially something that a behavioral health

23

specialist would want to know about the person's mental state?

10854

14424

1

A.

Maybe.

I just, again, what the -- the intent of the

2

memorandums for record was primarily to ensure that I was providing a

3

viewpoint from another perspective regarding what I thought were

4

behavioral health issues.

5

omitted that information unless I either did not recall having heard

6

it or I didn't consider it relevant to a behavioral health

7

specialist, sir.

8
9

Q.

And I can't say entirely why I would have

Is there one more possibility and that possibility being

that it didn't happen?

Is that possible?

10

A.

What didn't happen?

11

Q.

The statements.

12

A.

I mean -- I guess it could be possible, sir.

13

Q.

And I understand you're saying you don't remember

14

Specialist Showman coming to you.

15

improve if she came to you on more than one occasion with the same

16

complaint?

Do you think your memory would

17

A.

Maybe, sir.

I mean -- it's possible.

18

Q.

And do you -- well, I guess if you don't remember her

19

saying this to you, am I correct that you don't remember her coming

20

to you on multiple occasions?

21

A.

About that specific statement?

22
23

10855

No, I don't recall it.

14425

Q.

1

And you don't recall -- or do you recall ever addressing

2

any sort of loyal/disloyal statements regarding PFC Manning at any

3

time?

4

A.

Could you please rephrase or repeat.

5

Q.

Not a problem.

6

I'm sorry.

Do you -- at any time -- now we talked

about before the deployment or whatnot ----

7

A.

Yes, sir.

8

Q.

---- at any time do you recall addressing any sort of

9

disloyal statements by PFC Manning?

10

A.

Only after he was -- is this after he was arrested?

11

Q.

No.

12

A.

Well, then after he was arrested, whenever we initiated

13
14

At any time.

that -- at some point, we initiated a derog, but before that, no.
CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Retrieving Defense Exhibit XX for

15

identification from the witness [retrieving the document from the

16

witness], and offering Defense Exhibit XX for identification into

17

evidence [handing the document to the Military Judge].

18

MJ:

Any objection?

19

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: One moment, please, Your Honor.

20

[Pause]

21

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No, ma'am.

22

MJ:

23

CDC[MR. COOMBS]: No further questions.

All right.

Defense Exhibit XX is admitted.

10856

14426

1

MJ:

Redirect?

2

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma'am.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

3
4
5

Questions by the assistant trial counsel [CPT OVERGAARD]:
Q.

Cross just to clarify.

Mr. Adkins, you said that you --

6

you didn't remember Specialist Showman making the statement to you or

7

reporting it to Major Clausen, is that correct -- the disloyal

8

statement that she said PFC Manning told her?

9

A.

I do not remember, correct.

Yes, ma'am.

10

Q.

Would one of your past writings help refresh your memory?

11

A.

If it can, yes, ma'am.

12

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Retrieving Prosecution Exhibit 197, ma'am.

13

MJ:

14

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: It's a memorandum written by Mr. Adkins for

What is it?

15

an appeal of an administrative reduction, ma’am.

16

[The assistant trial Counsel retrieved the document from the court

17

reporter and handed it to the witness].

18
19

Q.

I know this is kind of hard to read, but can you read

Paragraph Three and then just let me know when you're done?

20

A.

[Reading from the document] First, the gover ----

21

Q.

Well, just -- just read it to yourself please?

22

A.

Sorry.

23

[The witness did as directed.]

10857

14427

1

Q.

Does that help refresh your memory?

2

A.

What I would say is that it does not refresh my memory of

3

that -- of a specific statement made my -- made by Specialist Showman

4

in regards to his comments.

5

- having reread it -- or having read it does not bring back a memory

6

of a statement of her having said it, ma'am.

7
8
9

Q.

But in this statement you wrote that -- and this statement

was on ---CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

10

MJ:

11

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

12

I see obviously that I wrote it, but I -

Objection, Your Honor.

Yes.
She's trying to refresh memory.

She now

needs to move on.

13

MJ:

You haven't refreshed his recollection.

14

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: Yes, ma’am.

15

MJ:

16

[Pause]

17

Q.

Do you remember preparing this statement?

18

A.

Yes, ma'am.

19

Q.

And when was that -- do you remember?

20

A.

It was, I believe, June of 2011, after my administrative

One moment?

Is there something else you'd like to do?

21

reduction board in which I was appealing the decision to reduce me

22

from master sergeant to sergeant first class.

23

10858

14428

1
2
3
4
5
6

Q.

And when you wrote this memorandum, was what you wrote in

here accurate?
A.

I signed it, so I must have read it.

So I must have

believed that it was accurate.
Q.

And this was -- you wrote this two years ago, is that

correct?

7

A.

Yes, ma'am.

8

Q.

So when you wrote the memo, your memory would have been

9
10

2011, correct.

probably better than it is now?
A.

Maybe.

I mean, I can't say for certain.

But -- because I

11

don't know if -- if time is -- necessarily affects my memory or not,

12

but that's something that -- that could be determined as yes.

13
14

Q.

Mr. Adkins, would you please just read paragraph three from

this document?

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

16

MJ:

17

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

Objection, Your Honor, foundation.

What's missing?
This -- the individual hasn't said that his

18

memory was fresh at the time, so recollection to report a foundation

19

hasn't been established.

20
21
22
23

MJ:

All right.

Do you want to continue on with the foundation?

I’ll sustain it.
Q.

You've agreed that two years ago was closer to when this

statement was actually made then today?

10859

14429

1

A.

Yes, ma'am.

2

Q.

And you would agree that you already said that this was

3
4
5
6
7
8

accurate?
A.

I would say that I signed it.

So when I read it, I must

have believed it to be accurate, yes.
Q.

So if you wrote something in this statement you would think

it's true, correct?
A.

This statement was composed by dictation, I believe, with

9

one of my lawyers, but when he completed the -- when he completed

10

writing the statement and printed it, I read it, and at the time

11

determined it to be accurate and signed it.

12

Q.

You'd agree that if you remembered something then that you

13

don't remember now, your memory would have been better about that

14

particular event at the time that you wrote it?

15

A.

Could you rephrase, please?

16

Q.

Yes.

If you wrote something in this statement that you

17

don't remember right now, would you agree that your memory must have

18

been better than it is right now?

19

A.

20

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: I'm handing the witness Prosecution ----

21

MJ:

22

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: ---- Exhibit 197 for identification [handing

23

It recalled the incident, yes -- yes, ma'am.

Yes [speaking to the defense]?

the document to the witness.]

10860

14430

1

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I’m just going to object based upon the

2

witness' testimony. I believe now this is a statement by his attorney

3

as opposed to him.

So we’d object to that.

4

MJ:

I'm overruling it.

5

Q.

Would you please just read out loud Number Three on your

6
7

Past recollection recorded.

Go ahead.

memorandum?
A.

Yes, ma'am.

[Reading from the document] First, the

8

government called Specialist Jihrleah Showman as a telephonic

9

witness.

Specialist Showman, immediate supervisor of PFC Manning for

10

a period in Iraq, properly testified and stated that I had

11

reservations about deploying PFC Manning into theater, and informed

12

the chain of command about my concerns.

13

correctly stated that I informed Major Clifford Clausen, Brigade S-2,

14

about PFC Manning's disloyal statements prior to deployment.

Specialist Showman also

15

Q.

All right.

16

A.

Yes, ma'am.

17

Q.

Retrieving Prosecution Exhibit 197 for identification

18

You can stop there.

[retrieving the document from the witness].

19

MJ:

20

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]:

21

Q.

22
23

What's the date of that statement?
23 June 2011.

Now you testified that you don't remember whether or not

there was a written counseling made at the time?
A.

That’s correct, yes, ma'am.

10861

14431

1
2

Q.

And it's that you don't remember, not that you don't know

that there -- whether or not there was one?

3

A.

I don't recall and I don't remember, I believe, yes, ma'am.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

And in the August 2009 time period, was that right

before you were deploying for your fourth time?

6

A. Yes, ma'am.

7

Q. And was that -- what were you doing during that time.

8

A.

9

Likely we were either uploading the equipment, inspecting

sensitive items -- CONEXs, moving equipment to the airfield -- I

10

don't know if we went on leave at the time, but that may have been

11

one of the things that we were looking at -- determining the order of

12

personnel deploying; who was going to fulfill what roles, who was

13

going to carry what equipment, who was going to bring with computers,

14

when certain personnel would be needed at which times in theater.

15

There were a lot of considerations that Major Clausen and I covered

16

prior to the deployment, ma'am.

17

Q.

You had a lot going on at the time?

18

A.

Yes, ma'am.

19

Q.

Was it -- was it a stressful time?

20

A.

Yes, ma'am.

21

Q.

What are some reasons that maybe something might not get --

22
23

get written into a counseling?
A.

One reason is that we had -- I mean, people were busy

10862

14432

1

preparing for deployment.

2

we normally -- or the printers that we actually used were packed.

3

may have been that it just slipped people's mind because everyone had

4

specific tasks which had to be accomplished in preparation in support

5

of the combat mission.

6

trumped, I guess, a counseling statement, or something entirely

7

different.

8
9

Q.

It could have been that the computers that
It

Anything along those -- those lines may have

I just don't recall.
You don't -- you don’t always do written counseling

statements, do you?

10

A.

Well, I mean -- myself as the NCOIC?

11

Q.

Yes.

12

A.

I would normally leave those tasks to the first-line

13

supervisor.

My counseling statements would normally go over my

14

section sergeants and things along those lines.

15

subordinate -- junior leaders would counsel their subordinates.

16

normally counsel my section NCOs.

17

disciplinary counseling statement would not be something which I

18

would normally compose when it concerned a junior Soldier who had a

19

first-line supervisor.
Q.

And Mr. Coombs talked about derogs.

21

A.

Yes, ma'am.

23

10863

I

So a normal behavioral or

20

22

So the junior -- the

14433

1

Q.

And you didn’t -- before the end of the deployment time

2

period, you didn't file a derog for any of PFC Manning's behavioral

3

issues?

4

A.

Yes, ma'am, that's correct.

5

Q.

And do you know why not?

6

A.

Could you please rephrase the question?

7

Q.

Sure.

Was there -- was there any reason that you didn't

8

feel it was necessary to file a derog before when a derog was

9

actually filed?

10

A.

I don't -- I’m not -- I don’t -- I don’t recall.

11

say for certain.

12

sorry.

13
14

Q.

Maybe I'm -- I’m tripping on the question.

I can't
I'm

Could you please try one more time?
Sure.

When you said that a derog -- you didn't remember a

derog being filed before the -- before about the May 2010 time

15

period?

16

A.

That's correct.

17

Q.

And with some of the other behavioral issues that you spoke

18

about, for example, in the memorandum that Mr. Coombs showed you ----

19

A.

Okay.

20

Q.

---- why wouldn't you have done a derog for that?

21

A.

Well, there was -- there were a couple of reasons.

One, I

22

needed -- we actually had a mission going on, so I did need Soldiers

23

to perform.

While we were concerned with some of Specialist

10864

14434

1

Manning's or PFC Manning's behavioral issues, we felt that we had in

2

placed measures to mitigate risk, keep him functional and effective,

3

while maintaining combat effectiveness in theater.

4

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: One moment.

5

WIT: Yes, ma'am.

6

ATC[CPT OVERGAARD]: No further questions, ma’am.

7

[Pause]
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

8
9
10
11

Questions by the civilian defense counsel [MR. COOMBS]:
Q.

Mr. Adkins, you gave several statements in this case,

correct?

12

A.

Sworn statements?

13

Q.

Yes.

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I'm showing you now what's been marked as

16

Defense Exhibit YY for identification [handing the document to the

17

witness]. Will you to look at that and tell me what that is?

18

[The witness did as directed.]

19

A.

It's a sworn statement I wrote on 10 June 2010, sir.

20

Q.

And do you remember why you wrote this sworn statement?

21

A.

It was in support of an initial investigation against PFC

22
23

Manning after his arrest, sir.
Q.

And whose -- whose handwriting is that statement in?

10865

14435

1

A.

It's mine, sir.

2

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

All right, I'm now showing you Defense

3

Exhibit ZZ for identification [handing the document to the witness].

4

Can you look at that?

5

[The witness did as directed.]

6

A.

Yes, sir.

7

Q.

Now what's that?

8

A.

It's a sworn statement I wrote on 3 July 2010, at FOB

9
10

Hammer, Iraq, in response to the investigation against PFC Manning,
sir.

11

Q.

Whose handwriting is that in?

12

A.

It's mine, sir.

13

Q.

Do you recall who -- was it CID that was asking these

14

questions?

15

A.

16

think it was.

17

I don't remember, sir.

I mean, it may have been -- I -- I

I don't -- I don’t remember exactly, sir.

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

I'm showing you now Defense Exhibit AAA for

18

identification [handing the document to the witness].

19

at that and tell me what that is?

20

[The witness did as directed.]

21

A.

Can you look

It's a sworn statement, 15 July 2010, and a question list

22

in regards to a 15-6 investigation written by a chief network

23

engineer for J-6, tactical operations, sir.

10866

14436

1

Q.

Now you ----

2

MJ:

I'm sorry, what was the date you said of the statement?

3

WIT: Ma'am, it was 15 July 2010.

4

MJ:

Thank you.

5

Q.

Now in any of these three statements, the one on June 10th

6

2010, July 3rd, 2010, or July 15th, 2010, do you reference any

7

disloyal statements allegedly made by PFC Manning?

8

A.

Can you give me a couple of minutes to check them out, sir?

9

Q.

Yeah, go -- take the time you need.

10

A.

Thanks.

11

[Pause while the witness reviewed the documents.]

12

WIT:

13

Q.

14

Could you please repeat the question, sir?
Yeah.

In any one of those statements do you reference

disloyal comments being allegedly made by PFC Manning?

15

A.

No, sir.

16

Q.

And, again, these -- these statements are June 10th, July

17

3rd, and July 15th of 2010?

18

[Pause]

19

A.

Yes, sir.

20

Q.

Were the events of what happened fresher in your mind at

21

the time that you wrote those statements in your own handwriting than

22

currently now on the stand?

23

10867

14437

1
2
3

A.
guess so.
Q.

I guess time-wise, yes.

I'm not -- time-wise, yes -- I

Yes, sir.
If at the time you had known about disloyal statements, do

4

you think that might be something you would include in a sworn

5

statement?

6

A.

Likely, yes, sir.

7

Q.

In -- in this instance why do you think it would be likely

8

when CID is asking you questions and investigating this case that you

9

would include that information if you knew it?

10

A.

Because it was pertinent, sir.

11

Q.

And the fact that those allegations are not present in

12

those statements, what does that tell you?

13

A.

It tells me that I didn't write them, sir.

14

Q.

Could it also possible tell you that it didn't happen?

15

A.

It tells me that when I wrote these statements I did not

16
17
18

recall nor remember those statements, sir.
Q.

And all of these statements are made before the statement

that the trial counsel shared with you on 22 June 2011, right?

19

A.

20

CDC[MR. COOMBS]:

21

document from the witness].

22

for identification [handing the document to the witness].

23

Yes, sir.
Let me retrieve that [retrieving the
I'm handing you Prosecution Exhibit 197

WIT: Yes, sir.

10868

14438

1

Q.

And that's not in your handwriting, is it?

2

A.

No, sir.

3

Q.

And I believe you said on cross that your attorney wrote

4

this for you?

5

A.

6
7

He was the one who was entering it onto the Word document,

yes, sir.
Q.

And what was this memorandum written -- I think you had

8

testified actually on cross that this was in response to the grade

9

reduction board?

10
11
12
13

A.

It was written as an appeal to the -- in response to my

reduction.
Q.

And at that point, I guess, the board had made the

selection -- had already made the determination to reduce you?

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

And if I'm understanding you correctly then, this was going

16

to the convening authority or the approval authority to say, don't

17

approve the board's recommendation?

18
19
20

A.

It was an appeal to dismiss the board's recommendation,

yes, sir.
Q.

And at the time that you wrote this, did you want to be

21

reduced in rank?

22

this for you, did you want to be reduced in rank?

23

A.

Or -- excuse me, at the time your attorney wrote

No, sir.

10869

14439

INSTRUCTIONS FOR PREPARING AND ARRANGING RECORD OF TRIAL
USE OF FORM - Use this form and MCM, 1984,
Appendix 14, will be used by the trial counsel and
the reporter as a guide to the preparation of the
record of trial in general and special court-martial
cases in which a verbatim record is prepared. Air
Force uses this form and departmental
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Army and Navy use DD Form 491 for records of
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which a summarized record is authorized.
Inapplicable words of the printed text will be
deleted.

8. Matters submitted by the accused pursuant to
Article 60 (MCM, 1984, RCM 1105).

COPIES - See MCM, 1984, RCM 1103(g). The
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when prepared pursuant to Article 34 or otherwise.

ARRANGEMENT - When forwarded to the
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counsel is responsible for arranging the record as
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1. Front cover and inside front cover (chronology
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15. Record of trial in the following order:
a. Errata sheet, if any.
b. Index sheet with reverse side containing
receipt of accused or defense counsel for copy of
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d. Authentication sheet, followed by certificate
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f. Exhibits admitted in evidence.

6. Court-martial orders promulgating the result of
trial as to each accused, in 10 copies when the
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g. Exhibits not received in evidence. The page
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DD FORM 490, MAY 2000

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